Merc/Mando where are we in the food chain?

[Soljin]

Just trying to get a feel for where the community feels Merc/Mando sits in the firing order. Are we middle of the pack? Bottom? certainly not top..but feel free to suggest it.

 

Explain why you feel we are in whatever place you think we are please...

 

Also feel free to chat about how you counter specific classes etc as a secondary topic if it helps prove your point on standing.

 

These forums are pretty slow moving but it would be nice to have an ongoing discussion on Merc/Mando current performance and tactics.

[Greezt]

This is a complicated question.

 

Assuming PvE, definitely the top. Merc heals are great and arsenal has awesome burst and sustained. IO couls probably use some help, but arsenal definitely needs a nerf (or other classes need a buff).

 

Assuming PvP, for regs pretty good too. Certainly good at 1v1, and if you know how to kite or have a supporting team you can really pump your damage. That's dps though, heals are much harder to pull off.

 

I can't really comment on ranked, because I haven't done a lot of it and none on a merc.

[Soljin]

This is a complicated question.

 

Assuming PvE, definitely the top. Merc heals are great and arsenal has awesome burst and sustained. IO couls probably use some help, but arsenal definitely needs a nerf (or other classes need a buff).

 

Assuming PvP, for regs pretty good too. Certainly good at 1v1, and if you know how to kite or have a supporting team you can really pump your damage. That's dps though, heals are much harder to pull off.

 

I can't really comment on ranked, because I haven't done a lot of it and none on a merc.

 

I mostly PvP, I'm curious about your 1v1 comment...how do you counter Mara/Sent, Jugg/Guard, Op/Scoundrel and Assassin/Shadow?

 

I have a great degree of difficulty with Mara/Jugg/Operative and Assassin...but I have just come back to Merc after a couple years of playing other AC's.

[Jherad]

For PVE you can get a pretty good idea of DPS capabilities both on dummies and ops bosses from Parsely.io.

 

http://parsely.io/parser/operations

 

For PvP:

 

Merc heals suck pretty hard in PvP. But so do most players - so if you're great, you'll do fine where the competition is poor (ie. regs, some yolos etc).

 

DPS works great in regs (solo or grouped), and pretty well in group ranked with the right team support, and against the right classes. Largely awful in yolos unless you're playing against a poor team or a bad class matchup.

 

Many of the good PVPers have long since left, so Merc arguably has an easier time than it did - assuming you can find a decent team to run with yourself.

[LordTurin]

I mostly PvP, I'm curious about your 1v1 comment...how do you counter Mara/Sent, Jugg/Guard, Op/Scoundrel and Assassin/Shadow?

 

I have a great degree of difficulty with Mara/Jugg/Operative and Assassin...but I have just come back to Merc after a couple years of playing other AC's.

 

You need to have the correct utilities selected. Specifically, in skillful you want Adhesive Supplements (to make kiting easier), in mastery supercharged defense, and in Heroic Stabilized Armor (to survive through those stuns). And then its basically kite, attack, kite kite kite, knockback, kite, stun, kite kite kite. Tough, but definitely doable.,

[Soljin]

You need to have the correct utilities selected. Specifically, in skillful you want Adhesive Supplements (to make kiting easier), in mastery supercharged defense, and in Heroic Stabilized Armor (to survive through those stuns). And then its basically kite, attack, kite kite kite, knockback, kite, stun, kite kite kite. Tough, but definitely doable.,

 

Thanks for the utility info, I did have those utilities already.

 

I think my problem is more to do with finding a comfortable button to assign my strafe keys. Merc relies on strafing much, much more than my other characters so I need to find a good key assignment that allows for quick reaction.

 

I'm a mouse turner so I activate my abilities with keys and have so many binds, finding a decent key placement for strafe is giving me fits.

 

Regardless I will keep working my kiting skills as this is clearly where my problems are.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Soljin

[Greezt]

Every class needs to be able to strafe in order to deal damage effectivy.

 

I personally have an old Microsoft 5-button mouse. I set my strafes to the side buttons, so all my movement is done with my mouse. This leaves my left hand free for attacks.

[Soljin]

Every class needs to be able to strafe in order to deal damage effectivy.

 

Like I said Mercenary relies on strafing much more heavily than my Juggernaut, I agree that strafing is effective for all AC's.

