Are the devs still on holiday? No comment in almost a week

[DarthWoad]

http://www.swtor.com/community/devtracker.php

 

The last post was last Thursday, 6 days ago. I thought they were going to start communicating with us more on the forums, acknowledging issues and ideas and commenting on our suggestions?

 

It makes me sad how little communication there is.

[AllisonLightning]

http://www.swtor.com/community/devtracker.php

 

The last post was last Thursday, 6 days ago. I thought they were going to start communicating with us more on the forums, acknowledging issues and ideas and commenting on our suggestions?

 

It makes me sad how little communication there is.

 

You thought they were going to ... oh, honey- no, they are not going to communicate with us more. They are trying to figure out how to keep their Command Rank gearing eldritch creation. They can't spare any time for us.

[LordPaulusCobris]

http://www.swtor.com/community/devtracker.php

 

The last post was last Thursday, 6 days ago. I thought they were going to start communicating with us more on the forums, acknowledging issues and ideas and commenting on our suggestions?

 

It makes me sad how little communication there is.

 

My New Year Resolution...

 

Complete Overhall of the BWA staff... Fire Musco, put someone there that actually knows what is doing...

Get some good community mods and representatives, that actually care about the persons that use and pay their software...

 

Please please please... i will be a good boy this year...

 

Best Regards,

 

LPC

[Ryenke]

http://www.swtor.com/community/devtracker.php

 

The last post was last Thursday, 6 days ago. I thought they were going to start communicating with us more on the forums, acknowledging issues and ideas and commenting on our suggestions?

 

It makes me sad how little communication there is.

 

LOL, that is funny!

[AscendingSky]

You thought they were going to ... oh, honey- no, they are not going to communicate with us more. They are trying to figure out how to keep their Command Rank gearing eldritch creation. They can't spare any time for us.

 

This. That, and they weren't able to take their usual month and a half winter vacation as usual, and were actually obligated to do some kriffing work in December due to the huge backlash about their craptacular Galactic Command system. So they may be finally taking it now.

[Talon_strikes]

Their studio opened last week on Wednesday, so no, they're not on holidays anymore. As for expecting them to communicate, well, you know what they say, "If you have nothing nice to say then don't say anything at all." Edited January 11, 2017 by Talon_strikes

[Lium]

Lack of communication has been and will continue to be a real problem here. They don't even communicate on social media, which is where most CMs and devs talk to players these days.

 

I love this game but it's beginning to feel lifeless.

[Costello]

I don't think they care.

 

But lets be fare, I'm sure they look at games like ESO and figure they would prefer to play it that ToR and they work here, so why bother trying to pretend otherwise.

[Sundragon]

Does your enjoyment of the game improve when the developers comment and acknowledge your existence and commentary?

[Andryah]

I don't think they care.

 

If they did not care, then we would NEVER see any gold posts in the forum.. ever... because that is what not caring is... complete silence.

 

What we do get is just not enough interaction to satisfy some. But this would always be the case in a gaming forum, for any game, by any studio. Sure some interact more, but so what, we are in this forum which is for this game by this studio.

 

But you know what.... applying the 80/20 rules works here ... about 80% of everything on this forum is directed at the studio in a pejorative or challenging fashion. And while many of us allow ourselves to be sucked into the nonsense and get trolled... the studio does not. The other 20% is actually productive discussion between members until the inevitable name calling, venting, and attacks begin because someone expresses opinions someone else does not agree with and people begin venting their frustrations with the game on each other rather then accept that there are different opinions on things.. and it' supposed to be a discussion which generally will include divergence of opinions... even on topics everyone basically agrees with in terms of theme of the topic. .

 

People try very hard to troll the studio..... but you have to admire the studios discipline in avoiding being trolled.

