IsHK-55 Lost to us forever?

[HaltHammerzeit]

I missed out on seeing The Who live last time they played my home town. They should respect their customers and come back just for me.

[Rolodome]

I missed out on seeing The Who live last time they played my home town. They should respect their customers and come back just for me.

See, the thing about an argument like this, is The Who is a physical band that has to physically travel around to do touring. They can't be in two places at once, so they have set tour dates and pay for physical venues and sell tickets for those venues.

 

All of this stuff here... it's virtual. Stuff like this HK thing could probably be put somewhere else in the game, or heck, handed out to everybody, with the click of a button. Not saying it should be handed out... that would be over the top. But the point is, the kind of barrier you're talking about doesn't exist. The Who no doubt has merchandise for people like you... they're called CDs. You still get to enjoy their music and it's high quality recording too.

 

A more accurate comparison would be if The Who had an album that they released for about a month and then if you missed the album, not only is your chance to purchase it gone, but it's pulled from all shelves and bootlegged copies are magically destroyed, such that only the people around for that period can get it.

 

Making an "experience" exclusive (e.g. a live show) is a really cool thing and it's memorable. Making a virtual, vanity item exclusive in a video game can be a valuable thing in terms of marketing (I'm not saying it's always stupid), but it's just not comparable to a live music show. Heck, to even further illustrate what's wrong with the comparison... if The Who is still touring, you could technically go to another town to catch a show in that town. The only way you're out for good is if you missed the last time they will ever tour.

[jauvtus]

I fail to understand how can a one-time purchase make more money in the long run than the subs? HK-55 was destroyed, that's the end of it. Subs got rewarded for their loyalty with reaquiring him

Actually it's just the same chassis, he lost all his memory, so basically a new droid

Subs that span over months, years make more money than a one-time purchase

[cardmonkey]

All this could been avoided if the people just subbed instead of binging

[myrdinn]

All this could been avoided if the people just subbed instead of binging

 

Or, they pay attention to "this is a limited time thing" announcement.

And, sometimes, it just sucks to miss something that was time limited due to RL. If RL was perfect, it'd be heaven, and humanity isn't set up well for that existence.

[Mubrak]

It's not the same, either in personality or mechanics. 51 is a terrible tank (and not even the best DPS anymore since losing Assassinate) and both have completely different lines and dialogue.

 

Also, in describing the mission to get 51 you forgot to mention "soul-breakingly tedious".

 

Took me about 4 hours last sunday. Soul seems to be unscathed.

 

You're right of course that 51 is a bad tank (only Treek is worse) but at least he's a professional, and doesn't say "meatbag" every other sentence. Still, 51 has higher chances than 55 to ever play a role in new stories, because every subscriber can get him (if they find their way to section X with the intro quest being removed from game.)

[BobTheTeepo]

I fail to understand how can a one-time purchase make more money in the long run than the subs? HK-55 was destroyed, that's the end of it. Subs got rewarded for their loyalty with reaquiring him

Actually it's just the same chassis, he lost all his memory, so basically a new droid

Subs that span over months, years make more money than a one-time purchase

 

The limited time offers are themselves incentives for one time purchases of subscriptions, they don't give incentive to subscribe beyond that date. So it's the amount of money made on subs who subbed that specific period for that specifed time, versus the money made from Cartel Purchases for literally the rest of the game's lifecycle. Section X and Treek are still "hot" purchases in the Cartel Market, they're still sought after highly... A fun bonus chapter would be a long term seller and I would argue would OBVIOUSLY outsell things like HK-51 and Treek (after all, people play Bioware most often chiefly for story, I know this would be literally my #1 purchase in the entire Cartel Market by a long shot).

 

You also have to factor that not all subs who subbed for that period of time wouldn't have done so if not for the chapter.

 

Funny thing is, Bioware could be cheeky and bundle this and other related subscriber rewards together into a cartel bundle and charge *very* handsomely. Even a high price would have a lot of people, I suspect, paying, even if mainly for the chapter itself. We'd probably see complaints, but no more I suspect than those over the subscriber rewards program itself.

