Quinn and Kaliyo

[Xilizhra]

Him taking that oath to you, was part of his job as Baras' spy. Basically it was akin to having his fingers crossed behind his back

 

Spies do what they're told to do (Baras, a Darth of the Sith Empire), that's part of the job.

 

Yes, that includes betraying people, even the ones they get close to, which is sometimes also part of the job.

Spies also get killed when they're caught.

[SithKoriandr]

Spies also get killed when they're caught.

 

True. Want to kill the spy, kill the spy. The point was merely, he was never really a traitor. He was always a spy on Baras side, even if he really didn't want to be.

[nicholestar]

I reckon there are a few reasons why people are more upset about Quinn than Kaliyo for their betrayals. But honestly I think the biggest reason is that, at least back in the day before companion conversations just unlocked at specific levels, I'd be willing to bet there were quite a few agent players who never even SAW that cutscene with Kaliyo because they weren't bothering to raise her affection enough, whereas Quinn's betrayal is a part of the class storyline, so every Sith Warrior who made it through the class story got to experience his.

 

Throw in RP mentalities for playing as a powerful Sith lord (and at that point the Emperor's Wrath) who is used to most NPCs, especially non-force sensitive ones, scrambling over each other to lick their boots vs an Imperial Agent who could very well be hacked off with the Empire themselves at that point for brainwashing them for the whole Jadus situation and who, consequently, may ALSO end their story as a traitor if they choose to defect to the Republic.

 

And finally, essentially the entirety of Kaliyo's companion conversations (aside from possibly her romance, not sure about that never tried it) are neon signs screaming "THIS PERSON HAS NO PROBLEMS BETRAYING ANYBODY IF IT SUITS HER NEEDS." Hell, Kaliyo goes to rescue a friend solely so that she could sell them to a bounty hunter for the bounty on their head. So when she does finally betray the agent, its probably more disappointing than shocking. Whereas a large part of Quinn's character is specifically his loyalty and how strong it is, so while it may be understandable in hindsight, its quite shocking when it happens.

[Mubrak]

So when she does finally betray the agent, its probably more disappointing than shocking

 

But in the end she sides with the agent when it matters and turns against her old patron when she has nothing to gain from it, while Quinn pulls off his betrayal, and only when bested swears his undying allegiance to the warrior.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Mubrak

[SithKoriandr]

But in the end she sides with the agent when it matters and turns against her old patron when she has nothing to gain from it, while Quinn pulls off his betrayal, and only when bested swears his undying allegiance to the warrior.

 

At that point, he could do so while keeping his code. Before he had kept his word as loyal to Baras. Now that he had been bested by the Warrior, it was death or swear loyalty to the one who could kill him.

[Limariko]

I reckon there are a few reasons why people are more upset about Quinn than Kaliyo for their betrayals. But honestly I think the biggest reason is that, at least back in the day before companion conversations just unlocked at specific levels, I'd be willing to bet there were quite a few agent players who never even SAW that cutscene with Kaliyo because they weren't bothering to raise her affection enough, whereas Quinn's betrayal is a part of the class storyline, so every Sith Warrior who made it through the class story got to experience his.

 

Another factor into the upset is before the companion revamping, it was very possible (and common) for the Warrior romancing Quinn to already be married to him by the time the betrayal happens which was an additional kick to the **** of it also being a spouse doing this and the dialog options available during the betrayal being rather lackluster in showing any deep turmoil from Quinn at making the choice he did.

 

As much as I know it'll never happen, it really would be nice if they could go back and rework some of the dialogs with companions to fit better.

[nicholestar]

Another factor into the upset is before the companion revamping, it was very possible (and common) for the Warrior romancing Quinn to already be married to him by the time the betrayal happens which was an additional kick to the **** of it also being a spouse doing this and the dialog options available during the betrayal being rather lackluster in showing any deep turmoil from Quinn at making the choice he did.

