Thank you Bioware, for finally improving mercs/commandos in PVP

[Lhancelot]

Using past underperformance to rationalize current overpowerdness is not the basis of a logical argument, but more an appeal to the victim identity some mercs seem to cling to.

 

There's nothing wrong with the enjoyment of being top dog- defensives, burst, mobility, you have it all. But when you start thinking it's fair or balanced, you lose me. Anyone with a brain can stop attacking on reflect or reactive shield to mitigate the heal- if that's what you mean by "adapt" but that doesn't change the fact that it's stupidly OP and puts mercs on a ridiculously short shot clock to kill. The problem grows exponentially the more mercs you throw into the mix.

 

Players shouldn't have to adapt to broken mechanics, those mechanics should be fixed.

 

I think it's a matter of people just not being used to mercs having any survival.

 

Now that it's time to adapt and think, you know, instead of simply facetanking the merc dead in 6 seconds, players have to actually recognize when they should use a stun and back off. It's the same mechanic we have learned to use with juggs.

 

Guess it's too complicated now that another class has a way to stop focused damage, a class that for years has been the laughingstock of the warzones. Sure, even in 4.0, they were improved upon with great burst, but they had ZERO survivability.

 

Now, mercs have survivability and suddenly they are too powerful?

 

It's really only the stupid melee that run and leap into the merc expecting to instantly kill them like they used to that is complaining the most now.

 

All the juggs and marauders just need to adjust and adapt to the fact they can't leap and destroy the merc instantly. Once they start playing against the merc sensibly, they will see it's not nearly as OP'd as they seem to believe.

 

Just sounds like sour grapes tbh.

 

Thanks Bioware.

[EnzoForMe]

I think it's a matter of people just not being used to mercs having any survival.

 

Now that it's time to adapt and think, you know, instead of simply facetanking the merc dead in 6 seconds, players have to actually recognize when they should use a stun and back off. It's the same mechanic we have learned to use with juggs.

 

Guess it's too complicated now that another class has a way to stop focused damage, a class that for years has been the laughingstock of the warzones. Sure, even in 4.0, they were improved upon with great burst, but they had ZERO survivability.

 

Now, mercs have survivability and suddenly they are too powerful?

 

It's really only the stupid melee that run and leap into the merc expecting to instantly kill them like they used to that is complaining the most now.

 

All the juggs and marauders just need to adjust and adapt to the fact they can't leap and destroy the merc instantly. Once they start playing against the merc sensibly, they will see it's not nearly as OP'd as they seem to believe.

 

Just sounds like sour grapes tbh.

 

Thanks Bioware.

 

Yes thanks for reminding me I need to "think" and "adapt". As if cc'ing through reactive or target swapping/using aoe or dots (tough luck warriors) during reflect is something difficult to understand. Players can adapt to an extent, that doesn't change the fact that merc dcds are broken. You have an unreasonably small window to kill a merc compared to every other class and their healing dcds recycle far too quickly. It's particularly bad when you are talking solo ranked and adding multiple mercs to the mix (or 6 in one game, which i keep seeing happening).

 

Good players will always have an umbrella for the **** storm, that doesn't mean they like standing in it.

 

My hope is that Bioware recognizes the problem and removes healing from reactive shield, instead of hitting mercs with a nerf bat so hard they go back into the bin of irrelevancy.

Edited December 20, 2016 by EnzoForMe

[Severith]

 

Now, mercs have survivability and suddenly they are too powerful?

 

.

 

Yeah, that's exactly it. Glass cannons, by definition are balanced. Offense over defense. Now the glass cannon Is unbreakable. With trauma regulators, mercs get 12 seconds of no one wanting to attack them. With energy rebounder, that 12 seconds every two minutes now becomes 12 seconds every 40 seconds. Now all they have to do is survive the 28 seconds in between not having energy shield. Oh wait, they can kolto overcharge to 70% health if you manage to get them low enough to trigger it. They've got a huge toolkit to survive in between energy shield windows.

