Concerned with opped mercs/commando? Time to inform bioware

[sithBracer]

Bonk the only thing op and 100% overkill on mercs atm is trauma regulators it's not needed at all on any spec.

 

^this.

/bonk

Edited December 27, 2016 by sithBracer

[DariusCalera]

Nice ad homonym there. If there is something particular you don't like about my data let me know and I will change it. I am taking all the data that is available and presenting it as it is. You are the one who is taking the cherry picked data by only looking at the top 10 people and making an assumption just on that. As for rant after rant? Once again that is you. You probably have more l2p rants in one day than I have throughout 5.0. But why not back up your claims by adding links to all my long and horrible rants?

 

 

 

Once again all the numbers are there. If it is so easy why is it that out of over 10,000 players around 4,000 players got over 1200 and only 700 players made it over 1400? Simply looking at the leaderboards and you will see a very small percentage of people that have over 1400 have a low win count. I would say the average is 50-60 wins, but I could make a chart of that as well since I parsed all the data.

 

As for the cxp farming thing, it still doesn't explain why mercs and snipers are the only outliers. Why is the assassin graph looking the way it is? Why is the super mega hyper OP sorc (in your little world) have such a shrinking graph esp in the 1400s? Why isn't marauder going up as much? So far you have no explanation other than "uhhh look at the top ten". You know in season 7 there was only one PT in the top 10 and 2 operatives. So according to this operatives were more OP than PTs right?

 

While you might have used the available data, you ended up comparing an entire class, merc/mandos, to a single spec, healing sorc/sages.

 

Since there is no way to differentiate between what spec a person is playing any attempt to split and compare classes vs specs is going to be flawed.

[sithBracer]

While you might have used the available data, you ended up comparing an entire class, merc/mandos, to a single spec, healing sorc/sages.

 

Since there is no way to differentiate between what spec a person is playing any attempt to split and compare classes vs specs is going to be flawed.

 

Yeah, that is the flaw with their leaderboards, they only show class and not spec, which is why the stuff I said is just an assumption and not absolute fact.

 

The sorc piece of the graph is definitely the most unusual one. There is a pretty sharp drop off at 1200 and 1400 and a large pickup in the 1600. This class doesn't follow the trends that other classes follow. So my assumption about that class is that the dps is very bad and the healing is too good. If you look at the hard numbers only 40 sorcs got above 1600, its not too far-fetched to believe that a majority of those sorcs are healers who most of us can agree are definitely the #1 healer in the game atm. While the sorcs in the 1200s and 1400s are more of a mix in which case the dps specs drag down the entire class. The dropoff in the 1200-1400 seems to be the highest followed by 1400-1600. From that we can assume (using anecdotal evidence of course since we don't have any hard evidence) that most of the people stuck in the lower ranks are dps and a disproportionate amount of the sorcs in the higher ranks are healers. As I mentioned there are only 40 who got above 1600, so its not hard to imagine that maybe 28-30 of them are healers.

 

These are just my interpretations of the numbers that we have available and my experiences in pvp. I'm sure other people can see other interpretations and I'm sure there are some questions we cannot answer simply due to the fact that BW isn't giving out that much information.

[DariusCalera]

Yeah, that is the flaw with their leaderboards, they only show class and not spec, which is why the stuff I said is just an assumption and not absolute fact.

 

The sorc piece of the graph is definitely the most unusual one. There is a pretty sharp drop off at 1200 and 1400 and a large pickup in the 1600. This class doesn't follow the trends that other classes follow. So my assumption about that class is that the dps is very bad and the healing is too good. If you look at the hard numbers only 40 sorcs got above 1600, its not too far-fetched to believe that a majority of those sorcs are healers who most of us can agree are definitely the #1 healer in the game atm. While the sorcs in the 1200s and 1400s are more of a mix in which case the dps specs drag down the entire class. The dropoff in the 1200-1400 seems to be the highest followed by 1400-1600. From that we can assume (using anecdotal evidence of course since we don't have any hard evidence) that most of the people stuck in the lower ranks are dps and a disproportionate amount of the sorcs in the higher ranks are healers. As I mentioned there are only 40 who got above 1600, so its not hard to imagine that maybe 28-30 of them are healers.

 

These are just my interpretations of the numbers that we have available and my experiences in pvp. I'm sure other people can see other interpretations and I'm sure there are some questions we cannot answer simply due to the fact that BW isn't giving out that much information.

