Grand Master Satele Shan On Strike?

[TX_Angel]

As far as the "they are replaceable" argument goes, you have to understand that good voice actors aren't just born and waltz into studios. If your philosophy becomes "we can just replace where needed," sooner or later, you reach a point where you've ignored most of the good workers you had and now you're struggling to fill roles because the talent you want is not available.

 

Most people are replaceable... very few people are actually special... The trick is knowing who is who...

 

So it's not just about the unique nature of voices. It's about the overall skillset. Learning to be good at voice acting is not an overnight process. It takes years to master like any other craft.

 

There are more voice actors in the world who are NOT part of this union, than who are... you don't need to spend years replacing them.

 

And that's the problem, they aren't THAT rare and this group isn't the biggest lot of them.

 

So sure, a studio could try to get a discount Jennifer Hale or Steve Blum

 

Those two might actually be worth paying a bit more for, but there are limits... How many game sales happen because their names are on the box? How many don't because they aren't?

 

The guy running the camera for the movie company doesn't get a cut, he gets a paycheck. He is too easy to replace.

 

The vast majority of voice actors are in the same boat. Not all, mind you, but most. This is why the pay is so lousy. (compared to acting in a TV show or movie, it really is pretty bad)

[TX_Angel]

I'll fret over a lack of residuals for voice actors after the programmers who are responsible for most of the actual game start benefiting from better conditions and benefits.

 

True, but in fairness, if they are unhappy, they can go start their own game company.

 

Many, many of them have over the years, most found out that being a good developer/programmer and running a company are two different things.

 

Example: People make fun of Trump because he doesn't personally build stuff. Yes, that's true, he probably has no idea how to install plumbing for a tall building. But he knows how to hire the guy who does. Yet the guy who knows how to do it, couldn't remotely get such a tower built.

 

There is a reason why the plumber doesn't have a 757 with his name on the side.

 

Those who do almost always make FAR less than those who direct them to do so, for various reasons...

 

---

 

Put another way, the difference between "rich" and "wealthy"... NBA basketball players are rich, the guy who signs their check is wealthy. Look at Mark Cuban vs his players... Do you think Mark Cuban could play NBA level basketball? Nope, but he can manage the team and the players cannot.

[DarthDymond]

Does anyone know the source of the "SAG-AFTRA represents less than 25% of voice actors in the industry" claim in Polygon's article? Because the only place I've seen it (outside of forum / message board comments) is in that article and articles specifically citing it as their source.

 

I don't know for certain - and it very well could be legit - but the game companies' reps did make the point that SAG-AFTRA voice actors work in less than 25% of video games on the market (a figure that includes video games that don't even use voice acting at all in the other 75%), so I'm kind of wondering if this is a case where that line got misinterpreted and now the warped version is being spread around.

Edited November 3, 2016 by DarthDymond

[chaharbagh]

Voice actors should have residuals.

[HoloTweed]

The guy running the camera for the movie company doesn't get a cut, he gets a paycheck. He is too easy to replace.

 

The vast majority of voice actors are in the same boat. Not all, mind you, but most. This is why the pay is so lousy. (compared to acting in a TV show or movie, it really is pretty bad)

 

Yeah, the camera guy works for the movie company. He gets a paycheck. Actors are independent contractors. They are not employees. They get a check and a residual. Every actor who shows up on screen gets that. It is part of their performance compensation.

 

Here is what you have failed to realize throughout your constant bashing of voice actors in nearly every post you have made in this thread: there is no difference for a voice actor between doing a voice for a video game and for a TV or movie animation. It is ALL the entertainment industry, and there needs to be a standardization of pay and conditions for voice workers.

 

You honestly seem to have very little understanding of that industry based on what you've posted... in fact, you're coming across as a bit of a troll. "Let them find other jobs if they don't like it." "Oh, there's plenty of more where that came from" is extremely disrespectful to industry professionals and shows that you really don't know what you're talking about.

 

Voice actors DO deserve residuals in video games the same as in the other entertainment venues they perform. You act as if they are trying to get rich, but that's not the case. They aren't asking for outrageous fees or huge sums of money... and video games CAN afford the residuals because they make MORE than movies and television shows where voice actors already receive such residuals.

 

They are NOT "easily replaceable" - there is a very distinct skill set, and because it is a performance... sorry, my friend, but the good ones ARE special. They have a rare vocal quality that lets them perform multiple characters and convey emotion through inflection and accent alone, without visual expression.

