Way to go punishing PvPers....

[mmmbuddah]

PFFFT. OMG. Exaggeration much? If you've read my previous posts...for the love of God, read them, then you'd know I am not a fan of the grind fest.

BUT FFS...how will you gear up FASTER because it's PVP gear? AND It's taken me a week to go from 230s to all gold 236s. ONE FREAKING WEEK. And I've only been playing a few nights a week for a few hours as my child has been home for school holidays.

 

So months? C'mon! Months? If anyone should get instant gear, it should be ops people because you know what?! That content is HARD. That takes skill to get the reward. PVP? Not so much. If PVP were like an OPS, then it would last a few hours and after all of that all 8 would be required to /roll then ONE random highest roll would get the piece of gear. PVPers punished? Bullcrap.

 

I have been playing on 1 main character since 5,0 launched and I am not at lvl 300 yet, 200, yeah, and I have gotten in that time a whole 7 gold pieces. The rest are usually green.

 

With the old pvp gear system you could amass enough warzone commendations by the time you GOT to max level by pvping before max level. So you could INSTANTLY have a full set of pvp gear before you even step foot into pvp. There is a reason Irving got axed, because this is the most awful system -ever-

[mmmbuddah]

Expertise has nothing to do with gear acquisition speed...that is where you seem to be missing something.

 

If expertise was still in the game that gear would take just as long to get....Except you would then have a gear set that took just as long to get but sucked in PvE...

 

I'm not seeing an upside here.

 

No, if expertise were still in the game we would still have a seperate set of pvp gear which if kept the same would have been available the second you set foot into top tier pvp, assuming you played even a tiny bit of pvp pre 70. Even if you didnt, if warzone comms were still the way the were pre 5,0 you could play maybe 2 hours of warzones and have all the gear you needed in order to be competitive.

 

2 Hours

 

vs

 

Weeks / Months

 

It was so easy to understand it was laughable really. Now though, if you are unlucky, like I am, and got mostly green gear from 1- 200 command level, and dont live and breath the game, you are the punching bag for the people that dont have a job / life and got super lucky with their crates / and or spent SO much time pvping to get their unassembled components that they managed to get full 242.

 

Also, you STILL need 2 sets of gear in order to be an asset to your team in pvp, if you run in with the same gear that you have in pve, you will just be a detriment to your team because you perform sub par.

 

Again, there is a reason Irving got fired, because " moved onto new things " is business speak for " we fired his *** " , and you can bet it is this disaster of a system which caused subs to plummet to unprecedented levels.

Edited April 16, 2017 by mmmbuddah

[Soljin]

No, if expertise were still in the game we would still have a seperate set of pvp gear which if kept the same would have been available the second you set foot into top tier pvp, assuming you played even a tiny bit of pvp pre 70. Even if you didnt, if warzone comms were still the way the were pre 5,0 you could play maybe 2 hours of warzones and have all the gear you needed in order to be competitive.

 

2 Hours

 

vs

 

Weeks / Months

 

It was so easy to understand it was laughable really. Now though, if you are unlucky, like I am, and got mostly green gear from 1- 200 command level, and dont live and breath the game, you are the punching bag for the people that dont have a job / life and got super lucky with their crates / and or spent SO much time pvping to get their unassembled components that they managed to get full 242.

 

Also, you STILL need 2 sets of gear in order to be an asset to your team in pvp, if you run in with the same gear that you have in pve, you will just be a detriment to your team because you perform sub par.

 

Again, there is a reason Irving got fired, because " moved onto new things " is business speak for " we fired his *** " , and you can bet it is this disaster of a system which caused subs to plummet to unprecedented levels.

 

I get what you are saying but it still has nothing to do with expertise...It has to do with the old gearing system vs. the new... 4.0 vs 5.0.

 

I agree fully that the GC gearing system is total garbage hence my Signature and previous posts in this very thread. But do not get it twisted Expertise is made irrelevant by bolster and does not apply to the conversation in regards to Time to gear.

