RNG is perfect for SWTOR and I'll explain why.

[Tsetso]

why is RNG good??:eek: ---- it's NOT:D:D:D

and yeah, we've been trying to make mister OP to explain just why exactly is rng good, but he deflects / derails / ignores our attempts with great tenacity. it almost seems like in his head GC === RNG:D:D:eek::eek:

 

Let's not be extreme. RNG is in fact quite good for things like monte carlo algorithm, ray-tracing, etc. It has a lot of applications. It's just not appropriate to use as gearing mechanism in an mmo.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Tsetso

[peter_plankskull]

Let's not be extreme. RNG is in fact quite good for things like monte carlo algorithm, ray-tracing, etc. It has a lot of applications. It's just not appropriate to use as gearing mechanism in an mmo.

 

Careful now, EA is gunna git yuuuu.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I just did chapter 5 took roughly an hour ( took my time since there's nothing else to do for me once I'm done with chapters ). My GC rank is 4 ... I gained half a level if that.

 

Working as intended? Lol.

 

This.Is.Not.Fun.Or.Exciting.

 

And all of THAT is before I even gain a level to then be eligible for RNG. Really?

[Aowin]

Now you're the one who is comparing apples to oranges.

 

On one hand you have a 75% chance of not getting a BM commendation and on the other, from the looks of things, an even worse chance of getting useful gear from the CG boxes. Both are idiotic and in both you have more of a chance to get more useless stuff than useful.

 

The RNG that existed before was manageable because people could help one another in lessening its effects. If you ran a PUG you accepted the fact that you might not get anything. Though some did run with the loot rule of "one purple item each". So while you may not get your set piece with the pug, you would at least get something.

 

If you ran with a set, or semi set, guild team you were pretty much guaranteed a full set of armor eventually.

 

The more group content you ran, especially with a guild, the less the RNG effected you. With the current system, it doesn't matter if you do group content or not your RNG is your RNG and no one is going to be able to help you with it if your luck is terrible.

 

"Useful gear" is a matter of opinion. For some, the gear might be a massive upgrade. For others, it may only be a marginal improvement. At least you are getting gear, where with Battlemaster Bags you'd oftentimes got nothing. If you can't see the distinction, then you don't understand the intricacies of RNG enough to realize how it can be a useful mechanism.

 

Thus, the system is far more equal because no one has a clear advantage over anyone else. Obviously, those in guilds benefited the most from the previous system, which is why there were so many inequalities in gear progression. That is no longer the case, and that is what is upsetting many folks who are in guilds dedicated to gear progression. Your function has ceased to be practical.

 

You are forced to share a piece of the pie and you do not like it.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Aowin

[StupidWiz]

You are forced to share a piece of the pie and you do not like it.

Agreed, that's what I've been thinking when looking at this doom and gloom debacle.

[Aowin]

Agreed, that's what I've been thinking when looking at this doom and gloom debacle.

 

This is merely an uncomfortable transition for those who have been spoiled rotten by an incredibly simple and largely pointless progression system of the past. They do not like that their desire for instant gratification is being severely diminished, but they will come to accept it or look for alternatives elsewhere. BioWare has made their position crystal clear that this system is here to stay. I see no benefit or point in trying to fight the tide. May as well accept it and look at ways for improving the new system in place. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Aowin

[DariusCalera]

"Useful gear" is a matter of opinion. For some, the gear might be a massive upgrade. For others, it may only be a marginal improvement. At least you are getting gear, where with Battlemaster Bags you'd oftentimes got nothing. If you can't see the distinction, then you don't understand the intricacies of RNG enough to realize how it can be a useful mechanism.

 

Thus, the system is far more equal because no one has a clear advantage over anyone else. Obviously, those in guilds benefited the most from the previous system, which is why there were so many inequalities in gear progression. That is no longer the case, and that is what is upsetting many folks who are in guilds dedicated to gear progression. Your function has ceased to be practical.

 

You are forced to share a piece of the pie and you do not like it.

 

It has nothing to do about sharing and the inequalities of the previous system were directly tied to the amount of effort a person put in. If you wanted the 224 gear you most certainly could get it if you really wanted to.

 

If a person can go from 1 to over 100 and not get anything useful in 100 crates then there is an issue and yes, that has happened. This is a bad system.

 

While, yes, "useful" is matter of opinion at some point even the people that were happy to get the green and blues are going to get tired of getting nothing but green and leave.

 

This was put in to artificially extend the grind due to lack of content and not, as you say, bring equality to the gearing system.

