Groupfinder and Tanks...in dps gear

[Kyuuu]

For last month I been get alot Group finder hm pops with TANK's in DPS gear or Tanks in DPS spec and then when you ask them about there like so?

 

I dont appreciated waiting 30+ minutes for pop just to have to leave it cause the "tank" is in dps gear or dps spec. Nor do the heals appreciate healing such people. or having to heal the DPS that are actual DPS cause they have argo.

 

I am thinking then need to make Group finder set your role depending on your SPEC and CHECK to make sure appropriate gear is worn before it POP's other wise waste the time of EVERYONE that got the pop and give lock out should that not be there, but implemented in to WZ

[Khevar]

It's intended to be used by a player queuing for both roles, then using the field respec to switch to the role that popped.

 

Recently, I've been queuing as a healer, and more than once I've had another player in the group who was ALSO a healer, had queued for both roles, and happily respecced to DPS. No problems.

 

What you're suggesting won't fix people that insist on being bad players. That dps you ran into that wanted a faster queue? They could easily queue as Darkness, then switch back to Deception after the pop. And you'd be right back here with the same complaints.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Khevar

[lobstah_rofls]

Other games just don't allow this sort of crap.

 

This is just another example of how the SWTOR group finder should really embarrass Bioware, I can't think of a worse one from any of their competition. They are more than a few years behind industry standards.

[Halinalle]

That would not work. There would still be a way to game a system, explained by poster above.

 

And how do you know it's tank in dps gear? Do you check the actual gear or just accuracy?

 

If you only check accuracy, please also check if tank is Shadow/Assassin. Because there's still this really weird bug that affects only some of the Shadow/Assassin tanks. Bug causes their stance to be applied twice = 121% accuracy, which you would also see on someone who is in tank spec but in dps gear.

 

This same bug also affects Infiltration/Deception. The reason why you see it on top of parse leaderboards.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Halinalle

[lobstah_rofls]

Well most other games went cross-server queing years ago. So there is no reason to 'game the system' to get faster que pops because you can always get reasonably fast que pops.

 

FFXIV, tanks and healers are almost always somewere between instant and under 5 minutes. DPS is actually a somewhat longer que in prime time, generally ~15 minutes, whereas it's actually better in off hours at 5-10ish minutes.

 

The whole idea of a tank 'gaming the system' for faster que pops is just crazy. Only in SWTOR. Everybody else solved this genre crucial game system years ago.

[Halinalle]

Cross server would not help. Yes, you would get more healers and tanks in same queue but there would be all the damage dealers from other servers too.

 

Add to that very hostile Sentinel/Marauder players (main reason why most of the tanks and healers don't want to do group content with pugs), players who add tank and/or healer to ignore for smallest of mistakes, etc. It just wouldn't work.

 

Also idea of getting to try operation on server located on other side of the world. I have ~190 ms latency on Harbinger. 70-80 ms is normal for me in this game. 100+ ms is unacceptable in multiplayer games especially when we are talking about mechanics where moving fast enough is required.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Halinalle

[Kyuuu]

yes I check the gear the Tank had darkness spec cause I saw the procs and buffs for and they was wearing Crit/accuracy geat not single peice of tank gear. not one piece of shield/absorb/def none

 

IN hardmode there need to be some check Wait time are bad enough when tanks or really any spec pick role then say it dont mater, followed by everyone leaves and get lock out cause there is no check in place. It been happen way to frequent. it dont mater in flashpoints but IN Hardmode anything or OPS

 

People Specs should dictate what role they are and in the CASE of tanks there should be Gear check to make sure the tank is wearing take gear BEFORE it match then up with other people that could been waiting 30+ minutes

 

Then again it not Cartel Issue BW dont care.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Kyuuu

[Khevar]

Cross server would not help.

I've seen a number of people argue against cross-server queues. Until I played FFXIV, I had no experience in the matter, so I didn't really have an opinion. But now? I can say with confidence that cross-server queues would be a tremendous boon to this game, particularly on low-population servers.