 

Although you may still need to adjust your gear set to specific situations without expertise...with expertise you would have to grind exponentially more set pieces not just change out a few enhancements and augments.

 

I am trying to point out that what you seem to take issue with is the time to gear and that is not directly related to the expertise stat in any way...

[americanaussie]

I have been playing on 1 main character since 5,0 launched and I am not at lvl 300 yet, 200, yeah, and I have gotten in that time a whole 7 gold pieces. The rest are usually green.

 

With the old pvp gear system you could amass enough warzone commendations by the time you GOT to max level by pvping before max level. So you could INSTANTLY have a full set of pvp gear before you even step foot into pvp. There is a reason Irving got axed, because this is the most awful system -ever-

 

Are you using your components? Like I was really racking them up. I got 50 in about a couple hours, turn in my weekly, boom, another 40, turn in my daily, another 12. That's 102 in one day. I did get lucky with a few crates. I'll be honest, but I also made a bloody mistake and bought the force MASTER chestpiece when I wanted the force MYSTIC. So, I went back to it and earned myself about 150...80 some yesterday, and the rest today to get the set piece I needed. But it's not taking months. I'm not kidding. Now, I don't just pvp, I do heroics and ops, but I've geared through pvp and used heroics credits to buy myself a 240 main and 240 offhand.

 

I'll post proof.

 

First ops tonight on my newish sorc. Fun times. Now to gear her up. 😊

LIKE

1

 

11:32 PM - 29 Mar 2017

 

Newish, as in Fresh level 70 with (to my shock and horror 146-210 gear. my relics were 146. it was a training ops so it was ok)

 

It's now 16/4 and I'm in gold 236s. My helmet's armoring is still 230 so that's not gold yet, but the rest of the mods are 236. I got my armor through pvp/crates from playing a handful of hours 3-4 nights a week. I took nearly a full week off last week as I had a bad reaction to the flu vaccine.

 

Ok ok, it's not 242s. but 236 is enough in wz. My operative is geared similarly, but through spamming kotfe c2. my operative is almost to level 180. My sorc maybe near 110.

 

If it's taking you months, then you're not doing something right. Are you going through the galactic command window to queue? Are you using components to purchase gear? Does your server's pvp pop?

[ivanhedgehog]

Yup and OPS whiners got what they wanted... If you plan it out right, you could have 4 people nearly fully geared in a few days... More then that if you got really lucky with drops... That's better then pre 5.0...

 

With alts and prudent planning, you could have a full 8 geared just as fast... It's BS how much PvP players got shafted.. And then the bolster "fix" really screwed things up between the haves and have nots

 

Pvpers shout have a lockout then. there is no limit to how many matches they can gain gear from.

[ivanhedgehog]

Dying in Ops isn't part of the gameplay - in PvP it is. You have scripted bots attacking you the exact same way every time - PvP is 100% random every time. I'm fully in favor of removing PvE repair costs AND lockouts, but to suggest adding them to PvP is just silly.

 

If you dont kill the boss before the enrage timer or mess up a mechanic in an op, you die. If you dont kill your enemies in pvp...you die. same thing.

[Soljin]

Pvpers shout have a lockout then. there is no limit to how many matches they can gain gear from.

 

They need to remove lockouts on all content...not add one. If you subscribe to play a game locking content out is a cop out way to slow progression in any aspect.

[ivanhedgehog]

They need to remove lockouts on all content...not add one. If you subscribe to play a game locking content out is a cop out way to slow progression in any aspect.

 

I am all for this. It is like a resteraunt telling customers they can only eat there 1 night a week. I made alts so I can continue to play throughout the week and then they screw alts.

 

2.0, the expansion was about makeb

3.0 the expansion was about rishi/yavin

4.0 the expansion was about odessan/zakuul

5.0 the expansion was about gear grind

 

all the other expansions revolved around keeping you interested doing the content. 5.0 is nothing but the GXP treadmill. an expansion that wasnt an expansion. That should keep you here for another year, right?

Edited April 16, 2017 by ivanhedgehog

[Tsillah]

Although, I disagree a little on the "you know you're going to lose early on". Sure, sometimes, you do.