[ivanhedgehog]

I'm not talking about loot drops pre-5.0 in raids being RNG. I'm talking about getting a group or guild to do raids, to begin with, was RNG. Some folks were lucky and found guilds that could carry them through raids. Others were not so lucky and never had the opportunity. That's the kind of RNG BioWare has no control over and was inevitably worse. At least with the RNG we have now, BioWare can resolve any issues with the system.

 

Again, this is a two-prong system. Galactic Command, or more specifically CXP, is a means of providing inclusiveness. RNG in conjunction with Galactic Command, is a way of slowing progression. You cannot have one without the other as removing RNG would simply increase progression back to ridiculous rates as was the case pre-5.0. BioWare, clearly, wants to slow progression and RNG is an effective means of doing that.

 

RNG is random number generator. It is a construct made up of programming code.No one has ever ever ever made some code construct to determine if you have the ability to make friends. That isnt at all random. That is strictly on you. Are you friendly and can you communicate in whole sentences? or are you an ****** that demands people go RIGHT NOW and run you through content to get gear. I have seen some one join a guild and demand that people form a raid to get him gear( there were a grand total of 5 other people omline). when he didnt get results in less than 10 min, he quit the guild with a stream of foul language. if you keep having problems like this, it might be you.

[ivanhedgehog]

Shush. We live in era of I want it NOW without any effort and everyone is equal in every aspect.

 

or at least people will try to tell you we do. I see a lot less of that than some people would make you think. I see college students working hard and studying their asses off to get good grades and succeed in life. But people will try to tell you that "they all want it now". Having worked at a University for 25 years, I will tell you things havent really changed. some work hard, some dont. some things will never change.

[Quraswren]

SNIP....

Thus, the system is far more equal because no one has a clear advantage over anyone else.

 

SNIP...

 

That is a lie.

 

the lucky have a clear advantage.

The ones that have time to grind longer also get an advantage as they get more attempts at gear.

Those in guild have an advantage as they can grind more faster.

 

Having RNG just so we can say you can do any content for a chance at gear is massively disingenuous to the travesty GC brings.

 

At least in 4.0 there was crystal gear and anyone could get it without having to worry about RNG. Just effort.

At least in 4.0 if you wanted higher end gear you could work for it and get it. no so in 5.0. Work all you want so RNG can screw you over. Work all you want and not a single person in game can help you because of RNG.

 

5.0 is not more equal. Its a whole lot harsher on everyone just to we can say do any content for gear. There are massive problems that come with the ability to say that, that are just not worth it.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Quraswren

[Groncho]

The only way to defend RNG and the lolcrates is

 

A) you are a dev

B) you are a dev's family

c) you don't play this game

[KristianBurke]

I've got an honest question from someone who has never been on the leading edge of gear. If someone was totally maxed BiS in 4.0 (was that 124?) and then 5.0 released without GC or any of the other CxP changes, just another iterative step up in gear, difficultly, etc. like a lot of folks here seemed to have wanted (along with a new raid)--how long would it take under that system to upgrade your gear to the next BiS?

 

I understand raids have lockouts and such that keep you from grinding them over and over, but details of what all dropped before, etc. are a mystery to me. How long would it have taken for one of these well-oiled guilds to get enough drops, tokens, etc. to get to BiS after a new expansion drops?

[RafaelPeretz]

Inclusiveness. It's really that simple. I've been playing this game since closed beta. I've participated in every major update and every major expansion. This game has slowly but surely been streamlined (some would argue simplified) over time. The goal? To make a more inclusive and accepting experience.

 

In the old progression system everyone were included. You needed a piece of gear? You just had to go and get it. Simple and fair, can't be more streamlined as that. This new system included everyone in pure mediocrity: you grind a lot of stuff, get a lot of things you don't need, grind again and hope.

 

No one benefits. The time you lose will never get back. And I mean for real, in your life.

And thats why people don't like to waste it. Whats the point to play for hours and not get rewarded?

 

This game will become like any other f2p crap, where you must buy boosts to win. Very inclusive heh?

Edited December 11, 2016 by RafaelPeretz

[Groncho]

I've got an honest question from someone who has never been on the leading edge of gear. If someone was totally maxed BiS in 4.0 (was that 124?) and then 5.0 released without GC or any of the other CxP changes, just another iterative step up in gear, difficultly, etc. like a lot of folks here seemed to have wanted (along with a new raid)--how long would it take under that system to upgrade your gear to the next BiS?

 

I understand raids have lockouts and such that keep you from grinding them over and over, but details of what all dropped before, etc. are a mystery to me. How long would it have taken for one of these well-oiled guilds to get enough drops, tokens, etc. to get to BiS after a new expansion drops?