 

Maybe YOU would be fine with grabbing any ol' person off the street and have them start voicing characters, but the audience's tastes in entertainment are much more sophisticated now than ever... why should game players enjoy a reduced quality voice performance because some guy called "TX_Angel" gets angry that people are paid to do voices? It makes one wonder what hidden, underlying cause or event makes you so vehemently derisive of voice actors.

 

Does it matter if a voice actor's name isn't "so big" that they aren't on the box? No, of course not... in the same manner as those voice actors are not marquee names on the movie and television animations they perform on. (And you know, some of them are actors... they actually APPEAR, in person, in television and movies as well, and are paid accordingly. Why should video games be exempt from paying the same for their talents?)

 

This isn't even a matter, as some have suggested, that programmers need a residual before the voice actors do. Voice actors are freelancers... the money they get for performance has to pay for insurance, gas, etc. Programmers work for the game companies. They are on salary, which generally also covers insurance and such (any political discussions aside). Some of them get residuals or bonuses as part of the company they work for (who negotiate for the same based on delivery and performance milestones). But what they get is based on their positions as full-time employees. The world of freelancing is different.

 

These folks aren't striking because they want to get paid the same amount as Brad Pitt when he voices a character. Sure, name actors command a higher ticket price, and no one disputes that. They are wanting better working conditions (which, come on, they make their living from their voices. Why should they destroy that by yelling and screaming without there being some kind of safety regulations in place?) and a realistic residual... which is standard for the entertainment industry.

 

You've already admitted that Jennifer Hale and Steve Blum are recognizable voice actors. Does anyone buy a game just because they know one of those folks performs in it? YES, they do. That may not include the bulk of gamers, but there are a significant number. Does that mean it's OK for just them, maybe they are the exceptions? No, it doesn't. All it means is that those individuals might command a higher rate because of their name value. It doesn't mean they are the only ones who should get residuals or the basic work improvements that the voice actors are asking for. It's how the entertainment industry works and last I checked, video games were entertainment.

 

SWTOR would likely not have succeeded to the point it has without stellar voice acting, and that aspect seems to be something that even the game's various detractors can agree upon. There are a few clunkers in the game, and most everyone who has played for any length of time can point out the voice or two that don't seem to match up to the standard of voice acting that made the vanilla game so compelling. By your reasoning, we should be happy with that being the norm instead of the exception.

 

You seem to think that these actors are irrelevant and replaceable because there are just scads of folks "out there" who can do voices. The ones who can, at a professional level, all deserve to be properly compensated for their work... not just paid the same way video games have paid since WELL before they became one of the biggest profit centers in the entertainment industry.

Edited November 3, 2016 by HoloTweed

[Tsetso]

This isn't even a matter, as some have suggested, that programmers need a residual before the voice actors do. Voice actors are freelancers... the money they get for performance has to pay for insurance, gas, etc. Programmers work for the game companies. They are on salary, which generally also covers insurance and such (any political discussions aside). Some of them get residuals or bonuses as part of the company they work for (who negotiate for the same based on delivery and performance milestones). But what they get is based on their positions as full-time employees. The world of freelancing is different.

First - programmers aren't getting $825/4 hours. Second - a lot of programmers working in game industry are contractors and not on a salary. And yes, there are very few people that are irreplaceable. Especially in games VA surely are not in that category. And third - if you signed a contract and refuse to fulfill it, you're going to be replaced quite fast and the chance to ever find work in the game industry will be close to 0. And just one last point. This is a free market. And for sure the number of VA is a lot bigger than the number of game companies offering them work. And don't forget that USA is not the whole world.

[Rolodome]

Most people are replaceable... very few people are actually special... The trick is knowing who is who...

 

 

 

There are more voice actors in the world who are NOT part of this union, than who are... you don't need to spend years replacing them.

 

And that's the problem, they aren't THAT rare and this group isn't the biggest lot of them.

 

 

 

Those two might actually be worth paying a bit more for, but there are limits... How many game sales happen because their names are on the box? How many don't because they aren't?

 

The guy running the camera for the movie company doesn't get a cut, he gets a paycheck. He is too easy to replace.

 

The vast majority of voice actors are in the same boat. Not all, mind you, but most. This is why the pay is so lousy. (compared to acting in a TV show or movie, it really is pretty bad)

You're missing the fact that when you start asking for more work out of those non-union guys, sooner or later they become union, or they form their own union, and begin demanding more pay because you're asking so much of them on big titles for skilled labor.

