The REAL Problem With RNG

[Sleepys]

The RNG itself is exciting, and that's no joke. The idea of getting crap or good stuff randomly is always exciting, but there is an underlying problem a lot of people don't seem to be talking about, and potentially aren't even noticing.

 

What made the thing you did fun? If it was questing? It was the fun of getting Rep for specific Rep gear. If it was PVP, it was to get more PVP gear. If you were the Hardmode PVE player, you probably were trying to get that next set piece, or another specific boss drop (this last one hasn't changed though).

 

With this new implementation of "play any style and get the same stuff", they've homogenized the game though. Now there's no point in doing one thing verses anything else. I didn't run heroics for a box filled with stuff I don't want, I did it for gear. You didn't PVP for a box with stuff you probably don't care about, you did it for gear and valor. The quest runners still get their rep, but the idea of getting crappy boxes of rep stuff doesn't excite them.

 

People want exclusivity. If I do a dungeon that is very difficult, I want to be rewarded for succeeding that difficult task. But if that same reward can be earned doing basic 2+ missions (which I have no issue soloing), then what's the point of doing the hard mode instances? I mean you can argue, "You get more CXP doing the instances than doing the missions", but to that I say "So what? I've never failed a heroic mission, ever. It NEVER happens. The risk/reward system has made doing everything pointless, and now you just seek to find the easiest way to get CXP.

 

Why SHOULD I even gear up? I don't need to run Ops to get the best gear. Ops are now infinitely less valuable to run, which means Hardmode instances are pointless. Now that PVP gear isn't a thing, PVPing has lost it's flair too. Now I don't need to strive for PVP gear, so why bother PVPing at all? When everything is the same thing, there is nothing to choose from. When all roads lead to Rome, how does one find any enjoyment from one road to the next?

 

The real problem with RNG is that endgame gear is part of it. If they made two identical stat sets, gave one to PVPers and one to PVEers, but they just looked different. Like the PVP ones looked more like they belonged to Emp/Reb militias, IE had Imp/Reb logos on them, and the PVE stuff looked less specific and has more universal appearances, you would not only have a reason to choose one over the other, but an incentive to do both if you liked both appearances. Then remove the rep items from the RNG and make those exclusive to Dailies, and make the CXP give you stuff like decorations, flair items, and costume stuff with no stats on it. Maybe super rarely you'll get cartel color crystal, or a special CXP only mount. Then the CXP would feel valuable, but so would the different means of GAINING CXP.

 

At the end of the day, you've removed the fun value of doing everything, and added it to a big dice roll, that's why people found that killing golds was the fast way to gain CXP just did that. This is game design 101, when all roads lead to Rome, people will always seek the shortest road, because why wouldn't they? Right now PVP is the fastest CXP earner, so now we see a lot of AFKing in PVP, and a lot of people who hate PVP doing it just to get the gear the fastest (and subsequently because they hate it, they aren't very good or vice versa).

 

It's fine to remove PVP stats from gear, but at least make PVPers stand out from PVEers in gear appearance. Let people shine with their accomplishments, or they won't want to accomplish.

[Andryah]

It's fine to remove PVP stats from gear, but at least make PVPers stand out from PVEers in gear appearance. Let people shine with their accomplishments, or they won't want to accomplish.

 

Let me introduce you to the Appearance Tabs.... where you can put every great piece of special PvP only gear you have ever obtained.. while still wearing what works best for you stat wise in the current release.

 

And as far as I know.. there is still Ranked PvP, with season rewards that can be visible to everyone and unique to ranked players of standing.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Andryah

[Aeristash]

Heroics aren't a good example to oppose RNG. One could run 5 heroics and get the exact same gear or gear they've already obtained the same number of times before they level up enough to no longer qualify for that gear. Heroics are RNG junior.

[DarthWoad]

Let me introduce you to the Appearance Tabs.... where you can put every great piece of special PvP only gear you have ever obtained.. while still wearing what works best for you stat wise in the current release.

 

And as far as I know.. there is still Ranked PvP, with season rewards that can be visible to everyone and unique to ranked players of standing.

 

I think the point flew directly over your head.

 

I think he's asking for unique gear that's not tied to the cartel market. As in, making PVP players stand out....which obviously implies unique PVP gear, much like armor sets released before. And AFAIK, there were no new armor or weapon sets in Season 7.

[Sleepys]

Let me introduce you to the Appearance Tabs.... where you can put every great piece of special PvP only gear you have ever obtained.. while still wearing what works best for you stat wise in the current release.