 

dunno, but it would take a X amount of time, with this system there is no time limit

[KristianBurke]

dunno, but it would take a X amount of time, with this system there is no time limit

 

Oh rly? I had no idea.... /s

 

Actually cared about what the answer was, obviously it was finite and obviously current RNG is indeterminate.

[Aowin]

RNG is random number generator. It is a construct made up of programming code.No one has ever ever ever made some code construct to determine if you have the ability to make friends. That isnt at all random. That is strictly on you. Are you friendly and can you communicate in whole sentences? or are you an ****** that demands people go RIGHT NOW and run you through content to get gear. I have seen some one join a guild and demand that people form a raid to get him gear( there were a grand total of 5 other people omline). when he didnt get results in less than 10 min, he quit the guild with a stream of foul language. if you keep having problems like this, it might be you.

 

The point of the comparison was to highlight the reality that no player was guaranteed gear, as you seem to keep suggesting. Players were lucky. Whether you want to recognize it or not, everybody is not going to find the right group or the right raid guild to help them achieve BiS gear. What you are suggesting is pure fantasy and not reality, which is why BioWare has taken these drastic measures.

 

As I already indicated, a system in which does not provide players with any assurances of getting gear is left up to chance. Chance is unpredictable. Unpredictable is randomness. Randomness is RNG. Whether you agree with the assurances in place now or not, it cannot be disputed that everybody has an even playing field. Players who did not have the right guilds and are not familiar with MMOs will benefit greatly from this transition.

[BoySaber]

The point of the comparison was to highlight the reality that no player was guaranteed gear, as you seem to keep suggesting. Players were lucky. Whether you want to recognize it or not, everybody is not going to find the right group or the right raid guild to help them achieve BiS gear. What you are suggesting is pure fantasy and not reality, which is why BioWare has taken these drastic measures.

 

As I already indicated, a system in which does not provide players with any assurances of getting gear is left up to chance. Chance is unpredictable. Unpredictable is randomness. Randomness is RNG. Whether you agree with the assurances in place now or not, it cannot be disputed that everybody has an even playing field. Players who did not have the right guilds and are not familiar with MMOs will benefit greatly from this transition.

They will not, because that's Galactic Command that gives them access to play for gear they could not before. The RNG prevents them to get it. You still do not know difference between Galactic Command and RNG.

Edited December 11, 2016 by BoySaber

[ivanhedgehog]

The point of the comparison was to highlight the reality that no player was guaranteed gear, as you seem to keep suggesting. Players were lucky. Whether you want to recognize it or not, everybody is not going to find the right group or the right raid guild to help them achieve BiS gear. What you are suggesting is pure fantasy and not reality, which is why BioWare has taken these drastic measures.

 

As I already indicated, a system in which does not provide players with any assurances of getting gear is left up to chance. Chance is unpredictable. Unpredictable is randomness. Randomness is RNG. Whether you agree with the assurances in place now or not, it cannot be disputed that everybody has an even playing field. Players who did not have the right guilds and are not familiar with MMOs will benefit greatly from this transition.

 

In 4.0 if you couldnt find any guild that would play with you, it wasnt about luck. It was about your ability to play well with others. there are guilds that will invite you if you shout out for it on fleet. some of those guilds can be quite a bit of fun, and quite helpful. If you couldnt get anyone to play with you in 4.0, it was most likely you that was the problem.

[Aowin]

In 4.0 if you couldnt find any guild that would play with you, it wasnt about luck. It was about your ability to play well with others. there are guilds that will invite you if you shout out for it on fleet. some of those guilds can be quite a bit of fun, and quite helpful. If you couldnt get anyone to play with you in 4.0, it was most likely you that was the problem.

 

Making broad generalizations about how "easy" it was to "find any guild" and how it was about "your ability to play well with others" assumes all servers are the same with the same number of competent guilds just looking to pick up newcomers. You realize this is in no way realistic or even possible. I understand you believe, from your perspective, that finding guilds was not an issue under any circumstances. That is your opinion and not fact. Again, BioWare has the metrics and you do not. Either way, it's a non-issue as BioWare has largely rectified the issue.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

The point of the comparison was to highlight the reality that no player was guaranteed gear, as you seem to keep suggesting. Players were lucky. Whether you want to recognize it or not, everybody is not going to find the right group or the right raid guild to help them achieve BiS gear. What you are suggesting is pure fantasy and not reality, which is why BioWare has taken these drastic measures.