 

As much as I know it'll never happen, it really would be nice if they could go back and rework some of the dialogs with companions to fit better.

 

True enough, but can't the same be said for Kaliyo, or does she propose after the betrayal? If that's the case, then it's not quite the same as a spouse, but it is still somebody you're dating who decides to sell you out.

 

I agree completely about the dialogue issues/wanting a rework, though as you said, it'll never happen

[grania]

I'm just trying to understand why someone who is entirely untrustworthy is somehow more forgivable that someone who slipped up once

[RarePorcupine]

I'm just trying to understand why someone who is entirely untrustworthy is somehow more forgivable that someone who slipped up once

 

I doubt too many people actually forgive Kaliyo - it's just her betrayal is less personal (i.e. giving information to some random former comrades versus betraying you for the man who tried to have you killed and who is now your arch enemy) and I think more "acceptable" (for lack of a better term) given her previous characterization, so it makes sense that Quinn's betrayal became the more visible one.

 

Plus - from my experiences with the fandom, I also think that most people don't particularly like or care about Kaliyo all that much either, so while they might get annoyed they're also less passionate about it. I also suspect the different sizes/activity of each character's fanbases factors in - there's not really a meaningful Kaliyo fandom keeping her visible or to possibly rub someone the wrong way.

Edited March 18, 2017 by RarePorcupine

[grania]

I doubt too many people actually forgive Kaliyo - it's just her betrayal is less personal (i.e. giving information to some random former comrades versus betraying you for the man who tried to have you killed and who is now your arch enemy) and I think more "acceptable" (for lack of a better term) given her previous characterization, so it makes sense that Quinn's betrayal became the more visible one.

 

Plus - from my experiences with the fandom, I also think that most people don't particularly like or care about Kaliyo all that much either, so while they might get annoyed they're also less passionate about it. I also suspect the different sizes/activity of each character's fanbases factors in - there's not really a meaningful Kaliyo fandom keeping her visible or to possibly rub someone the wrong way.

 

All really good points. Who cares what Kaliyo does, really? I'd call that a point in Quinn's favor at least.

Edited March 18, 2017 by grania

[Raphael_diSanto]

True. Want to kill the spy, kill the spy. The point was merely, he was never really a traitor. He was always a spy on Baras side, even if he really didn't want to be.

 

It doesn't matter whether he was a traitor or not. He tried to have my warrior killed. Kaliyo never tried to have my agent killed.

 

I think that's a pretty big difference, right there. If Kaliyo had shown up with a bunch of droids and said "Keeper's told me to assassinate you," I'm pretty sure I'd want to kill her, too.

 

My smuggler killed Syreena, after all.

 

Kaliyo is selfish and greedy and shortsighted and trigger happy and a whole lot of other things. But not once has she actually tried to kill my agent or intentionally have him killed.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Raphael_diSanto

[CloudCastle]

It doesn't matter whether he was a traitor or not. He tried to have my warrior killed. Kaliyo never tried to have my agent killed.

 

I think that's a pretty big difference, right there. If Kaliyo had shown up with a bunch of droids and said "Keeper's told me to assassinate you," I'm pretty sure I'd want to kill her, too.

 

My smuggler killed Syreena, after all.

 

Kaliyo is selfish and greedy and shortsighted and trigger happy and a whole lot of other things. But not once has she actually tried to kill my agent or intentionally have him killed.

 

Are we sure? I can't recall all the details but I could have sworn that once my agent showed up to the rendezvous point, that anarchist guy was quite intent on harvesting my organs or something of that nature. And he seemed to think that Kaliyo had brought me there for just that. Sure, Kaliyo said that she didn't mean for it to go that far, but for all we know she knew full well and simply changed her mind later or chickened out on going through with it.

 

Maybe someone who's done her ending quests more recently than I have can fill me in on how that scene played out exactly, since my memory of it is a bit sketchy.

