The state of Jug/Guardians in Ranked

[xShenanigansx]

They are not doing so well right now. The dps spec's are the go to focus target due to their lack of survivability, and weaker defensive cool downs. In my opinion, their current damage and mobility is fine, and the ability to fix the class so that it can once again be a competitive class in pvp.

 

I have come up with a couple fixes I think would make a huge difference to jug/guard survivability, and utility in ranked with just 2 simple fixes.

 

1. I would love to see saber reflect updated to be a more clutch ability to use strategically at the correct moment, rather than just pop and hope for the best. Instead of the 1 min cd, 5 second reflect, id like to see it on something like a 30 second cool down, with it only lasting 2-3 seconds. This would allow players to use it offensively as well, rather than just another defensive cool down.

 

I also think that Endure pain should be adjusted so that instead of increasing health by 30% for 20 seconds, it would reduce damage taken by 30% for something like 10 seconds, and have something like a 45 second cool down. This I believe would most certainly help in our survivability, allowing us to properly compete with some of the better tuned classes at the moment in ranked and unranked play.

 

I would love to hear other opinions on how to "Make Juggernauts (and guardians) Great Again"

[Andrew_Past]

I've been talking some with Rydarus about Guardian issues. I was going to make a post about this, but might as well talk about them here, as it mostly has to do with arena survivability. Here's a combination of our ideas:

 

For PVP survivability, I feel that with other classes receiving incredibly strong anti-focus tools, we're falling behind. Focused Defense can be bursted through quite easily, reflect is a shorter duration and more limited when compared to Commando reflect or Sentinel pacify, and Guardians have no reset like Sentinel or Shadow's stealth out. Commando and Sentinels have 3 effective anti-focus DCDs with 2 of them on a short CD. Guardians have 2 which are less effective and on longer CDs.

 

My DCD suggestions are the following:

Reflect - Lower the cooldown of reflect to 45s and make it baseline 5s. Replace that part of the utility point to make reflect have another secondary effect. Rydarus suggested adding another root break effect, but we have plenty already. I'd suggest maybe allow it to reflect single target melee damage as well.

 

Guardian Leap - Allow guardian leap to purge roots and slows by default, and allow either vigilance or focus to avoid all damage and effects during the guardian leap (similar to ops roll and blade blitz). I'd like this for both DPS specs, but it would be too OP for tanks.

 

Rydarus didn't like this suggestion. He wants the old 8% HP returned on Guardian Leap back. While I do miss the heal, I believe my suggestion would help more for anti-focus usage. It would allow you to avoid burst damage. Rydarus' suggestion would help more for dealing with sustained damage.

 

Focused Defense - To bring this defensive more in-line with other anti-focus DCDs, DPS specs should get a 40% damage redction buff for 6-10s if 10 stacks of Focused Defense are consumed.

 

As for your ideas Zodius, I like my reflect idea more. It allows reflect to retain its power as an anti-focus tool having a 5s duration, but still on a shorter CD than what we have currently. However, I would rather see your idea be implemented than have nothing happen at all. In its current form, reflect is relatively weak and needs a change.

 

However, I'm not a fan of your suggested Enure change. I like how Enure interacts with medpacs, and is fairly unique in general. Your suggestion would problem by OP for tanks, too. I would suggest that both DPS specs get access to the 15% damage reduction that Vigilance enjoys current. I would also suggest that it be increased to 20%.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Andrew_Past

[Alec_Fortescue]

I've been talking some with Rydarus about Guardian issues. I was going to make a post about this, but might as well talk about them here, as it mostly has to do with arena survivability. Here's a combination of our ideas:

 

For PVP survivability, I feel that with other classes receiving incredibly strong anti-focus tools, we're falling behind. Focused Defense can be bursted through quite easily, reflect is a shorter duration and more limited when compared to Commando reflect or Sentinel pacify, and Guardians have no reset like Sentinel or Shadow's stealth out. Commando and Sentinels have 3 effective anti-focus DCDs with 2 of them on a short CD. Guardians have 2 which are less effective and on longer CDs.

 

My DCD suggestions are the following:

Reflect - Lower the cooldown of reflect to 45s and make it baseline 5s. Replace that part of the utility point to make reflect have another secondary effect. Rydarus suggested adding another root break effect, but we have plenty already. I'd suggest maybe allow it to reflect single target melee damage as well.