[sithBracer]

I have to take your word on it, so far I been in mids, and from what I seen there is not a huge abundance of mercs, and I have not noticed the ruination of PVP either.

 

Just an fyi, most mercs do not take trauma regulator's in mids, which is why imo they aren't OP at all in mids. Trauma regulators is the ability to give them a heal to full after reactive shield if they were hit enough times with the shield on them (I think one person posted an image of him getting over 100k in one heal). Combined with energy rebounder and they can access this about every 45-55s.

 

inb4 the standard comments, yes you can just change targets, but the shield lasts for 12s. So they either get 12s of free damage on anyone or they have 12s to just heal up on their own. And yes you can mezz them (those that have 8s insta mezzes), but in regs and solo ranked it is very hard to mezz and not have it be broken by a teammate, that is only if they don't have DoTs on them of course.

Edited December 20, 2016 by sithBracer

[Bonzenaattori]

... I wonder what would happen if two Operatives popped their 150% reflect at the same time and shiv'd each other

:thinking:

[sithBracer]

... I wonder what would happen if two Operatives popped their 150% reflect at the same time and shiv'd each other

:thinking:

 

The damage would just reflect to each other.

[Dewlmenow]

Here I am again, trying to save my favorite spec from total annihilation by nerf hammer. Where everyone is screaming "Nerf Mercs!", what they actually mean to say is "Nerf Arsenal!". Yes, Arsenal is overpowered, with huge burst, electro net and amazingly strong dcds. But, and I hope that Bioware will see this, Merc heals are not OP. Yes we got sweet defenses to keep us from getting tunneled into the ground, but in return they took a considerable amount of our hps. I can now barely keep a teammate up when he is getting focused by 2+ burst dps, whereas a Sorc would have a much easier time doing this. If Bioware were to take away some of our new defenses aswell, Merc heals will be nothing next to Sorc heals.

As a lightning sorc main that was forced to reroll you have my sympathies, but you know what's coning.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Dewlmenow

[Kinsal]

Using past underperformance to rationalize current overpowerdness is not the basis of a logical argument, but more an appeal to the victim identity some mercs seem to cling to.

 

There's nothing wrong with the enjoyment of being top dog- defensives, burst, mobility, you have it all. But when you start thinking it's fair or balanced, you lose me. Anyone with a brain can stop attacking on reflect or reactive shield to mitigate the heal- if that's what you mean by "adapt" but that doesn't change the fact that it's stupidly OP and puts mercs on a ridiculously short shot clock to kill. The problem grows exponentially the more mercs you throw into the mix.

 

Players shouldn't have to adapt to broken mechanics, those mechanics should be fixed.

 

QFE could not have said it better myself gold star post here.

 

In 4.0 outside of solo rank which is just tunnel tactics as its the lowest common denominator they were super good in regs I'd argue one of the best DPS classes to take in regs.

 

In the history of PVP in MMO's you have classes that are Prey that you feast on and that same class has Predators classes that feast on them those classes are Priority Kill classes. When a Class no longer has Predators and everything is just Prey you move into OP'ness and that's where merc is currently ATM.

 

I don't want to take away your DCD's use em but that burst has to go. Range burst should be the domain of sniper/slingers. Be as tanky as you like but no more *** bust.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Kinsal

[Jake_Chambers]

Arsenal should never have been able to get a heal to full on trauma regulators. The trade off of keeping their +30% surge should have been lower survivability. Anyone arguing that a glass cannon needs multiple heal to fulls on short cooldowns is an idiot. Edited December 20, 2016 by Jake_Chambers

[Lhancelot]

Arsenal should never have been able to get a heal to full on trauma regulators. The trade off of keeping their +30% surge should have been lower survivability. Anyone arguing that a glass cannon needs multiple heal to fulls on short cooldowns is an idiot.

 

Did you run merc/commando dps in ranked in the past? How about merc/commando healers? Ever run them and compare them to the other healers?

 

These classes DID need some sort of anti-focus ability, period.