 

So in summary, more money, happier community (which means more money), players with more content, happier people. Win-win.

[HaltHammerzeit]

See, the thing about an argument like this, is The Who is a physical band that has to physically travel around to do touring. They can't be in two places at once, so they have set tour dates and pay for physical venues and sell tickets for those venues.

 

All of this stuff here... it's virtual. Stuff like this HK thing could probably be put somewhere else in the game, or heck, handed out to everybody, with the click of a button. Not saying it should be handed out... that would be over the top. But the point is, the kind of barrier you're talking about doesn't exist. The Who no doubt has merchandise for people like you... they're called CDs. You still get to enjoy their music and it's high quality recording too.

 

A more accurate comparison would be if The Who had an album that they released for about a month and then if you missed the album, not only is your chance to purchase it gone, but it's pulled from all shelves and bootlegged copies are magically destroyed, such that only the people around for that period can get it.

 

Making an "experience" exclusive (e.g. a live show) is a really cool thing and it's memorable. Making a virtual, vanity item exclusive in a video game can be a valuable thing in terms of marketing (I'm not saying it's always stupid), but it's just not comparable to a live music show. Heck, to even further illustrate what's wrong with the comparison... if The Who is still touring, you could technically go to another town to catch a show in that town. The only way you're out for good is if you missed the last time they will ever tour.

 

At the risk of taking the example too far, I live in Perth, Western Australia. They've been here once in my lifetime and the chances of them coming back are so low it's not even worth mentioning. Even if they come back to Australia it'll be at least a 5 hour flight away, making it too expensive for me to get to it. Would I ***** and moan about not being able to see them? Probably, for all for 2 seconds, then I'd get over it and get on with things. Same if I missed something in SWTOR because I wasn't subscribed at the right time.

 

I like that they've done this. So often companies run promotions like "join now and get this shiny new thing (sorry existing customers not for you)". This rewards loyal customers and I'm glad for it. It's not as if they didn't tell you it was going to happen. If you couldn't afford it, then you've made the decision to put your money elsewhere and, to be honest, you've probably got bigger problems than missing some content on a game. If you joined after, bad luck. You could still get the monthly rewards, but the bonus chapter? Not for you my friends, it's a reward for those that continuously sub for 8 months.

 

I will say that I do like the idea of future content like this being made available based on how long you've been subscribed, whether it be in total or consecutively, but not this content. This content should stay for those that subscribed for it.

[Rolodome]

At the risk of taking the example too far, I live in Perth, Western Australia. They've been here once in my lifetime and the chances of them coming back are so low it's not even worth mentioning. Even if they come back to Australia it'll be at least a 5 hour flight away, making it too expensive for me to get to it. Would I ***** and moan about not being able to see them? Probably, for all for 2 seconds, then I'd get over it and get on with things. Same if I missed something in SWTOR because I wasn't subscribed at the right time.

 

I like that they've done this. So often companies run promotions like "join now and get this shiny new thing (sorry existing customers not for you)". This rewards loyal customers and I'm glad for it. It's not as if they didn't tell you it was going to happen. If you couldn't afford it, then you've made the decision to put your money elsewhere and, to be honest, you've probably got bigger problems than missing some content on a game. If you joined after, bad luck. You could still get the monthly rewards, but the bonus chapter? Not for you my friends, it's a reward for those that continuously sub for 8 months.

 

I will say that I do like the idea of future content like this being made available based on how long you've been subscribed, whether it be in total or consecutively, but not this content. This content should stay for those that subscribed for it.

Well... it's not a big deal to me. I think the only reason I've gotten into any arguments about it is to challenge people on some of the arguments they were making in opposition to it, some of which haven't seemed all that airtight.

 

I don't think it's a terrible thing they've done making it exclusive thus far, but I do think there are strong arguments to be made that they could make more money by putting it out again for money at a later time, on the CM or some such thing. I also acknowledge there's an argument to be made that by putting it out at a later time, they potentially hurt interest in future subscriber reward programs of a similar design.