Edited March 19, 2017 by CloudCastle

[grania]

Are we sure? I can't recall all the details but I could have sworn that once my agent showed up to the rendezvous point, that anarchist guy was quite intent on harvesting my organs or something of that nature. And he seemed to think that Kaliyo had brought me there for just that. Sure, Kaliyo said that she didn't mean for it to go that far, but for all we know she knew full well and simply changed her mind later or chickened out on going through with it.

 

Maybe someone who's done her ending quests more recently than I have can fill me in on how that scene played out exactly, since my memory of it is a bit sketchy.

 

It's not really clear. The guy seems sure that's what Kaliyo is there for, and Kaliyo is just like nuh uh. Honestly it doesn't even make a lot of sense, and I'm not sure just what the intent was supposed to be. Maybe there's more if you're romancing her? Maybe there's extra lines of dialogue missing for me when I do that mission?

 

Her chickening out is the most logical conclusion.

[Damask_Rose]

It's not really clear. The guy seems sure that's what Kaliyo is there for, and Kaliyo is just like nuh uh. Honestly it doesn't even make a lot of sense, and I'm not sure just what the intent was supposed to be. Maybe there's more if you're romancing her? Maybe there's extra lines of dialogue missing for me when I do that mission?

 

Her chickening out is the most logical conclusion.

 

If you go back and watch videos of her conversations just prior to meeting her business partner it is quite clear she lured the agent there on purpose. It was a trap and she sprung it. We don't know how she and Wheezer were planning on using you, just that harvesting your organs wasn't part of the deal. Given that the group she hangs with likes to blow up airports where hundreds of innocent people will be killed, I can't imagine it would be anything short of torturing you for information.

 

Since she was milking you like a cash cow since she met you and showed no remorse for her greed nearly getting you killed, I find her to be far worse than Quinn who was forced to attack you by one of the most dangerous sith in the Empire and who deeply regretted it afterwards. I'd rather have a good man who made a bad choice by my side than a sociopath who will kill you the second you aren't fun or profitable anymore.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Damask_Rose

[Raphael_diSanto]

I notice that most of the arguments that support Quinn revolve around "He's a good man who was was forced to do a bad thing by Baras", and likewise, the anti-Kaliyo arguments are "No one forced her to betray the Agent, she's a backstabbing sociopath by nature"

 

I certainly can't deny that those two statements hold water and on the face of it, that would put the blame for Quinn squarely at the feet of Baras, whereas Kaliyo has no one to blame but herself.

 

That said, I also think that the other side's arguments, which tend to be "I trusted Quinn and he tried to kill me" vs "I never trusted Kaliyo anyway" also play a large part in people's individual reactions to the two events.

 

grania is correct in that it's really not clear what Kaliyo's original intent was.

 

However, I -personally- like to believe that she thought she might bring the Agent onto their side, and feed Empire secrets to her criminal associates. That's the only reason I can see that she'd even bother bringing the Agent to the meet. Obviously depending on the Agent in question, you can say that this is either massively unrealistic on Kaliyo's part, or she wasn't far off the mark, and it's plot railroading that prevents the Agent from becoming a traitor. The game's plot point analysis engine isn't sophisticated to know whether or not your Agent would actually betray the Empire, so that scene happens, regardless.

 

Unfortunately my Kaliyo-mancer was my first character at launch, so there's absolutely no way at all that I can remember whether or not there was a specific line of dialogue that mentioned the romance. That was just too long ago, haha.

 

Oh, and I think (male) Smuggler's reaction to Syreena does go some way to offsetting the "Kaliyo gets a pass because she's female" argument. Obviously it's not a direct comparison, Syreena isn't a companion, etc etc. But as a player, I've got no qualms about killing NPCs that act against my characters, if allowed to by the mechanics, regardless of their gender.

 

I also think that people don't understand why people like Quinn, the same way that people can't understand why others would want to romance Vaylin. Not to get all gender-biased here, but I think there -is- a definite gender split here, and it's marked by bafflement on both sides.