 

You can then attempt to rinse and repeat like an ******e if you'd like, but you're playing with fire treating an entire industry of workers that way. Eventually even the non-union are going to get the picture and refuse to do the big jobs because they know how the cycle goes. Then you can't get anyone to do the big jobs, or you end up with some shmuck who says lines like somebody in their 40s who just discovered acting and thinks it's all about sounding impassioned.

 

And no, the pay is so lousy because the number of BIG roles and the number of studios willing to shell out top dollar for a VA is not a high number. The top 1% in these industries make their big money on the fact that companies are taking huge risks with asstons of money and VA is just one piece of the puzzle in trying to minimize the amount of risk. Bad VA could have ruined a title like SWTOR. Just consider that for a moment.

 

The reason movie crews get paid so ****** compared to, say, a lead actor with a weighty portfolio, is because the kind of work they're doing is often times technical and therefore easier to teach to other people. Any work that involves the arts is akin to magic in that sometimes you honestly aren't sure how the hell somebody pulled it off or how to reproduce it. There aren't thousands of Robin Williams clones and a school to teach how to be Robin Williams because it's impossible to teach something like that. You can only teach people techniques and hope they have the talent and the drive to find their way to a similar level of skill.

 

Mind you, that is comparing top movie crews to top actors. Most actors and VAs are not getting paid all that much, same as the crews, because the reality is that MOST of the work is "bit parts," i.e. say a few lines and you're out of here. There are some jobs in acting where you literally go in and you have one line. One. And these kind of roles are the bulk of roles in the industry because the way stories are written, most characters that appear in them don't have a lot to contribute. They are there to say one or two things to the main character and then they are gone, not unlike RL.

[ivanhedgehog]

And the workers can't say no? Are they slaves now?

 

If they don't like the work, don't do it...

 

I'm good to my employees, but if they ever show up to work and try and tell me "I'm going to doing my work differently now, sorry, you don't get a say", I'll reply "no worries, I'm not going to pay you any more then".

 

The whole thing is stupid... the only employees who have any real power are those who are not replaceable.

 

Tom Cruise gets $30 million a movie because people go see "Tom Cruise Movies". No one buys a game because Jennifer Hale voices it.

 

if you dont want to pay them what they ask, dont use voice actors. It works both ways. And yes, some programmers do get residuals. Not many, but a few do. I see idiots complaining all the time that athletes make too much. If you dont want to pay them that much...dont offer it to them. that simple. But dont complain when they get hired by someone else.

[ivanhedgehog]

Yeah, this could get really bad political, I agree.

 

So, I'll just touch on the morality comment: If I contract you to perform a service for x amount of money, and you perform said service and I pay you x, then there is nothing immoral about it. I offered, you accepted, and got paid.

 

And if you contract with me to do job A and I do it for the contracted price, I am in no way obligated to do job b for the same price. I have become the face(or voice) of that part in your customers eyes. You want job b done, we will have to negotiate the price. EA wants to lock down these actors for future VO work, that is going to cost them. EA will have to determine if it is worth it to them.

[SerraShar]

*Snip*.

 

+100000!

 

well said !

[ivanhedgehog]

It's sad that they're striking for all the wrong reasons...

 

Too bad they dont have you to explain it to them.

[HoloTweed]

First - programmers aren't getting $825/4 hours. Second - a lot of programmers working in game industry are contractors and not on a salary. And yes, there are very few people that are irreplaceable. Especially in games VA surely are not in that category. And third - if you signed a contract and refuse to fulfill it, you're going to be replaced quite fast and the chance to ever find work in the game industry will be close to 0. And just one last point. This is a free market. And for sure the number of VA is a lot bigger than the number of game companies offering them work. And don't forget that USA is not the whole world.

 

Why does this figure bother you so much? It's not a full-time job with benefits. That don't make that much an hour for 40 hours a week, every week. It's piecemeal at best. And while Voice Actors are "replaceable," it's only by OTHER qualified Voice Actors who deserve the same consideration.

 

Are you just jealous that YOU don't make $825 for 4 hours work? Is it unfair? They can make that much or more doing voice work for television or movie animations... why shouldn't they make that here, where the audience expects the same quality voice performances?

 

Also, you have apparently zero understanding of the entertainment industry ("you'll never work in this town AGAIN!"). If you WANT your games to sound sub-standard, while boy howdy! Let's make sure Voice Actors are paid even less!

