RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[Aowin]

Rng is a total ********.

I have 5 toons at level 70

1 = cxp level 48 and has 3 settokens 230

2 = cxp level 26 and has 1 settokens 230

3 = cxp level 24 and has 0 settokens 230

4 = cxp level 20 and has 0 settokens 230

5 = cxp level 10 and has 0 settokens 230

and this rng makes me just more and more angry...

 

The intention is to slow gear progression, which RNG achieves with flying colors. The issue some take with this approach is the lack of certainty, which BioWare is addressing for raiders and PvPers. 5.1 will only work if these new paths comport and compliment Galactic Command. If acquiring gear becomes too easy with raiding and PvP, then it leads to the exact same problems 4.0 had with causing gear inequalities among varying groups.

 

It's fine for there to be certainty and to work towards a particular piece of gear, but the grind should still be substantial and acquiring BiS should require time and effort. Whether that means a few weeks or a few months to get to that point is a matter of debate and execution on the part of BioWare Austin.

 

Time sinks are necessary for all MMOs and SWTOR has desperately been in need of some quality time sinks for quite some time.

[blackphantome]

The intention is to slow gear progression, which RNG achieves with flying colors. The issue some take with this approach is the lack of certainty, which BioWare is addressing for raiders and PvPers. 5.1 will only work if these new paths comport and compliment Galactic Command. If acquiring gear becomes too easy with raiding and PvP, then it leads to the exact same problems 4.0 had with causing gear inequalities among varying groups.

 

It's fine for there to be certainty and to work towards a particular piece of gear, but the grind should still be substantial and acquiring BiS should require time and effort. Whether that means a few weeks or a few months to get to that point is a matter of debate and execution on the part of BioWare Austin.

 

Time sinks are necessary for all MMOs and SWTOR has desperately been in need of some quality time sinks for quite some time.

 

Happy new year to you and everyone else!

 

Greetz from Germany! (We are in 2017 already)

[DarthSpuds]

Time sinks are necessary for all MMOs and SWTOR has desperately been in need of some quality time sinks for quite some time.

 

Content is usually a time sink.

 

That you think this CXP grind is, to your words, a "quality time sink" lends further weight to the claim you are a Bioware sock-puppet.

 

Because no one else in their right mind would use the "quality" as a descriptor for CXP unless it was prefaced with "bad".

 

All The best

[Khevar]

The intention is to slow gear progression, which RNG achieves with flying colors.

Very poorly.

 

As I've stated before, the players that fall on the right-hand side of the random distribution curve obtain gear quickly. Some players have reported obtaining several pieces of purple 230 gear with set bonuses within a dozen levels of GC.

 

The players in the middle of the curve have been slowed down to (possibly?) Bioware's target of gear aquisition.

 

The players that fall on the left-hand side of the curve have been slowed down below the target. Some players have gone 70+ levels without obtaining such gear.

 

Do you agree? Disagree? What say you to this?

Edited January 1, 2017 by Khevar

[Aowin]

Very poorly.

 

As I've stated before, the players that fall on the right-hand side of the random distribution curve obtain gear quickly. Some players have reported obtaining several pieces of purple 230 gear with set bonuses within a dozen levels of GC.

 

The players in the middle of the curve have been slowed down to (possibly?) Bioware's target of gear aquisition.

 

The players that fall on the left-hand side of the curve have been slowed down below the target. Some players have gone 70+ levels without obtaining such gear.

 

Do you agree? Disagree? What say you to this?

 

As with every system, there are shortcomings. This is why the 5.1 patch is being implemented to counteract the negative effects those at the bottom of the bell curve are feeling.

 

BioWare isn't so concerned with those who just happen to be lucky. They get their gear faster. Lucky them. Still not as fast as 4.0 where you have PvP BiS the moment you hit max level and doing raids wouldn't take much longer to get the PvE equivalent.

 

What 5.1 hopes to achieve is adding certainty and to provide a way for those who aren't so lucky to get pieces they need. Really, 5.1 resolves many of the complaints folks have with the system as it stands.

[DanNV]

The intention is to slow gear progression, which RNG achieves with flying colors. The issue some take with this approach is the lack of certainty, which BioWare is addressing for raiders and PvPers. 5.1 will only work if these new paths comport and compliment Galactic Command. If acquiring gear becomes too easy with raiding and PvP, then it leads to the exact same problems 4.0 had with causing gear inequalities among varying groups.

 

The RNG gearing is actually making inequality worse and does not reward effort. Both are bad.

 

It's fine for there to be certainty and to work towards a particular piece of gear, but the grind should still be substantial and acquiring BiS should require time and effort. Whether that means a few weeks or a few months to get to that point is a matter of debate and execution on the part of BioWare Austin.

