Are sorc dps pointless in PvP?

[Marlefox]

Recently cam back to my madness sorc and it seems like they are totally unviable in PvP. No DPS and no survivability. Is corruption the only sorc class that's viable now?

[-Bob-]

same marlfox from "Hey i'm MVP"?

[Icykill_]

Recently cam back to my madness sorc and it seems like they are totally unviable in PvP. No DPS and no survivability. Is corruption the only sorc class that's viable now?

 

Survivability is actually very good. I rarely die. Dps is down and could use a buff, but not that much. Lightning Sorc is actually in a much worse position and I would not suggest using either in ranked unless you are elite on the class.

But they are still very viable in objective pvp because you can play a utility role. My main class is Sorc and I still do very well in objective pvp, just don't try having a 1v1 and expect to kill them. That doesn't mean you won't "win" the outcome. It all depends on your definition of winning it. If you can get them to waste a heap if time trying to kill you or making them give up, then I consider that a win. Hence why I say they are a utility or support spec.

[mmmbuddah]

Survivability is actually very good. I rarely die. Dps is down and could use a buff, but not that much. Lightning Sorc is actually in a much worse position and I would not suggest using either in ranked unless you are elite on the class.

But they are still very viable in objective pvp because you can play a utility role. My main class is Sorc and I still do very well in objective pvp, just don't try having a 1v1 and expect to kill them. That doesn't mean you won't "win" the outcome. It all depends on your definition of winning it. If you can get them to waste a heap if time trying to kill you or making them give up, then I consider that a win. Hence why I say they are a utility or support spec.

 

Honestly, that is how it should be though. If a class has extremely high survivability it should not have extremely high dps. Which is why mercs are so ridiculous right now.

[Talon_strikes]

Sorc DPS is useless unless your name is Yolo Sorcerer

[verfallen]

Honestly, that is how it should be though. If a class has extremely high survivability it should not have extremely high dps. Which is why mercs are so ridiculous right now.

 

Its not so much as it can survive as it can get away. If someone knows how to pin you down (even without Enet) not much you can do however.

 

I'm of the opinon lightning is actually in a better place than madness in that regard. Certainly your ability to take damage while dishing it out is limited, but lightning has a better ability to sustain its dps on the move.

 

Fighting the average pvpers isn't a problem if you know your class. Fighting top tier people is where you see the failings, since they will heavily limit your kiting, giving you no choice to use your escapes. And they know how to come after you, unless you phasewalked into a total disengage.

 

In that regard, sorc and operative are in a similar place, altough both sorc dps spec have better offheal ability than operative, which require TA for their healing outside diagnostic scan and Kolto probe. Operative's ability to get away is better than yours tough, as nothing short of Enet can stop a rolling concealment operative.

 

So you can win, but its going to look a lot like hit and running if you have no healer support. And in a mode like arena, the effectiveness of that tactic is drastically reduced, especially in 4dps vs 4 dps matches, where the enemy will most likely call you their first focus, and come at you with an unwavering determination until you are dead.

 

They'll follow you to where you phasewalk, wait until your bubble is out to re-dps you, and since those defense prevent you from doing dps as well, you'll most likely die with very little dps, compared to any other class being focused.

Edited March 28, 2017 by verfallen

[Icykill_]

Honestly, that is how it should be though. If a class has extremely high survivability it should not have extremely high dps. Which is why mercs are so ridiculous right now.

 

I would forgo some of that survivability for some increased burst

[Icykill_]

Its not so much as it can survive as it can get away. If someone knows how to pin you down (even without Enet) not much you can do however.

 

I'm of the opinon lightning is actually in a better place than madness in that regard. Certainly your ability to take damage while dishing it out is limited, but lightning has a better ability to sustain its dps on the move.

 

Fighting the average pvpers isn't a problem if you know your class. Fighting top tier people is where you see the failings, since they will heavily limit your kiting, giving you no choice to use your escapes. And they know how to come after you, unless you phasewalked into a total disengage.

 

In that regard, sorc and operative are in a similar place, altough both sorc dps spec have better offheal ability than operative, which require TA for their healing outside diagnostic scan and Kolto probe. Operative's ability to get away is better than yours tough, as nothing short of Enet can stop a rolling concealment operative.

 

So you can win, but its going to look a lot like hit and running if you have no healer support. And in a mode like arena, the effectiveness of that tactic is drastically reduced, especially in 4dps vs 4 dps matches, where the enemy will most likely call you their first focus, and come at you with an unwavering determination until you are dead.