Well I did say often, not always. The truth is that I am a tactical thinker and I know what it takes to win the warzones. So when I see people doing things that have nothing to do with getting objectives, you really can quickly see that a group is not going to manage against an opposing group.

 

For example, you see the bulk of your team go for mid and have a stalemate battle where neither side wins because both sides have healers for example. Then the enemy captures the other 2 points and nobody reacts but me. I call it out, nobody follows, they stay in mid. They get huge dps numbers but nobody dies and we lose the match.

 

Another example. Points are capped but are abandoned and no one wants to defend it. The enemy caps it. People go there but all of them do and we lose mid...so the enemy still has two points and we lose because after capping west they all go back to mid to cap it and lose west again. Net result is the same.

 

This happenened a LOT when I was playing. I tried to call out that we should defend this or split up...no reactions.

 

Honestly, when you see a lot of that, you know these matches are lost. People are not interested in team tactics and even doing what it takes to win. And I do get tired of standing at snow for 10 mins as well as a healer and then have someone shout why we don't have healers. My answer is then: I'm a healer but I defend snow because nobody else wants to. Why make these matches last longer then?

[Tsillah]

If you dont kill the boss before the enrage timer or mess up a mechanic in an op, you die. If you dont kill your enemies in pvp...you die. same thing.

 

Except in operations you pay 20k each time you die and in PvP you get rewarded for losing.

[mmmbuddah]

I get what you are saying but it still has nothing to do with expertise...It has to do with the old gearing system vs. the new... 4.0 vs 5.0.

 

I agree fully that the GC gearing system is total garbage hence my Signature and previous posts in this very thread. But do not get it twisted Expertise is made irrelevant by bolster and does not apply to the conversation in regards to Time to gear.

 

Although you may still need to adjust your gear set to specific situations without expertise...with expertise you would have to grind exponentially more set pieces not just change out a few enhancements and augments.

 

I am trying to point out that what you seem to take issue with is the time to gear and that is not directly related to the expertise stat in any way...

 

It has eerythng to do with expertise because without it, it would just be a cheap way for people to get gear bypassing ops. That is why pvp gear was ALWAYS much lower tier than top tier pve gear. It was the only way to guarantee that people in ops wouldnt just use the pvp gear for ops and pve. We need to go back to he old system, or just make pvp gearless. Where everyone has uniform stats. But that would also be dumb because people have preferred playstyles. And no you didnt need to grind for the pvp gear, it was super quick, and you could even buy individual mods and enhancements from the vendors, which you could also get relatively quickly. Optimizing your gear to how you wanted it within days tops. With the old system I could have full sets of healer and dps gear on my scoundrel within days, gear that was not viable in even flashpoints because it was much lower tier than pve gear, so it served its purpose specifically for pvp with expertise.

Edited April 16, 2017 by mmmbuddah

[mmmbuddah]

Pvpers shout have a lockout then. there is no limit to how many matches they can gain gear from.

 

Ops players can choose which ops they want to do. We cant.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

This is IMO, the most flawed part of the game at the moment. People do a few story mode operations to get the startup gear (230) and afterwards EV or KP HM to get a few easy 236 pieces.Then ist just PVP (GSF) to get to the 242 stuff. So what's the point in running NIM operations since PVP is so much "easier" They just have to do the PVP daylie, weekly and even if they loose they still get components. My guild is running premades all day long because gearing up this way is so much more efficient. Want some easy 242 wrist piece? Just wait for raghul event and do 16 man HM with 8 or less people. Switch to alts and repeat. Add some Nefra NIM, open your crates and you might get lucky.

But if you don't like PVE or you don't like PVP you're screwed. Try grinding your gear in PVP from 0 to 242. It will take forever. Try grinding your gear in PVE in NIM operations. You'd have a really hard time even finding a group that does NIM content. Why? Because most people at 236 do PVP for the 242 stuff.

 

If you don't like PVE or PVP, there is no point to playing this game because everything in the entire game is either PVE or PVP heh

[unibim]

Except in operations you pay 20k each time you die and in PvP you get rewarded for losing.