 

That said, I'm not someone who chose not to buy. I'm someone who joined in something like June? Or maybe it was mid May, I dunno. But I missed out on most of the rewards simply because I joined a few months late. As my habits so far have involved subbing if I want to play the game, I would have been subbed and gotten them. I got unlucky with the timing of when I joined.

 

And if I'm being perfectly honest, if they re-released these for a boatload of money on the side, I'm not sure I'd fork over the cash for any of it.

[BobTheTeepo]

At the risk of taking the example too far, I live in Perth, Western Australia. They've been here once in my lifetime and the chances of them coming back are so low it's not even worth mentioning. Even if they come back to Australia it'll be at least a 5 hour flight away, making it too expensive for me to get to it. Would I ***** and moan about not being able to see them? Probably, for all for 2 seconds, then I'd get over it and get on with things. Same if I missed something in SWTOR because I wasn't subscribed at the right time.

 

I like that they've done this. So often companies run promotions like "join now and get this shiny new thing (sorry existing customers not for you)". This rewards loyal customers and I'm glad for it. It's not as if they didn't tell you it was going to happen. If you couldn't afford it, then you've made the decision to put your money elsewhere and, to be honest, you've probably got bigger problems than missing some content on a game. If you joined after, bad luck. You could still get the monthly rewards, but the bonus chapter? Not for you my friends, it's a reward for those that continuously sub for 8 months.

 

I will say that I do like the idea of future content like this being made available based on how long you've been subscribed, whether it be in total or consecutively, but not this content. This content should stay for those that subscribed for it.

 

You can reward existing customers for their loyalty without it being forever exclusive, that's sort of the point. Now, I think the subscriber program could be way better than it is even if I thought it was a good idea in the first place... but let's just, for example, go with their model for the sake of discussion. Let's say the subscriber rewards program stays exactly as is, except all the benefits of it become available later on the Cartel Market (big rewards such as HK-55 and the quest could be individually sold, whereas the smaller rewards could be part of a larger bundle).

 

It could be the case that subscribers from that time period get all this content free. Remember, as a subscriber, you get certain perks which are core to that subscription package. You're getting the rewards, such as HK-55, on top of those, completely for free., and much earlier than everyone else. That's rewarding subscribers (heavily, I might add) while retaining options for those who miss out on this deal for *whatever reason*.

 

Again, you're talking as if this is an issue about money, but no one is suggesting these be given for free. Some people don't like the idea of spending 100s of dollars for a subscription only because you're interested in a certain perk. It doesn't make financial sense, it's not an issue of being too poor, it can very well be an issue of simple fiscal practicality.

 

There's just an underlying fallacy in the way of thinking that *seems* to underlie your side of the discussion: the notion that if the content isn't absolutely and unequivocally forever exclusive to you, it isn't a "reward". Again, subscribers can be rewarded AND people who for *whatever* reason missed this offer can still have a shot at getting it.

[ZanyaCross]

Still, 51 has higher chances than 55 to ever play a role in new stories, because every subscriber can get him (if they find their way to section X with the intro quest being removed from game.)

 

Which was always my argument against making Nico and HK sub rewards in the first place. Lots of story potential that will likely never get used because of that very fact (I'm frankly amazed we got as much as we did in the HK bonus chapter, but you can bet that's going to be it).

[jauvtus]

You're getting the rewards, such as HK-55, on top of those, completely for free., and much earlier than everyone else.

...

Some people don't like the idea of spending 100s of dollars for a subscription only because you're interested in a certain perk.

 

That's the point of the sub rewards program. To give us an incentive to pay 120$ over 8 month for a bonus chapter. Just think it over: do subs get these rewards for free?

Let me put this in another way: What's the difference between someone who subbed today and someone who subbed since 11 January? They have the exact same access to everything: ops, pvp, kotfe story, gsf, artifact equipment, crafting etc. The only difference between them is that the second one has HK-55 and can play the bonus chapter. The first one payed 15$, the second one payed 120$. Remember, they have the exact same access to everything minus HK-55 and the chapter (and other HK rewards we dont care about now). Are you still completely sure that the second one got the comp and chapter for free?