 

Guardian Leap - Allow guardian leap to purge roots and slows by default, and allow either vigilance or focus to avoid all damage and effects during the guardian leap (similar to ops roll and blade blitz). I'd like this for both DPS specs, but it would be too OP for tanks.

 

Rydarus didn't like this suggestion. He wants the old 8% HP returned on Guardian Leap back. While I do miss the heal, I believe my suggestion would help more for anti-focus usage. It would allow you to avoid burst damage. Rydarus' suggestion would help more for dealing with sustained damage.

 

Focused Defense - To bring this defensive more in-line with other anti-focus DCDs, DPS specs should get a 40% damage redction buff for 6-10s if 10 stacks of Focused Defense are consumed.

 

As for your ideas Zodius, I like my reflect idea more. It allows reflect to retain its power as an anti-focus tool having a 5s duration, but still on a shorter CD than what we have currently. However, I would rather see your idea be implemented than have nothing happen at all. In its current form, reflect is relatively weak and needs a change.

 

However, I'm not a fan of your suggested Enure change. I like how Enure interacts with medpacs, and is fairly unique in general. Your suggestion would problem by OP for tanks, too. I would suggest that both DPS specs get access to the 15% damage reduction that Vigilance enjoys current. I would also suggest that it be increased to 20%.

 

Now how would you get bioware to give this a shot? :/

 

Also... FIX POOLED HATRED

[GrandLordMenace]

I've been talking some with Rydarus about Guardian issues. I was going to make a post about this, but might as well talk about them here, as it mostly has to do with arena survivability. Here's a combination of our ideas:

 

For PVP survivability, I feel that with other classes receiving incredibly strong anti-focus tools, we're falling behind. Focused Defense can be bursted through quite easily, reflect is a shorter duration and more limited when compared to Commando reflect or Sentinel pacify, and Guardians have no reset like Sentinel or Shadow's stealth out. Commando and Sentinels have 3 effective anti-focus DCDs with 2 of them on a short CD. Guardians have 2 which are less effective and on longer CDs.

 

My DCD suggestions are the following:

Reflect - Lower the cooldown of reflect to 45s and make it baseline 5s. Replace that part of the utility point to make reflect have another secondary effect. Rydarus suggested adding another root break effect, but we have plenty already. I'd suggest maybe allow it to reflect single target melee damage as well.

 

Guardian Leap - Allow guardian leap to purge roots and slows by default, and allow either vigilance or focus to avoid all damage and effects during the guardian leap (similar to ops roll and blade blitz). I'd like this for both DPS specs, but it would be too OP for tanks.

 

Rydarus didn't like this suggestion. He wants the old 8% HP returned on Guardian Leap back. While I do miss the heal, I believe my suggestion would help more for anti-focus usage. It would allow you to avoid burst damage. Rydarus' suggestion would help more for dealing with sustained damage.

 

Focused Defense - To bring this defensive more in-line with other anti-focus DCDs, DPS specs should get a 40% damage redction buff for 6-10s if 10 stacks of Focused Defense are consumed.

 

As for your ideas Zodius, I like my reflect idea more. It allows reflect to retain its power as an anti-focus tool having a 5s duration, but still on a shorter CD than what we have currently. However, I would rather see your idea be implemented than have nothing happen at all. In its current form, reflect is relatively weak and needs a change.

 

However, I'm not a fan of your suggested Enure change. I like how Enure interacts with medpacs, and is fairly unique in general. Your suggestion would problem by OP for tanks, too. I would suggest that both DPS specs get access to the 15% damage reduction that Vigilance enjoys current. I would also suggest that it be increased to 20%.

 

Might be a bit broken, but what about removing the talent that decreases the CD of focused defense and replacing it with a "damage taken CD reduction?" This reduction would only occur as a DPS. For a tank it would continue to be the flat 30s reduction.

 

"Taking damage reduces the cooldown of focused defense by 1 second. Cannot occur more than once every second."

 

This means that guardians, if they can kite, can survive focus longer, as it procs up their focused defense? Thoughts? It would be a 2 minute base cooldown with the possibility of it having a 1 minute cooldown if taking damage.

 

For enure, I'd change it to this:

 

Enure also grants "Instinctual Protection," when stunned your damage taken is reduced by 50% during the duration of enure.

Edited December 15, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[JaredLoch]

Rydarus, will you be doing a Guaridan PvP guide soon?

[GrandLordMenace]

Rydarus, will you be doing a Guaridan PvP guide soon?