 

Death is a part of PvP gameplay.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Pvpers shout have a lockout then. there is no limit to how many matches they can gain gear from.

This sentence...

How about locking PvErs out of flashpoints too?

[Tsillah]

Death is a part of PvP gameplay.

I know. What's your point? You don't have to pay repair costs and if you lose the warzone you still get rewards.

 

Did I say anything that wasn't true there?

 

This sentence...

How about locking PvErs out of flashpoints too?

Again, what's your point? I never said anyone should be locked out of anything, so why this comment?

[Soljin]

It has eerythng to do with expertise because without it, it would just be a cheap way for people to get gear bypassing ops. That is why pvp gear was ALWAYS much lower tier than top tier pve gear. It was the only way to guarantee that people in ops wouldnt just use the pvp gear for ops and pve. We need to go back to he old system, or just make pvp gearless. Where everyone has uniform stats. But that would also be dumb because people have preferred playstyles. And no you didnt need to grind for the pvp gear, it was super quick, and you could even buy individual mods and enhancements from the vendors, which you could also get relatively quickly. Optimizing your gear to how you wanted it within days tops. With the old system I could have full sets of healer and dps gear on my scoundrel within days, gear that was not viable in even flashpoints because it was much lower tier than pve gear, so it served its purpose specifically for pvp with expertise.

 

You are operating under the assumption that being able to move from PvP to PvE and back using the same gear while progressing the entire time is a bad thing.

 

I like being able to PvE and PvP and transition between the two at will or whim. Which is why Bolster is a good thing and a PvP specific stat that is designed to alienate one player preference from another entirely is not.

 

PvP specific stats are not good for anyone because there are much better ways to handle the situation that do not restrict the player base to one specific play style.

 

The old MMO penalty for non-hardcore systems were not built to work in games that promote people participating in multiple playstyles which as a side effect keeps people playing longer..bonus to the developer...

 

I'm going to stop with this response on Expertise because its really starting to come down to a difference in our perspectives.

 

Going forward you will not likely see PvP specific stats in MMOs and there is a reason for that which I have tried to explain. Either way if you liked Expertise then I'm sorry you lost it, but I am glad it's gone because it was garbage.

 

Balance time to gear properly and the completely dated perspective that Raiders are going to roll PvP veterans goes out the window...

Edited April 16, 2017 by Soljin

[Tsillah]

You are operating under the assumption that being able to move from PvP to PvE and back using the same gear while progressing the entire time is a bad thing.

In my view using the same gear between PvP and PvE is bad, but maybe not for the reasons you might think. By itself using the same gear is not problematic but what is problematic is how you get that gear, which in PvP and PvE are done in entirely different ways. That doesn't have to be problematic per definition but if you need to actually kill final bosses in NiM ops to get BiS gear and in PvP you just have to show up and hang around, there is a complete and utter inequality going on there. That's the real problem. And unless you know of a way where the same gear can be rewarded in a fair way between the two gameplay types, it's simple not right. If you prefer PvP you're fine, if you prefer PvE (as in raiding) then you're screwed. You can't pretend that 5.2 gear drops in NiM as suggested in the patch notes is anywhere near fair compared to getting BiS gearin PvP just for showing up and doing whatever.

 

I like being able to PvE and PvP and transition between the two at will or whim. Which is why Bolster is a good thing and a PvP specific stat that is designed to alienate one player preference from another entirely is not.

For me the answer lies in getting a separate tab for PvE and PvP gear. I also don't want expertise back but I do want a separation between PvP and PvE gear for the reasons I mentioned above. The tab should then be auto-selected depending on whether you are in a PvP or PvE zone. That way you have easy transition.

Bolster is not a good thing in my view because it's set so low that new players who don't really have any endgame gear yet lose out big time against geared people for two reasons: first the geared players have set bonuses and secondly because they have higher gear, they have better stats because bolster is set at a rating well below BiS gear. Now ok, maybe that's part of how it should work. Starting with crappier gear that will push you to progress your gear. Even still I really don't think bolster is that great and it's another reason why I prefer separate PvP gear with a starting set to begin with. You won't need bolster then and all starters are equal at least and not completely undergeared.