Edited November 3, 2016 by HoloTweed

[HoloTweed]

And if you contract with me to do job A and I do it for the contracted price, I am in no way obligated to do job b for the same price. I have become the face(or voice) of that part in your customers eyes. You want job b done, we will have to negotiate the price. EA wants to lock down these actors for future VO work, that is going to cost them. EA will have to determine if it is worth it to them.

 

See? HE gets it.

 

No one is saying they should renege on deals they have already taken (and I don't even think that's part of the discussion here). What they ARE saying is they want a more equitable deal going forward, like they get WITH THE REST OF THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.

 

It's really sad that people with no understanding about how performers are compensated are raging because they don't get to make the same salary at their jobs (which include benefits, insurance, withholding, etc.)

[Tsetso]

They can make that much or more doing voice work for television or movie animations... why shouldn't they make that here, where the audience expects the same quality voice performances?

I guess it's time for the "You don't speak for me" post. While for you VA might be equally important in games as in animes or cartoons, a lot of people are a lot more interested in quality gameplay than cutscenes. So don't come with generic stuff like "audience expects". For me their work in games is purely supplementary in contrast to their works in cartoons. And i do care about VA's work in cartoons and animes to the extent that i refuse to watch dubbed ones.

[JennyFlynn]

My biggest, and absolutely most selfish, concern with this is the effect their strike could have on games in the long term and how it could in a way rob players of a sense of immersion. SWTOR's biggest draw for me personally is the story and not just text/subtitles but actual voiced cut scenes and dialogues. I absolutely have my favorites (though I'm not certain they're part of the strike/union) and I'd hate to see them replaced or lost altogether. With this, I do worry a company will decide to do away with most voice acting altogether and instead replace 'fight grunts' etc. with a generic recording while changing dialogues and cut scenes to text-based only. For my personal playing experience, I see that as a big loss.

 

That said, I do support voice actors and if they are currently not being compensated properly for their hard work then terms and conditions need to be re-evaluated. I can't say whether they deserve residuals or not, I don't know enough about the industry to judge that proposal but I do feel they do quite a bit of work. Especially when I look at the original game (pre-expansions) and all the hours worth of dialogue with companions for example. Sure that's diminished with KotFE (and I sincerely hope this strike is not the reason for slow/uncertain companion returns) but their work is still quite valuable in my opinion and I'd like to see the gaming companies and VA's work this out.

 

And, I don't know for certain of course as I'm not a VA but I don't think the job is as simple as walk in, read some lines, leave with a pay cheque. There's the tone of voice, the emphasis on words that matters from scene to scene. VA's have to invest in their character to a point to understand the circumstances surrounding the lines they read, to avoid throwing a line out in a very happy and upbeat manner during a grim or sad scene. It's definitely more than just read and bye!

 

Anywho, that's my 2 cents and I do hope this gets resolved for both VA's as well as the players who enjoy their work.

[HoloTweed]

I guess it's time for the "You don't speak for me" post. While for you VA might be equally important in games as in animes or cartoons, a lot of people are a lot more interested in quality gameplay than cutscenes. So don't come with generic stuff like "audience expects". For me their work in games is purely supplementary in contrast to their works in cartoons. And i do care about VA's work in cartoons and animes to the extent that i refuse to watch dubbed ones.

 

It is equally as important in anime and cartoons as it is in video games FOR ALMOST EVERYONE. So don't try to downplay the importance of quality voice overs in games just because an extreme minority (i.e. just you) doesn't care. I guess maybe we should go back to text-based games then because Tsetso thinks voice work is only supplementary at best.

[LordTurin]

It is equally as important in anime and cartoons as it is in video games FOR ALMOST EVERYONE. So don't try to downplay the importance of quality voice overs in games just because an extreme minority (i.e. just you) doesn't care. I guess maybe we should go back to text-based games then because Tsetso thinks voice work is only supplementary at best.

 

You can't say that, because it's almost certainly not true. I happen to agree with Tsetso that it's only supplementary to the game (heck, aside from this, the only other games I play are new pokemon games when they come out). Do I know the exact stats of players who think it's major vs players who dont? No, though I'm sure that will be a big part of the negotiations, but obviously more than just Tsetso think VA isn't that important.

[TX_Angel]

Yeah, the camera guy works for the movie company. He gets a paycheck. Actors are independent contractors. They are not employees. They get a check and a residual. Every actor who shows up on screen gets that. It is part of their performance compensation.

 

Not all actors get residuals... that makes most of what you wrote wrong based on that false assumption. There is a day-rate for actors that does not involve residuals.