 

Personally, I am more interested in what they have to say when they DO interact, rather then trying to troll them to get a response on some given pet peeve someone has.... including the ever popular pet peeve about wanting more interactions with the studio on the forum.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Andryah

[GirlKiss]

But you know what.... applying the 80/20 rules works here ... about 80% of everything on this forum is directed at the studio in a pejorative or challenging fashion. And while many of us allow ourselves to be sucked into the nonsense and get trolled... the studio does not. The other 20% is actually productive discussion between members until the inevitable name calling, venting, and attacks begin because someone expresses opinions someone else does not agree with and people begin venting their frustrations with the game on each other rather then accept that there are different opinions on things.. and it' supposed to be a discussion which generally will include divergence of opinions... even on topics everyone basically agrees with in terms of theme of the topic. .

 

And you got the info from...? Where are the new ops? Plz, stop defending them, mighty whitey knight

[DanNV]

You thought they were going to ... oh, honey- no, they are not going to communicate with us more. They are trying to figure out how to keep their Command Rank gearing eldritch creation. They can't spare any time for us.

 

This about covers it. Although I expect they are also writing resumes.

[Costello]

If they did not care, then we would NEVER see any gold posts in the forum.. ever... because that is what not caring is... complete silence.

 

What we do get is just not enough interaction to satisfy some. But this would always be the case in a gaming forum, for any game, by any studio. Sure some interact more, but so what, we are in this forum which is for this game by this studio.

 

But you know what.... applying the 80/20 rules works here ... about 80% of everything on this forum is directed at the studio in a pejorative or challenging fashion. And while many of us allow ourselves to be sucked into the nonsense and get trolled... the studio does not. The other 20% is actually productive discussion between members until the inevitable name calling, venting, and attacks begin because someone expresses opinions someone else does not agree with and people begin venting their frustrations with the game on each other rather then accept that there are different opinions on things.. and it' supposed to be a discussion which generally will include divergence of opinions... even on topics everyone basically agrees with in terms of theme of the topic. .

 

People try very hard to troll the studio..... but you have to admire the studios discipline in avoiding being trolled.

 

Personally, I am more interested in what they have to say when they DO interact, rather then trying to troll them to get a response on some given pet peeve someone has.... including the ever popular pet peeve about wanting more interactions with the studio on the forum.

 

You equate indifference as a virtue of not getting involved in a discussion about the game?

 

And when they do interact through the 'Steam Dream Team' they don't address any of the issues or pick a minor aspect of the problem and offer an incomplete fix for it. But that is no doubt the virtue of focus, right?

 

If it wasn't their job to liaise with the community, sure then they don't have to. But to suggest that a couple of posts a month is showing they are committed to this game is a joke. I don't expect to get paid at my job if I did nothing, so to suggest that doing the minimum to meet your job requirements shows that they are passionate about making this game the best and most enjoyable experience it can be is folly.

 

They don't have to come in this thread and post if its too trollish, but there are a myriad of posts both witty and insightful that explain the issues that they could engage in. Most people are smart enough to realize now the legacy grind is well and truly done they need a new end game progression system. With the lack of new end game content it will have to be a grind of old content. People understand that but to tie it too 300+ levels of random gear, that aside from the chance to get 4 set of the exact same piece and none of any of the others and the higher chance of getting green and blue junk they stuck 3 tiers in so you have to grind out 180 levels before you can even start getting the end tier gear. Stick an end game grind in, make it 5 year old content but don't make random lock boxes where 300 levels and you still may not be done.

 

But instead of discussing this with the community they schedule a patch that doesn't really help the issue for most players (since they have done there best to ignore the raiding community) two months after launch. That must give some indication where on their list of priorities even a minor step towards making the system workable is. But no doubt that a virtue of patience. Its funny cause the laziest people in the world have this virtue as well, only its seldom seen as a virtue.

[BenduKundalini]

Scrambling on Linkedin?

[Psychopyro]

Pretty sure they were going to "Communicate" more with us the last 4 and a half years....

 

GC seems like they are "Communicating" they don't want us around anymore..

