Possibilty for SWTOR to Go Full Pay-to-Win

[BoySaber]

Do you not have to pay anyway to have the very access to the CXP (gear) itself at the first place? There is not even reduced rate for preferred/ftp nor CXP escrow. Seems to me that only Premium players will play with each other from now on. I do not like to stay a Premium player if it locks me out from my friends ...

[Jerba]

I will also note that in 1 of the earlier live streams they said there would be nothing related to GC sold on the CM. This is showing that ti be a complete lie.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they lied. For context, I looked up te part where they talked about it:

 

https://www.twitch.tv/swtor/v/95573503?t=30m42s

Ben Irving: Actually, just one final thing, I just saw a question on that. The only way to get Command Crates is to participate in the game. We are not selling them on the Cartel Market, there's no way to get them via an alternate currency. It's only by leveling up, and earning Command Experience, and getting Command ranks.

 

Eric Musco: And even disintegrating, you can only disintegrate items that are in Command Crates, you cannot disintegrate like Cartel Market items. There is nothing about Galactic Command that has anything to do with the Cartel Market.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/swtor/v/102957954?t=23m24s

Eric Musco: Question I saw: "Will there be Command XP boosts, similar to other XP boosts in the game?"

 

Ben Irving: Yeah, absolutely. I mean we've done Experience boosts for everything in the game so far, and so via the Cartel Market we'll be selling a Command Experience Point boost as well. I think right now, we're planning to do a 20% boost.

 

As you can see, Ben was only saying that no Command Crates are being sold on the Cartel Market. Musco was the one saying that GC has nothing to do with the Cartel Market but I wouldn't take his statement too seriously; Ben is the decision-maker and he knows better about the system than Musco.

And clearly, Ben thinks that CXP boosts are not equivalent to selling Command Crates. If we can convince him that a CXP boost is equivalent to selling Command Crates, I am sure he will change his opinion and have the CXP boosts removed.

I used this argument in the livestream thread (see the below quote); feel free to post in that thread as well or PM Musco, and hopefully, we can convince the devs to remove the CXP boosts.

Let's say two players have 20 hours each week to play the game, one uses the CXP boost and one doesn't. Then the first player will get 24 packs and the other player only 20 packs. (going by the 1 pack/hour rate) In other words, buying the CXP boost gave this player four additional gear pieces. If you consider the weekly playtime to be constant (which is true for most endgame players with a RL work schedule), then a CXP boost is in every way equivalent to selling Command Crates on the Cartel Market, which you stated you do not want to do.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

If we can convince him that a CXP boost is equivalent to selling Command Crates, I am sure he will change his opinion and have the CXP boosts removed.

 

Lol did you read the thread around Ben's open letter? I'm sure you did but go have another read and apply it to what we are getting now. Funny stuff. Whoever makes the decisions it doesn't seem like much we can do will change their mind, they are right we are wrong.

 

Anyway devil's advocate time - if CXP grind is so bad and long don't we want/need these passes to speed up the grind to allow us to raid properly? You don't have to pay cash, they'll be on the GTN no doubt.

Not that I'm doing any of this of course but like I say ... devil's advocate.

[Morrolan]

This is real now? So we have a F2P/sub MMO where subs pay for the privilege of a boosted experience boost in GC because, our subs aren't enough and... that sound isn't me unsubbing, it's my head hitting my keyboard repeatedly. How the frell do you make all the wrong choices?

 

Yep I've said this before, boosters around gearing are a f2p mechanic because they need revenue streams from a game for ongoing funding. Subs are the ongoing funding for a sub game, layering in f2p pay mechanics on top of a sub is just desperate price gouging. I don't know of another sub game that has actually done this before and I regard it as unethical behaviour.

[higginsjf]

they said 20% boots might show up on the CM and Can not real call that play to win. Cause if it there it well all ways find its way to the GNT. And fact is Sub only can us them so you be spending free coins if you get the 500-525 for your sub and another 100 if you got the SK and any smart phone can us the free sk app.

[Morrolan]

they said 20% boots might show up on the CM and Can not real call that play to win. Cause if it there it well all ways find its way to the GNT. And fact is Sub only can us them so you be spending free coins if you get the 500-525 for your sub and another 100 if you got the SK and any smart phone can us the free sk app.

 

On the stream today they confirmed that cxp boosters would definitely be on the Cartel Market.

[CorellianWannabe]

I can't think of any reason not to sell command boosters. I wouldn't buy them myself but I never bought any of the other boosters. If they can bring in more money to continue to improve the game and build on its success, more power to them.

 

And where are these improvements to the game? Certainly not in group content, or pvp, or class stories.

[Krazhez]

I personally don't see this as p2w. You still have to level up your command, even if it's a smidge faster, you still have to fight the RNG for your gear. If you could buy the gear outright on the market, I'd see that as p2w.