 

They'll follow you to where you phasewalk, wait until your bubble is out to re-dps you, and since those defense prevent you from doing dps as well, you'll most likely die with very little dps, compared to any other class being focused.

 

IMO, phase walk and bubble should not be used for "oh F" moments. That's when you know they will wait you out or follow you. Also putting phase walk in the same place each time or the same place everyone else does is pointless if they know where to go to get you.

When I use those two abilities it's in an offensive tactic or manoeuvre, hardly ever as a defensive one unless I need to hold a node for another 10 secs till back up arrives.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Icykill_

[verfallen]

I would forgo some of that survivability for some increased burst

 

As said, its "survivable" because it gets away and self-heals. Its not survivable as in dps under pressure like mercenaries. You can do damage, OR you can survive. In that optic and with that kind of defense, I don't think having the burst dps higher is a bad thing. Its the definition of a glass cannon.

 

Right now, the game's top dog are Steel Cannons in comparison. And sorc is a self-repairing slippery slingshot

[verfallen]

IMO, phase walk and bubble should not be used for "oh F" moments. That's when you know they will wait you out or follow you. Also putting phase walk in the same place each time or the same place everyone else does is pointless if they know where to go to get you.

When I use those two abilities it's in an offensive tactic or manoeuvre, hardly ever as a defensive one unless I need to hold a node for another 10 secs till back up arrives.

 

In regs, its a lot more efficient than in the more limited arenas.

 

You start closer, in some maps you have very few places that are efficient to put your phasewalk to, and people know about them. They cal also just click your name at any time and get a lock on you.

 

If your team is aggressive from the get go and engage the other team in "their half" of the map, you have better options, but if they choose to be defensive, you cannot really do a sorc charge, and you have very limited options.

 

The using force barrier offensively is ********, since the thing has close to 0 offensive capabilities, the most it has is a force speed cooldown reset when lightning, which gives you 2 instant alacrity boosted lightning bolts, and its not worth the cooldown and lost of one of your best defensives. The extra kiting is also lost since the time to stand still cast it and get going again you have not travelled very far compared to not using it at all.

 

An operative or sin can use their stealth offensively as a gap closer, an extra spike, an extra stealthed backstab/lethal strike, recklessness cooldown reset.

 

For sorc, its an immunity to force people to stand idle, delay, get healed by your healers if any are present. Its purely defensive. If as a defensive in regs it will truly not change the outcome, keep it for another fight I'd say. In arenas, it gives your team some time to peel off you, finish YOUR focus target, or in the target switch, not all 4 players of the other team will switch to the same player or come back to you at the same time, giving you a few extra seconds of dps after bubble goes down.

 

Personnaly, I always set a sorc as focus target with a cast bar, so I see exactly when your barrier drop, and I'm back on them the very second it does. If you have 3 other like me, ya it was useless. But you tried.

[Icykill_]

In regs, its a lot more efficient than in the more limited arenas.

 

You start closer, in some maps you have very few places that are efficient to put your phasewalk to, and people know about them. They cal also just click your name at any time and get a lock on you.

 

If your team is aggressive from the get go and engage the other team in "their half" of the map, you have better options, but if they choose to be defensive, you cannot really do a sorc charge, and you have very limited options.

 

The using force barrier offensively is ********, since the thing has close to 0 offensive capabilities, the most it has is a force speed cooldown reset when lightning, which gives you 2 instant alacrity boosted lightning bolts, and its not worth the cooldown and lost of one of your best defensives. The extra kiting is also lost since the time to stand still cast it and get going again you have not travelled very far compared to not using it at all.

 

An operative or sin can use their stealth offensively as a gap closer, an extra spike, an extra stealthed backstab/lethal strike, recklessness cooldown reset.

 

For sorc, its an immunity to force people to stand idle, delay, get healed by your healers if any are present. Its purely defensive. If as a defensive in regs it will truly not change the outcome, keep it for another fight I'd say. In arenas, it gives your team some time to peel off you, finish YOUR focus target, or in the target switch, not all 4 players of the other team will switch to the same player or come back to you at the same time, giving you a few extra seconds of dps after bubble goes down.

 

Personnaly, I always set a sorc as focus target with a cast bar, so I see exactly when your barrier drop, and I'm back on them the very second it does. If you have 3 other like me, ya it was useless. But you tried.

