What if they made certain changes to crafting?

[IanArgent]

It's a moot point anyway since most probably there won't be any new ops, but the whole gear progression, along with the ops lockouts was supposed to be a time sink, giving the devs some time to finish the next raid. The main idea was that with the old gear you have you can kill only the 1-2 bosses, which you need to farm for better gear to progress to the next boss so clearing the whole raid would take a month or 2.

It never worked that way of course in SWTOR, i remember when we got TFB NiM someone stated that the dread guards are "mathematically impossible" and DnT skipped them, clearing the rest of the ops. Then 2 other guild succeeded to kill them with the old tier gear and basically cleared the ops in 1st week.

 

Perhaps its time they stamped "solution does not scale" next to the whole thing and try something new, then? Or perhaps they already have...

 

 

I'm an old school PnP GM from the eighties through about 5 years ago, and once I learned "I am smart, but the players are smarter, because there are more of them," I was a much better GM. Any scheme that depends on delaying the players by "security through obscurity" is doomed to fail. Especially in the age of the internet, where it only takes one person to have a breakthrough, and then the entire world knows.

[xordevoreaux]

I just want the time element removed. In The Elder Scrolls Online, I have to craft stuff myself, not have my companion do it, but it's nearly instant. I can make more items faster in TESO than my comps can in SWTOR.

[IanArgent]

I just want the time element removed. In The Elder Scrolls Online, I have to craft stuff myself, not have my companion do it, but it's nearly instant. I can make more items faster in TESO than my comps can in SWTOR.

 

That's never really been a problem for me; especially with them moving a large chunk of the "time requirement" into the assembly components, which you can stockpile.

[xordevoreaux]

That's never really been a problem for me; especially with them moving a large chunk of the "time requirement" into the assembly components, which you can stockpile.

 

I don't have to stand around and wait for a comp to do it. Click, wait for little graphic to play, done. Two seconds.

[Tsetso]

Perhaps its time they stamped "solution does not scale" next to the whole thing and try something new, then? Or perhaps they already have...

 

 

They sure have - they stopped producing ops.

[IanArgent]

They sure have - they stopped producing ops.

 

That's part 1. PArt 2 is (hopefully) yet to come - why are they replacing it with?

[Tsetso]

That's part 1. PArt 2 is (hopefully) yet to come - why are they replacing it with?

 

There is nothing they can replace them with. They either produce repeatable content that's challenging so it takes a lot of time for players to clear it or they produce new content every month(not talking about chapters). There is no middle way. That's the difference between horizontal and vertical progression essentially. And i don't think they have the manpower to push something new every month.

[IanArgent]

There is nothing they can replace them with. They either produce repeatable content that's challenging so it takes a lot of time for players to clear it or they produce new content every month(not talking about chapters). There is no middle way. That's the difference between horizontal and vertical progression essentially. And i don't think they have the manpower to push something new every month.

 

Despite your dismissal of the chapters, they did hit their release cadence (very nearly monthly, could have been monthly if they'd re-arranged things).

 

At any rate, I tend to agree there is no middle ground there; they've given up on vertical progression ("solution does not scale"), and are giving several clues that they are preparing to transform the game to a horizontal progression.

[Tsetso]

Despite your dismissal of the chapters, they did hit their release cadence (very nearly monthly, could have been monthly if they'd re-arranged things).

 

I'm not dismissing the chapters, i just think their replay value is close to 0(just a personal opinion- I have finished kotfe on 2 of my 40 alts). If they produce somethings once a month it better be something that can keep players playing for more than a couple of days.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Tsetso

[Andryah]

I'm not dismissing the chapters, i just think their replay value is close to 0(just a personal opinion- I have finished kotfe on 2 of my 40 alts). If they produce somethings once a month it better be something that can keep players playing for more than a couple of days.

 

Personally, I don't find the chapters in 4.0 any more, or any less, replayable then any other repeatable content ever released in this game. It's a different form of faction grind for all intents and purposes. Some people like faction grinds, some do not. Some people like events, some people do not. Some like certain types and not others.

 

In a game with many many thousands of different players, this is all normal... some like something, others do not. It is the nature of MMOs in my view. So you play what you like and skip the rest.