 

PvP specific stats are not good for anyone because there are much better ways to handle the situation that do not restrict the player base to one specific play style.

I also don't like expertise but what I currently don't like is that if you want BiS gear you're better off playing PvP than PvE, even if it's to gain the gear you want/need in PvE. That's what's wrong with the current set up and I don't think it can be changed to a fair system unless you do have separate gear for PvP and PvE...just without PvP stats but just to give them separate progression formats so that you do not create the unfairness that exists now and will still exist in 5.2 because BWA stealth nerfed NiM drops by comparison.

 

It's just a mess. But nobody can make a case for beating NiM content being less rewarding than losing warzones, because that's where it's at right now and it's a load of bollocks.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Tsillah

[Soljin]

In my view using the same gear between PvP and PvE is bad, but maybe not for the reasons you might think. By itself using the same gear is not problematic but what is problematic is how you get that gear, which in PvP and PvE are done in entirely different ways. That doesn't have to be problematic per definition but if you need to actually kill final bosses in NiM ops to get BiS gear and in PvP you just have to show up and hang around, there is a complete and utter inequality going on there. That's the real problem. And unless you know of a way where the same gear can be rewarded in a fair way between the two gameplay types, it's simple not right. If you prefer PvP you're fine, if you prefer PvE (as in raiding) then you're screwed. You can't pretend that 5.2 gear drops in NiM as suggested in the patch notes is anywhere near fair compared to getting BiS gearin PvP just for showing up and doing whatever.

 

 

For me the answer lies in getting a separate tab for PvE and PvP gear. I also don't want expertise back but I do want a separation between PvP and PvE gear for the reasons I mentioned above. The tab should then be auto-selected depending on whether you are in a PvP or PvE zone. That way you have easy transition.

Bolster is not a good thing in my view because it's set so low that new players who don't really have any endgame gear yet lose out big time against geared people for two reasons: first the geared players have set bonuses and secondly because they have higher gear, they have better stats because bolster is set at a rating well below BiS gear. Now ok, maybe that's part of how it should work. Starting with crappier gear that will push you to progress your gear. Even still I really don't think bolster is that great and it's another reason why I prefer separate PvP gear with a starting set to begin with. You won't need bolster then and all starters are equal at least and not completely undergeared.

 

 

I also don't like expertise but what I currently don't like is that if you want BiS gear you're better off playing PvP than PvE, even if it's to gain the gear you want/need in PvE. That's what's wrong with the current set up and I don't think it can be changed to a fair system unless you do have separate gear for PvP and PvE...just without PvP stats but just to give them separate progression formats so that you do not create the unfairness that exists now and will still exist in 5.2 because BWA stealth nerfed NiM drops by comparison.

 

It's just a mess. But nobody can make a case for beating NiM content being less rewarding than losing warzones, because that's where it's at right now and it's a load of bollocks.

 

Solid points, I appreciate the fair and level headed response.

[ThrakhathSpawn]

Operations were seriously lagging behind player vs player.

[stoopicus]

And the pendulum swings too far back the other way with 5.2, where Ops will be close to back to the 4.x model, but PvP is lagging behind.

 

Note that I am happy for Ops there, and wish that PvP would get additional boosts, not calling for a nerf at all.

[stoopicus]

Except in operations you pay 20k each time you die and in PvP you get rewarded for losing.

 

Sure, but that's a non-issue. People need to stop bringing up repair costs as a "risk" of ops. Repair costs are trivial. It costs more to rip out a single 242 mod than it does to repair after a wipe.

 

Ops do have risk - basically the time you put in to it being wasted if you fail - but whenever I see someone quote repair costs as a risk, I kind of laugh.

[Savej]

Operations were seriously lagging behind player vs player.