 

You nearly have to be a masochist to try running a lightning Sorc in ranked at the moment. So I'm basing these comments on objective pvp. Being predictable on a Sorc by putting phase walk where everyone else does is just plain stupid.

 

I can tell you using FB offensively is possible, I'm just not going to give away how I use Force Bubble offensively, that's my own tactic and it works very well because it's not expected. Also the term offensively is also relative, it doesn't always mean inflicting damage. If it allows me to manipulate a specific response from the enemy in a way that provides a tactical advantage, then its offensive. If I just pop it defensively because I'm being smashed, then I'm reacting to them and I lose all tactical advantage. In those sistuations it's just an oh F ability to give 10 secs more life till they kill me. Which would relegate it to a completely wasted ability and a stupid DCD unless you choose the healing utility to go with it and I never do. I've got better ways to use it.

 

So I don't have to get into a big debate on my tactics, I think these quotes sum up the way I play my Sorc

 

“The whole secret lies in confusing the enemy, so that he cannot fathom our real intent.”.."mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy”.."Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

[mmmbuddah]

I would forgo some of that survivability for some increased burst

 

That is exactly how it should be. Or have a medium amount of both! But that seems to be outside of BWs realm of understanding xD

[Zarukka]

I can tell you using FB offensively is possible, I'm just not going to give away how I use Force Bubble offensively, that's my own tactic and it works very well because it's not expected.

>Sorc is at 100% HP

>Sorc uses Force Barrier

I mean sure, it's unexpected. It's unexpected in the same way that a marauder leaping to a lone healer in a hypergate then using Undying Rage, Saber Ward, Cloak of Pain, Force Camofluage and Mad Dash all at once is.

Unless you mean using it as a second breaker when you don't have to worry about survival or using it for interrupt immunity on lift, that's pretty entertaining.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Zarukka

[Icykill_]

>Sorc is at 100% HP

>Sorc uses Force Barrier

I mean sure, it's unexpected. It's unexpected in the same way that a marauder leaping to a lone healer in a hypergate then using Undying Rage, Saber Ward, Cloak of Pain, Force Camofluage and Mad Dash all at once is.

 

That's like saying what if it looks like a 🦆 and quacks like a 🦆.. but it's really a 🦄 farting 🌈

[Icykill_]

That is exactly how it should be. Or have a medium amount of both! But that seems to be outside of BWs realm of understanding xD

 

It can get pretty frustrating knowing that I'm not going to die, but I can't kill the other guy either. I'd happily lose force bubble in exchange for similar burst output that other burst classes have. I'd even forgo phase walk as well to get a significantly higher burst boost. It would be so nice to be able to burst 30k, like most other burst specs can, instead of 15k.

[Qwurdilu]

It can get pretty frustrating knowing that I'm not going to die, but I can't kill the other guy either. I'd happily lose force bubble in exchange for similar burst output that other burst classes have. I'd even forgo phase walk as well to get a significantly higher burst boost. It would be so nice to be able to burst 30k, like most other burst specs can, instead of 15k.

 

please stop filling this forum with your wicked idea of pvp. I dont even know if youre reffering to lvl 70pvp, but certainly not to pvp on educated level.

Sorc doesnt have a damage problem. If you cant get kills while not dieing, youre doing it wrong. Sorc has among the highest dps potential on both speccs, and on lightning it even has tier1 burst potential.

The only real downside both speccs have is when beeing attacked your dps drops way too hard. This wont be any better if you sacrifce more defensives for offensive. Quite the contrary, sorc needs better defensives to be able to use its current damage potential.

 

 

What sorc really needs is protection against beeing tunneled, especially by multiple targets. One melee can shut a sorc completely down, thats the real problem. A good example is current merc. Its damage wasnt buffed with 5.0, but they can deal WAY more damage since 5.0 because they can play much more offensively. Note that i dont suggest to buff sorc defensives to merc level, i just wanted to clarify that sorcs problem is defense, and definately not offense

Edited March 28, 2017 by Qwurdilu

[Dewlmenow]

please stop filling this forum with your wicked idea of pvp. I dont even know if youre reffering to lvl 70pvp, but certainly not to pvp on educated level.

Sorc doesnt have a damage problem. If you cant get kills while not dieing, youre doing it wrong. Sorc has among the highest dps potential on both speccs, and on lightning it even has tier1 burst potential.

The only real downside both speccs have is when beeing attacked your dps drops way too hard. This wont be any better if you sacrifce more defensives for offensive. Quite the contrary, sorc needs better defensives to be able to use its current damage potential.

