Melee and Leeroy Jenkins Syndrome

[mmmbuddah]

Was in a game earlier today with 8 sorcs / sages, 2 commando / merc and 0 slingers / snipers total. Clearly the mercs and commandos are over represented in every game

 

We had a team against us using 4 snipers and 2 mercs with 2 juggs and we had 3 scoundrels, 1 commando, 1 gunslinger, 2 guardians and a sage and won. Snipers and mercs are clearly overtuned though. No healers in game.

[Lhancelot]

This should show you how bad melee classes have it right now if thread like this is necessary. You don't see threads like this one pop-up for ranged classes.

 

Do you realize how many threads and posts in the past explained how juggs ER and other dcds work? You know why?

 

Because the same complaints existed about juggs for years, that they had multiple lives and did so much damage and were impossible to kill etc.

 

Fact is, people had to learn when to attack juggs and when not to. When to stun and run, when to attack. This really is no different.

 

People simply fail to recognize when to attack the merc and when not to. They rather cry it's unfair and too hard than actually learn how to work around the mercs dcds.

 

I guess it will take a few years for people to adjust to mercs like they did juggs.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Lhancelot

[Lhancelot]

I haven't watched that video in ages, thank you. Nothing like an oldie but a goodie for a chuckle.

 

In the vein of Leeroy Jenkins, this was added much later but it's pretty funny too imo... it's called "Hitler reacts to Leeroy Jenkins run in..."

 

[QuiveringPotato]

Do you realize how many threads and posts in the past explained how juggs ER and other dcds work? You know why?

 

Because the same complaints existed about juggs for years, that they had multiple lives and did so much damage and were impossible to kill etc.

 

Fact is, people had to learn when to attack juggs and when not to. When to stun and run, when to attack. This really is no different.

 

People simply fail to recognize when to attack the merc and when not to. They rather cry it's unfair and too hard than actually learn how to work around the mercs dcds.

 

I guess it will take a few years for people to adjust to mercs like they did juggs.

 

There is no "learning" with mercs. We've already been down this road, their DCDs function very similarly to juggs.

 

The difference with mercs is that they're ranged, and if played properly, they can use the "problem ability" every 30-45 seconds, which is obviously ridiculous.

[Lhancelot]

There is no "learning" with mercs. We've already been down this road, their DCDs function very similarly to juggs.

 

The difference with mercs is that they're ranged, and if played properly, they can use the "problem ability" every 30-45 seconds, which is obviously ridiculous.

 

Actually I disagree, you might not have had to "learn" mercs, but others typically are not as observant or aware of when to use what abilities by watching their enemies attacks or dcds on their buff bars as you are.

 

I would be willing to bet you 90% or more of the people who complain about mercs being OP'd facetank the mercs regardless what dcds the merc pops.

 

Perhaps the dcds need nerfed, but not totally stripped away as most people seem to think.

 

It's good that people need to watch the merc and his/her dcds now, because dumb gameplay gets punished now.

 

They can either "learn" the merc, or continue getting punished by playing as they did prior to 5.0, facetanking the merc expecting to win easily when in actuality now they cannot do that unless the merc is truly bad or has no dcds to use.

[HelinCarnate]

Actually I disagree, you might not have had to "learn" mercs, but others typically are not as observant or aware of when to use what abilities by watching their enemies attacks or dcds on their buff bars as you are.

 

I would be willing to bet you 90% or more of the people who complain about mercs being OP'd facetank the mercs regardless what dcds the merc pops.

 

Perhaps the dcds need nerfed, but not totally stripped away as most people seem to think.

 

It's good that people need to watch the merc and his/her dcds now, because dumb gameplay gets punished now.

 

They can either "learn" the merc, or continue getting punished by playing as they did prior to 5.0, facetanking the merc expecting to win easily when in actuality now they cannot do that unless the merc is truly bad or has no dcds to use.

 

Would have to agree. The times that are easiest to survive are when there are lots of enemy players. At least one of them will continue to attack which only goes to help heal me. But when people pay attention, we can get shut down pretty easily.