I do however, see this on the border towards p2w. If they go over well I could see them eventually push the barriers in that direction.

[Bruticis]

I personally don't see this as p2w. You still have to level up your command, even if it's a smidge faster, you still have to fight the RNG for your gear. If you could buy the gear outright on the market, I'd see that as p2w.

I do however, see this on the border towards p2w. If they go over well I could see them eventually push the barriers in that direction.

 

It's not pay to win and no sane human sees it as such so don't even bother trying to convince the gang. I think it's an excellent idea for those of us with less and less time these days.

[kvandertulip]

I used this argument in the livestream thread (see the below quote); feel free to post in that thread as well or PM Musco, and hopefully, we can convince the devs to remove the CXP boosts.

 

If they are in now, they are past the point of removing them. The best we can hope for at this point is that the are very easy to acquire in game. I'm inclined to think that they will not be easy to aquire. They know that players are not happy with these. Ben was clearly trying to spin these in a positive light on the livestream. He would have been quick to point out that you can acquire them in game if it were true.

[kvandertulip]

It's not pay to win and no sane human sees it as such so don't even bother trying to convince the gang. I think it's an excellent idea for those of us with less and less time these days.

 

Are you really that excited about paying X cartel coins for every 2 hours of gameplay in addition to your subscription?

[ShawDou]

It's not pay to win and no sane human sees it as such so don't even bother trying to

convince the gang. I think it's an excellent idea for those of us with less and less time these days.

 

It is very clooooose to pay to win. Why should we pay more if we want to get gear faster, when we already pay full time subscription. It is like now you would get from each last boss in operation one additional token if you pay some CC. Or you would get more crystals from PvP if you pay some CC. They are sources of gear after all, just like command crates.

 

Are you really that excited about paying X cartel coins for every 2 hours of gameplay in addition to your subscription?

 

Exactly this. It is horrible idea. Excellent idea would be remove these and add 20% toggle able boost to all subscribers.

Edited November 24, 2016 by ShawDou

[Fraah]

EDIT: quoted the wrong post...

 

Reading this point, what comes to mind is those shops with their "sales" which reduce prices from an artificially inflated price to the new "cheap" price, that is actually just the normal price, but people buy it thinking they get a bargain.

 

And while this isn't P2W in the classic sense (only if you spend money can you actually win) that's a mechanic from throwaway F2P games. This is a game where we pay a subscription already, where we are at a significant disadvantage if we don't pay real world money (yes we get the monthly CC grant, but that won't keep all my max level toons in boosters and yes, I can spend the CC by proxy, but that doesn't change basic principle).

 

And to answer another point that is often made, the difference to the XP boost IMO, is that the CP system is the system which directly involved the "competitive"aspects of the game...end-game PVP and progression PVE (though admittedly, Bioware have basically solved that problem by getting rid of most progression raiders). If you want to participate in ranked PVP our Nim raiding you will be at a significant disadvantage in comparison to someone who is spending money on top of his sub.

 

The CM was supposed be, and had been, vanity stuff and so far it has been...Bioware kept their word. Even XP boosts and comp gifts and jawa junk (much easier to earn in conquest) basically fit into that. CP boosts most definitely do not.

 

And to answer a final question, yes I have unsubscribed because of this. Admittedly I was on the edge anyway die to the RNG eternal gear grind with no interesting new content (except maybe the story, my sub runs long enough to try that out) but this had pushed me over the edge. I may be back, but not while this current system is in place.

 

I can only hope enough people see it like me and that the loss in subs more than covers any profits they make from these boosts...

 

Goodbye.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Fraah

[Bruticis]

It is very clooooose to pay to win. Why should we pay more if we want to get gear faster, when we already pay full time subscription. It is like now you would get from each last boss in operation one additional token if you pay some CC. Or you would get more crystals from PvP if you pay some CC. They are sources of gear after all, just like command crates.

 

 

 

Exactly this. It is horrible idea. Excellent idea would be remove these and add 20% toggle able boost to all subscribers.

 

Don't buy it in that case. Crisis averted.

[kvandertulip]

Don't buy it in that case. Crisis averted.

 

Then people who do buy it have an advantage over you. I believe there is a term for that...

Edited November 24, 2016 by kvandertulip

[Biomild]

EDIT: quoted the wrong post...

 

Reading this point, what comes to mind is those shops with their "sales" which reduce prices from an artificially inflated price to the new "cheap" price, that is actually just the normal price, but people buy it thinking they get a bargain.

 

And while this isn't P2W in the classic sense (only if you spend money can you actually win) that's a mechanic from throwaway F2P games. This is a game where we pay a subscription already, where we are at a significant disadvantage if we don't pay real world money (yes we get the monthly CC grant, but that won't keep all my max level toons in boosters and yes, I can spend the CC by proxy, but that doesn't change basic principle).

