The Empire and it's constant struggle.

[Aehwe]

And I never claimed you said that the Empire needs to win the war. But you stated incorrectly that the Empire wins this war right about here....

 

 

 

I'd like for the Empire to have some wins as well. It does, but most of them are hollow and the timeline will never allow them to have significant victories.

 

Like I said, a Republic collapsing=/= the Sith ruling. And the Old Republic collapsing doesn't mean the Republic ended. It would seem more that it just reformed into the Galactic Republic, and as an entity, remained the same.

 

"A Republic collapsing=/=the Sith winning this war which was your original point" I said nothing of the sorts in my first posts, which is where my "original points" come from.

Furthermore I said from what I remember from the old timeline. That old timeline is scrapped and rewritten due to the previous expansions. Pre game launch I coulda sworn it said the Sith Empire won the Galactic War. I remember taunting republic players with it even. But we both know things changed drastically due to Disney and the development of the game.

I can't seem to find where it was written again for obvious reasons since the timeline changed, so take it as you wish.

[Sage_of_Battle]

"A Republic collapsing=/=the Sith winning this war which was your original point" I said nothing of the sorts in my first posts, which is where my "original points" come from.

Furthermore I said from what I remember from the old timeline. That old timeline is scrapped and rewritten due to the previous expansions. Pre game launch I coulda sworn it said the Sith Empire won the Galactic War. I remember taunting republic players with it even. But we both know things changed drastically due to Disney and the development of the game.

I can't seem to find where it was written again for obvious reasons since the timeline changed, so take it as you wish.

 

You misunderstood me. When I meant "your original point," I meant the latter in my post, not the former.

 

Indeed, well just a correction. You may have remembered it wrong which is fine. A simple mistake.

[Aehwe]

You misunderstood me. When I meant "your original point," I meant the latter in my post, not the former.

 

Indeed, well just a correction. You may have remembered it wrong which is fine. A simple mistake.

 

Well I still have memories of looking it up because I thought it was very amusing to know that the Sith Empire would win the galactic war. But it's all speculation now since the timeline changed. The bigger issue still remains that Bioware is killing off major imperial figures while the republic escapes every time nowadays.

[Sage_of_Battle]

Well I still have memories of looking it up because I thought it was very amusing to know that the Sith Empire would win the galactic war. But it's all speculation now since the timeline changed. The bigger issue still remains that Bioware is killing off major imperial figures while the republic escapes every time nowadays.

 

Indeed, but memories aren't concrete. Who's to say you're not senile???? On the wiki page for this Empire at least, it says they vanish, with the Republic becoming the dominant figurehead of the galaxy again. The timeline didn't really change, just cut up into an alternate universe(Legends and all it's works still remain) and the Disney canon. I suppose BioWare could say **** it and write a totally unseen conclusion to the war, but who knows. With the beating the Empire's taken, I see no real way they could ever come back. But that I can agree on. Every interesting character from the Empire has died.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Sage_of_Battle

[Aehwe]

Indeed, but memories aren't concrete. Who's to say you're not senile???? On the wiki page for this Empire at least, it says they vanish, with the Republic becoming the dominant figurehead of the galaxy again. The timeline didn't really change, just cut up into an alternate universe(Legends and all it's works still remain) and the Disney canon. I suppose BioWare could say **** it and write a totally unseen conclusion to the war, but who knows. With the beating the Empire's taken, I see no real way they could ever come back. But that I can agree on. Every interesting character from the Empire has died.

 

What I meant with changed is post vanilla timeline with the expansions. I sadly don't see any good immediate outcomes for the empire either.

[Montferrand]

Regarding the Hundred Years of Darkness, that was just a schism in the Jedi Order which led to the creation of the Sith, events that happened even before the events of Kotor. No Empire was formed, just the foundation for the next coming of the Sith and the Republic never crumbled and fell to the Sith due to it. There was no ruling on their part. In fact, this seems like more of a localized conflict between the Jedi and Sith rather than the entirety of the Republic. This is both in canon and legends.

 

Yeah, I admit the Hundred Years Darkness is not the correct term for the period preceding the collapse of the Old Republic.

 

Anyway, "ruling" can also mean that the Sith were the dominant power against a crumbling Republic, and that domination could be felt as an oppression.