 

I play FFXIV on Goblin, which is one of the least populated servers in their North American datacenter. And yet, my queue pops as a dps are about 10-15 minutes, on average. The same as any other dps on any other server in the datacenter. Had cross-server queues not existed in FFXIV, my choice of server would have made the game practically unplayable.

 

Other than any potential inability to code it into the SWTOR engine, there is no good reason NOT to have it.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Khevar

[Halinalle]

- Switch to generic green/blue tanking gear

- Queue with both roles selected

- Queue pops and you're tank

- Travel Now

- Switch to dps spec/gear

 

Done.

 

There may be technical barriers that prevent it's implementation. But other than any potential inability to code it into the SWTOR engine, I can say with confidence that there is no good reason NOT to have it.

 

Yes there is:

I don't want to end up connecting to Harbinger and playing any group content with 190 ms latency. No, not even veteran mode FPs.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Halinalle

[Khevar]

I don't want to end up connecting to Harbinger and playing any group content with 190 ms latency. No, not even veteran mode FPs.

Not sure how SWTOR does it, but FFXIV has only 6 data centers for it's 64 different servers.

 

You do not share a queue with different data centers, only the servers in the same data center.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Khevar

[Shrodinher]

No tank in their right mind does solo content in tank gear if he has a choice. Tank spec with crit/power/ala gear == relaxed hazardless cruise through anything solo, with decent damage and great protection, with dps companion. Some don't like it though and they go full dps spec && gear. For healers it's even worse, so it's almost always beneficial to go dps spec (gear can remain same, however).

What happens if changes proposed are implemented? Tanks and healers, should they want to queue for group content, are crippled in their solo endeavours, limited to turtle speed, extremely dissatisfying and depressing. Having to change spec and/or gear for undefined amount of time just to queue is a burden, especially since respeccing in swtor is so horrible. And no, we can't wait those 5 minutes for pop -- specifically because there's no guarantee. Ever had to sit in queue for random HM FP for half an hour in a group of tank+healer+dps? I did. Multiple times. Not fun at all. Y'know what would be even worse? Having to not do anything during that time, or do it in "proper" spec && gear which is unbearable.

Overall, change with result only in reduced amount of players interested in queueing as tank/healer, worsening the problem.

 

Also, some of you dunderheads refer other games, so guess what, they do not have any checks in place even with crossserver. WoW? Multispec is comfy as ****, you can queue as whatever your class allows, no check for gear (not that you can really check it in wow), no check for spec in any group finder content. Wildstar -- has assault/support gear separation and guess what, not checked by system, as well as spec. Both games have cross server (and, in case of Wildstar, cross faction) so queue times aren't a problem at all.

 

So quit crying over something that is realistically impossible to fix. There are issues with group finder, but not with role stuff. Tank not being a tank really isn't worse than tank in tank gear that has no idea what he is doing, or healer just spamming dark heal once per 5 seconds and ******* in between, or pt dps that spams rapid shots from 30m range. Any possible "fix" for the system will either make queues even worse, or at best will just prohibit entering instance, meaning that it will save you repair funds for 1st trash pack wipe but will take as much time.

 

Actually helpful advice 1: get tank/healer friends or become one.

Actually helpful advice 2: learn how to tank via your companion (you'll be surprised how better they are than 95% of tanks in the game).

Actually helpful advice 3: getting into instance is already cool, even if you have to kick tank, it means replacement is more likely && fast than getting fresh group (and you don't have to stay inside instance while waiting).

[merovejec]

Gear is irrelevant in SM ops, you get bolster but the tank should change to tank discipline, that's true, more is not needed.

[aerockyul]

I'm fine with it if the dps that queued as tank or healer ACTUALLY respecs. Too often what I see are the "tanks/healers" who refuse to respec at all. Those are the people I wouldn't have a problem kicking and replacing with a companion. The companion will do the job better AND likely out-dps them.

 

Aggravating example: Directive 7 where I'm a mid-20 level dps (non-offtanking abilities) with a 40 dps (also non-offtanking), a fresh 20 healer, and a 40 "tank" who shows up in dps stance. He just stands there not attacking, waiting for me and the other dps to move first. We get fed up waiting and do, I die first, then the poor healer who did not have much of a chance, then the other dps (this was on the trash pull at the gate with the two turrets, btw). I ask if he's going to switch into tank stance (at the least) and he simply replies "no." If Bioware had installed a button for me to syphon repair costs from people like that, I might have stuck around.