 

And to answer another point that is often made, the difference to the XP boost IMO, is that the CP system is the system which directly involved the "competitive"aspects of the game...end-game PVP and progression PVE (though admittedly, Bioware have basically solved that problem by getting rid of most progression raiders). If you want to participate in ranked PVP our Nim raiding you will be at a significant disadvantage in comparison to someone who is spending money on top of his sub.

 

The CM was supposed be, and had been, vanity stuff and so far it has been...Bioware kept their word. Even XP boosts and comp gifts and jawa junk (much easier to earn in conquest) basically fit into that. CP boosts most definitely do not.

 

And to answer a final question, yes I have unsubscribed because of this. Admittedly I was on the edge anyway die to the RNG eternal gear grind with no interesting new content (except maybe the story, my sub runs long enough to try that out) but this had pushed me over the edge. I may be back, but not while this current system is in place.

 

I can only hope enough people see it like me and that the loss in subs more than covers any profits they make from these boosts...

 

Goodbye.

Hear, hear!

[CorellianWannabe]

It's not pay to win and no sane human sees it as such so don't even bother trying to convince the gang. I think it's an excellent idea for those of us with less and less time these days.

 

So why not just sell the gear crates and cut out the grind? If you have so little time to play then surely buying a few dozen crates is a good solution for you.

Edited November 24, 2016 by CorellianWannabe

[Bruticis]

So why not just sell the gear crates and cut out the grinding? If you have so little time to play then surely buying a few dozen crates is a good solution.

 

Works for me but sadly I don't see it happening.

[Tsetso]

So now we have a game with grind similar to that in an asian mmo and boosters sold in the cash shop to mitigate the grind to an extent. And to get access to that grind you need to subscribe. That's the most ridiculous busyness model i've seen in any mmo.

[majopucik]

So why not just sell the gear crates and cut out the grind? If you have so little time to play then surely buying a few dozen crates is a good solution for you.

 

Would be great if you were able to buy top gear from CM

 

When the Grade 7 upgrades on the ships came out (for Space missions) it was a completely P2W scenario as you could only get those from CM. Would be funny if they did that with gear too.

[Tsetso]

Would be great if you were able to buy top gear from CM

 

When the Grade 7 upgrades on the ships came out (for Space missions) it was a completely P2W scenario as you could only get those from CM. Would be funny if they did that with gear too.

 

I would support this too. It would at least eliminate the unneeded grind. I'm not sure if all of my guildmates would be willing to buy it but i'd say maybe half of them would so we'd be able to at least go straight for hm ops.

[majopucik]

I would support this too. It would at least eliminate the unneeded grind. I'm not sure if all of my guildmates would be willing to buy it but i'd say maybe half of them would so we'd be able to at least go straight for hm ops.

 

Well it does open a whole new market I mean the rich ppl would buy gear and sell on GTN and people would at least use all the grinned credits from heroics to buy it.

[PatT]

I can't think of any reason not to sell command boosters. I wouldn't buy them myself but I never bought any of the other boosters. If they can bring in more money to continue to improve the game and build on its success, more power to them.

 

oh, they've brought in more money. Still waiting to see them STOP wrecking the game tho

[Jerba]

Lol did you read the thread around Ben's open letter? I'm sure you did but go have another read and apply it to what we are getting now. Funny stuff. Whoever makes the decisions it doesn't seem like much we can do will change their mind, they are right we are wrong.

 

Anyway devil's advocate time - if CXP grind is so bad and long don't we want/need these passes to speed up the grind to allow us to raid properly? You don't have to pay cash, they'll be on the GTN no doubt.

Not that I'm doing any of this of course but like I say ... devil's advocate.

That open letter was rewritten by marketing 10 times before it was published. I don't think Ben is to blame for that one. On the livestream, it was straight out of his mouth.

 

Obviously, yes I will buy the CXP boosts, at least in the first week. I have yet to calculate how expensive they'll be, but maybe we can finance CXP boosts for everyone in the raid from the items we have stored up.

Just because I don't like them doesn't mean I won't use them. But I still hope they'll be removed in the future.

[Tachenko_Yuri]

I saw some speculation that there are going to be Command XP boosts sold on the Cartel Market in 5.0 and the possibility to sell Command Crates on the Cartel Market like the current packs. If they do this, it will be a full on pay to win system. They specifically mentioned in one of the livestreams that they could sell power on the cartel market, but don't.

 

If they do in-fact cross this line, the day this game goes pay-to-win will be the last day I ever play this game.

 

Can someone from the dev team please unequivocally state that something like this will never be in the game in order to end this speculation?

 

Hi there!

 

Everytime i see a pay-2-win discussion i always chime in with one question, which no one really replies to.

 

Maybe your case will give me a reply?

 

Here's the question.

 

Who am i winning against, exactly?