[OldVengeance]

The old EU's explanation for the Sith "ruling the galaxy" was the Republic dark age where it partially collapsed near the end of the New Sith Wars. It basically had nothing to do with this conflict.

[OldVengeance]

Originally it was but there's no reason as to why it can't branch out. Kotor 2 was a smorgasborg of shades of grey, and that was one of the most compelling Star Wars storylines in the franchise but without making it overly complicated or convoluted. Imo, it's one of the best stories written in the Star Wars universe and it just makes stories that much more interesting and complex to throw in shades of grey.

 

I don't have an objection to shades of grey on principle (even in Star Wars) but I absolutely hated Kotor 2's attempt at it. It seemed like it hated the very idea of good and evil in Star Wars and was trying to break or retcon the fundamental dynamic of the setting.

Edited September 7, 2016 by OldVengeance

[Sage_of_Battle]

Yeah, I admit the Hundred Years Darkness is not the correct term for the period preceding the collapse of the Old Republic.

 

Anyway, "ruling" can also mean that the Sith were the dominant power against a crumbling Republic, and that domination could be felt as an oppression.

 

Indeed. The closest the Sith ever got to that was probably during the New Sith War where the Republic was reduced in size quite a bit and the Sith controlled nearly the entire galaxy. I suppose that could be what Sidious was talking about in the films, but somehow I doubt Lucas had that in mind.

 

 

I don't have an objection to shades of grey on principle (even in Star Wars) but I absolutely hated Kotor 2's attempt at it. It seemed like it hated the very idea of good and evil in Star Wars and was trying to break or retcon the fundamental dynamic of the setting.

 

Really? I suppose you could say they did try the shades of grey approach with a heavy hand when you have certain events like on Nar Shadda where you either help or don't help the beggar and Kreia chastises you either way, but at least there were some characters that were objectively good, such as Brianna/Handmaiden or Visas. I don't know, I personally loved Kotor 2's approach to it. Especially when blame was (rightly) placed on both Jedi and Sith by the common people. After all, to them there's hardly a difference. Both are just religious groups fighting because they think they're right. It felt like a realistic take on collateral damage in war. But to each their own.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Sage_of_Battle

[SerraShar]

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying.

 

The reason the Empire needs a win isn't about looking cooler or anything like that. The reason is if one faction gets **** upon time after time, that faction becomes less interesting to play. It becomes less fun to play for the players in that faction. As the opposite faction appears much stronger, wins all the time and in return gets more players. At the rate this is going, they are killing off the Empire.

 

If you can't see that as a good reason for needing a win, I really don't know what to say. And a win every now and then doesn't have to mean enslave or win the war. It can be as trivial as killing off Satele Shan for example.

 

At this point there's not much clean up to do in the imperial ranks. All the big figureheads are dead. The Empire is on the brink of extinction.

 

 

Let me add an analogy for it to illustrate the problem.

 

Republic football team vs Empire football team.

 

Both are in a tournament. (the War)

They play several matches against eachother. (different Battles)

Each team scores goals. (Death of the emperor, Darth Malgus, Darth Marr etc.)

 

Now there's the problem. In these matches, the Republic team seems to be the only ones scoring goals. Yet the Empire team has good players too and definitely should have scored some goals aswell.

 

That means some matches could be won, but the tournament isn't over. However in the current state. The Empire loses every single match without even scoring a single goal.

 

Get it?

 

I think I'm getting what you mean..although I'm still unsure . Do you mean the Empire must win cose we getting less players on the empire side (and pvp) . Or do you mean win Story wise ?

 

You know for story sake ?

 

Urgh told you : stay away from satele lol she is the only good thing the repb side has !!!

 

Taking your exemple , usually in a match with a good team that doesn't score..it mean the match is rigged

 

and if I love a team , I really don't care how much they score . I still watch them play...cose there is more to sport (or the empire) then just winning and piling corpses .

 

There are the lore , different sith philosophy , artifacts , history , different scales of powers , battles between dark lords and so on . Not just X darth kill Y Jeeday! let's celebrate !

 

And I don't know if you know this ? but Empire side actually got the special treatement when this game was made (I was told they made Empire first then run out of time and rushed doing the republic) . Hence why all class are so popular..and the repb side isn't that much .

 

You see peoples bragging about Jedi consular or Trooper class and companions ? nah...