 

For some reason you are stuck on BiS, still. How about just gear to do the content we want to do, that we were doing before this poor excuse for an expansion launched? That isn't BiS gear. That's 230 set gear. That's a good bit below BiS. And it shouldn't take months to get to that kind of gear. Not when there is no new content to go with it. Forcing a grind of any kind to get to OLD content is foolish at best. Making that grind RNG is utterly stupid, and with luck will cost Ben and a few others their employment.

 

Time sinks are necessary for all MMOs and SWTOR has desperately been in need of some quality time sinks for quite some time.

 

You don't put time sinks to get to OLD content. The time sink is in getting to new content, which BW seems to be unable to produce.

 

And, just for interest, you seem convinced the RNG is to slow down gearing. It isn't directly. It is an attempt to fulfill the promise to EA investors that they would keep subs, increase subs and increase the time those subs play. See the EA quarterly financials that you seem to want to ignore.

[DanNV]

As with every system, there are shortcomings. This is why the 5.1 patch is being implemented to counteract the negative effects those at the bottom of the bell curve are feeling.

 

5.1 is a smoke screen. It barely addresses the complaints, it's just an attempt to string those subs along a little longer.

 

BioWare isn't so concerned with those who just happen to be lucky. They get their gear faster. Lucky them. Still not as fast as 4.0 where you have PvP BiS the moment you hit max level and doing raids wouldn't take much longer to get the PvE equivalent.

 

I take it you never actually did much progression raiding. You didn't get BiS gear immediately, or even close to it. After 14 months, I still wasn't in full 224. You're showing your ignorance of how the gearing worked and what BiS actually is.

 

What 5.1 hopes to achieve is adding certainty and to provide a way for those who aren't so lucky to get pieces they need. Really, 5.1 resolves many of the complaints folks have with the system as it stands.

 

5.1 doesn't fix anything. It's still RNG, it's still way too slow to actually get back to doing OLD content. All it does is attempt to keep a bunch of us from quitting before our subs count for another quarter.

[Aowin]

The RNG gearing is actually making inequality worse and does not reward effort. Both are bad.

 

Nothing but conjecture with no factual basis. We understand you don't like RNG. However, anyone who has a basic understanding of charts and statistics knows that the standard bell curve applies. 80% of the community is achieving gear at an intended rate. 10% of the community is achieving gear faster than intended. 10% of the community is achieving gear slower than intended. 5.1 is largely meant to help the 10% who are behind the other 80%.

 

For some reason you are stuck on BiS, still. How about just gear to do the content we want to do, that we were doing before this poor excuse for an expansion launched? That isn't BiS gear. That's 230 set gear. That's a good bit below BiS. And it shouldn't take months to get to that kind of gear. Not when there is no new content to go with it. Forcing a grind of any kind to get to OLD content is foolish at best. Making that grind RNG is utterly stupid, and with luck will cost Ben and a few others their employment.

 

You don't need 230 gear to do Master Mode Operations. You can do them just fine with 224 rating gear. It has already been done by progression raid guilds. As I have to continuously state time and time again, gear is not a requirement for progression raiding. It is a luxury and a crutch for those who need that extra gear due to a lack of skill.

 

This content may be "OLD" for you, but do you really represent the average SWTOR player? That's doubtful. KOTFE and KOTET have seen the resurgence of this game, bringing a lot of old folks and new folks. Many players still have likely never participated in operations, let alone the harder modes. Why was the participation rate in raids so low? Largely because of bad gear progression and a system in which it wasn't easy for newcomers to participate.

 

Galactic Command changes all of that and makes raiding far more accessible than ever before. Again, while it might not be new or exciting for you, there are plenty of players who are finally able to participate in that content for the first time and are thankful for it. It's always in poor taste to wish financial harm on others merely because you do not agree with their opinions.

 

You don't put time sinks to get to OLD content. The time sink is in getting to new content, which BW seems to be unable to produce.

 

And, just for interest, you seem convinced the RNG is to slow down gearing. It isn't directly. It is an attempt to fulfill the promise to EA investors that they would keep subs, increase subs and increase the time those subs play. See the EA quarterly financials that you seem to want to ignore.

 

Again, you make an error in assuming you are the target audience. When did BioWare ever say that you were the target audience. As you seem to suggest that you are a raider, it would seem rather obvious you haven't been the target audience in two years. What perplexes me is why you would think this would somehow change.