 

Possibly. I have 1607 in ranked rn but honestly I don't think it makes me all that qualified, if no one else wishes to do it considering how dead the game is I'll talk to dulfy about it.

[JaredLoch]

Rydarus I sent you a PM

[Alec_Fortescue]

I'd be interested in making a PvP guide for Guardians. Never did but would be interested. I found spec/gear combo that seems to work and get me a very good w/l ratio in randoms. Unfortunately both my Jug/Guard are stuck crappers because I played dps too often and kept getting trolls too much. Just today I had a team with guy who /stucked despite 1:0 and the other just left after 1:1... Don't forget so many mercs and exploiting opers around. Should get over 1600 soon though, rating is flying in my setup and I don't even have to sync or win trade. *winks at ebon hawk*

 

I'll ask Nightrain if we wants to make it a joint effort.

 

some highlights http://imgur.com/a/vy1DA

Edited December 16, 2016 by Alec_Fortescue

[Necroscop]

I see you guys keep talking about stuff been given to dps but not tank, but tank its extremely broken in PvP and need biggest fix. For example, I did run some tests with friend and did you know that for tank, tank gear dose nothing? When I did change my 234-240 tank gear with 14k AR to 204 DPS gear with 10k AR I was taking on average only 5% more damage but my damage output was up but about 50% and crushing blow its doing 20k+ damage.

I do not have enough gear to do this but I recon if I would keep my 234-240 armorings and get 234-240 DPS mods and enhancements, I would keep then my AR at 14k, my tank bonus and then probably there would be 0% difference in damage I take when compare with full tank gear and damage i deal would go even higher lets not forget that with DPS gear Tank can have very easy 120% accuracy or very high crit.

People who pick tank class they pick this class to be a tank not DPS in tank stance.

People shouldn’t even consider killing tank at the beginning of match but they do as killing tank its as easy as killing DPS actually you can kill tank two times faster then kiling merc DPS . I did some test with my merc too in PvE and merc have better CD and survivability then tank if merc would have taunt he would be one of the best tanks in game i bet not many did try merc in tank gear for pve, OMG this class its OP if i had taunt on my merc this would be my main tank and that it’s wrong Tank should be tank and DPS should be DPS.

 

I left this game about year ago just got back thinking that 5.0 will fix many old broken classes and remove hybrid classes from game but i was wrong. some DPS can heal as effective as healer, DPS classes can take much, much, much more damage then tank etc.

 

Fix its easy

DPS should be DPS no heals no CD better then tank

Tank should be tank, very low damage in PvP but very hard to kill and they should have plenty tools to keep his teammates alive (protection)

 

Healers are the only classes which are not so bad, they do what they should be doing.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Yes, dps gear > Tank gear. Welcome to the current meta. It's ridiculous. This is the best viable option right now, too.

[xShenanigansx]

Yes, dps gear > Tank gear. Welcome to the current meta. It's ridiculous. This is the best viable option right now, too.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong as I've only played season 6 before this season, but hasn't this always been a thing? I know in s6, tanks were at least putting in a few dps mods, or using all dps trinkets/relics/ear.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Correct me if I'm wrong as I've only played season 6 before this season, but hasn't this always been a thing? I know in s6, tanks were at least putting in a few dps mods, or using all dps trinkets/relics/ear.

 

I was told that it was but in previous seasons dps spec was remotely viable.

[J_McSkill]

Should get over 1600 soon though, rating is flying in my setup and I don't even have to sync or win trade. *winks at ebon hawk*

 

You really get on my nerves sometimes... I know in your mind it's impossible that some other guardian could have a higher rating than you simply because they are better. That's just crazy right? The only possible explanation must be they are cheating!

 

There is no syncing or win trading going on among the top rated pubs on TEH. Ask anyone who actually plays there, including Rydarus. TEH is the only pub dominated server in NA right now and naturally the good pub players have migrated there. I'd love for you to come on over and play so you'd see the truth and stop slandering an entire server every chance you get just because there's some higher rated players than you on it.

 

I really hope this isn't still sour grapes from me beating you out for top 3 guardian last season.

Edited December 27, 2016 by J_McSkill

[DerSchneider]

You really get on my nerves sometimes... I know in you're mind it's impossible that some other guardian could have a higher rating than you simply because they are better. That's just crazy right? The only possible explanation must be they are cheating!