 

Men look at Quinn and then look at the female players who romance him and ask in bafflement "Really? That's actually what you want in a guy?"

 

And women look at Kaliyo (or Vaylin) and ask in the same bafflement "Really? That's the kind of woman you want?"

 

Attraction is a funny thing, folks, LOL

Edited March 19, 2017 by Raphael_diSanto

[nicholestar]

Just watched a video from someone who romanced her, and (at least with the options this player chose) there is no mention of them being in a relationship on Hutta, not even if you ask her why she picked sides after killing Wheezer (she just says she killed him because he promised to keep their deal a secret and then revealed it to the agent, and that if the agent was the one who lied, he'd be the one dead).

 

She started the conversation on the ship telling the agent that he was gonna have to handle life without her for a bit while she "wrapped up some personal things" and basically only brought the agent along because Lokin revealed what she'd been doing. Once Lokin reveals that Kaliyo has been communicating with the anarchist group just prior to leaving for Hutta, the conversation essentially ended with:

 

"Why didn't you say anything?" "The Wheezer was good to me so I thought I'd lend a hand. I didn't want to get anyone killed; I wanted to protect you. If you don't trust me, come back with me and watch my back. We'll buy him off somehow. Might even survive that way." Then she sets up the meet and off you go.

 

Whether that's an obvious trap setup or not is up to you I suppose.

[RarePorcupine]

Since she was milking you like a cash cow since she met you and showed no remorse for her greed nearly getting you killed, I find her to be far worse than Quinn who was forced to attack you by one of the most dangerous sith in the Empire and who deeply regretted it afterwards. I'd rather have a good man who made a bad choice by my side than a sociopath who will kill you the second you aren't fun or profitable anymore.

 

Eh, I think this is a somewhat charitable perspective on Quinn's betrayal.

 

He certainly felt bad about doing it, but the extent to which he did is pretty unclear and I don't really get the impression he was forced to beyond feeling some conflict about orders he received from a Sith he genuinely did believe in to some extent (Baras). Quinn will criticize a LS Sith Warrior for not having the Empire's best interest at heart, for example, and say he views killing you as necessary in order to ensure the Empire's interests are best served, and there's no real sign that he has a sudden epiphany about a LS warrior's methods after the attempted betrayal.

 

Sure, he doesn't have his conflicting loyalties to Baras any more, but disagreement with the warrior's morality and actions means the conflict hasn't actually been resolved. While Quinn is a dutiful/"honorable" soldier of the Empire [i disagree that he's a "good man" - morality isn't what drives him, duty to the Empire is], that still means he's going to have issues with a merciful/diplomatic Sith Warrior - Quinn will still have his own personal reasons for disagreeing with them, and it's unclear as to how complete his newfound loyalty would be (and even more unclear as to whether most Sith Warriors, in that position, would even take that chance).

 

That he completely changes his tune after he's defeated is more a sign of poor writing and a band-aid attempt to justify him still being on the crew (apart from cases where the player actively wants him) because there wasn't the time to really reflect on and deal with the betrayal. There's no real exploration of the conflicts that existed outside of Quinn's loyalties to both Baras and the Warrior, and no resolution to other issues as well (i.e. Quinn's conflicts with Pierce and Vette) which could also cause problems. Post-betrayal, the game basically tries to sweep everything under the "It's all Baras'" fault rug, which I found lazy and unsatisfying, which I think all ties back into how the story handles the betrayal as a whole.**

 

I don't see either of them as being trustworthy, to be honest. Quinn, as I mentioned above, specifically states philosophical differences he has with the warrior which aren't resolved with his post-betrayal actions (or Baras' death). And Kaliyo's presence on the agent crew has always bugged me (seriously, Keeper, what was she blackmailing you with?). Her betrayal of the agent only emphasizes how silly it is that Intelligence's top agent is running around with a wild card (putting it nicely) like Kaliyo - even if the agent is okay with it (say, they're not happy with the Empire or just like Kaliyo), why would the people higher up in the Intelligence hierarchy not do anything about it?