 

BioWare is always looking to increase player retention. This isn't some new revelation. The flaw in your logic is believing RNG is the main mechanism for encouraging subscriber retention. It is not. You are literally unable to participate in most of the endgame content and obtain endgame gear if you are not a subscriber. RNG is merely a means of elongating that experience, so yes it very much is a time sink.

[Aowin]

5.1 is a smoke screen. It barely addresses the complaints, it's just an attempt to string those subs along a little longer.

 

5.1 addresses most of the reasonable complaints players have put forth. Anything beyond that is likely unreasonable and likely something BioWare will never do.

 

I take it you never actually did much progression raiding. You didn't get BiS gear immediately, or even close to it. After 14 months, I still wasn't in full 224. You're showing your ignorance of how the gearing worked and what BiS actually is.

 

Considering I was the first Jedi Guardian to have a full set of Rakata on my server at launch, I think I know a thing or two about how progression raiding works in this game. Ironically enough, it was actually harder back then as gear drops were completely random and there were no tokens.

 

Obviously, you missed the distinction I made where I stated PvPers got BiS immediately upon hitting max level. Raiders actually had to get the tokens from operations, but it wasn't hard and it didn't take that long if you had a good progression group. The fact that you still do not have full 224 rating does not mean gear progression was a challenge, it merely means you were not in a competent raid group.

 

5.1 doesn't fix anything. It's still RNG, it's still way too slow to actually get back to doing OLD content. All it does is attempt to keep a bunch of us from quitting before our subs count for another quarter.

 

Again, you don't need new gear for the "OLD content." You can complain all you want, but RNG is here to stay and 5.1 is likely the most BioWare will do to provide certainty in the system. As I've already stated many times, you are not the target audience. While I'm sure BioWare doesn't want you to go, this game has changed tactics and focus since KOTFE. It seems quite obvious that your ideal play style is no longer supported in the way that you'd like.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Aowin

[curulz]

Nothing but conjecture with no factual basis. We understand you don't like RNG. However, anyone who has a basic understanding of charts and statistics knows that the standard bell curve applies. 80% of the community is achieving gear at an intended rate. 10% of the community is achieving gear faster than intended. 10% of the community is achieving gear slower than intended. 5.1 is largely meant to help the 10% who are behind the other 80%..

 

OK, conjecture ...where are your stats that the system is currently at the 80/10/10 dispersion you subscribe to? or is that just conjecture on your part as well? any evidence at all about the distribution curve?

 

 

excellent, more opinions w/o factual evidence to support it. You chastised others for this same thing, so care to back this up?

[LordArtemis]

I guess if there was any kind of hope of coming to some sort of consensus or common ground, it would likely start with a few inquiries.

 

How many hardcore players feel that 4.0 likely provided gear too quickly compared to the past? Remember, that question stands outside of the current system in place.

 

I suppose that would likely need to be answered before any real progress can be made in the discussion.

Edited January 1, 2017 by LordArtemis

[TehStevo]

Greatest troll thread 2016. I enjoy the commitment OP has to respond to people critiquing their bait. 10/10.

[Aowin]

OK, conjecture ...where are your stats that the system is currently at the 80/10/10 dispersion you subscribe to? or is that just conjecture on your part as well? any evidence at all about the distribution curve

 

The percentages are an example. You are familiar with a bell curve and how numbers are generally distributed in a random scenario? Yes? Most players will always fall in the middle of the curve while a minority will be in the front and a minority will be in the back. Again, while some may have absolutely horrible luck, a majority of players will not.

 

excellent, more opinions w/o factual evidence to support it. You chastised others for this same thing, so care to back this up?

 

There is no opinion here. It is true that KOTFE was the most successful expansion for SWTOR to date and ushered in a new generation of fans. The expansion also saw the return of many former players who decided to give the game another chance after the disappointing results of ROTHC and SOR.

 

For the last time, raiders are a minority and have not been the focus for quite some time. As many like to state time and time again, most raiders left this game years ago. If this is to be believed, then it's also likely that those who are left likely never participated in raids, let alone the harder modes of those raids.

 

This is basic and simple deductive reasoning. The problem is you, as well as other raiders, continue to assume that you represent the majority. To you, all of this is old content being recycled. For others? It's brand new content they either never got to experience or never had the ability to experience.

 

Once you understand who SWTOR's target audience is, the decisions BioWare is making are far easier to understand.

[Khevar]

BioWare isn't so concerned with those who just happen to be lucky. They get their gear faster. Lucky them.

I'm disappointed to see you say this.

 

You see, it goes against this idea you keep putting forth that Bioware is trying to "slow down progression"

 

In the past, progression could be sped up with skill. With planning. With foresight. And with an understanding of the game and how to play it.