 

Anyone arguing that they should have been left as they were, totally unviable in ranked and subpar compared to other dps/healers is an idiot.

[Jake_Chambers]

Did you run merc/commando dps in ranked in the past? How about merc/commando healers? Ever run them and compare them to the other healers?

 

These classes DID need some sort of anti-focus ability, period.

 

Anyone arguing that they should have been left as they were, totally unviable in ranked and subpar compared to other dps/healers is an idiot.

 

Wonderful reply to something I didn't say. I'll repeat it for you: Arsenal, as a spec that can put out very high damage from range with extreme ease should not have a heal to full possible every 40 seconds. Trauma regulators should have never been an option for arsenal specifically, because arsenal's phenomenal output needs to have a trade off.

 

It's OK on merc heals and somewhat on IO, as neither spec has as high output heals or dps wise. Even with these buffs neither IO nor bodyguard is top tier in ranked. Arsenal shouldn't have this though.

[Lhancelot]

Wonderful reply to something I didn't say. I'll repeat it for you: Arsenal, as a spec that can put out very high damage from range with extreme ease should not have a heal to full possible every 40 seconds. Trauma regulators should have never been an option for arsenal specifically, because arsenal's phenomenal output needs to have a trade off.

 

It's OK on merc heals and somewhat on IO, as neither spec has as high output heals or dps wise. Even with these buffs neither IO nor bodyguard is top tier in ranked. Arsenal shouldn't have this though.

 

Wonderful reply to something I did not say.

 

I never said "mercs should have a heal to full every 40 seconds." What I said was mercs needed some sort of anti focus ability. This especially is true of the healing merc. Healing mercs were abysmal in PVP when tunneled and you know that.

 

Fact is the class had some massive weaknesses before 5.0, but people love to point out their one awesome trait and that being the ONE dps specs burst.

 

What about the other specs?

 

The dot spec has been garbage for a long time, and the healing spec was not far from garbage for a long time too. Surprise surprise, the burst spec had great burst, but nothing else.

 

Some classes were able to easily circumvent any defensive the mercs had making them free kills in PVP and you know this too. If you sat back and let the merc freecast his burst on you, yep you would die fast. If you sat on the merc he was nullified quite easily. Pretty simple strategy back then to defeat mercs in PVP!

 

This buff to mercs might have been stronghanded, but you know what, the majority of whine on these forums about them now are coming from people who never once said the class needed help.

 

For years the class was subpar, now it is not. It needed some improvements, and it got them. Thanks Bioware.

[Jake_Chambers]

Wonderful reply to something I did not say.

 

I never said "mercs should have a heal to full every 40 seconds." What I said was mercs needed some sort of anti focus ability. This especially is true of the healing merc. Healing mercs were abysmal in PVP when tunneled and you know that.

 

Fact is the class had some massive weaknesses before 5.0, but people love to point out their one awesome trait and that being the ONE dps specs burst.

 

What about the other specs?

 

The dot spec has been garbage for a long time, and the healing spec was not far from garbage for a long time too. Surprise surprise, the burst spec had great burst, but nothing else.

 

Some classes were able to easily circumvent any defensive the mercs had making them free kills in PVP and you know this too. If you sat back and let the merc freecast his burst on you, yep you would die fast. If you sat on the merc he was nullified quite easily. Pretty simple strategy back then to defeat mercs in PVP!

 

This buff to mercs might have been stronghanded, but you know what, the majority of whine on these forums about them now are coming from people who never once said the class needed help.

 

For years the class was subpar, now it is not. It needed some improvements, and it got them. Thanks Bioware.

 

I really wish you'd read posts before deciding you'll disagree with them. My point from the start has been that arsenal is grossly overtuned with trauma regulators. I never said anything about taking it away from bodyguard or io, so I'm really not sure what half of your post is responding to.

 

As for arsenal, it's one of the strongest burst classes in the history of the game. Not only is it the most mobile ranged burst spec, having only to cast tracer round, it retains one of the few +30% surge boosts in game (io is the other dps spec that kept it). Furthermore, it's insultingly simple to play whilst also being among the strongest burst specs.

