What is the Logic behind removing Iconic Class Abilities?

[Tsillah]

Sure you can. Some bosses have different openers though. Some you leap to, some you pull, some you taunt early, some you have to conserve your taunt for optimal effectiveness. you use the right tool for the job at hand. You can drive a nail with a screwdriver, but it's better if you have a hammer.

 

Sure but the point was if it was a choice or a pure necessity and in this case it's not the difference between a screwdriver and a hammer but two different hammers. As a tank you have more than one way to build aggro.

 

In the end it no longer matters anymore because a little birdy told me that assassin tanks will have another gap closer in 5.0 and if that's true it makes this part of the discussion rather moot anyway.

[Deaconik]

...

Sure you can do without. There's just no reason not to. Same way a Arsenal Merc could do without Heatseeker Missiles.

 

You certainly know this situation: You have 4 good DPS players and you guard those who are the best. And then during the pull the 3rd in the line has the awesome streak of crits and was promoted to tank Also your procs didn't work(my yummy shock with recklesness followed by arching strike... oh damn, not my spell - followed by deprecating volts ).

 

How did we get here from phase walk, I want phase walk in 5.0 on my assassin! Dea will cry, you don't want goddess to cry, do you, Eric? Have I mentioned she's goddess of death? Think about removing PW again, plaese

 

I will use modified words of Queen: I want it back and I want it now. (original is I want it all).

[Tsillah]

You certainly know this situation: You have 4 good DPS players and you guard those who are the best. And then during the pull the 3rd in the line has the awesome streak of crits and was promoted to tank Also your procs didn't work(my yummy shock with recklesness followed by arching strike... oh damn, not my spell - followed by deprecating volts ).

 

How did we get here from phase walk, I want phase walk in 5.0 on my assassin! Dea will cry, you don't want goddess to cry, do you, Eric? Have I mentioned she's goddess of death? Think about removing PW again, plaese

 

I will use modified words of Queen: I want it back and I want it now. (original is I want it all).

 

Well you are right. This whole thing about pull is just a side track. In the there are sources that cannot be discussed here that shed new light on the topic of gap closers. So as game mechanics go I am not concerned but flavour wise it is a shame when such abilities are removed in a new context.

[curulz]

Sure but the point was if it was a choice or a pure necessity and in this case it's not the difference between a screwdriver and a hammer but two different hammers. As a tank you have more than one way to build aggro.

 

In the end it no longer matters anymore because a little birdy told me that assassin tanks will have another gap closer in 5.0 and if that's true it makes this part of the discussion rather moot anyway.

 

Depends on your degree of necessity. I don't sin tank, never got the hang of them. But each tank has some skills that offset a deficiency in other areas. monkeying around with those can throw off balance and effectiveness.

 

So it's not 1 hammer vs a different hammer, perhaps screwdriver vs hammer wasn't ideal. How about a hacksaw vs a chainsaw. Both perform a similar task, but they have different pros and cons, even thought they are both saws.

 

Or hoe vs a plow. You can plow a field with a hoe, but takes much longer. So to a farmer with a large field, a plow is necessary. For a non-farmer to say it isn't necessary because they have a choice aren't looking at it from the same viewpoint. Again, I don't sin tank so I don't have a dog in this fight, so just my outside opinion.

[Torvai]

See, the premise for this exchange was that you could attack a boss from stealth as an opener so you could be in melee range. Of course with pull have a 10m minimum that would constitue a choice. Do I go melee from stealth or do I use pull. If you do not have to use pull then you have a fair choice, if you must use pull to be able to hold aggro at all, then it's not really a choice. I am not advocating changing or removing anything. I am just trying to find out if pull is an essential choice that cannot be bypassed or one that can be bypassed for other choices.

 

Why would you be in melee range as a tank to pull anyway? Optimal opener looks like this: Pull, Shock, Wither, Discharge, Thrash. For pull you need 10-30m, for the next 3 gcds 0-10m. So you have 6 seconds before you need to be in melee range. You can achieve this even by using the epic rp walk instead of normal running. Assuming the boss won't come to you anway.

And while in combat, you don't use tealth as a gap closer, at least in PvE, because it actually slows you down. So we need Force Speed and Phase Walk. The latter needs actual preparation.

 

And btw, do you could share that source of new gap closer with me?

Edited November 8, 2016 by Torvai

[Tsillah]

How about a hacksaw vs a chainsaw. Both perform a similar task, but they have different pros and cons, even thought they are both saws.

 

This comparison works better yeh. And this was my point from the start that you can make choices and both have pros and cons. The question I had though was whether using the hacksaw had debilitating cons. That question remains unanswered but as I stated this line of the discussion is no longer useful as such as it's but a detail in a larger context.

 

Again, I don't sin tank so I don't have a dog in this fight, so just my outside opinion.

