Ranged classes aren't OP. Melee classes are under-powered. Here's why

[zhezvya]

Dull tactics are not only more effective, they are the only viable one for teamranked.

That somehow reminds me of when NJ Devils brought trap into 90ies hockey and won 1995 Cup. It was the dumbest way to victory ever. Lock neutral zone, def, score one goal. If speaking about SWTOR regs it is: Bring 2-3 healers+ tank, create a stale, kill 2 enemies vs 1 or 0 kills on the other side and win. ***. What kind of pvp is that?

And sir, in all honesty, i play pvp to kill. Id rather die ten times and have ten kills, than not die at all and not have any kill.

This. Either force matchmaking or increase population. While the latter seems rather impossible, the first option is more real. I had enough of stales for a lifetime.

Edited February 21, 2017 by zhezvya

[Qwurdilu]

The real problem that causes this defensive race is the lack of matchmaking.

[...] See, the problem (and the reason why we'll never agree) is that we're talking about entirely different scenarios. Entirely different balancing is needed for team ranked and everything else, especially regs. It's hard to balance both at the same time.

 

I agree that matchmaking is the problem. without matchmaking there is no point in adressing class balance.

 

However ignoring matchmaking and just buffing defensives to a point where dps dont need tanks or healers to perfom is very wrong imho. This needs to stop.

[Sargrith]

That somehow reminds me of when NJ Devils brought trap into 90ies hockey and won 1995 Cup. It was the dumbest way to victory ever. Lock neutral zone, def, score one goal.

 

Actually they ended with three titles and dominate the east for the better part of a decade. They played to their strength, best goalie of all time, extremely solid defensemen, and heavy hitters. They did what they did well. It wasn't dumb it was smart, they played their style of hockey and forced you to as well. The trap also worked well because with their goalie dumping the puck wasn't very effective. He handled the puck as well as any goalie ever.

 

And you come across the mid line with your head down....Stevens would make sure you paid for that. What a team, thanks for reminding me.

[Kazz_Devlin]

I'm not here to cry nerf on the classes that have been shown love. I'm here to give objective data and subjective reasoning as to why melee, and in specific, Guardian/Juggernaut classes are absolutely broken in PvP.

 

I main Guardian in Focus spec. I deal decent damage, no problem there. Here are some reasons on why this melee class is broken.

 

1. Every class has multiple damage mitigation shields that I must chew through. They are easily re-applied.
    
   
2. My class must overcome "slow" abilities that are cast repeatedly on me. They are easily re-applied.
    
   
3. There is no way to survive or escape single or multiple threats. Once I am engaged, I must win or die.
    
   
4. Ranged classes are adept at damaging me through my defensive cool-downs. Saber Reflect does not give adequate protection. Focused Defense does not provide adequate healing, and I am only able to heal through being continuously damaged.. Enure does little more than buy 2-3 seconds worth of life before it too has been damaged through; Enure is a worthless defensive cooldown in the PvP realm.
   
5. My control of the battle is severely limited. I must hold my opponent in extremely close proximity and have limited ability to do so. Anything I can control my opponent with is short-lived and subject to being negated by Resolve.
   

 

Point # 1 scenario. Worst offenders: Sorcerer/Mercenary. Multiple/Re-applicable shields, Phase Walk, God-bubble, Mercenary auto-heal button.

 

Point #2 scenario. Worst offenders: Sorcerer/Mercenary. Sorcerers have a trait that allows them a free stun if they are critically hit, this is re-applied frequently and diminishes my class effectiveness. Mercenaries have Electro-Net, which limits my mobility to absolute zero and is not subject to Resolve because it is a slow, not a stun. I can not leap to a friendly/hostile target. I can not blade blitz out of Electro-Net. I am simply nothing more than a walking health-bar; my class effectiveness is reduced to zero

 

Point #3 scenario. Worst offenders: Sorcerer/Mercenary/Assassin/Operative. Mercenaries are allowed to escape frequently with a push-back, a gap creating ability, a defensive cool-down allowing unrestrained movement and a stun ability. Sorcerers are able to Phase Walk or Bubble and Force Speed with little consequence; any consequence can be mitigated with another re-applied shield or immediately stunning an opponent waiting for their invulnerability to end. Assassins and Operatives can stealth in combat and simply exit the battle.

 

Point #4 scenario. Saber Reflect on paper is a great defensive ability and can wisely be used offensively. It is short-lived with an obscene cool-down to be practical in any battle scenario. Activating Focused Defense at mid-HP while being damaged means I will probably end up with mid-HP when its charges have run out; opponent damage continues. Focused Defense at low-hp means that you will probably critically hit through its allotted healing and eliminate me from battle. Enure needs no explanation as to why it is useless outside of the PvE realm.

 

Point #4 scenario. Force Stasis is subject to Resolve. Force Push is subject to Resolve. A traited Saber Throw immobilization is subject to Resolve. Zealous Leap immobilization is ineffective and its range is laughable considering I must casually saunter over to my intended target to apply an incredibly short-duration immobilization.

 

The main objective of this thread promote awareness that the scales are currently tipped in favor of ALL ranged classes. No matter what class you play, no matter if you disagree, there is absolutely no basis for someone to say that melee is on par with ranged right now.

 

The only solution to these problems are to acknowledge that Guardian/Juggernaut is obsolete in tactics, skills, traits and abilities and must be re-worked until it is at least semi-competitive in scenarios with other classes.

 

Really i have a shield as a deception sin? That's funny I thought it was a focus..........(psst it is a focus) (for the GFS means no shields)

 

Slow issue? So you just want to be able to continually beat on your victims and not give them any means of avoiding all that awesome dps you have?