[TX_Angel]

You're missing the fact that when you start asking for more work out of those non-union guys, sooner or later they become union, or they form their own union, and begin demanding more pay because you're asking so much of them on big titles for skilled labor.

 

You can then attempt to rinse and repeat like an ******e if you'd like, but you're playing with fire treating an entire industry of workers that way. Eventually even the non-union are going to get the picture and refuse to do the big jobs because they know how the cycle goes. Then you can't get anyone to do the big jobs

 

Hollywood is not the whole world...

 

There are groups of voice actors in other states, including Texas where I live. There is also this place called "not the United States of America", you might have heard of it, it is most of the rest of the world.

[TX_Angel]

if you dont want to pay them what they ask, dont use voice actors. It works both ways. And yes, some programmers do get residuals. Not many, but a few do. I see idiots complaining all the time that athletes make too much. If you dont want to pay them that much...dont offer it to them. that simple. But dont complain when they get hired by someone else.

 

You're missing something...

 

If I don't want to pay them what they ask, there is another option besides "not using voice actors"

 

There is hiring someone else.

 

If I want to eat bread and the local bread baker wants to charge me more, I'm pretty sure I can find someone else on Earth who can bake bread. My only two choices are not "pay what he demands or not eat bread".

[TX_Angel]

And if you contract with me to do job A and I do it for the contracted price, I am in no way obligated to do job b for the same price. I have become the face(or voice) of that part in your customers eyes. You want job b done, we will have to negotiate the price. EA wants to lock down these actors for future VO work, that is going to cost them. EA will have to determine if it is worth it to them.

 

EA did lock them down, my understanding is the main voice actors are under 10 year contracts, to avoid just that...

 

Putting SWTOR aside, many movie sequels have died on the drawing board because one or more of the principles from the first movie wanted too much. Sometimes it is a minor part, Kristie Alley got famous between Star Trek 2 and Star Trek 3, so they replaced her rather than pay her more.

[TX_Angel]

See? HE gets it.

 

No one is saying they should renege on deals they have already taken (and I don't even think that's part of the discussion here). What they ARE saying is they want a more equitable deal going forward, like they get WITH THE REST OF THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY.

 

It's really sad that people with no understanding about how performers are compensated are raging because they don't get to make the same salary at their jobs (which include benefits, insurance, withholding, etc.)

 

And what YOU don't get is that this union doesn't represent all voice actors everywhere.

 

What stops EA from saying "fair enough, your offer has been heard and rejected, have a nice day"?

 

Unions that can control all the labor just end up in extortion, demanding "max pay to the last day" and running companies out of business in the process. I've seen both sides.

[Darth_Advent]

And what YOU don't get is that this union doesn't represent all voice actors everywhere.

 

Unions that can control all the labor just end up in extortion, demanding "max pay to the last day" and running companies out of business in the process. I've seen both sides.

 

I'm a tad familiar with the Screen Actor's Guild family. David Hayter allegedly operates under a pseudonym at times just to circumvent them. Love how there are still people disingenuously virtue signaling on social media about this still being a matter of basic pay rates, medical coverage, and safety stipends even though negotiations over those 3 demands smoothed over alright, and it's all about residuals at this point.

 

Hey, if somebody seriously thinks that a game like SWTOR aggressively pandering to a particular demographic in the market is proof that a C-lister growling a total of 20 lines as a space marine in a new mediocre 3rd person shooter made with the Warhammer 40K license should make more money than the assets designers, let 'em. Just don't pretend it's about Brother Captain Stubble getting coverage if his larynx blows out anymore.

[CorellianWannabe]

Bad VA could have ruined a title like SWTOR. Just consider that for a moment.

 

So allegedly superior VA is part of what has led the game to the state it's in now?

[CorellianWannabe]

I guess maybe we should go back to text-based games then because Tsetso thinks voice work is only supplementary at best.

 

I wish they would. Losing actual branching stories because 'choices matter' is a lie, all because extra VA/cutscene work is too expensive is nauseating. I don't need to hear Farmer Bob babbling about womp rats, just give me the damn mission. It's not as if that added anything, just like seeing a short type 1 Bounty Hunter with the same voice as a hulking type 3 would make me laugh if I ever bothered to hear it.

 

In fact if I could safely delete the audio files I would do so and save the space, since I never play any game with the audio enabled. Sad that EA spent so much on pointless voicing and not enough on the actual gameplay. Getting all these big names sure wasn't enough to keep old players or entice new ones, was it?

Edited November 5, 2016 by CorellianWannabe