Does this game need new operations?

[Island_Jedi]

I have thoroughly enjoyed my time here in endgame. SWTOR has provided with me some great experiences in endgame but I feel the current state of the game is purely focused on the single player experience. Endgame group content was my favorite aspect of the game and I wish the community would support me in asking for new group content in the form of operations. Many endgame players have left and I think they made the game more complete.

 

This game has used recycled content for endgame for far too long. New operations are a part of every great MMO expansion. New operations would breathe new life into the endgame and bring scores of players back! Does anyone feel the game needs new operations.

[psandak]

While I agree with your position - I WANT NEW OPS TOO - your hyperbole does not do your cause any good.

 

This game has used recycled content for endgame for far too long.

 

So nine months is too long? Seriously, "recycled content" - as you put it - has only been in effect since October 2015. Before that we in fact had two "new" operations: Ravagers and Temple of Sacrifice. Sure, anyone could do the older raids if they wanted, but they were usually overleveled and overgeared and did them for no other reason than achievements and decorations; it was only nine months ago that all older ops were re-tuned for the new level cap. Yes Rav and ToS were ten months old when the "recycling" happened, but how quickly do you realistically expect the developers to release new operations content?

 

It is NOT a fair comparison but... even WoW - the biggest baddest MMO - has never released raids very quickly: 1 or 2 at the start of an expansion (after a year of NOTHING) and then over the course of another year 1 or 2 more, and then NOTHING until the next major expansion. And even Blizzard has "recycled" WoW raids - Naxxrammus Front and Center (in vanilla it was the pinnacle of end game content - less than 1% of the population actually saw it back then. With WotLK Naxx was the first raid of that expansion) Later they made The Blackrock Mountain raids on level again.

 

TL;DR: "recycling" old large group content is not revolutionary. Deal with it.

[RikuvonDrake]

The game "needs" more content that encourages that player team up with others to take down content, 4man, 8man and possibly even 16man content would be a great start to have in combination with the solo content that is already present in the game. I don't think you should underestimate the value of social interactions and what it means for the player base longevity. Edited August 8, 2016 by RikuvonDrake

[Monumenta]

I like new content too!

[Khevar]

So nine months is too long? Seriously, "recycled content" - as you put it - has only been in effect since October 2015. Before that we in fact had two "new" operations: Ravagers and Temple of Sacrifice.

It would be more fair to take into account the time preceding the release of Rav/ToS, namely October 2013 for DF/DP.

 

So we've only had 2 new operations in 3 years, with no known timetable on any future ones.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Khevar

[psandak]

It would be more fair to take into account the time preceding the release of Rav/ToS, namely October 2013 for DF/DP.

 

So we've only had 2 new operations in 3 years, with no known timetable on any future ones.

 

Point taken.

[Halinalle]

What people say is "old content" has been new for me. I've finally had a chance to experience EV/KP/EC plus SnV/DF/ToS only because they added all operations to level 65 and it's not "go solo it!" anymore like it was in 3.0.

So, I'd say it's success.

 

Of course some players will try to ruin my experience by ragequiting just because I did a small mistake a professional NiM raider would never do.

[GrandLordMenace]

@Psandak

 

It hasn't been 9 months since rav and ToS. It's been almost two years. Even if you count Monolith it's been like almost a year and 1/4.

 

Rav and ToS came out in December of 2014. Monolith came out in March 2015?

Edited August 8, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[sumquy]

What people say is "old content" has been new for me. I've finally had a chance to experience EV/KP/EC plus SnV/DF/ToS only because they added all operations to level 65 and it's not "go solo it!" anymore like it was in 3.0.

So, I'd say it's success.

 

Of course some players will try to ruin my experience by ragequiting just because I did a small mistake a professional NiM raider would never do.

 

nim raiders have a higher tolerance for wipes than anybody else in the game. in my experience a nim raider would never rage quit because you make a small mistake. a small mistake is almost certainly going to be ignored as not worth bringing it up, while a big mistake will most likely get an explanation as to why it is wrong. from what i have seen, the people who rage quit are very often the source of the fail themselves.