[psandak]

I've seen a number of people argue against cross-server queues. Until I played FFXIV, I had no experience in the matter, so I didn't really have an opinion. But now? I can say with confidence that cross-server queues would be a tremendous boon to this game, particularly on low-population servers.

 

I play FFXIV on Goblin, which is one of the least populated servers in their North American datacenter. And yet, my queue pops as a dps are about 10-15 minutes, on average. The same as any other dps on any other server in the datacenter. Had cross-server queues not existed in FFXIV, my choice of server would have made the game practically unplayable.

 

Other than any potential inability to code it into the SWTOR engine, there is no good reason NOT to have it.

 

I have had experience with both in the same game: WoW. pre and post cross server queues saw little to no change in queue times. What did GREATLY impact queue times was incentives for players to queue in underrepresented roles. i.e. if the queue was light on tanks, the system would state as much in the dungeon queue interface, and if one queued and completed a dungeon in the tanking role they would get a goodie bag with random stuff with a chance at rare items.

 

The result: DPS queue times were cut by 3/4 to start. HOWEVER, there were a LOT of bad tanks and healers to start with. Eventually, players either got better or went back to queuing as DPS, but the balanced improvement was still a 50% reduction in DPS queue times (40-60 minutes to 20-30 minutes)

 

But there was something that Cross server queues did do: created an environment of selfishness. Because the chances of seeing the same people in group again was nil, too many players decided to be selfish and clicked NEED on everything. Eventually a system of gear restriction had to be implemented whereby class and role determined what gear one could click need on.

Edited December 29, 2016 by psandak

[Iffyluse]

It baffles me that such dps muppets that queue as tanks actually think it somehow is gonna help them to do a fp. I mean whats their plan really? They pop into the flashpoint and think that nobody will notice? Serious flaw in that plan. Had it happen a couple of times, it's not that big of a deal, keep calm and votekick. Even had one guy be like "omg why u kick me". These people have no clue. Edited December 29, 2016 by Iffyluse

[Khevar]

I have had experience with both in the same game: WoW. pre and post cross server queues saw little to no change in queue times.

Were you playing on a higher population server? Or a lower population server?

 

The active population of Goblin in FFXIV is such that in the absence of cross-server queues, I would have had a very, very, very hard time to find a group. And the unfortunate thing is that they have actual story quests gated behind a handful of dungeons, world bosses and a few raids.

 

Meaning that had I NOT been able to find a group, I would have been dead in the water. Blocked from progressing my character at all.

 

My guess would be, with WoW, the higher population servers saw no change, but the lower-population servers saw an improvement.

But there was something that Cross server queues did do: created an environment of selfishness.

Well, again going back to FFXIV (that being the only cross-server queues I've experienced), they have two features that seem to help prevent this sort of thing:

 

1. The most important drop is end-game currency, which is automatically awarded to every player. The individual gear items that drop in the dungeons, (for a high level player queuing through the duty roulette), are not likely to be gear upgrades. Meaning that the lower-level player has an even greater chance of obtaining that gear.

 

2. Whenever a player enters a dungeon or trial or raid for the very first time, the OTHER players all receive a significant bonus to their currency rewards. As well as other bonuses. So if you ever queue for the Duty Finder, and you see the message about a "New Player Bonus", everyone is excited.

 

So this selfishness you describe through cross-server group finder? FFXIV seems to have, in my personal experience, solved it. Seeing as how I never experienced it in that game.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Khevar

[Renata_Roselli]

I prefer 3 DPS, one that can que as tank so that we can burn bosses faster. Doing HM Uprisings and FPs go by a lot quicker with three DPS.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I fear that "DPS in tank gear" is kind of a fashion that dropped over from PvP.

In the last season, some tank classes were a bit overpowered, so that they could do even more damage while in DPS gear than pure DPS classes themselves.