 

 

What sorc really needs is protection against beeing tunneled, especially by multiple targets. One melee can shut a sorc completely down, thats the real problem. A good example is current merc. Its damage wasnt buffed with 5.0, but they can deal WAY more damage since 5.0 because they can play much more offensively. Note that i dont suggest to buff sorc defensives to merc level, i just wanted to clarify that sorcs problem is defense, and definately not offense

 

Not sure if trolling or just flat out wrong. Sorcs objectively do the worst damage outside of maybe pyrotech if you ignore fluff damage that only boosts opposing team's healing numbers. This is from my experience (and just about anybody else's) but in case you need data: https:// http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112

 

Sorcs honestly haven't done good damage since the early 3.0 days with force storm before the mega nerf. In recent past expansions their survivability was insane in comparison to other dps classes, but they have had a single target damage issue for 3 expansions running.

[Qwurdilu]

Not sure if trolling or just flat out wrong. Sorcs objectively do the worst damage outside of maybe pyrotech if you ignore fluff damage that only boosts opposing team's healing numbers. This is from my experience (and just about anybody else's) but in case you need data: https:// http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112

 

Sorcs honestly haven't done good damage since the early 3.0 days with force storm before the mega nerf. In recent past expansions their survivability was insane in comparison to other dps classes, but they have had a single target damage issue for 3 expansions running.

 

Problem with that data is that its theory crafted and does not include severall mechanics and are therefore not entirely correct. Also you should never use bants numbers in reference for pvp, because its comparing apples to bananas

I just uploaded a parse i had with a pug a week ago, so you can see that sage can easily compete with other dps in real life conditions: http://parsely.io/parser/operations/dashroode/8/HM/dps/all/all/all/live/1/

 

As for fluff damage, i agree to a certain amount, however once you go above 7k dps, it isnt just fluff, its heavy pressure for the enemy team.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Qwurdilu

[verfallen]

Not sure if trolling or just flat out wrong. Sorcs objectively do the worst damage outside of maybe pyrotech if you ignore fluff damage that only boosts opposing team's healing numbers. This is from my experience (and just about anybody else's) but in case you need data: https:// http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112

 

Sorcs honestly haven't done good damage since the early 3.0 days with force storm before the mega nerf. In recent past expansions their survivability was insane in comparison to other dps classes, but they have had a single target damage issue for 3 expansions running.

 

PvE damage is under the requirement, but PvP is a different beast. While it could use a slight bump up burst wise, its not so bad. Madness definitely needs a big bump up tough.

 

But PvP lightning isnt that bad, so long as no one is preventing you from freecasting. Sometimes, its rather impressive the pressure you can apply to someone especially with polarity shift, which is one of the best offensive cooldown in the game, especially for lightning, boosting both alacrity and numerous procs. Its somewhat impressive when you fight a good lightning sorc the sudden ammount of damage going into you, and being all force, there is relatively less cooldowns mitigating it in the game, something that isnt a factor in pve ops.

 

Sorc are also a class that totally forgo accuracy in pve, and can pile up extra crit or power instead, which help shorten the difference you see in pve.

 

Tbh I played mine in 5.0 for the first time last month, when the cxp bonus started, and I gotta say its the class I'm enjoying pvp the most on. I cannot take on 2vs1 like my assassin does (or 3vs1 like a merc, but thats a merc) but you can reach some pretty impressive numbers. Of course some of it is aoe from Chain lightning, but not significantly so.

 

The real issue, pvp wise is arena. Its simply is not friendly for sorc right now.

[verfallen]

Problem with that data is that its theory crafted and does not include severall mechanics and are therefore not entirely correct. Also you should never use bants numbers in reference for pvp, because its comparing apples to bananas

I just uploaded a parse i had with a pug a week ago, so you can see that sage can easily compete with other dps in real life conditions: http://parsely.io/parser/operations/dashroode/8/HM/dps/all/all/all/live/1/

 

As for fluff damage, i agree to a certain amount, however once you go above 7k dps, it isnt just fluff, its heavy pressure for the enemy team.

 

You are using the TK wave bug tough.

 

Very easy to spot. Nice, but bugged

[Qwurdilu]

You are using the TK wave bug tough.

 

Very easy to spot. Nice, but bugged

 

sure, you have to use everything you can to get that high

[verfallen]

sure, you have to use everything you can to get that high

 

This is fairly minor tough, I actually use that one, and its something that absolutely everyone has.