Edited August 8, 2016 by sumquy

[gabigool]

in my experience a nim raider would never rage quit because you make a small mistake. a small mistake is almost certainly going to be ignored as not worth bringing it up, while a big mistake will most likely get an explanation as to why it is wrong. from what i have seen, the people who rage quit are very often the source of the fail themselves.

 

Pretty much spot on.

[psandak]

@Psandak

 

It hasn't been 9 months since rav and ToS. It's been almost two years. Even if you count Monolith it's been like almost a year and 1/4.

 

Rav and ToS came out in December of 2014. Monolith came out in March 2015?

 

You and I are calculating "new" differently. Translate "new" to "newest"/"current". The newest operations are rav and tos. Yes they were bran' spankin' new in dec2014, but they were the current ops until nov2015. Rav and ToS were still in heavy ops rotation all through 3.x. 4.x is the first time we did not get "bran' spankin' new operations" in an expansion. If you are/were a hardcor raider and cleared HM Rav and ToS is relatively short order then yes you have gone longer without new/current operation...but you are the exception not the rule.

Edited August 8, 2016 by psandak

[Island_Jedi]

While I agree with your position - I WANT NEW OPS TOO - your hyperbole does not do your cause any good.

 

 

 

So nine months is too long? Seriously, "recycled content" - as you put it - has only been in effect since October 2015. Before that we in fact had two "new" operations: Ravagers and Temple of Sacrifice. Sure, anyone could do the older raids if they wanted, but they were usually overleveled and overgeared and did them for no other reason than achievements and decorations; it was only nine months ago that all older ops were re-tuned for the new level cap. Yes Rav and ToS were ten months old when the "recycling" happened, but how quickly do you realistically expect the developers to release new operations content?

 

It is NOT a fair comparison but... even WoW - the biggest baddest MMO - has never released raids very quickly: 1 or 2 at the start of an expansion (after a year of NOTHING) and then over the course of another year 1 or 2 more, and then NOTHING until the next major expansion. And even Blizzard has "recycled" WoW raids - Naxxrammus Front and Center (in vanilla it was the pinnacle of end game content - less than 1% of the population actually saw it back then. With WotLK Naxx was the first raid of that expansion) Later they made The Blackrock Mountain raids on level again.

 

TL;DR: "recycling" old large group content is not revolutionary. Deal with it.

 

Are you forgetting the time span since TOS and RAV went live? There have been no new OPS for far longer than nine months. Also part of my question is should the devs prioritize operations more to encourage players to stay subbed for longer once the story content is devoured.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Island_Jedi

[AndoEyrune]

What people say is "old content" has been new for me. I've finally had a chance to experience EV/KP/EC plus SnV/DF/ToS only because they added all operations to level 65 and it's not "go solo it!" anymore like it was in 3.0.

So, I'd say it's success.

 

Of course some players will try to ruin my experience by ragequiting just because I did a small mistake a professional NiM raider would never do.

 

When were the lvl 55 ops ever soloed in 3.0? Afaik, plenty of people ran them in 3.0 for comms and stuff.

[Khevar]

When were the lvl 55 ops ever soloed in 3.0? Afaik, plenty of people ran them in 3.0 for comms and stuff.

It's highly unlikely that Hallinale encountered a bunch of people telling him to "go solo it". I suspect he's engaging in some creative "hyperbo-lying".

 

To step into an operation "solo", one would need to form a party with another player, convert it to an ops group and then step into the operation alone. People have done this, but it's hardly common.

 

As for the level 55 ops, was it even possible to solo them?

[psandak]

Also part of my question is should the devs prioritize operations more to encourage players to stay subbed for longer once the story content is devoured.

 

The flaw in that choice is that long history across many MMOs has shown that no matter how many resources they dedicate to large group content they will NEVER be released fast enough...that is unless they ignore EVERYTHING else. But considering that only a fraction of the population actively and consistently engages in large group content, that would be a worse decision.