 

The same argument can be made for the merc/mandos. Since it is unknown what spec they are playing it could very well be true that those found in the higher rankings could be playing healers. That is an entirely plausible scenario given the fact that the dps/tank class now have guard in their dps and the updated defenses of the merc/mandos.

 

I think you gave a decent breakdown of the classes until it came to the sorc/sage and merc/mando comparison at which point you took numerous assumptions and used the to fit the argument that mercs/mandos were over performing.

[Jherad]

Nice ad homonym there. If there is something particular you don't like about my data let me know and I will change it. I am taking all the data that is available and presenting it as it is.

 

I don't think you understand the meaning of the words 'ad hominem'. Pointing out that you are projecting your own failings and foibles on to other people is not an attack against your person, it is a description of your actions. I'll leave you to judge your own motivations.

 

As for your data? I think we've already covered that. You're completely ignoring the high-end ranked results, in favor of mid-to-low end results, and 'participation'. You can't do that if you want to draw meaninful conclusions. Assuming you *do* want meaningful conclusions, and not just numbers which back up your preconceptions.

 

Balance has never been about what the great unwashed can do with a class. That has been the cause of ridiculous changes throughout SWTOR's history. It should *always* be about how a class performs at the highest end. Something I've argued since launch, even when Mercs and Mandos were at their very weakest.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Jherad

[eriksarcasm]

Hi, casual PvPer here. *ducks*

 

I think it's a bad system that allows one or two particular classes to have advantages over all others in PvP. Knowing your class, any class, should give you the tools to defeat any opponent in any environment (OBVIOUSLY with the exception of FP, OP and World Bosses, those are designed to be beaten in teams, put the pitchforks down).

 

In my experience, playing a Merc since late 3.0, I'm always the first one piled on in deathmatches. 3-4 enemies attack the Merc, take me out of the game, and often still lose! I'm not great, but I could usually take out enemies 1v1 unless that enemy truly knew his class. I find that nothing has changed since 5.0, though I've only done 3-4 warzones since then. I still die. If your response to that is "well you just don't know your class" fair enough, but then that implies that the difficulty lies with Mercs who DO know their class and play it well and can beat you through skill. As it should be.

 

Well, now that I feel like Pee Wee Herman in the biker bar, I'll just be on my way. I'll try not to knock your bikes over on my way out

[sithBracer]

The same argument can be made for the merc/mandos. Since it is unknown what spec they are playing it could very well be true that those found in the higher rankings could be playing healers. That is an entirely plausible scenario given the fact that the dps/tank class now have guard in their dps and the updated defenses of the merc/mandos.

 

Well it is possible, although I would say that it is not likely since sorcs are the number 1 healer. Even if it were true all it would mean is that merc healers are overpowerforming and merc dps were not dragging the class down like with case of sorcs.

 

I think you gave a decent breakdown of the classes until it came to the sorc/sage and merc/mando comparison at which point you took numerous assumptions and used the to fit the argument that mercs/mandos were over performing.

 

Well for sorcs I said healing was overperforming but the dps was dragging the class down. Maybe I should've separated that class into 2 categories.

 

For mercs I used the same logic as I used for assassins and other classes of high representation. I assumed since there was a high amount of mercs playing currently there would be a drop off with every tier. That of course is not what was happening. There was an upward trend in the 1200 to 1400 tier and a spike in the 1400-1600, after which there was a dropoff with the 1600+ tier but still high compared to the merc representation. One particular explanation for these numbers is (as someone else mentioned) most of the good players have started playing on their mercs because it is the first time they can be used in solo ranked. I personally believe that it is the class that carried most of these players into the higher ranks, since that was the case in all previous seasons when something like this happened. For example in 3.0 (rise of the hatred assassins), hatred assassins had a similar pattern to mercs currently.

Edited December 27, 2016 by sithBracer

[Transcendent]

Not sure what you mean there. Do you mean that a vast majority of the 2000+ merc players are actually very good players who just never took their merc into ranked before and only now started doing so? Such a thing is definitely possible but highly doubtful.

 

It isn't something to be discounted though, it is possible for this to occur. I know I avoided ranked for the last god knows how many seasons on my merc because it quite simply didn't cut it in a solo environment, chaff flare was a limited effect depending on AC spec and that was the only real DCD improvement we've seen for a long time. The class is in almost the right place now, and players will take advantage of that (both fotm rerollers and old timers as well as the newer players to the game). Add to that the CXP point I made, and that also adds to the mix.