 

Heck half of them forget their names , unless they are romancing them .

 

Name 2 things from the empire that come often ? Where is Jaessa and can we kill Quinn !!

 

[OldVengeance]

 

Really? I suppose you could say they did try the shades of grey approach with a heavy hand when you have certain events like on Nar Shadda where you either help or don't help the beggar and Kreia chastises you either way, but at least there were some characters that were objectively good, such as Brianna/Handmaiden or Visas. I don't know, I personally loved Kotor 2's approach to it. Especially when blame was (rightly) placed on both Jedi and Sith by the common people. After all, to them there's hardly a difference. Both are just religious groups fighting because they think they're right. It felt like a realistic take on collateral damage in war. But to each their own.

 

That's exactly the part I hated. The characters (besides Kreia) and their shades of grey is actually one of the parts I really liked about Kotor 2. The idea that the Jedi and Sith are just two sides of the same thing is utterly absurd. Trying to pin the blame on the Jedi for the atrocities committed by the Sith is insane.

 

More than one character spouted that sort of nonsense, but if the game was trying to imply they were correct, then that's basically trying to retcon the history of franchise up to that point.

Edited September 8, 2016 by OldVengeance

[Sage_of_Battle]

That's exactly the part I hated. The characters (besides Kreia) and their shades of grey is actually one of the parts I really liked about Kotor 2. The idea that the Jedi and Sith are just two sides of the same thing is utterly absurd. Trying to pin the blame on the Jedi for the atrocities committed by the Sith is insane.

 

More than one character spouted that sort of nonsense, but if the game was trying to imply they were correct, then that's basically trying to retcon the history of franchise up to that point.

 

Really? An interesting complaint. I'd offer that to the common person, who really has no idea what the Jedi or Sith are about or have ever even seen a Jedi or Sith(which I'd wager would be a majority of the galaxy), really wouldn't be able to tell the difference. To them, all they see is just two sides with immense destructive capabilities at the tips of their fingers. When you look at it that way, I think it's not as absurd as you may think. IIRC, the game never tries to establish that the Jedi are also corrupted in their own way or that they're to blame for the atrocities of the Sith, just that to the common person, they can't comprehend the difference, that they're too afraid and in turn are not willing to understand, remaining angry and ignorant. And also their inaction for a good portion of the Mando wars, I think commoners were also pissed at that too.

[MayhemofChaonus]

It's just the generic trope of "bad guy is bad therefore cannot win so (insert dumb choice here that ****s up everything.)" Star Wars has always been guilty of this. And due to this being a prequel story where thousands of years from now, we know that the Republic is still standing, it's forced into this development path. Typical good guy endings. The dark side/Empire is unfortunately marred by Stupid Evil or Chaotic Stupid aligned characters. The worst part is they can't even come up with solid reasoning behind this. Neither BioWare nor George Lucas. Lucas made it so that all Sith are Stupid Evil or end up becoming Stupid Evil because like I said bad guy therefore cannot win. It's usually the issue with all good vs evil storylines and is why authors like George Martin and his A Song of Ice and Fire(you may know it as Game of Thrones via the popular show) story has gotten so popular. Turns out people like characters with more complexity than "let me kick this puppy because I feel like it."

 

You're forgetting one thing. Thousands of years is a loooooong time. Long enough for the Empire to kick the Republic's butt into the next galaxy over, rule over the galaxy with an iron fist, then be eventually defeated after 2000 years or so by a rebellion that restores the Republic. Presto, Empire can win! Most writers just don't want to lean that way.

 

The wolf, the stepmother, the witch and the ogre are black and have no redeemable quality and so is the Empire.

 

The Empire actually has a surprising amount of redeemable qualities, as did the Nazi's. The problems with both of them however, are fundamental and remain the same:

 

They are both systematically racist, prejudiced, and elitist.

 

Nonetheless they do surprisingly have redeemable qualities. The Nazi's for example, managed to completely turn Germany's economy around through the production of a war machine. In a similar fashion, the Empire took a bunch of scattered, frightened, hunted refugees and in only 5 generations turned them into a massive fighting force capable of standing up to the behemoth-like Republic which is far older, deeply rooted, and controls far more territory and resources. Many planets that were languishing under Republic control, rife with corruption and illegal activity, became strongholds for the Empire. The general quality of life (excluding the fact that if you piss off a high-ranking officer or a Sith you'll likely be executed on the spot) of the citizens of those worlds improved dramatically as industry boomed to feed the Empire's war machine.