Edited August 9, 2016 by psandak

[Halinalle]

It's highly unlikely that Hallinale encountered a bunch of people telling him to "go solo it". I suspect he's engaging in some creative "hyperbo-lying".

 

They did say that on fleet especially when I asked if there's any groups forming for EV/KP/EC.

 

As you know some of the bosses in those could easily be soloed even on NiM with specific classes. You didn't even need amazing gear to do it in SM: 192 was enough for Gunnery to defeat all soloable bosses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArSvpU2CEhI

Edited August 9, 2016 by Halinalle

[Island_Jedi]

I would rather have a proper KOTOR 3 Than a game that limps along trying to be a single player game in an MMO package. Just give me my $60 game so I can play a full story in KOTOR 3 and then let me come here and raid in my MMO plz.

 

A full year of this game will cost $180 for about 15-20 hours of story. Can I just have my KOTOR 3 for $60 plz. Then if its not too much trouble maybe give me back my SWTOR MMO?

Edited August 9, 2016 by Island_Jedi

[Satyriais]

Well Square Enix manages to release new raids, dungeons, story quests, side quests and more for Final Fantasy every 3-4 months.

[PerryWJohnson]

In short, I am inclined to agree with the OP in that we need new raids.

While the KOTFE story arc was a nice distraction, it has one huge problem: comparing the KOTFE story experience to the initial levelling experience results in players frequently feeling cheated. Being forced (pardon the pun) to play the story arcs on one’s own is detrimental to a story that is essentially set in open (online) areas. The original levelling experience allowed for group interactions, wherein several players could join or even witness conversations. The ideas informing the KOTFE stories were sound, but the application of said ideas seemed to lack polish – especially the sudden UI change, particularly with respect to conversations upon reaching Odessen. Likewise, the KOTFE expansion led to an anti-social experience – which is anathema to an MMO experience.

One of the other key issues had at present is that raids are no longer ‘fresh‘. Like many subscribers, I’ve been playing and raiding since Vanilla (a minority crowd these days, I suspect) and enjoyed each newly released bit of raiding content at the time of release. Most of it was fun and the nightmare modes (NiM) were suitably challenging. However, it is probably fair to say they are irrelevant now due to the introduction of the priority system.

Beyond that, there is a serious balancing issue (in PVE and PVP): focusing on the social aspects of the game (i.e. PVE), certain classes have had their playability affected to such an extent as to make them impractical during raids. Of course, this is not a new problem for MMOs.

If Bioware wants to ensure that a positive experience is had by its players, a good bit of criticism to take on board would be the imbalance between classes during raids, as raid leaders are at this point in time now calling for players to change classes so as to accommodate Hard Mode (HM) or NiM for boss clearances. That should a gameplay requirement. It’s become clear that nearly every group runs Jugg/Syn tank paring (powertechs are rare), mercs, snipers, and a mara (for DPS) with either double sorcs or a sorc/merc healer teams to accomplish their raids.

If other classes were capable of participating, it could improve the player/mechanics diversity of the game. Operatives, as just one such example, have not been involved in a raid harder than Storymode raids since the introduction of the 3.0 patch. Showing Operatives and Scoundrels (among other classes) some love would go a long way towards fixing the present – and readily acknowledged – gameplay imbalance in SWTOR at present.

 

There are significant hits, and great ideas that just missed the mark (as is to be expected for a game as advanced in its years as SWTOR).

It may be a good idea to re-invent, or re-invigorate old content ideas such as GSF (a re-work of the control scheme for a start, and integrate it more seamlessly into the game) – I would ideally love to see an operation or flashpoint that contains a segment of flight – or to even have flashpoints more like end-game training content to bring them more into focus.

 

To clarify: the criticisms expressed herein are in no way indicative of a mindset contemplating game retirement. Rather, the above text serves to portray the humble opinions and observations of a seasoned, and loyal member of the SWTOR subscriber community.

[Zwirni]

As someone who cleared all raids on time and everything again post 4.0 and post 4.3, I do not see a necessity for new operations.