 

And as far as I know.. there is still Ranked PvP, with season rewards that can be visible to everyone and unique to ranked players of standing.

Yeah that appearance tab has absolutely nothing to what I'm talking about. My point is that there SHOULD be gear rewards specific to different tasks so there are reasons to do those different tasks, even if the only difference in the gear is the gear's appearance. Think like this, if you obtain the gear throgh PVE, it looks like gear relevant to the current story. Maybe Zakul themed gear. But if you get it in PVP, it's more relevant to your faction, like Stormtrooper armor or Bounty Hunter gear for Imp and Rebel Assault Armor and such for Pub.

 

As for the Ranked PvP stuff yeah, there is still stuff but it's like, a single mount, a couple pets, some decorations, and that's about it. If you like the mount you'll go for the mount, or something like that, but that's kind of my point. RANKED has specific gear so RANKED has a value, but if you don't like the rewards given by ranked pvp, then your only other option is just grinding until you get more boxes of random stuff. It used to be based on what you did, now it's just grinding whatever earns the most cxp until you get a random chance at stuff, or ranked pvp for a few small items.

 

Edit: But keep in mind, I'm not calling for the gear to have different stats, just appearance really would be enough.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Sleepys

[Sleepys]

Heroics aren't a good example to oppose RNG. One could run 5 heroics and get the exact same gear or gear they've already obtained the same number of times before they level up enough to no longer qualify for that gear. Heroics are RNG junior.

 

Heroics would give reputation though, which could be used to buy specific reputation items. Mounts, decorations, etc... That being said, rep items now drop in the boxes, so there's no specific reason to do heroics.

 

Instances dropped gear, the best you could get for PVE were in nim ops. And it scaled down to the next step up from story gear was crafted, then regular instances.

 

Now there is literally no distinction between the different ways to earn, they all earn exactly the same stuff. What makes you do one verses the other now? Either fanatical interest or obvious fastest method.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I think the point flew directly over your head.

 

I think he's asking for unique gear that's not tied to the cartel market. As in, making PVP players stand out....which obviously implies unique PVP gear, much like armor sets released before. And AFAIK, there were no new armor or weapon sets in Season 7.

 

Well, this unique gear is, or rather, was, there. My Sage still has his Campaign main piece. On my server (VC), he seems to be the only one wearing it, even though it is still available.

 

The sad thing is, that most unique looking gear got removed / deleted from the game. Aka no more vendors for it. especially for the low-level PvP gear. People just didn't buy it, because it had no Expertise coming with it - not noticing that the look of these clothing parts were in fact kind of unique. At least in some parts.

Or the Social Points clothing. No-one seems to use it. I hardly ever get to see the social armor from Taris [Republic].

 

Just look at TOR-Fashion to see how much got deleted. If it got introduced again, there would be new ways to outfit the character.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

one of my sages still enjoys her obroan shells with the little wings =):D:D

but yes, some unique rewards for doing content would super nice at this point, because clearly killing a raid boss and getting a... VERY SMALL ops CXP token is just hte highlight of my day, right?

[AscendingSky]

I've been arguing this point for a while. For people who want to tackle the hardest content, gear is not the end goal. They want the satisfaction of beating a challenge. They raid to get gear, yes, but it's so they can raid more and better.

 

This RNG system treats getting gear as the end goal. You don't need to do anything challenging to do it. You can solo Heroics on the low level planets, while waiting for a GSF match to pop and then repeatedly kamikaze against rocks, or while waiting for the PvP queue to pop so you can get one medal and then find a place to hide and AFK out the rest of the match.

 

There's no challenge in that. All it requires is patience for boredom and a willingness to deal with gambling. And now there's no incentive to do ops right now, because ops don't give gear. So you have to grind out levels and wait for RNGesus to smile on you before you can try challenging ops again. That could take weeks, or months, or even years if you don't have enough free time to treat TOR like a second job.

Edited December 10, 2016 by AscendingSky

[Andryah]

Yeah that appearance tab has absolutely nothing to what I'm talking about. My point is that there SHOULD be gear rewards specific to different tasks so there are reasons to do those different tasks, even if the only difference in the gear is the gear's appearance. Think like this, if you obtain the gear throgh PVE, it looks like gear relevant to the current story. Maybe Zakul themed gear. But if you get it in PVP, it's more relevant to your faction, like Stormtrooper armor or Bounty Hunter gear for Imp and Rebel Assault Armor and such for Pub.

 

Which is why I ALSO pointed out that they do still provide Ranked rewards, right? Hence, unique to PvP players who did the work and performed, and gives them the bragging rights some want to demonstrate what they did.