 

That goes for me as well. Somehow though people have lost the ability to understand that asking critical questions is a means to understanding and not to be confused with trolling or forum pvp (not referring to you). That's why this detail somehow got a greater importance than it originally had and should have.

[Deaconik]

Why would you be in melee range as a tank to pull anyway? Optimal opener looks like this: Pull, Shock, Wither, Discharge, Thrash. For pull you need 10-30m, for the next 3 gcds 0-10m. So you have 6 seconds before you need to be in melee range. You can achieve this even by using the epic rp walk instead of normal running. Assuming the boss won't come to you anway.

And while in combat, you don't use tealth as a gap closer, at least in PvE, because it actually slows you down. So we need Force Speed and Phase Walk. The latter needs actual preparation.

 

And btw, do you could share that source of new gap closer with me?

 

Oh, I need to TRY THIS!

[Tsetso]

Oh, I need to TRY THIS!

 

RP tanking? That's a good idea. When taunting scream insults at the boss, or RP taunt

Edited November 8, 2016 by Tsetso

[curulz]

Well, I'm out of tool analogies (i know everyone is upset). I too just like discussions, especially if it's something I don't have a lot of information on.

 

As a wise man once said, when I get into a debate I either find out I'm right or I learn something new

[Tsillah]

Well, I'm out of tool analogies (i know everyone is upset). I too just like discussions, especially if it's something I don't have a lot of information on.

 

As a wise man once said, when I get into a debate I either find out I'm right or I learn something new

 

I think the biggest problem is that BWA have only shared part of the changes here and without the full context it creates more confusion and anger than it helps.

[Deaconik]

RP tanking? That's a good idea. When taunting scream insults at the boss, or RP taunt

 

I tried to ask Tyrans really nicely whether he would be so kind and dropped the loot without delaying the inevitable once. Didn't work. Now I will try the slow sexy walk while spanking Draxus with lightnings, oh damn, that's gonna be fun. Cannot wait, oh boy

[Tsetso]

I think the biggest problem is that BWA have only shared part of the changes here and without the full context it creates more confusion and anger than it helps.

 

Although i agree, the lack of communication is entirely different topic. The fact that they don't even care to post what their intentions for the classes are is making us search for mined info to at least see what they are doing.

[Celise]

No seriously, I want to know why Flamethrower is being removed from the game which has been iconic to Bounty Hunters from the start.

 

And then on top of that, you're adding a brand new exclusive ability to replace flamethrower for Powertechs and not giving Mercs one in return.

 

Another example:

 

"Phase Walk"

 

This was originally a Shadow/Sin only move and then you gave it base line to the class and now you're taking it away from Shadows and Sins? Like what the heck, really?

 

These changes are severely the wrong idea and I wanna know what logic and reasoning went into this nonsense.

 

the flamethrower huh? and?

 

it is good the shadows and assassins are getting the boot, i have seen too often how assassins and shadows get around their target using the phase walk. now they have to tank and not have any excuses any longer. it also makes certain activities like the fleet datacron more of a challenge.

[curulz]

I think the biggest problem is that BWA have only shared part of the changes here and without the full context it creates more confusion and anger than it helps.

 

Yep. I guess they are smarter than me, but I don't understand that communication policy. If it's bad news that isn't going to change, tell us. We will either leave or stay, same as we will when itt drops. But creating angst and agitate seems unnecessary.

[Tsetso]

I tried to ask Tyrans really nicely whether he would be so kind and dropped the loot without delaying the inevitable once. Didn't work. Now I will try the slow sexy walk while spanking Draxus with lightnings, oh damn, that's gonna be fun. Cannot wait, oh boy

 

Hmm, i was thinking of assuring Brontes that "these are not the droids you're looking for" in the transition phase.

[Tsillah]

Yep. I guess they are smarter than me, but I don't understand that communication policy. If it's bad news that isn't going to change, tell us. We will either leave or stay, same as we will when itt drops. But creating angst and agitate seems unnecessary.

 

I also do not quite understand it. My guess is that they wanted to phase information in so that it would create less of an explosion on the forums but I do not know if that makes it the best choice since it makes it impossible to alleviate concerns because in the full context of the class changes there maybe solutions or answers that cannot be discussed here until they become official.

[Deaconik]

the flamethrower huh? and?

 

it is good the shadows and assassins are getting the boot, i have seen too often how assassins and shadows get around their target using the phase walk. now they have to tank and not have any excuses any longer. it also makes certain activities like the fleet datacron more of a challenge.

 

As many stated assassins don't need phase walk to tank. It's a QoL change. We can tank without it. But with it it's better. The same way people can tank without the interface editor but with it it's better.

[XiamaraSimi]

uhh...phase walk is kind of an important skill for tanking. A lot of people are confused over this change...