[Joonbeams]

The lack of communication from the studio is a VERY VERY VERY bad sign. Lemme repeat, this is a VERY VERY VERY bad sign. I don't have much experience with MMO forums or gaming forums generally, but I do have extensive experience with customer relations in the professional and tech worlds. And in my experience, this level of customer interaction ALWAYS can be broken down into one of two categories, both of which are bad: 1) incompetence and/or 2) indifference. There is no third option. And, both are usually related to financial constraints (which is an additional reason why this is always bad). Lemme explain.

 

INCOMPETENCE

Certain types of incompetence can be dismissed right away: devs can't click the keys, they don't know how to type, etc. Other types of incompetence are also unlikely (e.g. they don't know that this is something that should be done, they don't like money, etc.). But there are types of incompetence that COULD be at play here (note: not saying IS in play). And this is: 1) arrogance (we don't need to communicate, there's nothing that we can gain from it, 2) short-sightedness (we don't need to communicate just yet, we'll wait till we have something big to say), 3) vagueness (it's better if we just continue to avoid giving any specifics on anything), 4) resource-constraints - (we have the custodial team answering CS phones because we don't have enough resources).

 

And I could go on, but the point is not to be exhaustive of the possibilities. The point is that, if we assume the organization isn't indifferent (below), then only "incompetence" in a more narrow sense as above, can explain the current inaction. Otw, an organization like this, if well-resourced would fix these issues because it makes sound business sense to keep customers happy. And the data is overwhelming, staggeringly overwhelming and known to everyone in the tech world, that customer satisfaction is the alpha and omega of long-term success.

 

So, IMHO, this is NOT about incompetence. I think the devs (and likely the bigger organization) understand what's right here, at least in a broad sense. So if incompetence is in play at all, it's due to limited resources only, IMHO. Which leaves us with:

 

INDIFFERENCE

Again, we can reject certain types of indifference right away too. For example, they did develop and release an expansion. Even if you don't like it, it can't be argued that the indifference goes to this level. Also, "they don't care about us or SW" or "they hate customers" is thin and weak, IMO. I believe the people behind this game very much care about giving the best product they have the resources to give (and I mean devs & team, not higher ups per se).

 

But then there are some types that, again, COULD be in play here: 1) You're stuck - I.e. we have the exclusive license, so if you want to play SW games, or in particular a SW MMO, you can't go to any competitors (take a look at US corporate history and exclusive licence holders - very seldom do they act favorably toward end users.), 2) We don't have the time/resources to spend on this game right now - we're thinly staffed, higher-ups have given up, our budget is less than our expenses, we need to deploy people to other projects, etc. This can still be true AND the studio still put out "something" on a regular basis. So, again, thin resources can affect both incompetence and indifference.

 

THE DEVS CARE BUT LACK RESOURCES

FWIW, I believe these devs DO care and really want to deliver something amazing, which leads me to conclude this is indifference, but at the higher up/budget decision level and is due to some combo of exclusive license (~20%) and lack of resources (~80%). There are many signs which point to this being a resource-constraint issue - not worth getting into here. But giving even a generous look at the unit economics of the most generous estimates of subscribed, active base in light of costs of content creation (initially and ongoing), support and maintenance, personnel, etc. strongly suggests that the most optimistic ROI projections likely won't be enough to convince higher ups that a big budget is a sound fiscal option here - not for a company with regular reporting, growth obligations to shareholders, and so on. And especially not when you can have cash printers like FIFA Ultimate Team and the like with so much less up front and ongoing costs that literally print greenbacks.

 

Nonetheless, this is bad for the long-term health of the game. Could say more, but RL beckons again...

[Psychopyro]

INCOMPETENCE

INDIFFERENCE

THE DEVS CARE BUT LACK RESOURCES

 

It really has nothing to do with any of these... The problem is EA policy. Anyone who has dealt with EA on any long term level knows that their policy (as long as the money is coming in), is to ignore, deny, and not comment. Company motto I swear is literally "Don't say anything unless we get sued, and then say even less if we do".....