[TrixxieTriss]

This should show you how bad melee classes have it right now if thread like this is necessary. You don't see threads like this one pop-up for ranged classes.

 

It's more about the bads or people who are only farming CXP. Unless they roll a Merc they are useless. But even if Mercs weren't OP, the bads would still need to roll another FOTM. I remember seeing plenty of Sorcs being Leeroys and trying to tank in pvp. Remember all the Sorc threads about them tanking it or spamming FS that didn't really help the team.

If you play a melee normally, you can actually see most are in a good place and some even better than Mercs if you know what you're doing,

Maras, Operatives and Sins are doing extremely well against Mercs. But you do need to know what you are doing.

PTs not so much considering I was making PT after PT my Bi*c* while playing my lightning Sorc yesterday. Actually I B*t*h slapped a few sins about yesterday too. There were definitely plenty of Leeroys about yesterday.

[TrixxieTriss]

Yeah it would be humorous to me too. But so many melee are Leeroy in spirit, so that more than makes up for them not having his name!

 

I'm tempted to create one and call it Leeroys Sister

[Alex_York]

Do you realize how many threads and posts in the past explained how juggs ER and other dcds work? You know why?

 

Because the same complaints existed about juggs for years, that they had multiple lives and did so much damage and were impossible to kill etc.

 

Fact is, people had to learn when to attack juggs and when not to. When to stun and run, when to attack. This really is no different.

 

People simply fail to recognize when to attack the merc and when not to. They rather cry it's unfair and too hard than actually learn how to work around the mercs dcds.

 

I guess it will take a few years for people to adjust to mercs like they did juggs.

 

I want to see you fight with mara\jugg against any class with stealth, or sniper/merc. You going to lose 10 times out of 10. Perhaps the only classes that are killable with mara\jugg are PT and Sorcs.

[BenitsubasaChiyo]

I want to see you fight with mara\jugg against any class with stealth, or sniper/merc. You going to lose 10 times out of 10. Perhaps the only classes that are killable with mara\jugg are PT and Sorcs.

 

Ehm what? A well played mara is currently one of the best counters to Merc. You're doing something very, VERY wrong there.

[QuiveringPotato]

Ehm what? A well played mara is currently one of the best counters to Merc. You're doing something very, VERY wrong there.

 

That must be a very mediocre merc against some great marauders, then.

[TrixxieTriss]

I want to see you fight with mara\jugg against any class with stealth, or sniper/merc. You going to lose 10 times out of 10. Perhaps the only classes that are killable with mara\jugg are PT and Sorcs.

 

Alex, I have to stop you there. I eat snipers for breakfast on my Mara and lots of Mercs die too. Against stealths it sucks, but only Operatives give me massive headache, Sins not so much, there are tactics to negate them if you have some LoS around.

I think sweeping statements about losing 10 out if 10 are a bit much.

[TrixxieTriss]

Ehm what? A well played mara is currently one of the best counters to Merc. You're doing something very, VERY wrong there.

 

Agreed

[Lhancelot]

Alex, I have to stop you there. I eat snipers for breakfast on my Mara and lots of Mercs die too. Against stealths it sucks, but only Operatives give me massive headache, Sins not so much, there are tactics to negate them if you have some LoS around.

I think sweeping statements about losing 10 out if 10 are a bit much.

 

That's why the nerf threads on any class in the forums always have to be taken with a grain of salt. When they write "10 out of 10 marauders will lose versus a merc", you just have no choice to NOT take it seriously.

 

Please. If you feel a class needs nerfed, then put up logical stats or reasonable anecdotal evidence that supports your thoughts on the matter.

 

Even if it is right or If it's wrong, at least make it sound half reasonable.

 

Nearly every NERF thread on any class is so biased and full of crap it just comes off sounding like a bad wrote it right after rage-quitting a match because they lost to the supposed OP'd class.

[BenitsubasaChiyo]

That must be a very mediocre merc against some great marauders, then.

 

Have you considered the possibility that YOU're in fact may be a very mediocre marauder? Because the absolute majority of mercs are mediocre and any halfway decent player can eat them for breakfast due to hilarious misuse of their dcds and inability to use wz terrain for better positioning and los.