[jauvtus]

Which was always my argument against making Nico and HK sub rewards in the first place. Lots of story potential that will likely never get used because of that very fact (I'm frankly amazed we got as much as we did in the HK bonus chapter, but you can bet that's going to be it).

 

At least I know I'm partly to be blamed that KotFE never was even close to its full potential. Damn me

[myrdinn]

I kinda like the idea of HK-51 bonus missions...

...think about it. The whole KoTFE point is a prime moment to send out our favorite little assassin to hit high-value targets around the galaxy... having some repeatable missions wherein you send out your droid to solo a boss or elite boss-level mob somewhere would be interesting (take down the Exarch on Dantoonie).

[ZanyaCross]

At least I know I'm partly to be blamed that KotFE never was even close to its full potential. Damn me

 

I don't know where you got that from my post. The only people I directly blame for that is Bioware. It was short-sighted thinking for a sake of a few extra subs that most likely disappeared after after they collected their shinies, which Bioware likely knew would happen but did it anyway because modern corporations are run by clowns who can't see beyond the quarterly report.

[cardmonkey]

If they are still operating it works

[IanArgent]

I'm normally not a defender of allowing latecomers to obtain previous "time-limited" rewards. I have a lot of them, but I've missed a few, and That's OK.

 

And I've argued against opening up both Nico Okaar and HK-55 to people who didn't or couldn't subscribe in the past; more vehemently in the case of Nico, who is (despite his starring role in one of the launch trailers), not really a part of the main story. The "recruitment task" is amusing, and there's a small mechanical advantage to being able to summon him as a spare companion from L1, but by the end of your class story, that advantage can be made to go away by obtaining Treek and HK-51 (Both of whom have more "story content" than Nico does, in their conversations.)

 

HK-55 has a bit more of a role to play in the story than Nico, but HK-55 is just another skin around the companion mechanics, just as Nico, or the DvL companion are.

 

And then they released the bonus chapter. For the first time in a game whose primary market differentiation is "story," they made "story" a limited time prize. And a story that wasn't a single "joke quest" like Nico, not something you had to subscribe to obtain or pay CC for like HK-51's recruitment mission (requires access to Section X), but a whole (if a little small) chapter, that has callbacks and references to a long-running (minor) subplot, and was "good."

 

The bonus chapter was (and is) "too big"/"too good" to have limited to long-term subscribers. New players, who started during the summer? Too bad, so sad, you can never have the enjoyment of seeing how the Eternal Knight takes her tests with your help. Seeing the "final end" of the Shroud storyline? Go to Youtube, I guess.

 

Making the chapter a one-time deal, that was a big mistake. I won't say that about any other time-limted reward (so far), but I will say it about the bonus chapter. (And since the chapter ties in with choices made in the HK-55 alliance alert, I'd bend for that as well.)

[BobTheTeepo]

That's the point of the sub rewards program. To give us an incentive to pay 120$ over 8 month for a bonus chapter. Just think it over: do subs get these rewards for free?

 

Yes subs do get it for free. A reward is by definition something given for a reason, but not something purchased, otherwise it's something you bought not a reward.

 

Let me put this in another way: What's the difference between someone who subbed today and someone who subbed since 11 January? They have the exact same access to everything: ops, pvp, kotfe story, gsf, artifact equipment, crafting etc. The only difference between them is that the second one has HK-55 and can play the bonus chapter. The first one payed 15$, the second one payed 120$.

 

But that's disanalogous. The payment the one is made for a longer duration sub. They didn't pay $120 as opposed to $15 for the HK-55, they payed it for a longer subscription and as a reward they got HK-55 and other things. It's more accurate to compare two $120 subs, one gets hk-55 and all the other things, the other does not.

 

Remember, they have the exact same access to everything minus HK-55 and the chapter (and other HK rewards we dont care about now). Are you still completely sure that the second one got the comp and chapter for free?