 

While both the Empire and the Nazi's committed travesties beyond forgiveness, they did not inflict or commit ONLY evil. They did do some good. The thing is that their evil far outweighs what little good they did do.

Edited September 8, 2016 by MayhemofChaonus

[Sage_of_Battle]

You're forgetting one thing. Thousands of years is a loooooong time. Long enough for the Empire to kick the Republic's butt into the next galaxy over, rule over the galaxy with an iron fist, then be eventually defeated after 2000 years or so by a rebellion that restores the Republic. Presto, Empire can win! Most writers just don't want to lean that way.

 

But the time period has already been chronicled. After the New Sith Wars, the Sith were beaten and the Old Republic collapsed and immediately reformed into a new governmental organization but of the same entity; the Galactic Republic. And a long standing peace was established. Before the New Sith Wars were the Old Sith Wars, with all the sub conflicts you'd likely be familiar with IE Mando Wars, Jedi Civil War, Dark Wars etc which also doesn't feature the Republic falling. I mean, there's really nothing to forget. The Empire, especially this one and any other variation, simply never wins. Thousands of years is a long time, but most of it is all charted with Legends stories and chronology. And even the new canon states much the same as to the decline of the Old Republic and the formation of the Galactic Republic. As much as the scenario you listed would be interesting, as much as either of us would want it to happen, it unfortunately didn't happen.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Sage_of_Battle

[cool-dude]

Part of the reason Valkorian is successful in defeating the empire and republic, is because the zakuul people love him, and he does not need to deal with rebellion. Then you have his order of zakuul knights, that are united by the ideals of a nation instead of a specific code. If the Empire had that sort of thing going for them, they'd be set.

[OldVengeance]

Really? An interesting complaint. I'd offer that to the common person, who really has no idea what the Jedi or Sith are about or have ever even seen a Jedi or Sith(which I'd wager would be a majority of the galaxy), really wouldn't be able to tell the difference. To them, all they see is just two sides with immense destructive capabilities at the tips of their fingers. When you look at it that way, I think it's not as absurd as you may think. IIRC, the game never tries to establish that the Jedi are also corrupted in their own way or that they're to blame for the atrocities of the Sith, just that to the common person, they can't comprehend the difference, that they're too afraid and in turn are not willing to understand, remaining angry and ignorant. And also their inaction for a good portion of the Mando wars, I think commoners were also pissed at that too.

 

I'd have a hard time believing that the common folk of the Republic would not at least be aware of the general notion of the Jedi Order given that they had defended the Republic for centuries. And the Sith had been known as the ones who had invaded the Republic in, at that time, three separate and very destructive wars. The average citizen knowing enough about them to know they are similar in that they both use the Force, but not realizing that one order has always attacked them and one has always defended them seems very odd to me, and hard to wrap my head around.

 

I mean it would be almost like being unable to tell the difference between the idea of a criminal and am the idea of a police officer.

 

Kotor 2 throws a lot of ideas out there, and it's hard to remember exactly who (if anyone) the game is implying is right. Kreia makes a big deal about Jedi teachings being fundamentally flawed or corrupt. The Jedi Masters themselves even seem to say the Jedi Order's teaching is what caused Exar Kun and Ulic Quel Droma and Revan to fall to the darkside and suggest they deserve the blame for all those Sith Lords' actions. And Atton has a conversation where he makes some comment about how Jedi and Sith are all the same and that at least the Sith are honest in their evil or something.

[Sage_of_Battle]

I'd have a hard time believing that the common folk of the Republic would not at least be aware of the general notion of the Jedi Order given that they had defended the Republic for centuries. And the Sith had been known as the ones who had invaded the Republic in, at that time, three separate and very destructive wars. The average citizen knowing enough about them to know they are similar in that they both use the Force, but not realizing that one order has always attacked them and one has always defended them seems very odd to me, and hard to wrap my head around.

 

I mean it would be almost like being unable to tell the difference between the idea of a criminal and am the idea of a police officer.