 

I'm going to change keys around a few times to see what feels most intuitive. I think your right about having the strafing keys on the mouse for sure....

[sumquy]

for pve they are a top choice with excellent ranged damage and good utility. for pvp, they are feared for their high damage potential, but also targeted early due to their lack of good escapes. definitely a challenging class to play well. melee have a good chance of shutting you down, but if they don't they will regret it for the whole match. Edited August 5, 2016 by sumquy

[Soljin]

I'm really wishing Rocket Out had innate leap defense...I really want that Utility but the 3rd tier has more than two "Must haves" which makes it tough to take.. Edited August 6, 2016 by Soljin

[CaptQuazar]

I'm really wishing Rocket Out had innate leap defense...I really want that Utility but the 3rd tier has more than two "Must haves" which makes it tough to take..

 

Maybe we'll get an extra utility point in the expansion to set things right.

[LadyDarkkitten]

I'm really wishing Rocket Out had innate leap defense...I really want that Utility but the 3rd tier has more than two "Must haves" which makes it tough to take..

 

Tbh smoke screen is a crutch for misusing disengage and its harming your abilty to learn if you take it. You should be using it as a gap opener after they charge you. An apt will pop his Hydralics when he charges and a jug will have unstopable utilty if either of them are any good so the instinctive reaction of most new to the class to pop concussive charge is a mistake that wastes the cd. Waiting off their immunity will mean you eat CC and most of their burst and end up in trouble. So thats when using your disengage is most helpful. If they are mad dashing or using the remainder of HO to get back on top of you, well by the time they reach you the immunites are wearing off and you can safely punt them away from you and keep kiting.

 

The disengage abilty was given I think because of how desperately vulnerable mandos became after most of the melees gained so many cc immunties on their gap closers/openers. Thats where it should be used and what it should be countering.

[Soljin]

Tbh smoke screen is a crutch for misusing disengage and its harming your abilty to learn if you take it. You should be using it as a gap opener after they charge you. An apt will pop his Hydralics when he charges and a jug will have unstopable utilty if either of them are any good so the instinctive reaction of most new to the class to pop concussive charge is a mistake that wastes the cd. Waiting off their immunity will mean you eat CC and most of their burst and end up in trouble. So thats when using your disengage is most helpful. If they are mad dashing or using the remainder of HO to get back on top of you, well by the time they reach you the immunites are wearing off and you can safely punt them away from you and keep kiting.

 

The disengage abilty was given I think because of how desperately vulnerable mandos became after most of the melees gained so many cc immunties on their gap closers/openers. Thats where it should be used and what it should be countering.

 

For sure great information if you are in the start of an engagement with one person. Rocket out having a leap/pull immunity mid engagement or in a group skirmish is extremely useful and not a crutch.

 

To clarify I am not new to Mercenary .. (I'm not trying to disregard any advice its all awesome!)...I played Mando in Beta and my first character to max level was Mercenary I was one of the first 5 Mercenary's to 50 on Rakata Mind Prison...Doesn't mean anything but I was proud of it regardless.

 

Regarding Rocket Out...This ability was heavily discussed after the first Mercenary Nerf. I was one of many that were discussing the concept of the ability before it had a name on the forums roughly July of 2012...It didn't show up for a very long time but Rocket Out is basically what was discussed back then...we referred to the ability simply as Disengage during forum discussions.

 

Just some background....

 

All that said I disagree that smoke screen is a crutch, although I agree it is a crutch in the scenario above.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Soljin

[Jherad]

People were asking for a 'disengage' specifically because Hunters in WoW had that exact ability. A backwards leap. And for them it was awesome.

 

But we didn't get disengage - not even close. The WoW version was off the GCD and could be used while in mid-air, making it much, much more useful both for travelling and combat-disengagement.

 

Reliance on the 3rd tier utility is seen as a crutch largely because you have to give up far too much to get a niche improvement to a lackluster ability that can/should largely be replicated with intelligent use. Most top tier mercs don't consider it a worthwhile tradeoff.

[Greezt]

I'm really wishing Rocket Out had innate leap defense...I really want that Utility but the 3rd tier has more than two "Must haves" which makes it tough to take..

 

Hmm. I sometimes wish my shadow had more than two "must haves". Admittedly, it's a problem - that's a really good utility, but it won't help you if you're dead. I'd say you could take it if you feel like it. It's certainly decent, even if not the best.