 

It's free in the sense I mean free. Obviously you had to pay to receive the reward, but it's free as in it's a bonus given to you after you buy something. If you subscribe only for one month, you don't get the other months subscribed. So when you buy the larger subscription plan, you get more months subscribed, that's what you're paying for. You may be paying for that in order to qualify for said rewards program, but the rewards program is itself still free on top of what you're paying for (as last I checked, you don't have to pay for a subscription THEN pay for hk-55 and such).

[Rolodome]

It seems to me that the argument about how much the sub rewards costed is largely subjective and comes down to whether the individual subbed only for the rewards, or whether they would have subbed anyway.

 

If they would have subbed anyway, the rewards are unquestionably a bonus and were essentially free for that person. If they only subbed for the rewards, the rewards are deemed whatever the cost of the subscription was for that person.

 

Either way, the rewards had no actual price tag on them, technically speaking. But for the second group, they did in spirit. So it ends up being thought of that way regardless.

[ZanyaCross]

If they would have subbed anyway, the rewards are unquestionably a bonus and were essentially free for that person. If they only subbed for the rewards, the rewards are deemed whatever the cost of the subscription was for that person.

 

But here's the thing, even if they subbed just for HK, they still got a ton of other stuff, even if to them all that was a bonus.

 

Artifact use, appearance editor, extra character slots, color match, hide head slot, gear drops from heroics, access to KotFE itself, increased level cap, unlimited medical probes, and oh yeah, 4000 cartel coins! All that stuff has value that they still benefited from, so it's equally disingenuous, or at least highly inaccurate, to say anyone paid $120 for the HK mission.

[Rolodome]

But here's the thing, even if they subbed just for HK, they still got a ton of other stuff, even if to them all that was a bonus.

 

Artifact use, appearance editor, extra character slots, color match, hide head slot, gear drops from heroics, access to KotFE itself, increased level cap, unlimited medical probes, and oh yeah, 4000 cartel coins! All that stuff has value that they still benefited from, so it's equally disingenuous, or at least highly inaccurate, to say anyone paid $120 for the HK mission.

That's a fair point.

 

I suppose it's possible that some people had no interest in any of that and got nothing out of it but the sub rewards, but that does seem like a bit of a stretch.

[DeltaaXx]

 

It's not the same, either in personality or mechanics. 51 is a terrible tank (and not even the best DPS anymore since losing Assassinate) and both have completely different lines and dialogue.

 

Also, in describing the mission to get 51 you forgot to mention "soul-breakingly tedious".

 

Have both, see no difference, and 51 still tanks and dps' like a boss for me. But maybe that's because it takes all of 5-10 seconds for me to clear mobs.

 

As for the 51 mission "soul breakingly tedious" is opinionated. I happen to LOVE it, and have done it more times than anything in KotFE. But since 55 coming back needed a qualifying sub date then the only other option is 51. Just because someone wasn't subbed by a certain doesn't mean BW needs to make it available to everyone.

[Rolodome]

Have both, see no difference, and 51 still tanks and dps' like a boss for me. But maybe that's because it takes all of 5-10 seconds for me to clear mobs.

 

As for the 51 mission "soul breakingly tedious" is opinionated. I happen to LOVE it, and have done it more times than anything in KotFE. But since 55 coming back needed a qualifying sub date then the only other option is 51. Just because someone wasn't subbed by a certain doesn't mean BW needs to make it available to everyone.

Just to be sure I understand, are you saying you love doing the quest where you go to something like five different planets and scour around for parts?

[IanArgent]

Just to be sure I understand, are you saying you love doing the quest where you go to something like five different planets and scour around for parts?

 

The parts hunt is mind-numbingly tedious (especially on Taris and Hoth, where the terrain makes it difficult to lay down an efficient search grid), but the Theoretika is one of the top 5 missions in the game. IMO

[Rolodome]

The parts hunt is mind-numbingly tedious (especially on Taris and Hoth, where the terrain makes it difficult to lay down an efficient search grid), but the Theoretika is one of the top 5 missions in the game. IMO

Spooky/horror isn't my thing at all, but I can still admire the design of the Theoretika. It does its job well. Bit of a callback to Peragus circa KOTOR 2 in my mind, but quite a bit spookier.