 

Note: personally, I do not like repetitive faction or event grinds. I will do some if they interest me, but if not.. I simply pass on them and do other things. I like that about most MMOs.. I can pick and choose what I want to do. I loathe MMOs where progression is deliberately behind forced grouping or faction or event grinding of any sort. I don't take it personally, or get upset if they offer something in the form of content that I simply do not enjoy... because I understand that other players can and do enjoy said content.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Andryah

[IanArgent]

I'm not dismissing the chapters, i just think their replay value is close to 0(just a personal opinion- I have finished kotfe on 2 of my 40 alts). If they produce somethings once a month it better be something that can keep players playing for more than a couple of days.

 

The chapters, being story, were deliberately tuned to be Very Easy.

 

Agreed that any "optional" content needs to be more repeatable than the chapters; and if TEC is, as advertized, supposed to be an onramp to group difficulty, the new content should be set to a difficulty respecting that.

[Vigilanis]

I think crafting has always been under developed in this game really. I am perhaps being unfair as I am making comparisons with Star Wars: Galaxies, and the crafting on that game.

 

Anyone who played that will know that you could start the game as just a crafter, and never touch combat once if you chose not to, apart from running like an idiot with no armour on away from a Rancor or Nightsister you bumped into on Dantooine that is lol.

 

The crafting professions on there were a total game in themselves. In depth, and absorbing, so I guess I am biased when I look at the very basic, almost token gesture we get in SWTOR. I will admit they did try and expand upon it and make more of a symbiosis for crafting with the core game content when they introduced conquests, dark project's etc, but short of increasing the cap a little there hasn't been much more to it.

 

So to go back to the OP I think making resources generic by calling them "Metal 1" for example would be "dumbing down" might I venture? When there is so much scope for them to make it more advanced having seen how well crafting worked on SWG. In closing for anyone who didn't play SWG, you could be an Architect as one of the professions on there, and when you were a master, this was the only way anyone could obtain a player house pretty much, so crafters were vital and a viable enterprise, forgive me but I would like to see SWTOR advance perhaps to see crafting more of a viable concern, rather than something as an underdeveloped token gesture....

[Khevar]

Personally, I don't find the chapters in 4.0 any more, or any less, replayable then any other repeatable content ever released in this game.

To me, the biggest difference between the way the vanilla class stories flow and the KotFE stories flow has to do with the way the world is set up and the optional things you can do between A and B.

 

The first time I visited any of the planets, there was a sense of scale of the worlds. Not knowing what would happen if I deviated from the path and explored. Optional conversations I could have with various NPCs. Some of this openness was an illusion, of course. But I feel it was a deftly-created illusion.

 

Then when we had the first expansion, and I felt like the dialog and conversation choices seemed to honor which character I had brought. It felt different bringing my Agent than my Inquisitor. It felt different bringing my Trooper than my Consular. Again, the variety was partly illusion, but a well-crafted illusion.

 

SoR wasn't that great, by comparison. Outside of the opening cinematic and the 5-minute class story nods, there wasn't much different between each play through. I did bring all 8 of my class mains through Rishii, but not very many through Yavin. And only two through Ziost.

 

KotFE was a really enjoyable experience the first time. I was interested to see what would happen and I enjoyed the locations and ancillary characters. But it was the most "corridor run" content this game has seen. No more well-crafted illusion of variety and choice. You no longer had to "look behind the curtain" to see the Wizard. The curtain was gone.

 

No optional content. No optional NPC interaction. In some cases, no options as to which companion you could bring.

 

And the dialog choices for the most part didn't actually provide any variety. Refuse to Kneel or Kneel. Events play out exactly the same. Tell Jorgan you'll help the outcasts or refuse. Events play out exactly the same. Etc.

 

Now, I'm not trying to say that the choices in vanilla were truly meaningful. But they crafted a better illusion that they seemed that way. For example, take Black Talon. I ran that flashpoint several times before someone chose NOT to kill the captain (and won the dialog roll to make it play out that way). I was surprised to see what happens to the crew at the end by making that one choice differently. In the grand scheme of things, it didn't have a long-lasting impact. But it certainly FELT more meaningful than most of the choices we had in KotFE.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Khevar

[IanArgent]

To me, the biggest difference between the way the vanilla class stories flow and the KotFE stories flow has to do with the way the world is set up and the optional things you can do between A and B.

 

The first time I visited any of the planets, there was a sense of scale of the worlds. Not knowing what would happen if I deviated from the path and explored. Optional conversations I could have with various NPCs. Some of this openness was an illusion, of course. But I feel it was a deftly-created illusion.