 

It probably will help much less than the other options, but it will make rocket out slightly more than a buggy butt leap.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Greezt

[Soljin]

People were asking for a 'disengage' specifically because Hunters in WoW had that exact ability. A backwards leap. And for them it was awesome.

 

But we didn't get disengage - not even close. The WoW version was off the GCD and could be used while in mid-air, making it much, much more useful both for travelling and combat-disengagement.

 

Reliance on the 3rd tier utility is seen as a crutch largely because you have to give up far too much to get a niche improvement to a lackluster ability that can/should largely be replicated with intelligent use. Most top tier mercs don't consider it a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

This is during the time Rocket Out had become a topic among other escape concepts....

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=505620

 

I don't think you have to be a top tier Mercenary to know Smoke screen is not an acceptable trade-off which is why I wish it was baseline....If your in a 1v1 intelligent use can surely nullify the need, but unless your clairvoyant in a group skirmish smoke screen is a great way to grab some breathing room....Since Merc/Mando is usually being haunted by every Mara, Jugg and PT in proximity having the Leap defense is useful...Likely not going to save you but possibly get at least one enemy to drop target and then you have a better chance of survival.

 

I'm not sure who the top tier Merc/Mando players are or how they acquired that standing, but feel free to name drop...would love to watch their media.

[LadyDarkkitten]

For sure great information if you are in the start of an engagement with one person. Rocket out having a leap/pull immunity mid engagement or in a group skirmish is extremely useful and not a crutch.

 

To clarify I am not new to Mercenary .. (I'm not trying to disregard any advice its all awesome!)...I played Mando in Beta and my first character to max level was Mercenary I was one of the first 5 Mercenary's to 50 on Rakata Mind Prison...Doesn't mean anything but I was proud of it regardless.

 

Regarding Rocket Out...This ability was heavily discussed after the first Mercenary Nerf. I was one of many that were discussing the concept of the ability before it had a name on the forums roughly July of 2012...It didn't show up for a very long time but Rocket Out is basically what was discussed back then...we referred to the ability simply as Disengage during forum discussions.

 

Just some background....

 

All that said I disagree that smoke screen is a crutch, although I agree it is a crutch in the scenario above.

 

You mentioned mid fight and group engagements, wheras I only addressed the opening of a meeting engagement. Your right to poke harder at that. My logic can always use testing. The first thing that has to be said that if its a group fight and 2-3 melee are on you applying CC, roots and snares, then no you can't kite. You wouldn't be able to in wow either, not if you face half decent opponents who use their tool kit. Your team either has to help you by healing or peeling them off you or your done. Rocket out won't let you 1v3 a scoundrel, a sent and a guardian and win, nor should it do so! So yes in a group skirmish where 3 guys are pounding on you this abilty adds perhaps 3 gcds to your life expectancy if your team isn't helping you. Thats how it should be! It shouldn't become a godmode I can kite for ever la la la button, its place in our toolkit is (or ought to be) as a direct counter to the melee gap closers with some situational utility v other ranged classes (try using it as a sniper is about to finish an ambush cast or to put yourself behind a wall to los a sorc casting thunderblast at you).

 

Your 2nd thing was a mid fight engagement. Now I always missed masters call/freedom when I played through 1 and 2.x, but now we have hold the line base line for the spec so what you should see happen in a prolonged 1v1 versus a melee (and this applies wether its just the 2 of you, or wether that jug is chasing you around novarre south while 5 of each side are piling into each other with taunts and heals flying around everywhere) is that instead of a game of "slow wars" where everyones crawling around snared, your using Ho/HoL to break his slow and gain range kiting him. Your gonna still have him slowed and if he hasn't taken the utilty to make enrage a freedom for himself (most don't as they need unstoppable, the immob on ravage and the faster cd on charge way more; they should only struggle with kiting against us and the pts) then your going to be gaining range from him. Thats when his answer is his gap closer. Or perhaps you punted him, happens every 30 secs. Time it right and you can do a lot of damage to their team if you kited around to where your knback will push enemy healers down the hill breaking casts and pushing them out of range of the melee they were healing. Either way his answer will be to charge and thats when you rocket out, afterwards. Your counter to his pawn to king four if you will.