Edited January 22, 2017 by BenitsubasaChiyo

[yellow_]

There is no "learning" with mercs

I'm going to be pedantic and say that you can learn that not attacking into trauma regulators is a less bad option than attacking into it.

 

But it's almost completely beside the point since it's still a bad option and the class has so many other goodies to keep it up between shields that an even better option, in a lot of cases, is to just focus your attention on targets that don't have broken defensive capabilities. And come back for the merc when his friends are dead.

 

Looking forward to more fantasies from players who never touch ranked --and haven't seen what teams with 3+ mercs almost invariably do to teams without mercs-- telling us all again how we just need to get good to deal with mercs.

Edited January 22, 2017 by yellow_

[QuiveringPotato]

I'm going to be pedantic and say that you can learn that not attacking into trauma regulators is a less bad option than attacking into it.

 

But it's almost completely beside the point since it's still a bad option and the class has so many other goodies to keep it up between shields that an even better option, in a lot of cases, is to just focus your attention on targets that don't have broken defensive capabilities. And come back for the merc when his friends are dead.

 

Looking forward to more fantasies from players who never touch ranked --and haven't seen what teams with 3+ mercs almost invariably do to teams without mercs-- telling us all again how we just need to get good to deal with mercs.

 

My point was that the abilities function almost exactly the same as Juggernaut's big DCDs. "Just ignore them" doesn't work against ranged burst classes.

[QuiveringPotato]

Have you considered the possibility that YOU're in fact may be a very mediocre marauder? Because the absolute majority of mercs are mediocre and any halfway decent player can eat them for breakfast due to hilarious misuse of their dcds and inability to use wz terrain for better positioning and los.

 

You don't need to LoS or use proper positioning as a mercenary in 5.0. Hell, your new utilities encourage you to be in the action and to facetank people.

[Lhancelot]

Looking forward to more fantasies from players who never touch ranked --and haven't seen what teams with 3+ mercs almost invariably do to teams without mercs-- telling us all again how we just need to get good to deal with mercs.

 

Your problem is you feel that ranked is the measuring stick as to what is balanced and what is not. This is purely subjective and because you value ranked the most, you place the "balance bar" at the feet of ranked.

 

I could sit here and bloviate about how mercs don't dominate 8v8s anymore than any other class even when stacked, and I feel I would be telling the truth.

 

I have not been steamrolled one time by a pack of premade mercs, not once. I can however tell you I have ran into many 4 man premades of operatives over the years that completely dominated wzs for hours on end.

 

Did this lead me to proclaim how OP'd and unfair operatives are? Nope. I can differentiate OP'd compared to imbalances when ANY class is stacked and even somewhat coordinated in 8v8s.

 

Even though I see mercs are not ravaging regs 8v8s regularly, I also don't say are 100% balanced and working perfectly fine.

 

Obviously in 4v4s their dcds are causing problems due to their individual survival abilities which in 8v8s are not as magnefied. Mercs are not OP'd in regs, period.

 

Bluntly, I DGAF about ranked.

 

It's never been balanced and it's a crappy game mode that has always been exclusive to "FOTM" classes.

 

Seriously, some specs have NEVER had a fair shake in ranked solo and/or group ranked due to severe weaknesses that are easily exploited by the 4v4 meta.

 

 

TL;DR

 

Mercs only need a slight adjustment on their dcds. Ranked is not the measuring stick when judging the balance of classes in PVP.

[Kurj]

In the vein of Leeroy Jenkins, this was added much later but it's pretty funny too imo... it's called "Hitler reacts to Leeroy Jenkins run in..."

 

 

That's awesome, I got a good laugh out of that.

 

Every time I read a "nurf dis overpowered class now !!1!" post, I'm reminded that the vast majority of us are in desperate need of a crisis calling for the full expression of our righteous outrage

[TrixxieTriss]

You don't need to LoS or use proper positioning as a mercenary in 5.0. Hell, your new utilities encourage you to be in the action and to facetank people.