 

3.x - got an Op and a couple world bosses (Ziost and Y4) - no new pvp. 4.x - got an arena and a wz (eventually), no Ops or wbs. 5.0 - got neither so far but about to get an Op. They're basically tied for least supported main features in an mmo ever. But there's no "seriously lagging behind" going on.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Savej

[americanaussie]

Sure, but that's a non-issue. People need to stop bringing up repair costs as a "risk" of ops. Repair costs are trivial. It costs more to rip out a single 242 mod than it does to repair after a wipe.

 

Ops do have risk - basically the time you put in to it being wasted if you fail - but whenever I see someone quote repair costs as a risk, I kind of laugh.

 

I wouldn't be able to play PvP if we had repair costs. For real. Lol. My technique sometimes as a healer is running around like a chicken with its head cut off while a train of enemies follow me around. I'll phase shift then get in a few good heals before me and 3-4 maras/sents etc do our train dance again. In 4v4 on my healer this is how I help my team to win cause I know at least 3 of them will head straight for me.

 

Or...I spend an awful lot of time being grabbed like a ragdoll by tanks. I hate tanks. Can't keep their greedy hands to themselves

 

I haven't been dying nearly as often but it happens more on my healer just because once you get a target on your head for freehealing then the whole room turns to you every time you make an entrance. 5-6 v me ends very quickly. Repair costs would end my PvP playing on my healer.

[Tsillah]

Sure, but that's a non-issue. People need to stop bringing up repair costs as a "risk" of ops. Repair costs are trivial. It costs more to rip out a single 242 mod than it does to repair after a wipe.

 

Ops do have risk - basically the time you put in to it being wasted if you fail - but whenever I see someone quote repair costs as a risk, I kind of laugh.

 

Well I think you're talking out of your rear end. When it comes to progression raiding (and not farm raiding) repair costs are not trivial. A few weeks ago when I still played we were wiping on Revan HM and it cost 500k for an evening of wiping. That's not trivial.

 

It also means that when you wipe on a boss for a number of nights it costs you millions an you have nothing to show for it. Again that's not trivial. It was ok though in the past because you were working towards a goal and once you beat a given boss there are rewards. Those rewards are now completely trivialised and PvP is the easy mode gearing in this game in 5.0 for all and you know it. People complain about it taking time to get the gear together but if you play PvP regularly it's not that bad...and you get to pick your gear AND you can be the biggest scrub on the server and get BiS gear for just showing up.

 

You can laugh all you want at the millions people don't see as trivial but the main point here is that the gearing between PvP and PvE makes no sense at all. If you want to focus on whether or not spending millions on wiping is trivial, have fun with that. To me that's not a trivial amount but more importantly, the input vs output of progresion raiding is bull because the input is much higher than the output. In PvP it's the opposite and that makes a mockery out of everything.

 

Look at the patch notes for 5.2 and tell me why it makes sense to punish NiM raiders and encourage the welfare BiS gear that you get from doing warzones as long as you just show up. I didn't get my school diploma's for attendance but for actually learning something and proving I learned it. That's a principle that makes sense because it's logical to reward effort. Now not everybody can learn the same things, so that's why I'm for a diversity of possibilities to gain rewards, but to make a gearing system that allows you the best of the best gear simply by showing is preposterous.

 

People who just hang around warzones waiting for them to end so they can join a new one to do the same is not a good thing, but it's a direct result of this gearing approach and 5.2 won't fix that. You'll see a lot of EV and KP HM runs starting up again and then while people get their 242 gear from that, they'll do warzones in between so they can upgrade it to the new BiS gear via PvP and they'll do it like that not because they like PvP but because it's so much easier to get BiS gear that way.

 

That's a load of bull.

[Jett-Rinn]

And the numbers needed are outrageously high. PvPers weren't given a bone with 5.1, they were handed a second grind as painful as CXP.

 

I really don't see why they don't go the GW2 route and make a second build for PVP, it's obvious that they way the PVE game is set, that they are never going to find balance in the force, so why not just create a alternate build system that is built from the ground up for PVP?

 

That would certainly bring me back to that aspect of the game.