 

Now, "sped up" progression is only in the hands of the so-called "lucky".

 

How is this fun?

Edited January 1, 2017 by Khevar

[Aowin]

I'm disappointed to see you say this.

 

You see, it goes against this idea you keep putting forth that Bioware is trying to "slow down progression"

 

In the past, progression could be sped up with skill. With planning. With foresight. And with an understanding of the game and how to play it.

 

Now, "sped up" progression is only in the hands of the so-called "lucky".

 

How is this fun?

 

BioWare is slowing down progression. There is just a small minority who just so happens to be lucky enough to progress faster than the rest.

 

Keep in mind, under 5.1, command crates are only part of the calculus. If you happen to get your entire set bonus from crates, alone, great. If you happen to be in the majority that does not, then you have a certain path through either PvP or raiding.

 

While you are getting command tokens and acquiring unassembled pieces, you still will obtain command crates that could drop set pieces you need. This is a win/win situation as there are merely more avenues for acquiring gear.

 

Yes, command crates aren't guaranteed to give you what you want. However, part of the intention of command crates is they were meant to be a surprise every time you open one. This is what Ben was alluding to when he suggested RNG was "exciting." There is something inherently exciting about always having a chance of winning big and getting something rare.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I'm disappointed to see you say this.

 

You see, it goes against this idea you keep putting forth that Bioware is trying to "slow down progression"

 

In the past, progression could be sped up with skill. With planning. With foresight. And with an understanding of the game and how to play it.

 

Now, "sped up" progression is only in the hands of the so-called "lucky".

 

How is this fun?

 

I commend you on perseverance of keeping on at this guy but out of curiosity do you feel ( as I do ) that he is clearly at times trolling everyone and more or less arguing for the sake of arguing?

 

I guess it depends on ones definition of trolling but by definition it doesn't really have to be someone who is overly abusive etc. - just someone trying to get a rise out of others for the most part and in this he is being fairly subtle.

 

I mean this whole "lucky" thing is just plain silly - the progression speed is made to favor those with the most time to put in plain and simple. I honestly don't believe Aowin is so lacking in intelligence as to even try make this argument and basically contradict himself as he seems to often do which is why I keep returning to the troll point.

 

To me this whole thread is he will argue legitimately with anyone he feels he can actually make a legitimate argument against but anytime people put up an argument against him he can't refute it turns to nonsense and then ignorance of the points made against him.

 

Anyway, points for perseverance as I said.

[Khevar]

There is something inherently exciting about always having a chance of winning big and getting something rare.

Exciting? Only if you win. The more times you've become disappointed, the less "exciting" it becomes.

 

I don't know about you, but when I'm playing an RPG that has level and gear-based progression (most of them, to be honest), I find it fun when I obtain rewards based off of merit, skill and accomplishment.

 

And along those lines, what I find really exciting, is succeeding at something difficult. A close PvP match. A challenging boss fight. Not opening a loot crate.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Khevar

[Aowin]

Exciting? Only if you win. The more times you've become disappointed, the less "exciting" it becomes.

 

I don't know about you, but when I'm playing an RPG that has level and gear-based progression (most of them, to be honest), I find it fun when I obtain rewards based off of merit, skill and accomplishment.

 

And along those lines, what I find really exciting, is succeeding at something difficult. A close PvP match. A challenging boss fight. Not opening a loot crate.

 

While it's nice to win, the whole point of the unpredictable nature is to make every crate opening a surprise. If everything was just expected and designated in an obvious path, there would be no unpredictability or excitement.

 

A system of achievement and quality effort is obviously a major part of the MMORPG experience. That's not just exclusive to gear, however. Creating that sense of satisfaction can be done in a multitude of ways. Gear has never truly been difficult to acquire in this game. It was very awkwardly implemented and frustrating at launch, but never really hard compared to many other MMOs.

 

I think the level of excitement with regard to command crates could be bolstered if there were more interesting items to discover in them. Perhaps BioWare could consider throwing in old CM packs in command crates. Give players a small chance at getting something incredibly rare that they could either use or sell on the GTN. Again, a sense of achievement doesn't have to be exclusive to gear. There certainly was no sense of achievement in getting gear during 4.0, as it was far too easy and lacked challenge.

[DarthSpuds]

While it's nice to win, the whole point of the unpredictable nature is to make every crate opening a surprise. If everything was just expected and designated in an obvious path, there would be no unpredictability or excitement.

 

Do you give your kids empty presents at Xmas?

If not, why not?

 

It's "exciting" you know, they'll love it...

 

All The Best

[MadCuzBad]

Do you give your kids empty presents at Xmas?