 

...kind of legit thing to complain about. Not to mention it's been a sin/shadow skill since launch.

 

this!

[Andryah]

I also do not quite understand it. My guess is that they wanted to phase information in so that it would create less of an explosion on the forums but I do not know if that makes it the best choice since it makes it impossible to alleviate concerns because in the full context of the class changes there maybe solutions or answers that cannot be discussed here until they become official.

 

I see it as simply a teaser of info ahead of the actual live stream and Q&A. The tactic draws more interest in the live stream either directly or after the fact through fan sites.

 

A forum thread here is really not the most effective way to do a verbose and complete disclosure of all changes, not to mention, I'm sure not all changes are locked and committed to release even this close to 5.0 patch. Notice that they already delayed the planned live stream for class abilities.

 

They also have a habit of not wanting to map out and disclose every nitty gritty detail on things like this in advance. It's not like any of us can do anything with it except complain anyway ... and as I said.. they may change or pull something before patch day too.

[Torvai]

I see it as simply a teaser of info ahead of the actual live stream and Q&A. The tactic draws more interest in the live stream either directly or after the fact through fan sites.

 

A forum thread here is really not the most effective way to do a verbose and complete disclosure of all changes, not to mention, I'm sure not all changes are locked and committed to release even this close to 5.0 patch. Notice that they already delayed the planned live stream for class abilities.

 

 

They didn't delay the stream. They cancelled it and replaced it with some nonsense about "special guests"

They also have a habit of not wanting to map out and disclose every nitty gritty detail on things like this in advance. It's not like any of us can do anything with it except complain anyway ... and as I said.. they may change or pull something before patch day too.

 

I'm here since release. Not once did they change something that was on PTS before pushing it to live.

Heck, they even keep the bugs

 

Edit: Not totally true. They was this one time where they wanted to change that AoE's don't prevent caps in WZs anymore.

But regarding class changes? Nope. Not even when there were a ton of theorycrafters around that told them something would be an utter mess, even proving it with simulations and math, Bioware didn't care.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Torvai

[Tsillah]

I'm here since release. Not once did they change something that was on PTS before pushing it to live.

Heck, they even keep the bugs

 

I have to kindly disagree with you there. I also have been here since the start but I do distinctly remember some pretty hefty sorc/sage changes that were on the PTS and were shot down before they had a chance to go to the live servers.

[Torvai]

I have to kindly disagree with you there. I also have been here since the start but I do distinctly remember some pretty hefty sorc/sage changes that were on the PTS and were shot down before they had a chance to go to the live servers.

 

Umm, namely?

But well, the exception proves the rule.

 

Thanks btw for your PM. Hadn't thought of these, tbh. But for most fights you won't be able to use that. Or, to word it better, it would be more benefical to use a different utility set

[Andryah]

They didn't delay the stream. They cancelled it and replaced it with some nonsense about "special guests"

Oh Really?!....

Hey folks,

 

We are making a slight change in the schedule for weekly livestreams. Originally tomorrow's stream was going to cover combat changes. We are going to move that stream out and we are replacing it with repeatable Chapters. We are going to showcase a KOTFE Chapter and show the difference between story and veteran difficulty along with answering any gameplay questions you may have about Chapters. Also, Charles will be answering story questions about KOTFE and how they tie into KOTET!

 

Here are the stream details:

When: Thursday, November 3rd

When: 4PM Central, 2PM Pacific

Where: http://www.twitch.tv/swtor

 

We know that everyone is anxious to hear more about the Class/combat changes coming with KOTET. We will be making posts throughout the week, next week, with a highlight of some of the changes we are making.

 

Thanks!

 

-eric

 

Now... if they do not reschedule it, then you would be correct, but that is not yet the case.

 

As for them never changing or pulling something before a patch goes live, they actually do it fairly often. More often they pull something because there are what they consider game breaking issues, and release it later when they get it stabilized. But for major expac patches like this... they do indeed change things at the last minute as well..... All you have to do is compare unreleased information on the internet with live patch information and actual game play after patch so clearly see this.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Andryah

[Tsillah]

Oh Really?!....

Now... if they do not reschedule it, then you would be correct, but that is not yet the case.

 

I guess it comes down to the difference between move and move out.

[Deaconik]

Oh Really?!....

 

 

Now... if they do not reschedule it, then you would be correct, but that is not yet the case.

 

As for them never changing or pulling something before a patch goes live, they actually do it fairly often. More often they pull something because there are what they consider game breaking issues, and release it later when they get it stabilized. But for major expac patches like this... they do indeed change things at the last minute as well..... All you have to do is compare unreleased information on the internet with live patch information and actual game play after patch so clearly see this.

 

Until the stream is announced I would consider it canceled. Because that's what my experience tells. But I'm no Torvai