... i get this feeling he put me on ignore with how many times he ignores me now lol. I've told you time and time again that getting loot after clearing bosses is NOT based on luck. well. depending on what type of loot master u use. but usually one way or another the entire group can get geared within ~8 clears of needed bosses before being able to progress on. of course i'm talking about acquiring tokens, and not getting them for min/max purposes, that takes even longer lol. BUT !!! finding a guild / group has nothing to do with luck and EVERYTHING to do with SKILL!!. No one will take you into a NiM prog unless you CAN PULL YOUR WEIGHT. :D i guess that's too much for you to understand though, cause no matter how many times i explain this, you keep not understanding. :eek:

sure you can get into a SM group by luck, but that's it. in any harder content you will be out if you can't keep up. so what exactly is RNG there? Your skill? oh it depends on RNG if i can do mechanics? or it's RNG fault that i forgot my rotation today? dude...... GET REAL:D:D:D

As I already indicated, a system in which does not provide players with any assurances of getting gear is left up to chance. Chance is unpredictable. Unpredictable is randomness. Randomness is RNG. Whether you agree with the assurances in place now or not, it cannot be disputed that everybody has an even playing field. Players who did not have the right guilds and are not familiar with MMOs will benefit greatly from this transition.

maybe. they MIGHT, and everyone else WON'T. that's not equalizing the field, that's making things better for one part of the population while telling the other parts that they don't matter.:(

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Making broad generalizations about how "easy" it was to "find any guild" and how it was about "your ability to play well with others" assumes all servers are the same with the same number of competent guilds just looking to pick up newcomers. You realize this is in no way realistic or even possible. I understand you believe, from your perspective, that finding guilds was not an issue under any circumstances. That is your opinion and not fact. Again, BioWare has the metrics and you do not. Either way, it's a non-issue as BioWare has largely rectified the issue.

yeah yeah yeah, here we go again. i have 100+ characters on at least 3 different servers. and i've never had issues getting in a guild. When i started playing it took me exactly 6 levels to get invited into a guild. So really how hard can it get? If your first guild isn't right, then you look up on the forums and see who is recruiting, what do they need and etc. Our forums aren't exactly all that secret u know. And even if not, a lot of guilds actively recruit new people, so once again it ain't that hard to get a guild tag. and really, competent guild is not a requirement for raiding and you should know that by now lol. :D it makes it easier, yes, but it's not impossible to get geared without being on a raid team. i should know, i've done before lol:D:D

[KristianBurke]

yeah yeah yeah, here we go again. i have 100+ characters on at least 3 different servers. and i've never had issues getting in a guild. When i started playing it took me exactly 6 levels to get invited into a guild. So really how hard can it get? If your first guild isn't right, then you look up on the forums and see who is recruiting, what do they need and etc. Our forums aren't exactly all that secret u know. And even if not, a lot of guilds actively recruit new people, so once again it ain't that hard to get a guild tag. and really, competent guild is not a requirement for raiding and you should know that by now lol. :D it makes it easier, yes, but it's not impossible to get geared without being on a raid team. i should know, i've done before lol:D:D

 

Realizing I'm just one data point--thought I'd throw my POV in since my experiences in this game don't usually seem represented on the forums much. I agree getting in a guild seems easy. All my characters are on Harbinger, so maybe lower-population servers have more of an issue here, but I get pop-ups from people inviting me into their guild most times I log in, sometimes multiple times a day. I decline them all because I'm not interested in joining one (no interest right now in operations and I'm fine doing group finder for flashpoints), but it seems to me like getting into one at all is easy.

 

However, if I was to decide to get into a guild and see what all the fuss is about with operations I'd probably just accept the next guild invite that popped up and see how it works out. Or maybe I'd try to join one of those that advertises in general chat. It wouldn't occur to me at all to check these forums--I didn't even know guilds advertised here. I think I understand the comparison of the "RNG" of a guild because I'd pretty much be joining guilds at random until I found one that worked, or got too frustrated and stopped trying. I think those that know what to do obviously have an easier time and it might be hard to imagine what's it like to not have said knowledge. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[Aowin]

... i get this feeling he put me on ignore with how many times he ignores me now lol. I've told you time and time again that getting loot after clearing bosses is NOT based on luck. well. depending on what type of loot master u use. but usually one way or another the entire group can get geared within ~8 clears of needed bosses before being able to progress on. of course i'm talking about acquiring tokens, and not getting them for min/max purposes, that takes even longer lol. BUT !!! finding a guild / group has nothing to do with luck and EVERYTHING to do with SKILL!!. No one will take you into a NiM prog unless you CAN PULL YOUR WEIGHT. :D i guess that's too much for you to understand though, cause no matter how many times i explain this, you keep not understanding. :eek:

sure you can get into a SM group by luck, but that's it. in any harder content you will be out if you can't keep up. so what exactly is RNG there? Your skill? oh it depends on RNG if i can do mechanics? or it's RNG fault that i forgot my rotation today? dude...... GET REAL:D:D:D