If not, why not?

 

It's "exciting" you know, they'll love it...

 

All The Best

 

Well said sir

[Khevar]

While it's nice to win, the whole point of the unpredictable nature is to make every crate opening a surprise. If everything was just expected and designated in an obvious path, there would be no unpredictability or excitement.

The excitement should come from the content itself.

 

The unpredictability should come from paying with other people, as people are unpredictable.

 

Both of those are enjoyable experiences. It's not enjoyable to open a loot crate with a high chance of it containing nothing desirable.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Khevar

[Aowin]

Do you give your kids empty presents at Xmas?

If not, why not?

 

It's "exciting" you know, they'll love it...

 

All The Best

 

The "excitement" is the mystery of what is under the wrapping paper. You never know what it is until you actually open it. Sure, it may not be something you want. However, there's always the chance it could be something you love. BioWare is trying to add that level of intrigue to the game that simply was not there previously. There was no excitement about gear in 4.0. Players came to expect it being handed to them on a silver platter and that was detrimental to the health and stability of gear progression in the game.

[DarthSpuds]

There was no excitement about gear in 4.0. Players came to expect it being handed to them on a silver platter and that was detrimental to the health and stability of gear progression in the game.

 

Yes there was.

 

I was excited that SWtOR finally had a system that meant if I put in the effort I would get commensurately rewarded, I chose my level of effort, and so the level of reward I could obtain.

 

None of it was handed on a silver platter, we didn't get anything for free. Gear progression was dictated by the amount of effort put in.

 

Now gear progression is dictated by "chance". Effort is meaningless, skill is meaningless, commitment to the game is meaningless. Content progression is meaningless - because there is no new content to progress through.

 

Chance determine which level of gear you get, and that determines which level of OLD and STALE content you get to REPLAY, again and again and again - just to be at the same level of progression as you were BEFORE 5.0 launched.

 

Go on, tell me again how that is good for the game.

 

You sure won't convince me, but you may start to convince you.

 

All The Best

Edited January 1, 2017 by DarthSpuds

[Nireesh]

Ok, I hope this gets read. Some good points made. Here's my take, and I hope it is read:

 

I really like the new system of RNG, but at the same time I hate it. Why? Because you don't get rewarded immediately for your time spent. For example, I spent 1.5hrs just today doing the final chapter of KOTET. I enjoyed it, but when I saw I got 240 cxp for it, I was disappointed. THAT is the key problem and why so many people are annoyed in my opinion.

 

Let me first point out that getting good gear by doing whatever in game is cool and I like the idea (if you spend the time to get it). The problem is that everyone wants the best end-gear level now.

 

My proposed solution.. create tears of achievement. So tier 1 would be cxp level 100. By that level, you will get a whole bunch of stuff (like you do today), but maybe guarantee 1 set-bonus item at 230. Then, at 200, you'd get a couple set-bonus items at the next level, etc.

 

Then, at least people would know what to expect (setting expectations), whilst giving people goals to go for (the higher level gear still). I know this 'sort of exists', but it needs to be shown to players. Basically show them how much they are advancing or they will think they aren't achieving anything for the time they are spending working on the goal.

 

Also, spending 1.5hrs working on a story chapter for 240cxp where you can get (I don't know), but maybe 1000cxp (guess) in wz's for the same amount of time, seems wrong. It should be time-based (with a little bit of skill for sure).

 

Just my two cents anyways. I love the game and KOTET and want to see more people playing

[Aowin]

Yes there was.

 

I was excited that SWtOR finally had a system that meant if I put in the effort I would get commensurately rewarded, I chose my level of effort, and so the level of reward I could obtain.

 

None of it was handed on a silver platter, we didn't get anything for free. Gear progression was dictated by the amount of effort put in.

 

Now gear progression is dictated by "chance". Effort is meaningless, skill is meaningless, commitment to the game is meaningless. Content progression is meaningless - because there is no new content to progress through.

 

Chance determine which level of gear you get, and that determines which level of OLD and STALE content you get to REPLAY, again and again and again - just to be at the same level of progression as you were BEFORE 5.0 launched.

 

Go on, tell me again how that is good for the game.

 

You sure won't convince me, but you may start to convince you.

 

All The Best

 

You and I clearly played a different 4.0. Gear progression in 4.0 was a joke. There was no satisfaction. Effort was so minimal it ultimately didn't even matter. There was no sense of achievement because gear was too easy to come by.

 

If the game truly upsets you that much, then I would vote with your wallet and move on to something else unless BioWare reverts course. That's unlikely to happen, but obviously you aren't happy with any of BioWare's decisions. Why suffer?