 

Not to mention... achievements.

 

I get that you want them to still provide PvP unique gear, but that ship has sailed, regardless of GC crates and GC in general. The removal has nothing to do with RNG.

 

And since it is cosmetics and not stats as you clarified above, there is literally so much in the way of appearance options in gearing these days.. I don't see the loss.

 

Are you saying you want PvP unique looks, but do not want to do ranked? Is that the unstated point here?

Edited December 10, 2016 by Andryah

[Hichitsuki-hime]

I've been arguing this point for a while. For people who want to tackle the hardest content, gear is not the end goal. They want the satisfaction of beating a challenge. They raid to get gear, yes, but it's so they can raid more and better.

well, in the situation where all these bosses have been out for 2+ years at least, it really isn't all that challenging, for dedicated raiders at least of course.

This RNG system treats getting gear as the end goal. You don't need to do anything challenging to do it. You can solo Heroics on the low level planets, while waiting for a GSF match to pop and then repeatedly kamikaze against rocks, or while waiting for the PvP queue to pop so you can get one medal and then find a place to hide and AFK out the rest of the match.

i'll admit, if i seee a guy hiding in a corner, i make sure to extricate them out of it lol. they made the mistake of launching this new system without any good new content to go along with it...

There's no challenge in that. All it requires is patience for boredom and a willingness to deal with gambling. And now there's no incentive to do ops right now, because ops don't give gear. So you have to grind out levels and wait for RNGesus to smile on you before you can try challenging ops again. That could take weeks, or months, or even years if you don't have enough free time to treat TOR like a second job.

.... all hail da rnjeezuz:D:D:D

[RagnarAugustus]

I've been arguing this point for a while. For people who want to tackle the hardest content, gear is not the end goal. They want the satisfaction of beating a challenge. They raid to get gear, yes, but it's so they can raid more and better..

 

YES finally someone who gets it! I too have been arguing this for a while...especially your last sentence we raid to get better gear to progress to harder content, we don't raid to get gear - gear is a means to an end. The reason why so many raiders are livid (and I assume the PVP guys too) is because we had a very good gearing mechanic before 5.0. We had known loot tables and it was alt friendly so guild ops teams could plan out raid team gearing so even when a level cap was increased we could re-gear in a timely manner and get back to work clearing HM and NM content.

 

Pre-5.0 we could also help out our other guild's raid teams by gearing an offspec and gearing alts so we can fill in on their Ops teams if they have an absence on a scheduled raid night, or do a unscheduled raid fun run without locking out our main toon. Now we're basically stuck on one toon due to the toon based CXP and RNG gearing and now have to rely on the benevolence of the fickle RNG gods to gear. The removal of Unassembled Ops tokens subjects us to the same RNG slot machine that very easy non-raid PVE content uses completely derails raid gearing strategies. Also the drops from raids now are trash items only, I haven't seen one item that I felt the need to have...so much for all of those "exclusive cosmetic and vanity items" in raids that they promised.

Edited December 10, 2016 by RagnarAugustus

[casirabit]

Yeah that appearance tab has absolutely nothing to what I'm talking about. My point is that there SHOULD be gear rewards specific to different tasks so there are reasons to do those different tasks, even if the only difference in the gear is the gear's appearance. Think like this, if you obtain the gear throgh PVE, it looks like gear relevant to the current story. Maybe Zakul themed gear. But if you get it in PVP, it's more relevant to your faction, like Stormtrooper armor or Bounty Hunter gear for Imp and Rebel Assault Armor and such for Pub.

 

As for the Ranked PvP stuff yeah, there is still stuff but it's like, a single mount, a couple pets, some decorations, and that's about it. If you like the mount you'll go for the mount, or something like that, but that's kind of my point. RANKED has specific gear so RANKED has a value, but if you don't like the rewards given by ranked pvp, then your only other option is just grinding until you get more boxes of random stuff. It used to be based on what you did, now it's just grinding whatever earns the most cxp until you get a random chance at stuff, or ranked pvp for a few small items.

 

Edit: But keep in mind, I'm not calling for the gear to have different stats, just appearance really would be enough.

 

 

Except some people hate the look for pve or pvp gear. My boyfriend does pvp and he always hated the look so he used the appearance tab so he unless you examined him you would not see pvp gear.

 

Same for me and some of the pve gear. Some of the gear is ugly (my opinion) and even though I used it I have 16 slots of appearance gear just so I don't have to show that ugly gear.