 

If you really want to keep saying that all of that should have no trade off, go for it. You must have some brilliant insight that the entire Harb ranked community lacks, because everyone has realized how broken arsenal is

[Lhancelot]

I really wish you'd read posts before deciding you'll disagree with them. My point from the start has been that arsenal is grossly overtuned with trauma regulators. I never said anything about taking it away from bodyguard or io, so I'm really not sure what half of your post is responding to.

 

As for arsenal, it's one of the strongest burst classes in the history of the game. Not only is it the most mobile ranged burst spec, having only to cast tracer round, it retains one of the few +30% surge boosts in game (io is the other dps spec that kept it). Furthermore, it's insultingly simple to play whilst also being among the strongest burst specs.

 

If you really want to keep saying that all of that should have no trade off, go for it. You must have some brilliant insight that the entire Harb ranked community lacks, because everyone has realized how broken arsenal is

 

I can only reflect with a lot of experience how the class was prior to 5.0. I just came back to swtor a couple days ago.

 

I don't have any super insight or whatever it is you think I think I have.

 

I just know the class needed a buff, and after years of crap the class got a buff.

 

The game has done this since year 1, these devs buff one class out the roof, and then nerf others into the ground. I used to get super frustrated about this process, too. Just go back and see the threads i wrote regarding the classes that were gimpy and needed buffs.

 

Typically I always wanted classes to be improved that needed buffs, not nerf fun classes that were OP'd into crap. Usually when they nerf the class, they destroy a lot of the synergy by changing abilities and stuff which is stupid. They remove the fun from a class then.

 

I am just happy that finally in the swtor nerf/buff process, mercs got their turn after being on the bottom of the totem pole since the start.

 

Other classes are still quite powerful, and some are gimpy as always, but this is nothing new on swtor. You been here a long time, and you know this.

[sithBracer]

I never said "mercs should have a heal to full every 40 seconds." What I said was mercs needed some sort of anti focus ability. This especially is true of the healing merc. Healing mercs were abysmal in PVP when tunneled and you know that.

 

So you don't think a merc should have heal to full every 40 seconds yet you are defending an ability that heals them to full every 40 to 55 seconds?

 

Have you played at 70 yet btw?

[ShadessaWayland]

problem is with most pvp players you wanna kill every1 by your self to get the most damage score and kills

 

and thats about it bevore 5.0 merc was a easy kill hahaha lol noob merc easy kill for me

 

and now you have a hard time to beat a merc now they say noob merc to OP

 

for me as a main merc i don't always kill players i also do back up healing even if i am a dps spec

 

with the damage i do and healing my felow players i get more respect from my team

 

for me pvp is about team work and not try to be a jerk and wanna kill everybody

[Lhancelot]

So you don't think a merc should have heal to full every 40 seconds yet you are defending an ability that heals them to full every 40 to 55 seconds?

 

Have you played at 70 yet btw?

 

I never defended any one ability they buffed for mercs, I only defend the position they have in pvp which is no different than when other classes have been at the top of the pyramid in pvp. That's it.

 

People can rail against the machine here if they want, but this is how it works on swtor.

 

The funny part of it is, mercs have never been at the top, so I never really got to feel what it is like being a top apex predator on swtor with a class I really enjoy best. I imagine it feels good, huh?

 

I have played healing sorcs/sages for ages even before they were buffed to their present status of being the top healer so that worked in my favor, but I always enjoyed mercs, and always tried to keep in practice on my merc healer as well as dps.

 

I didn't have to reroll anything, as my mercs/commandos have been around for a long time despite what some people here may think.

 

Swtor pvp is not balanced, has never been balanced, and will never be balanced.

 

I am going to enjoy playing the merc while it's not a gimped class, and hopefully when they adjust things in pvp, they don't destroy the class with nerfs... But if they do, it won't surprise me one bit.

[sithBracer]

I never defended any one ability they buffed for mercs, I only defend the position they have in pvp which is no different than when other classes have been at the top of the pyramid in pvp. That's it.