 

And that my boy is why I kill lots of Mercs because they refuse to L2P the class properly. The only Mercs that give me any challenge are the people who were maining Mercs well before 5.0 and learnt to play them properly.

If you didn't L2P a Merc properly in 4.0 or even 3.0, you were dog meat in pvp. So those Mercs now that learned to play before 5.0 are the most deadly opponents on the battle field.

It's a shame they are few and far between because there were only a few people willing to play Mercs and forgo the FOTM classes in 4.0.

I never play FOTM classes/specs if I can help it, so I played my Merc a fair bit as well as my Lightning Sorc in 4.0. I can be fairly deadly on my Merc, not because of the new DCDs, but because I know how to position and LoS. I very rarely even need to use my DCDs. But for me the Merc has been ruined by the FOTM status, so I'm back to maining my Sorc/Sage and my Mara.

[TrixxieTriss]

Your problem is you feel that ranked is the measuring stick as to what is balanced and what is not. This is purely subjective and because you value ranked the most, you place the "balance bar" at the feet of ranked.

 

I could sit here and bloviate about how mercs don't dominate 8v8s anymore than any other class even when stacked, and I feel I would be telling the truth.

 

I have not been steamrolled one time by a pack of premade mercs, not once. I can however tell you I have ran into many 4 man premades of operatives over the years that completely dominated wzs for hours on end.

 

Did this lead me to proclaim how OP'd and unfair operatives are? Nope. I can differentiate OP'd compared to imbalances when ANY class is stacked and even somewhat coordinated in 8v8s.

 

Even though I see mercs are not ravaging regs 8v8s regularly, I also don't say are 100% balanced and working perfectly fine.

 

Obviously in 4v4s their dcds are causing problems due to their individual survival abilities which in 8v8s are not as magnefied. Mercs are not OP'd in regs, period.

 

Bluntly, I DGAF about ranked.

 

It's never been balanced and it's a crappy game mode that has always been exclusive to "FOTM" classes.

 

Seriously, some specs have NEVER had a fair shake in ranked solo and/or group ranked due to severe weaknesses that are easily exploited by the 4v4 meta.

 

 

TL;DR

 

Mercs only need a slight adjustment on their dcds. Ranked is not the measuring stick when judging the balance of classes in PVP.

 

There are two balances in pvp, those that are balanced for objective pvp and those that are balanced for ranked.

That's because certain classes or specs are support/utility specs that aren't as suited for ranked as some of the easier classes.

Bio usually give the player base 4 main advanced classes to play ranked with, but only certain specs. There may also be 1 or 2 other classes that can be viable in the hands of exceptional players.

While those classes balanced for ranked can seem OP in objective pvp, they aren't always. What makes them so good in ranked does not always make them that good in objective pvp. This is where the rest of the classes can shine.

Take my TK/Lightning Sage/Sorc, she is a deadly weapon in objective pvp. Sure she's not a straight up dps dealer, but that's not her role, she's a utility class.

While I would love it if all classes were balanced enough to be viable in ranked, I don't see it ever happening. If my Sage/Sorc was balanced for Ranked she would be unstoppable in objective pvp and people would call for the nerfs because they were getting owned.

Unfortunately there is always one class they make a little OP and that one class stands out the most in regs, not because it's OP, but because people make it a FOTM class and everyone has one. When you put a bunch of the same class together, even if they aren't OP, they will be a force to be reckoned with.

Merc seem OP because people can't global them like they used to in regs and because there are so many stacked each match. But in reality they aren't that over the top, no more than some others.

I actually think Operatives are the winners in objective pvp. They are a hard hitting burst spec with some great escape and defensive measures. They can be extremely hard to counter if your DCDs are already blown and they can hold up a node cap against most of the other team. People like Snave have demonstrated this over and over.

So while Mercs are abundant at the moment, most are bad or mediocre and rely too heavily on people Merc stacking and DCDs. They aren't learning to play properly and I think people are realising this and have adjusted tactics to compensate.

Give it another month and we'll probably see a lot less Mercs are OP (especially in objective pvp) because people will know how to kill them. Then the only challenging Mercs will be the people who learnt to play them properly.