 

All that said, as I mentioned above, I don't think Kaliyo gets a pass at all...I think it's more than people that liked her probably weren't surprised that she was up to something and those who were upset by it already disliked her. She doesn't have either a large or vocal fanbase keeping it visible, so there's no real debate over it (except occasionally in topics like this). Compare that to Quinn, who does have a large and vocal fanbase that actively participates in the debates that keep his betrayal visible within the fandom as a whole. There are pretty obvious reasons why Quinn's betrayal remains a hot topic in the community while the one committed by a much less popular character is mostly ignored.

 

 

**Note: This is a big reason I feel like they should have completely retooled the end of his arc if they were going to remove the ability to kill him. It makes a mess of the story, it undermines the player/player character's ability to make choices that are character and lore-appropriate, and it undermines the impact of Quinn's betrayal by papering over the consequences and then largely pretending like it never happened outside of a couple stray lines of dialogue (and Quinn even gets hilarious lines like telling Baras' spy in the Corellian resistance how there's only one punishment for betrayal!). The entire thing is handled so poorly by the writers.

Edited March 20, 2017 by RarePorcupine

[grania]

Eh, I think this is an enormously charitable perspective on Quinn's betrayal.

 

Yeah see I think it's a charitable perspective of Quinn's character. Y'all know I love Quinn, the most of any companion. He's fun and quirky and heartbreaking and infuriating. And I completely agree that he was put in a no-win situation.

 

But I think calling Quinn a good man is inaccurate. He's a model imperial. Sure sometimes he agrees with light decisions (if we want to say, for the sake of simplicity, that light is good and dark is evil?) But only in situations where fellow imperials are shown mercy or the Empire is put before personal gain/vendettas.

 

Some of the things the dark warrior does that he approves of are completely egregious. Killing Jaesa's parents, giving Renata to Kendoh.. the list could go on and on and on and on. Heck my favorite scene for the dark warrior is torturing Noman Karr. Quinn is right there alongside her. The couple that tortures together stays together..

 

It's okay if you like to interpret Quinn as being a good person but personally I can't see it. Doesn't make me like him any less. That said, I do find him trustworthy at this point. It's a shame the writing surrounding the betrayal was so wobbly, it's pretty much the most memorable thing a companion does in this entire game. But I have no reason not to trust him at this point. 1. He knows how capable the warrior is 2. He's in love with her and 3. He proved himself trustworthy on Corellia and beyond. Vowrawn makes a big deal about it.

 

Basically - the writer dictated that he would now be trustworthy, and so he is. So there.

[RarePorcupine]

Yeah see I think it's a charitable perspective of Quinn's character.

 

Heh, I actually toned down the language a bit to be less hostile, but if a big Quinn fan agrees...

 

Y'all know I love Quinn, the most of any companion. He's fun and quirky and heartbreaking and infuriating. And I completely agree that he was put in a no-win situation.

 

But I think calling Quinn a good man is inaccurate. He's a model imperial. Sure sometimes he agrees with light decisions (if we want to say, for the sake of simplicity, that light is good and dark is evil?) But only in situations where fellow imperials are shown mercy or the Empire is put before personal gain/vendettas.

 

Yeah, and if I'm allowed to make a meta observation, I think that's what rubs some people the wrong way with these discussions. I get that people like Quinn, but there tend to be a lot of "charitable" portrayals of him to make him more sympathetic and/or to excuse his betrayal (i.e. he was forced to do it, Baras brainwashed him, he deliberately threw the fight so the SW would win, etc.) rather than acknowledging his more complex characterization. Some of that might be down to gender/romance-related stuff as someone else theorized, but I also think some of it comes down to some of the arguments made to support/sympathize with Quinn come across.