 

People can rail against the machine here if they want, but this is how it works on swtor.

 

The funny part of it is, mercs have never been at the top, so I never really got to feel what it is like being a top apex predator on swtor with a class I really enjoy best. I imagine it feels good, huh?

 

I have played healing sorcs/sages for ages even before they were buffed to their present status of being the top healer so that worked in my favor, but I always enjoyed mercs, and always tried to keep in practice on my merc healer as well as dps.

 

I didn't have to reroll anything, as my mercs/commandos have been around for a long time despite what some people here may think.

 

Swtor pvp is not balanced, has never been balanced, and will never be balanced.

 

I am going to enjoy playing the merc while it's not a gimped class, and hopefully when they adjust things in pvp, they don't destroy the class with nerfs... But if they do, it won't surprise me one bit.

 

Look there is nothing wrong with enjoying being at the top. But just be honest about it, own it, don't try to pretend like it is completely fair and everything is perfectly balanced like you and some other people have been doing. I personally am enjoying playing assassin who I haven't played in over a year but I am perfectly willing to admit that the damage is higher than it should be (due to a glitch), and it should be corrected.

[Lhancelot]

Look there is nothing wrong with enjoying being at the top. But just be honest about it, own it, don't try to pretend like it is completely fair and everything is perfectly balanced like you and some other people have been doing. I personally am enjoying playing assassin who I haven't played in over a year but I am perfectly willing to admit that the damage is higher than it should be (due to a glitch), and it should be corrected.

 

I want you to show me where I said everything is perfectly balanced. Where bro? I keep saying it over and over, swtor has NEVER been balanced, EVER.

 

I have said it quite clearly I enjoy the fact this class has finally gotten a turn to sit at the top of the food chain. It's a nice change of pace, instead of the typical rotation between sins, jugs, sorcs and marauders.

 

At least it's something fresh and new; mercs at the top of the pvp ladder! I honestly never thought it would happen.

 

All mercs and commandos owe BW a huge thank you for such a nice early X-mas gift.

[sithBracer]

I want you to show me where I said everything is perfectly balanced. Where bro? I keep saying it over and over, swtor has NEVER been balanced, EVER.

 

Well here you kind of imply it:

 

I think it's a matter of people just not being used to mercs having any survival.

 

Now that it's time to adapt and think, you know, instead of simply facetanking the merc dead in 6 seconds, players have to actually recognize when they should use a stun and back off. It's the same mechanic we have learned to use with juggs.

 

Guess it's too complicated now that another class has a way to stop focused damage, a class that for years has been the laughingstock of the warzones. Sure, even in 4.0, they were improved upon with great burst, but they had ZERO survivability.

 

Now, mercs have survivability and suddenly they are too powerful?

 

It's really only the stupid melee that run and leap into the merc expecting to instantly kill them like they used to that is complaining the most now.

 

All the juggs and marauders just need to adjust and adapt to the fact they can't leap and destroy the merc instantly. Once they start playing against the merc sensibly, they will see it's not nearly as OP'd as they seem to believe.

 

Just sounds like sour grapes tbh.

 

Thanks Bioware.

 

 

I have said it quite clearly I enjoy the fact this class has finally gotten a turn to sit at the top of the food chain. It's a nice change of pace, instead of the typical rotation between sins, jugs, sorcs and marauders.

 

At least it's something fresh and new; mercs at the top of the pvp ladder! I honestly never thought it would happen.

 

All mercs and commandos owe BW a huge thank you for such a nice early X-mas gift.

 

I honestly don't mind mercs being at the top, there will always be one class that is better than the rest. In this case the difference between the top class and the class beneath it is imo greater than it ever has been before in this game. Mercs are atm the most OP class in the history of this game (with the exception of 1.2 operatives and infiltration shadow during those 3 days they were glitched). And I've played through smash monkeys, 2.4 AP PTs, 3.X hatred assassins, 2.X op healers, 4.X sorc healers, 1.X assassin tanks, 40k+ crit snipers and 4.0 super PTs.