 

EA has a bad track record of customer interaction, response, and service. If I had to say the problem was anything, it's called POLICY.

[Andryah]

And you got the info from...? Where are the new ops? Plz, stop defending them, mighty whitey knight

 

How did we get on the subject of new OPs?

 

Have you not figured out yet... they are not coming. If you think they are.... I have waterfront property in the Mohave desert I would like to offer to sell you.

 

And sorry to break it to you.. but not every comment that does not center on burning down the studio = being a "mighty whitey knight". I will say though.. you immaturity comes through loud and clear.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Andryah

[Andryah]

You equate indifference as a virtue of not getting involved in a discussion about the game?

 

Not at all.

 

I do however applaud their ability to stay out of getting trolled in the forum. Not every company or individual is capable of doing that.

 

Seriously, if they are as bad as you portray them, then go play an MMO from a studio you actually respect. How hard is that to do? You have lots of choices.. or maybe you grind out the same messaging in every gaming forum. /shrug

[dr_mike]

In their defense (and if you know anything about my history around here, I say this with a very very dirty taste in my mouth and it;s not from this cruddy coffee I;m drinking) they did jump on the crashing of Shadowlands fairly quickly.

[Costello]

Not at all.

 

I do however applaud their ability to stay out of getting trolled in the forum. Not every company or individual is capable of doing that.

 

Seriously, if they are as bad as you portray them, then go play an MMO from a studio you actually respect. How hard is that to do? You have lots of choices.. or maybe you grind out the same messaging in every gaming forum. /shrug

 

It would be nice to see a company that was passionate about their product and thought it worth defending.

 

As it stands it seems that a few white knights defend everything they do as amazing, when they themselves can't be bothered. Though even your defense is more telling me why I should go elsewhere than showing that the team here are going to make the game great or act on feedback.

 

I have taken your suggestion on board and am very much enjoying myself in ESO, though sadly have to wait till February for the next expansion. I have a suggestion for you, how about you try out ESO and see what a difference a team that took player feedback on board and worked out an end game advancement system that rewarded every level, created a crafting system that allowed the same quality of gear as PvP or end game PvE, has open world PvPvE and next expansion is bringing in 39 houses that have an actual presence in the game world.

 

Give that a go and then compare it to tor and then decide if this seems like a dedicated team that want to make this the best experience it can be, or opted to have people grind out 1.23 million xp in 5 year old content that will likely take more than a year of grinding (Outside of exploits and win trading at PvP).

[Andryah]

I have a suggestion for you, how about you try out ESO and see what a difference a team that took player feedback on board and worked out an end game advancement system that rewarded every level, created a crafting system that allowed the same quality of gear as PvP or end game PvE, has open world PvPvE and next expansion is bringing in 39 houses that have an actual presence in the game world.

 

Give that a go and then compare it to tor and then decide if this seems like a dedicated team that want to make this the best experience it can be, or opted to have people grind out 1.23 million xp in 5 year old content that will likely take more than a year of grinding (Outside of exploits and win trading at PvP).

 

I have in fact tried ESO twice now. Disappointed both times. Same with FFXIV. Sorry, but they are not the holy grail of MMOs... though I understand some peoples interests in them. And you know what.. I did not linger in their forums and trash them for making an MMO that does not suit my tastes... I simply moved on. Same with TSW... even though I am a lifetime member.... it simply is not a good enough MMO for my personal tastes. Same with GW2. I do still play LoTRO sometimes as it still has good nostalgia for me after all these years, and represents a change of pace.

 

Unlike some.. I am not dependent on a studio portraying "passion" for their product to make me feel good about what I play or how I play. Maybe because I understand that MMOs are a business, not a hobby, and with a wide range of players... not everyone is going to be satisfied. MMOs are imperfect beasts and always will be.