 

TK wave needs to be bugged out to work that way. And for some reason, it seems to bug more often on sage than sorc for me. Had multiple time while leveling a sage in DvL where suddenly, bam instant TK wave.

 

Still, it changes the potential dps of the spec significantly, so it shouldn't be used to argue general damage imo, just like we discarded the bugged deception sin/infiltration shadow at start of 5.0.

 

The instant cast buff is something all class that have cast turned into instant by a proc share right now.

[Qwurdilu]

This is fairly minor tough

 

Actually, speccing into surging speed and using it on cd does increase my pupetparse by about 500dps, thats definately not minor and is about as much as the instant, and definately way more than merc or sniper can get out of this "feature". Its even more in reallife situations hence subversion talent.

In addition, lightning barrier/telekinetic defense is useful in most fights as its a precast usable every downtime which also isnt mentionend anywhere in bants numbers.

 

However, my point is that sorc isnt the dps farming killing blows, its role is lying heavy aoe pressure, and its very good in both speccs in that when freecasting, even if you dont use the things described above. Madness sorc is super good for melting tanks, and its dotspread is a pressure machine, enabling your burst dps buddies to get fast kills.

Sorc only struggles whenever he gets attacked, and things go superbad when constantly attacked=tunneled.

Beeing attacked as a sorc equals your dps will lose at least 1/3, more likely 1/2. No other class suffers so much from focus. Thats where adjustments needs to be made. Sure single target dps might be buffed for pve, but pvp is a whole other story. A freecasting sorc will singlehandly annihilate the enemy team.

 

What sorc really needs is protection against beeing tunneled, so he can use more of its existing potential. Btw. the same was true for mercs prior 5.0. They didnt changed dmg. values or anything for merc with 5.0. All they did was buffing its defensives so merc could use more of its offensive powers instead of hugging corners and breaking LOS.

Ofc i dont vote to change sorcs into mercs 2.0, but dps sorc definately needs some of defensive buff against beeing tunneled.

[Purgamentorum]

Change the title to something more correct.

 

Do sorc healers make pvp pointless?

[verfallen]

Actually, speccing into surging speed and using it on cd does increase my pupetparse by about 500dps, thats definately not minor and is about as much as the instant, and definately way more than merc or sniper can get out of this "feature". Its even more in reallife situations hence subversion talent.

In addition, lightning barrier/telekinetic defense is useful in most fights as its a precast usable every downtime which also isnt mentionend anywhere in bants numbers.

 

However, my point is that sorc isnt the dps farming killing blows, its role is lying heavy aoe pressure, and its very good in both speccs in that when freecasting, even if you dont use the things described above. Madness sorc is super good for melting tanks, and its dotspread is a pressure machine, enabling your burst dps buddies to get fast kills.

Sorc only struggles whenever he gets attacked, and things go superbad when constantly attacked=tunneled.

Beeing attacked as a sorc equals your dps will lose at least 1/3, more likely 1/2. No other class suffers so much from focus. Thats where adjustments needs to be made. Sure single target dps might be buffed for pve, but pvp is a whole other story. A freecasting sorc will singlehandly annihilate the enemy team.

 

What sorc really needs is protection against beeing tunneled, so he can use more of its existing potential. Btw. the same was true for mercs prior 5.0. They didnt changed dmg. values or anything for merc with 5.0. All they did was buffing its defensives so merc could use more of its offensive powers instead of hugging corners and breaking LOS.

Ofc i dont vote to change sorcs into mercs 2.0, but dps sorc definately needs some of defensive buff against beeing tunneled.

 

Don't think my parses increased by nearly as much, but they did increase a bit for sure with force speed on cooldown. roughly you can squeeze one extra LB every 15 seconds, vs every 20 seconds. Drawback is I'm getting used to aggressively using force speed, which can be bad in some ops fight or pvp.

 

Still, I agree with you on the "dps drop when focused", and I ate some bad flack for saying sorc needed a change to the way utilites are built, some should be in the dps trees, to allow dps more of them, and healers less of them and doing 2 birds with one stone. All of sorc dps current defenses are best suited for healers.

 

Sadly for saying "sorc needs more defense under pressure" I kinda attracted the herd of people who wake up at night to hate sorc healer and make 0 difference between specs, and the thread derailed.

 

Brainstorming ideas on a pvp forum is apparently a bad thing, who'd have thought :rolleyes:

Edited March 29, 2017 by verfallen