Edited December 21, 2016 by sithBracer

[Lhancelot]

Well here you kind of imply it:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I honestly don't mind mercs being at the top, there will always be one class that is better than the rest. In this case the difference between the top class and the class beneath it is imo greater than it ever has been before in this game. Mercs are atm the most OP class in the history of this game (with the exception of 1.2 operatives and deception assassins during those 3 days they were glitched). And I've played through smash monkeys, 2.4 AP PTs, 3.X hatred assassins, 2.X op healers, 4.X sorc healers, 1.X assassin tanks, 40k+ crit snipers and 4.0 super PTs.

 

You know what bw should do next for pvp?

 

They ought to bring back every iteration of overpowered classes they ever had in the past. Bring back smashmonkies, supertechs, snipers with 50k crits, hatred sins with dot spread galore, etc., etc.

 

That would be fun.

[sithBracer]

You know what bw should do next for pvp?

 

They ought to bring back every iteration of overpowered classes they ever had in the past. Bring back smashmonkies, supertechs, snipers with 50k crits, hatred sins with dot spread galore, etc., etc.

 

That would be fun.

 

To be honest, I kind of wanna see that now lol. It would be nice if they bring back the infiltration shadow low slash glitch for april fools day lol.

[Transcendent]

this post stinks of fotm's and lack of intelligence. Those excited about this massive buffs to give them the best DCDs in the game seem to forget all the minor tweaks that have been made to the class pre 5.0. Rocket out, self heals, their PvE agro reducer, All these these buffs were given so the class could be more survivable when focused.

 

Jesus, the lack of memory here is amazing.

 

We gained Rocket Out, which to be useful meant sacrificing an actual useful utility point. At the expense of having our HO CD drastically increased (making us less mobile). Self heals on merc have always been awful since we lost Kolto Missile, at least we were slightly useful with that in teams. Chaff flare does not, and has never been good against all types of damage.

 

In fact, the only thing I can think of that was remotely useful to us was retaining our surge when everyone else lost theirs. We we're not even a glass cannon class pre 5.0, we would frequently be out dps'd by Immortal Jugg wearing DPS gear (who could also out heal us as well). I mean pick a class, it was normally better than Merc in 4.0.

 

The only thing Merc players have really been asking for over the last few years is a way to mitigate focus in an arena, we've gained that anti-focus now and players are being salty because they no longer get a free kill straight away. Know how to negate the DCD buffs? Stop hitting the merc and swap while the DCD runs it's course. Or are you one of THOSE players who keeps going at the Sorc players when the bubble is up?

 

You know what? Tough. Put up with it, learn to adapt, Merc / Mando players have been for YEARS.

[Kirpputori]

The only thing Merc players have really been asking for over the last few years is a way to mitigate focus in an arena, we've gained that anti-focus now and players are being salty because they no longer get a free kill straight away. Know how to negate the DCD buffs? Stop hitting the merc and swap while the DCD runs it's course. Or are you one of THOSE players who keeps going at the Sorc players when the bubble is up?

 

You know what? Tough. Put up with it, learn to adapt, Merc / Mando players have been for YEARS.

Yeah, sure , imo they needed some anti-focus too but cmon. There is definitely too much with the shield-heal2full, absorb-reflect-heal-shield and the double ticking kolto to 70%.

Two of those needs to switch target/cc and the third you can't dps through(-> switch target/cc). Makes up to total 3 anti-focus things

Edited December 21, 2016 by Kirpputori

[CrazyOldMystic]

I am not happy about this at all. The second shield/reflect shield is op/over kill in a major way. The only thing its setting mercs/commandos up for is a major over kill nerf. I am also not happy with the removal of stockstrike, or the upercut on the merc, and or the flame thrower. Every merc I have talked to is not happy about the removal of those abilities. Stop watering down the trooper and bh class. I even hear they removed even more abilities up top of unload/full auto from powertech and vanguard.