 

maybe. they MIGHT, and everyone else WON'T. that's not equalizing the field, that's making things better for one part of the population while telling the other parts that they don't matter.:(

 

Reread my posts before you go on a tirade. I'm not referring to loot tables in operations at all. I'm referring to the fact that whether you happen to find a raiding guild that will take you through operations to get top tier gear is luck. Not everybody will be so fortunate. Others will be left behind and have no recourse for even having access to such content. That is why Galactic Command and RNG were implemented to counteract that ugly reality.

 

As I told the previous poster, not all servers are equal and most do not have competent guilds that are looking to take newcomers under their wings. You are making a lot of broad assumptions about the environment people are in and what opportunities you believe they have. Try to put yourself into another player's shoes instead of assuming how things are based on your own personal experience.

 

What you fail to realize is no one is guaranteed access to a raid guild for an infinite amount of reasons. This means that only a select few will have this opportunity and benefit. The rest? They get left behind and never have any opportunity for better gear or to engage in harder content. That is where the "chance" factor, which is random (making the obvious comparison to RNG), comes into play.

 

No one ever said veterans don't matter. All BioWare is doing is helping the little guy. You shouldn't have any issue with that at all. It leads to a more balanced game and a more fulfilling experience.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Aowin

[KristianBurke]

really depends on some things.

if you are a part of the main prog team it would take you 8 weeks at min (for the SM tier, the same for HM provided it gets cleared in one go. if not, than depends on how good you guys are) . But only if you actually kill enough things that drop different tokens. But it all needs to be cleared 8 times for all the group members to have that token. :D

 

Thanks for the answer! I keep reading how "fast" gearing was before but didn't really see any numbers.

 

So, people are probably going to hate me saying this but.... If it took ~8 weeks min in the old system, and if BW was looking to slow down gear progression (I understand this is pure conjecture), could it be that the current drop rates are actually WAI?

 

If they wanted to make the progression maybe half as fast, more like 16 weeks, wouldn't that mean that people would have at most one piece of new gear right now? With the next piece two weeks out?

 

I'm not defending the current indeterminate time it would take to fill out a full BiS set. But from the standpoint of right now--one week into a seemingly slower progression--is anyone really that far behind yet? I'm sure it's frustrating to open a bunch of crates and not get an upgrade, but maybe we're really only supposed to see one of those pieces drop once every couple of weeks, which is why some haven't seen any yet. So there's still a few weeks before anyone is significantly behind where they "should" be if the system was slower version of the old system. Hopefully those few weeks will see some adjustments made.

 

I'm only on my 8th crate I think so I'm surely way behind those that are grinding them out. Glad to at least be on the path now though.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Aowin, FFS, where exactly in my post did i say ANYTHING about loot tables AT ALL?!?!?!?:D:D:D:D:D

 

#2: a guild is not NECESSARY to raid, it just makes it a little easier to find people to do so with that's all. (is it just me, or am i repeating the things i just said just ONE POST ago?)

 

yes, having nothing new to do for 2 years in a row. that's how enjoyable it is and loot that's so random that it depends on RNG. what exactly is enjoyable about htis? that we have to do the same dailies as 2 years ago? same warzones? same ops? same heroics? this is nothing but catering to new players. and i wouldn't mind at all ... if there was something new that would take a while to clear / explore and so on.... as it is the only new this we have is the GC. 4.0 they talked about new content and we got what? star fortress. 5.0 they keep saying new group stuff and we get what? uprisings. these things that are not really that engaging in the least. maybe the first - second time you do them. Chapters that are the same no matter what race you are, what sex you are, what class you are. Meaning every time you do them after the first one it gets more and more boring, because there in no difference. Even a great story will turn boring if you do it enough times.

You say GC is not bad and it's not. but RNG for command crates - YES IT IS BAD. it took me 44 crates to get 1 piece of SB... for my healing spec at that, though i'm mainly a dps. sooo. 44*12 = 528, if my RNG holds i'll need an average of 528 crates out of max 300 to get 2 sets of 6piece set bonus.... PER gear tier..... which is way more than the max GC level of 300. and that's not counting left side gear. or enhancements for min/maxing both sets lol.:eek:

there has to be a way for people not to be forced to grind the same old content over and over just to get their gear. it's frankly quite insulting.