 

There is no syncing or win trading going on among the top rated pubs on TEH. Ask anyone who actually plays there, including Rydarus. TEH is the only pub dominated server in NA right now and naturally the good pub players have migrated there. I'd love for you to come on over and play so you'd see the truth and stop slandering an entire server every chance you get just because there's some higher rated players than you on it.

 

I really hope this isn't still sour grapes from me beating you out for top 3 guardian last season.

 

By looking at yours and kanaba's rating it feels like guardians don't need a buff at all

 

Only juggs need kappa

 

[J_McSkill]

By looking at yours and kanaba's rating it feels like guardians don't need a buff at all

 

Only juggs need kappa

 

Tank juggs/guardians are in a good spot.... just dps specs need tuning.

[Alec_Fortescue]

I get on everyone's nerve . It's just me.

 

Also our utilities deserve some changes. They are extremely lackluster and badly thought out. Thwart is literally useless, even for tanks. That 20% damage boost is consumed by literally everything but Freezing Force / Chilling Scream. Persistent Chill is key to doing optimal dps in both pve and pvp and should have never been a talent but a class passive, maybe with different functions for dps/tanking. Unyielding Justice is also very badly thought out and two more seconds on Reflect are not worth it anymore either.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Alec_Fortescue

[GrandLordMenace]

Tank juggs/guardians are in a good spot.... just dps specs need tuning.

 

DPSing in ranked on a guardian is the most infuriating thing ever. You just get *********** globalled the moment the enemy team realizes you're squishy as ****. It's infuriating. We need some sort of DCD that can hardblock focus.

 

Got to 1665 before being bopped down to 1642 from 3 slingers focusing me, after reflect and ward it kinda became inevitable... fk dis meta.

 

Reflect needs to block melee attacks and heal for a small amount per tick of damage reflected.

Edited December 28, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[xMaranathax]

Yes, dps gear > Tank gear. Welcome to the current meta. It's ridiculous. This is the best viable option right now, too.

 

Personally, I would love to see Defense/Immortal REQUIRE tank gear. All tank disciplines should require tank gear. Make it so you can't even equip Power/Crit/Alacrity/Accuracy gear. Tanks should be tanks, not tanky dps.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Personally, I would love to see Defense/Immortal REQUIRE tank gear. All tank disciplines should require tank gear. Make it so you can't even equip Power/Crit/Alacrity/Accuracy gear. Tanks should be tanks, not tanky dps.

 

agreed, but dps spec is not even playable now

[GrandLordMenace]

agreed, but dps spec is not even playable now

 

It's doable, you just basically need to play like a sorc without a barrier or phasewalk: Run, and hope your enemy team focuses you so you can kite all over the map. It is *********** ridiculous how much work it is to get a respectable rating.

Edited December 30, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[Alec_Fortescue]

It's doable, you just basically need to play like a sorc without a barrier or phasewalk: Run, and hope your enemy team focuses you so you can kite all over the map. It is *********** ridiculous how much work it is to get a respectable rating.

 

Gratz on getting 1700 in dps spec. Damn, people on ebon hawk must be bad.

[stoopicus]

Personally, I would love to see Defense/Immortal REQUIRE tank gear. All tank disciplines should require tank gear. Make it so you can't even equip Power/Crit/Alacrity/Accuracy gear. Tanks should be tanks, not tanky dps.

 

Sorry but this is silly. Players should be free to gear their tanks however they want, it just simply shouldn't provide such advantages over the actual DPS spec.

 

The problem isn't that people CAN skank. It's that skanking is subjectively better than Vengeance. The solution is to fix Veng, not to gimp Immortal.

[xMaranathax]

Sorry but this is silly. Players should be free to gear their tanks however they want, it just simply shouldn't provide such advantages over the actual DPS spec.

 

The problem isn't that people CAN skank. It's that skanking is subjectively better than Vengeance. The solution is to fix Veng, not to gimp Immortal.

 

If that were the case, I should be able to use which ever stance I want to, but thats out of the question. I can see it now:

 

"In case you equip the wrong gear, tank disciplines can now only equip tank gear."

 

LOL

[stoopicus]

In extremis, if you aren't free to choose the gear you want, why not just make this a MOBA then, where you get to play either Tanky Tank or Stabby Stab the weeaboo anime character themed premades?

 

Choice isn't the problem here, it's Veng being gimpy in comparison to DPS Immortal.

[GrandLordMenace]

Gratz on getting 1700 in dps spec. Damn, people on ebon hawk must be bad.

 

Bit of both. You running tank or something?