 

Then when we had the first expansion, and I felt like the dialog and conversation choices seemed to honor which character I had brought. It felt different bringing my Agent than my Inquisitor. It felt different bringing my Trooper than my Consular. Again, the variety was partly illusion, but a well-crafted illusion.

 

SoR wasn't that great, by comparison. Outside of the opening cinematic and the 5-minute class story nods, there wasn't much different between each play through. I did bring all 8 of my class mains through Rishii, but not very many through Yavin. And only two through Ziost.

 

KotFE was a really enjoyable experience the first time. I was interested to see what would happen and I enjoyed the locations and ancillary characters. But it was the most "corridor run" content this game has seen. No more well-crafted illusion of variety and choice. You no longer had to "look behind the curtain" to see the Wizard. The curtain was gone.

 

No optional content. No optional NPC interaction. In some cases, no options as to which companion you could bring.

 

And the dialog choices for the most part didn't actually provide any variety. Refuse to Kneel or Kneel. Events play out exactly the same. Tell Jorgan you'll help the outcasts or refuse. Events play out exactly the same. Etc.

 

Now, I'm not trying to say that the choices in vanilla were truly meaningful. But they crafted a better illusion that they seemed that way. For example, take Black Talon. I ran that flashpoint several times before someone chose NOT to kill the captain (and won the dialog roll to make it play out that way). I was surprised to see what happens to the crew at the end by making that one choice differently. In the grand scheme of things, it didn't have a long-lasting impact. But it certainly FELT more meaningful than most of the choices we had in KotFE.

 

A fair critique, and one that I don't disagree with. In "trimming back" the optional content, and moving all the optional content into "alliance alerts" and "Star Fortresses" I think they made a mistake. And while I suspect there are more consequences coming down the pike for the choices we made in KotFE, holding off on almost all of them was also a mistake.

[Khevar]

And while I suspect there are more consequences coming down the pike for the choices we made in KotFE, holding off on almost all of them was also a mistake.

If it turns out that there are interesting consequences that show up in KotET, based on decisions made in KotFE, that would probably get me to run the story on more of my alts.

 

For all my criticisms of the game as a whole, I want to make it clear did enjoy the KotFE story. I've been playing FFXIV recently, and while they do have an interesting story, I don't like it as much as SWTOR's. FFXIV has a much stronger "MMO experience", however. Something that SWTOR did really well in the 2.x days.

[LyraineAlei]

If it turns out that there are interesting consequences that show up in KotET, based on decisions made in KotFE, that would probably get me to run the story on more of my alts.

Hiding a wall of text in a spoiler tag because of "spoilers" that are arriving late, and this isn't actually on the topic of crafting and/or changes to crafting.

 

 

Would have been nice if more of those choices in KotFE had a more immediate alteration to the KotFE story. I'm starting to suspect a lot of these things are going to be like the Conrad Verner or whateverhisnameis from MAss Effect where you had to talk to him, get a merchandise license thing, help the bartender girl, and some Asari writings from the first ME game, then in the sequel you had to talk to him again, not kill him or scare the <censored> out of him into jumping in front of a vehicle thing (maybe by 'helping' him), and then in the third game, and then talk to him while on another mission, let him help you with that mission, and then after all that, he gives you a War Asset (sure, not particularly important all the time, but for some people it's nice to have).

 

But that's a lot of work for a small thing (does reveal a few things like somehow Conrad Verner is actually a smart guy, he just does stupid things, and what his wife actually thinks of him fanboying over Shepard), but Conrad Verner's not a big part of the MAss Effect story.

 

I can come up with three choices that actually seem to have any result in the KotFE cycle - blow up a reactor, send someone after someone in the field, but because someone does eventually anyway, the real choice comes in after for the punishment, making this three choices that "matter." Maybe resuming romances should count?

 

Well, I guess Alert choices "matter," but they don't seem to do much (or anything) to really change the story at all (except maybe show up in a cutscene, I got one where my DvL who hadn't run any alerts and used the token to get Nico opened a chapter with him going to the bar and seeing Nico at the bar).

 

But those still don't feel quite like our choices matter. Spare a guy? Vaylin kills him anyway, or has him killed. Kneel? Eh, Arcann seems to have a little more reason to want us locked in carbonite (Okay, I'm still PO'd he carbonite froze my non-kneelers because they helped him, and then vanished back into Wild Space for the Republic and EMpire to eventually decide they were attacked by the other side).

 

 

/me says "I don't really have anything to add that's on topic."