 

As for being forced to grind out Cxp... sorry .. but that simply is not required to play this game and enjoy it. I'm ignoring it until such time as they actually fix the mess they made. Many other players are as well, and my entire guild certainly is.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Andryah

[Joonbeams]

For whatever reasons, likely fiscal, this company (EA in particular) has decided not to further dedicate the resources needed to keep this an growing and thriving, subscription-based, MMO. I don't really think that's debatable at this point. IMHO, it's kinda silly to pretend otherwise -- other than the proverbial "smoking gun," the circumstantial data is overwhelming that this is the case. And it's pretty much a chicken-egg question as to why: company "pulling plug" too early vs. players bailing to early.

 

So given that, as consumers, we have to decide if this new state of affairs of semi regular generic story updates with occasional "less-than-ops" group content, coupled with the expected bugs, glitches, lack of communication, and fits and starts with being underresourced, keeps us sufficiently entertained to warrant the monthly sub. As I've said repeatedly, for me it's a no-brainer value prop, even when weeks pass without stepping foot into the game. When I break down what $15 buys me in leisurely escape value per dollar, especially not having touched still in 5 years more than a fraction of this game, it's still probably the best entertainment value for dollar that I get - maybe Netflix is first.

 

I know I'm not representative, but the point remains. We all need to re-calibrate expectations to the lowest level (don't expect bug fixes to happen rapidly, minimal communication, no new ops, no individual class story arcs, continued recycling of older content, etc.). Then decide, given that new expectation set, do we still want to stay subbed? I've decided that all told I'm still okay with it. And what's nicer, if anything deviates unexpectedly in our favor, you can feel pleasantly surprised!

[PlasmaJohn]

We all need to re-calibrate expectations to the lowest level

Oh those expectations have been. Three unprecedented emergency livestreams during their traditional Winter hibernation seems to be a fairly good indicator that a large enough chunk of subscribers have voted with their wallets. Players have set their expectations to the level that Austin will not provide them with enough entertainment to justify their paltry $13-15/mo.

 

don't expect bug fixes to happen rapidly, minimal communication, no new ops, no individual class story arcs, continued recycling of older content, etc.!

Communication -is- the problem. They talk AT the playerbase whenever they feel like it and never WITH the players like a professional service organization would. They let issues fester far too long and outright ignore serious problems for fluff.

 

Instead of talking with their customers they rely far too much on metrics to drive development. They use what feels like a very literal interpretation of those metrics instead of even trying to do a minimal root cause analysis. It's so bad they're getting accused of cooking the books to show that players are or are not interested in certain aspects.

 

Communication requires a dialog. Anything else is guessing. Guess wrong and the response eventually becomes a career ending "vote of no confidence".

[DanNV]

Communication -is- the problem. They talk AT the playerbase whenever they feel like it and never WITH the players like a professional service organization would. They let issues fester far too long and outright ignore serious problems for fluff.

 

Yep. Communication is something BW has not been good at since launch. It's just gotten worse over time. The last time BW seriously sat down with their paying customers and talked with them was the guild summit in 2012. Every BWA employee should go back and watch those vidoes. They promised all sorts of things in response ot player feedback and a big chunk of players voting with their feet. Some of those promises they have kept and some they never even attempted. Others they have since broken and never explained why. I expect that is a good part of why no one trusts them.

 

Instead of talking with their customers they rely far too much on metrics to drive development. They use what feels like a very literal interpretation of those metrics instead of even trying to do a minimal root cause analysis. It's so bad they're getting accused of cooking the books to show that players are or are not interested in certain aspects.

 

The sad thing is, they cook the books before they collect the data. They create an event to get the metrics they want, then collect the data and amazingly enough those metrics show what they wanted them to. But it gives them an excuse when EA share holders ask what the hell they are doing.

 

Communication requires a dialog. Anything else is guessing. Guess wrong and the response eventually becomes a career ending "vote of no confidence".

 

Exactly. BW is not good at dialogue and hasn't been. Up until now they had a bunch of people willing to put up with it for the game content, but now they have added the grind from hell on that old content. The wort part is they were told it would be a problem and still did it.