 

No way to escape didn't you get a force charge thing that lets you burst halfway across a map?

 

Your a God $%^ DPS spec your suppose to put out huge DPS and then DIE. Quit crying you want the 3 lives of the post 5.0 back that's what broke your class to begin with.

 

So you get a leap that locks me in place whilst allowing you to unload a crap ton of DPS before I can do anything plus force choke and a throw that dam near throws me across the map and AOE stun and you have the AUDICITY TO COMPLAIN THAT YOU DON"T HAVE ANY CONTROL ABILITIES!!!!! REALLY are you fricken serious?

 

If your serious about playing the class why don't you find someone who knows the class really well and ask for tips because most of what your asking for breaks trinity! You can't have an I win class otherwise we end up with the same bs we got with merc's and sniper's EVERYONE playing an I WIN class! This just sounds to me like someone who played this class back in 4.0 and no can't hack it now that they've been brought some what into balance with other classes (snipers and merc's exclude of course)

Edited February 23, 2017 by Kazz_Devlin

[Kazz_Devlin]

OP you are way too generalizing. Mara currently is running supreme. I feel for you as a jugg and truly GL if you are an ops, but saying mara or sins (Dec) need a buff is beyond crazy talk.

 

It is undisputable though, there needs to be major roll backs on DCDs offered in 5.0. Merc is the poster child for this, but this also applies to sniper, mara and Dec sins (to an extent). We need to nerf survivability across the board.

 

are you kidding mercs/mandos rip through my hitpoints like i'm wareing paper mache and you want to make it even easier! We're already glass cannon's as is when properly focused. Yeah IF we got deflection we get some mitigation once gone we're butter and cloak is so easy to pop with AOE's add in our crappy heals (if up) so can't support this.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Kazz_Devlin

[Neoforcer]

I'm not here to cry nerf on the classes that have been shown love. I'm here to give objective data and subjective reasoning as to why melee, and in specific, Guardian/Juggernaut classes are absolutely broken in PvP.

 

I main Guardian in Focus spec. I deal decent damage, no problem there. Here are some reasons on why this melee class is broken.

 

1. Every class has multiple damage mitigation shields that I must chew through. They are easily re-applied.
    
   
2. My class must overcome "slow" abilities that are cast repeatedly on me. They are easily re-applied.
    
   
3. There is no way to survive or escape single or multiple threats. Once I am engaged, I must win or die.
    
   
4. Ranged classes are adept at damaging me through my defensive cool-downs. Saber Reflect does not give adequate protection. Focused Defense does not provide adequate healing, and I am only able to heal through being continuously damaged.. Enure does little more than buy 2-3 seconds worth of life before it too has been damaged through; Enure is a worthless defensive cooldown in the PvP realm.
   
5. My control of the battle is severely limited. I must hold my opponent in extremely close proximity and have limited ability to do so. Anything I can control my opponent with is short-lived and subject to being negated by Resolve.
   

 

Point # 1 scenario. Worst offenders: Sorcerer/Mercenary. Multiple/Re-applicable shields, Phase Walk, God-bubble, Mercenary auto-heal button.

 

Point #2 scenario. Worst offenders: Sorcerer/Mercenary. Sorcerers have a trait that allows them a free stun if they are critically hit, this is re-applied frequently and diminishes my class effectiveness. Mercenaries have Electro-Net, which limits my mobility to absolute zero and is not subject to Resolve because it is a slow, not a stun. I can not leap to a friendly/hostile target. I can not blade blitz out of Electro-Net. I am simply nothing more than a walking health-bar; my class effectiveness is reduced to zero

 

Point #3 scenario. Worst offenders: Sorcerer/Mercenary/Assassin/Operative. Mercenaries are allowed to escape frequently with a push-back, a gap creating ability, a defensive cool-down allowing unrestrained movement and a stun ability. Sorcerers are able to Phase Walk or Bubble and Force Speed with little consequence; any consequence can be mitigated with another re-applied shield or immediately stunning an opponent waiting for their invulnerability to end. Assassins and Operatives can stealth in combat and simply exit the battle.

 

Point #4 scenario. Saber Reflect on paper is a great defensive ability and can wisely be used offensively. It is short-lived with an obscene cool-down to be practical in any battle scenario. Activating Focused Defense at mid-HP while being damaged means I will probably end up with mid-HP when its charges have run out; opponent damage continues. Focused Defense at low-hp means that you will probably critically hit through its allotted healing and eliminate me from battle. Enure needs no explanation as to why it is useless outside of the PvE realm.

 

Point #4 scenario. Force Stasis is subject to Resolve. Force Push is subject to Resolve. A traited Saber Throw immobilization is subject to Resolve. Zealous Leap immobilization is ineffective and its range is laughable considering I must casually saunter over to my intended target to apply an incredibly short-duration immobilization.

 

The main objective of this thread promote awareness that the scales are currently tipped in favor of ALL ranged classes. No matter what class you play, no matter if you disagree, there is absolutely no basis for someone to say that melee is on par with ranged right now.

 

The only solution to these problems are to acknowledge that Guardian/Juggernaut is obsolete in tactics, skills, traits and abilities and must be re-worked until it is at least semi-competitive in scenarios with other classes.

 

So you think it is ok for 2 merc's to sit a node with 7 players of the other team beating on them with no healers for those to merc's in old 208 gear with no augs to not die for the hole nova cost. Hmm yep working as intended and before you go the other team is bad there dps were = to the 2 mercs and the merc took all that damage and did not die. Yep melee is under powered LOL

Edited February 23, 2017 by Neoforcer