 

Quinn isn't Temple or Vector or Talos (if I remember right he's also pretty light-sided) - they're all loyal Imperials who still show a much firmer and consistent commitment to moral/ethical concerns than Quinn does. And that's fine, he doesn't need to be - being the morally (darkish) gray Imperial is his character niche and that shouldn't be ignored or handwaved away to try to make him look good. That's why I think he's an interesting character, even if I dislike him and would never want to be friends with someone like him.

 

It's a shame the writing surrounding the betrayal was so wobbly, it's pretty much the most memorable thing a companion does in this entire game. But I have no reason not to trust him at this point. 1. He knows how capable the warrior is 2. He's in love with her and 3. He proved himself trustworthy on Corellia and beyond. Vowrawn makes a big deal about it.

 

Basically - the writer dictated that he would now be trustworthy, and so he is. So there.

 

Yeah, I'm basically on board with this from an out-of-universe perspective - the writing let down what could and should have been an amazing scenario for character and plot development. Is he trustworthy from our perspective? Yeah, basically, because there's (probably!) no chance they'll pull a stunt like that with him again. I mean you get people who are angry with much more sympathetic "betrayals" (i.e. how people react to Koth not liking you murdering civilians), so it'd be like poking the hornet's nest to have Quinn act out again.

 

It's a shame they couldn't make it work in-game, where his betrayal getting shrugged off doesn't make nearly as much sense (and of course our characters wouldn't know the helpful Bioware writers would mandate him being loyal!). They could have even used it for later development for the SW, who might come to regret killing or banishing him without giving him a second chance.

 

And now he'll just be another replaceable part in the never-ending collection of companions, regardless

Edited March 20, 2017 by RarePorcupine

[grania]

Heh, I actually toned down the language a bit to be less hostile, but if a big Quinn fan agrees...

 

Well, yes. I mean real life people are flawed, aren't perfect champions of the light and yet still are lovable. If that weren't the case I sure would be a lonely shmuck

 

Yeah, and if I'm allowed to make a meta observation, I think that's what rubs some people the wrong way with these discussions. I get that people like Quinn, but there tends to be a lot of "charitable" portrayals of him to make him more sympathetic and/or to excuse his betrayal (i.e. he was forced to do it, Baras brainwashed him, he deliberately threw the fight so the SW would win, etc.) rather than acknowledging his more complex characterization.

 

We're used to having to defend our fondness. Plus, we (people who play female warrior) have a less than ideal romance and I forgive anyone for wanting to look it in any way that makes 'em happy. As we've noted, there are gaps in the story anyway. Might as well fill them.

 

And now he'll just be another replaceable part in the never-ending collection of companions, regardless

 

Lets just.. not talk about it, makes me upset

[JakRoanin]

Woman here who despises Kaliyo, and who's female agent can't wait to throw her away. Seriously, she's not just a terrible person, but her story is bantha-poo-doo! Why I must suffer with her is beyond me. As for Quinn he's actually Machiavelli's dream Prince! He can't truly be considered evil because he does have a personal moral code, he's not someone who engages in amoral behavior for pleasure or because he can. That said, my LS Warrior doesn't trust him and never will, but as long as he knows he can beat Quinn he'll keep his enemy close and use him. IMVHO great character lousy human being. However, unlike Kaliyo he's useful.

[Yezzan]

The trouble is most people fell in love with Quinn. He's cute, sexy and loyal whereas ,Kailyo is a bald-headed, backstabbing, nerf-hearding Ratatakki, who the agent shouldn't have trust anyways.

 

You expect Kailyo to betray you or do something messed up; Quinn, not so much. Unfortunately, the time to kill Quinn came too late. At this point, it's hard to kill him. He had pledged his loyalty to you and helped you kill Baras (pretty sure everyone had to use him because he was the only heal companion at the time). even put his life on the lie to help Darth Vowrawn, in an attempt to make amends. While I would humiliate him and have him beg for his life, I wouldn't kill him ( on my main).

 

As for Kaliyo, I wouldn't have an option to kill her because I would have sanctioned her mission. I couldn't wait to Kill Jorgan though (couldn't stand him).