The game developers have stated clearly that they are not interested in raiding and are focussing on solo player content.

 

So if you want to raid new stuff go to something else than SW:ToR - WoW for example, like every successful raider did.

[LordTurin]

They did say that on fleet especially when I asked if there's any groups forming for EV/KP/EC.

 

As you know some of the bosses in those could easily be soloed even on NiM with specific classes. You didn't even need amazing gear to do it in SM: 192 was enough for Gunnery to defeat all soloable bosses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArSvpU2CEhI

 

I see where the confusion is... EV/KP/EC were all soloable back in 3.0, but they were level 50, not level 55. So don't refer to those 3 ops as "level 55 ops" as people will think you are referring to DP/DF/TFB/SNV, which were level 55, and not soloable at any time (EV/KP/EC were soloable because of how attacks work, if you are more than 6 levels above an enemy, the chance they would hit you was absurdly low, so any class with self-heals could beat those operations as they would take damage super rarely).

[WheresMyWhisky]

The game developers have stated clearly that they are not interested in raiding and are focussing on solo player content.

.

 

Don't recall them ever saying this? They did say this expansion would focus on story and there would be no new operations in this expansion. They did say last year at the same time once this had dropped they would be developing new operations, so unless they have been lying again there will be new operations .

 

They also said there would be no new nim ops which I think is a mistake as SM is lol easy and most HM is no where near hard enough and if they make the HM as hard as Rav and TOS were at release they just alienate huge part of the player base.

 

Anyway back to the topic do we need new operations yes we do, the drop in general server population since this expansion hit has been huge, the raiders and pvpers are the ones that tend to log regularly, subscribe and a lot also do the story stuff as well.

 

Things like the eternal championship are fun for a week or two but once you have the titles you just don't go back, the story isn't repeatable once I have done it on one character I have no inclination to do it on others, 6the DvL event lol I have 20 65's why on earth would I want to level any for such a lazy arsed f u event.

 

Anyway think if its another story driven expansion with FP like group content then the rest of the raiders who are hanging on for dear life through their current boredom will quit as well and there quite a lot more than people seem to think there are.

 

Anyway I don't get why we should accept them focusing solely on one part of then game at a time, MMO's should be catering to raiders, pvpers and the questers. As previously mentioned in the thread square enix release new stuff for all of the community every 4 months or so therefore why can't Bioware? Then we can stop the ******** about whether there should be new ops next, more story etc. Simply there should be at 2 new ops minimum per year, 2 new pvp maps per year and new story on a regular release cadence just like square enix manage

Edited August 12, 2016 by WheresMyWhisky

[ChainLighning]

No question about it. The game clearly needs new end game group content in the form of an operation.

 

Why does it only have to be "solo" content, PVP content, or end game group content? Why can't BioWare do what they are supposed to do and provide customers with the MMO product they marketed? Why does the community continue to turn on itself with this topic?

 

End game raiding has been neglected, severely neglected, that is not good for the game no matter what you are here to play for. Just like it wasn't good to ignore PVP for such a long stretch as they did. For this game, story, PVP, and end game raiding are all foundational aspects, and only supporting one while neglecting the others has consistently shown to hurt the game and the community. There is only one thing preventing from providing each of these aspects the reasonable amount of attention they need, and that is greed.

 

BioWare owes its customer base more. We're simply at each others throats too much to stop and tell them that.

[Khevar]

We're simply at each others throats too much to stop and tell them that.

I suspect that this would occur less often if there were more Star Wars games available.

 

People can get their "Star Wars fix" by playing:

 

1. Really really really really really old games.

2. Battlefront

3. Lego

4. SWTOR

 

There are people that seem to be happy with the "solo focus" in 4.0, and the lack of attention paid to other "MMO-type" activities. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if those same people ended up even happier had they able to play a variety of actual single player Star Wars RPGs.

[Bannidles]

I started in 2015 so all old content is new for me. I want a new OP but mainly because I think it will revitalize the raiding community which is basically on life support.