 

Kotor 2 throws a lot of ideas out there, and it's hard to remember exactly who (if anyone) the game is implying is right. Kreia makes a big deal about Jedi teachings being fundamentally flawed or corrupt. The Jedi Masters themselves even seem to say the Jedi Order's teaching is what caused Exar Kun and Ulic Quel Droma and Revan to fall to the darkside and suggest they deserve the blame for all those Sith Lords' actions. And Atton has a conversation where he makes some comment about how Jedi and Sith are all the same and that at least the Sith are honest in their evil or something.

 

They'd be aware, sure. But would they believe it? I mean, look at it this way. The Sith were created from the Jedi, exiled Jedi. At the time, two of the greatest Jedi heroes, Revan and Malak, led the Republic to victory against the Mandalorians(a late arrival which already angered many in the Republic), only to disappear for a while, come back and wage war against the Republic. How exactly would that look to the common person? That every relevant Sith was once a Jedi now using what they've learned to kill and destroy instead of protecting and preserving? The average person probably wouldn't concern themselves with the intricacies of the Force, the corruption and lure of the Dark Side etc. They just see hooded figures with different colored glow sticks tossing giant rocks and conjuring lightning with their hands, influencing millions to fight for them. It's honestly more of a wonder to me how the Jedi were even integrated into the Republic. I'd feel pretty uneasy by having essentially a society of space monks with the ability to enter our minds, manipulating our thoughts, spreading into and across the galaxy.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Sage_of_Battle

[Applejacxs]

I've just started playing again after a 2 year break. While I enjoyed both the latest expansions, I saw a red thread early on in vanilla that I'm sad to see is still continuing.

 

Yes, I realise the Empire is the "bad" guys, however. Since half the players of SWTOR actually plays as the bad guys, isn't it time they actually got a win for a change? During the course of the game this happens:

 

The Emperor, the most influental and important character of the Empire is killed by the Jedi Knight in the class story. And none the imperial classes even gets a glimpse of him.

 

Darth Malgus takes over. A character that was the true figurehead of the Empire due to the cinematics and death of the Emperor. Is killed by republic/imperial players in a flashpoint.

 

Dread Masters betray the Empire and are the new bad guys. Gets killed by republic/imperial players in operations.

 

The Emperor is alive, only to betray the Empire.

 

The Emperor is found. Darth Marr, the new figurehead of the Empire and a fan favorite gets killed by the Emperor.

 

 

These are pretty powerful blows to the Empire, and let's face it. The Dark Side. Now with this light side vs dark side event. It looks like the Empire/dark side will get yet another blow.

 

Bioware, don't you think it's about time that The Empire got a win again? Satele Shan needs to die.

 

Spoilers from KOTFE and the bonus chapter.

 

 

The Shroud mentioned that now that Acina has declared her self Empress of the Sith. People in the Empire really like her. So may be times are changing for Empire. If there unified behind her maybe those wins will start coming soon

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by Applejacxs

[adormitul]

The empire won on Quesh and Makeb does that count for something?

[cool-dude]

I really don't see how the Empire is evil. If you dive into the Lore and setting, you find that the Republic has done things just as bad as the Empire. Super soldier programs, genocide, you name it, the Republic has done it too. Also, with their politics, even though the Republic is a democracy, they have alot of corruption in their government. they have politicians promoting slavery, politicians making deals with gangsters, leaving troops and covering it up.

 

The only difference really is that the Empire lets their evil hang out for everyone to see. While the Republic does all the same stuff, but covers it all up. There really is no evil. Only those who are against you, and those who are not.

[Montferrand]

I really don't see how the Empire is evil. If you dive into the Lore and setting, you find that the Republic has done things just as bad as the Empire. Super soldier programs, genocide, you name it, the Republic has done it too. Also, with their politics, even though the Republic is a democracy, they have alot of corruption in their government. they have politicians promoting slavery, politicians making deals with gangsters, leaving troops and covering it up.

 

The only difference really is that the Empire lets their evil hang out for everyone to see. While the Republic does all the same stuff, but covers it all up. There really is no evil. Only those who are against you, and those who are not.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right, you know. They could both be evil. Although I would like to point out that the fact that the Republic has to hide its corruption means that it is frowned upon and that it could get the involved poilticians in trouble if such a corruption was uncovered (and as a Republic player, you have a lot of these rotten politicians/officers who are exposed and punished for their crimes). Whereas it's business as usual in the Sith Empire. Therefore, in my opinion, even if some Republicans did despicable things, the Republic still occupy the moral high-ground compared to the Empire.