 

Do I think the class is over-performing right now? Yes. Do I think that's an issue? Yes. Do I think that it was any different for any of the other classes that were over-performing in previous seasons? Yes. The class has been neglected for far too long imo, which is why it dropped down to where it was overall (I do follow the lists produced about which class is doing well and not so well ).

 

It definitely needs adjusting, however in the meantime, players who are a little bit more savvy about how they play will be able to counter the Merc DCDs by stopping the Merc gaining a benefit on how those new DCDs work. Or look at it another way, I'll swap target on a bubbled Sorc (and stun their arse after the bubble drops) or a jugg using ED, purely because I've learned to adapt to class abilities (I've got at least one of each, purely to learn how they play and how to defend against them as a Merc). A lot of the QQ we're seeing on these forums is purely, and let's be brutally honest here, by players who haven't got a clue about what they are facing or the ability to adapt. Why would they? They have not had to learn to adapt, due to them playing on classes that have been in a fairly decent place DCD wise, so to find a "new kid on the block" so to speak, is a wake up call.

 

It breaks the standard meta players have been used to, old timer Mercs who did well in solo or grouped ranked were a rare breed, now there is an influx, it's "OP" or "FOTM". That is fine, in the meantime I'm just going to swap to sniper when there are too many mercs, because it's a beautiful counter and can put out more damage.

 

That is another reason to see a bigger dropoff in a more populated class like was see in assassins. Unless of course you think assassins need a buff according to those numbers?

 

I think Assassins need Phase Walk returned, without any shadow of a doubt. That is integral to the class, I haven't spent much time with mine since 5.0 landed (1 Assassin and 3 Shadows by the way). Force Speed is fine as a gap closer, Phantom Stride needs fixing because it's buggy, If it's any consolation it's still a better ability than Rocket Out even if bugged. Then there is always the ability to break combat once the Merc has abused his free CC break and mezz him for caps, there are still some very good players of this class out there who are fun to play against while on the "new" Merc, before it was pretty much a one sided fight against most Mercs. Obviously the FotM rerollers still sticking to sins / shadows are having their arses handed to them, literally. The ones who didn't jump on that bandwagon though? About the same as the Mercs that didn't jump on the bandwagon.

 

To date, all I have really seen is a lot of players complaining about the Mercs. It isn't the only class to receive some very good improvements in 5.0, it's simply the most prolific at the moment while people are still figuring out how to counter it. It is counterable, just not by ALL classes.

 

As a side note to this, I've seen some players in-game who mained Mercs from quite a while ago return to play after a long absence. That has to be a good thing right?

Edited December 27, 2016 by Transcendent

[MuskyBoy]

Writing about opped mercs/commandos here won't change anything, bw don't read anything players are writing here and the only way to express our opinion is writing threads in general threads topic. Today i had 3 warzones with 4-5 mercs/commandos in it and it was terrible, they are unkillable and their dps is as high as before (pre 5.0.) each day players abandon their main classes and creating mercs/commandos... by the end of this year the population of mercs/commandos will be 70% of all player base.

 

If you want to stop it - time to write your suggestions/opinions in general discussion topic ( http://www.swtor.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=255 )

 

Honestly the biggest problem is the gear grind. It's true that many players are playing merc/mandos (especially arsenal cos IO too hard lulz) however when gearing alts is next to impossible without grinding why would anyone play anything other then their current main? Personally I would play all classes if I didn't have to spend months playing and hoping the RNG gods look kindly on me however until that time I'm stuck playing my mercs and mandos. The gear grind leads to FoTM classes being abused more then ever.

[Nezyrworks]

Strongly suggest you guys check this one out:

 

This is a proposition of how to fix two classes in one go!:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...78#post9187878

Edited December 28, 2016 by Nezyrworks

[Lhancelot]

Strongly suggest you guys check this one out:

 

This is a proposition of how to fix two classes in one go!:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...78#post9187878

 

Mercs are fine. PTs need to be improved.

[Alex_York]

Mercs do feel much stronger than before, but if you pop their CDs they are squishy and easy to kill. Learn how to CC.

[Razortron]

Merc/Mando is fine.