[SithKoriandr]

I really don't see how the Empire is evil. If you dive into the Lore and setting, you find that the Republic has done things just as bad as the Empire. Super soldier programs, genocide, you name it, the Republic has done it too. Also, with their politics, even though the Republic is a democracy, they have alot of corruption in their government. they have politicians promoting slavery, politicians making deals with gangsters, leaving troops and covering it up.

 

The only difference really is that the Empire lets their evil hang out for everyone to see. While the Republic does all the same stuff, but covers it all up. There really is no evil. Only those who are against you, and those who are not.

 

I fail to see how a super soldier program is an evil.

 

Forcing it on unwilling subjects for testing is evil. Volunteers? Not at all.

 

Also, there is evil. The difference is, the Empire (those with any power anyways) revel in it. The Republic leaders who do it, know it's wrong but pick one reason or another to do it. For the greater good or for the greater profit.

[Limariko]

I fail to see how a super soldier program is an evil.

 

Forcing it on unwilling subjects for testing is evil. Volunteers? Not at all.

 

What about volunteers who haven't been fully informed of the risks/repercussions? I'd say it's one thing to be told you're going to be augmented physically and think that's all it's going to be compared to your mind's going to get wiped too. Some might still be okay with that, but I don't see that being many.

[Rolodome]

I really don't see how the Empire is evil. If you dive into the Lore and setting, you find that the Republic has done things just as bad as the Empire. Super soldier programs, genocide, you name it, the Republic has done it too. Also, with their politics, even though the Republic is a democracy, they have alot of corruption in their government. they have politicians promoting slavery, politicians making deals with gangsters, leaving troops and covering it up.

 

The only difference really is that the Empire lets their evil hang out for everyone to see. While the Republic does all the same stuff, but covers it all up. There really is no evil. Only those who are against you, and those who are not.

I think the others addressed most of the points I would have made. I will just add: The Sith empire is lead by the Sith, who are, at their core, all about culling the weak and infirm, so that the strongest may rise. The republic at its core (though it has plenty of corruption) is in partnership with the Jedi, who are all about peace and healing.

 

Without the Jedi and Sith, the republic and empire would probably be little different; bureaucrats and politicians dealing with each other. Hell, they might even get along.

 

But with them in place, the attitudes are very different. The Jedi and Sith are, in fact, in direct opposition to each other in their attitudes about life, which is why they're constantly fighting each other in one way or another.

[JKDGSGDKJA]

Considering the impressions I got from TFA is that Disney wants to ignore the prequels not unlike SWTOR really, really wants to ignore KoTOR 2, or how Jurassic World wants to ignore anything that isn't the Jurassic Park 1, I don't think that SWTOR or the Sith Empire needs to be bound to a timeline that no longer exists.

 

Obiwan was old. He was probably bitter and romanticizing his past when Luke meet's him in Episode 4. Luke was a stupid farm boy, what does he know about galactic history? Hell all of the references to Bane, the "peace keepers of a thousand years", and established world building about the Light and Dark Side could be chocked up to people having an inaccurate idea about history, filled with gaps and just wrong information. There are countless people who love to reference stuff like Nazi Germany and the Revolutionary War, but have never heard nor researched notable time period before/after like the (Weimar Republic or Whiskey's Rebellion). Hell, there are people who if pressed clearly have a very unique(or warped, as some people might put it) perspective on what actually happened in climatic points in history like Nazi Germany and the Revolutionary War. The same premise mindset could easily be carried to the Prequel Era/OT era.

 

Hell, call it an alternate timeline where the New Sith Wars/Bane/Ruusan Reformation never happened if you want to.

 

The Sith Empire could win or lose at the end of this, and it doesn't necessarily have to bleed into the movie timeline either way. In fact I'd prefer it if the Republic loses, or becomes even more autocratic(#Saresh2016), and both the Sith Empire and Zakuul come out of this relatively strong and emboldened. The Sith Empire doesn't even need to win in a galactic domination sense, just survive and become emboldened and stronger from all of the internal conflict it's experienced.

Edited October 12, 2016 by JKDGSGDKJA