 

Now this is turning into a full speculative essay and I don't want to turn this into a tldr. Everything is situational and depends on whats happening at the time. That said as a general rule I don't need smokescreen and wouldn't take it even if we had a 3rd utilty to spend up there. I have a bad enough time choosing between reflective shield, overclock and shock absorbers as it is. Whichever one of those 3 I don't take I find myself constantly regretting it.

[Jherad]

This is during the time Rocket Out had become a topic among other escape concepts....

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=505620

 

Sure, I remember. And there were a whole bunch of threads talking about it in relation to WOW Hunter's disengage too. It was absolutely a popular request, but people at the time assumed we'd be getting something much better than what we actually got.

 

I don't think you have to be a top tier Mercenary to know Smoke screen is not an acceptable trade-off which is why I wish it was baseline....

 

No disagreement from me there, but I'd much rather see Rocket Out taken off the GCD, and made useable while in mid air and rooted first. The leap immunity is waaaay down the list of priorities - because again, if you use it intelligently, it's not the biggest problem.

 

I'm not sure who the top tier Merc/Mando players are or how they acquired that standing, but feel free to name drop...would love to watch their media.

 

I'm not sure if any of the best ranked mercs even stream these days. I do have a youtube channel (http://youtube.com/zachariahpvp ), but I'm more of a regstar now. I used to run ranked all the time, right back from the old 8v8 days as either dps merc or commando. I have mercs currently on SL, TEH, JM and TRE if you want to run a few matches. I was also on Harby and POT5, but transferred off to follow the PvP elsewhere.

 

But as you yourself said - Smoke Screen is not worth the tradeoff. People are just going to confirm what you already know. For ranked you should be picking Stabilized Armor and Thrill of the Hunt from tier 3. A little more flexibility for regs - but SS still doesn't make the cut.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Jherad

[Soljin]

You mentioned mid fight and group engagements, wheras I only addressed the opening of a meeting engagement. Your right to poke harder at that. My logic can always use testing. The first thing that has to be said that if its a group fight and 2-3 melee are on you applying CC, roots and snares, then no you can't kite. You wouldn't be able to in wow either, not if you face half decent opponents who use their tool kit. Your team either has to help you by healing or peeling them off you or your done. Rocket out won't let you 1v3 a scoundrel, a sent and a guardian and win, nor should it do so! So yes in a group skirmish where 3 guys are pounding on you this abilty adds perhaps 3 gcds to your life expectancy if your team isn't helping you. Thats how it should be! It shouldn't become a godmode I can kite for ever la la la button, its place in our toolkit is (or ought to be) as a direct counter to the melee gap closers with some situational utility v other ranged classes (try using it as a sniper is about to finish an ambush cast or to put yourself behind a wall to los a sorc casting thunderblast at you).

 

Your 2nd thing was a mid fight engagement. Now I always missed masters call/freedom when I played through 1 and 2.x, but now we have hold the line base line for the spec so what you should see happen in a prolonged 1v1 versus a melee (and this applies wether its just the 2 of you, or wether that jug is chasing you around novarre south while 5 of each side are piling into each other with taunts and heals flying around everywhere) is that instead of a game of "slow wars" where everyones crawling around snared, your using Ho/HoL to break his slow and gain range kiting him. Your gonna still have him slowed and if he hasn't taken the utilty to make enrage a freedom for himself (most don't as they need unstoppable, the immob on ravage and the faster cd on charge way more; they should only struggle with kiting against us and the pts) then your going to be gaining range from him. Thats when his answer is his gap closer. Or perhaps you punted him, happens every 30 secs. Time it right and you can do a lot of damage to their team if you kited around to where your knback will push enemy healers down the hill breaking casts and pushing them out of range of the melee they were healing. Either way his answer will be to charge and thats when you rocket out, afterwards. Your counter to his pawn to king four if you will.

 

Now this is turning into a full speculative essay and I don't want to turn this into a tldr. Everything is situational and depends on whats happening at the time. That said as a general rule I don't need smokescreen and wouldn't take it even if we had a 3rd utilty to spend up there. I have a bad enough time choosing between reflective shield, overclock and shock absorbers as it is. Whichever one of those 3 I don't take I find myself constantly regretting it.

 

Very good stuff, thanks for the tips I will put them to work.

[Soljin]

No disagreement from me there, but I'd much rather see Rocket Out taken off the GCD, and made useable while in mid air and rooted first. The leap immunity is waaaay down the list of priorities - because again, if you use it intelligently, it's not the biggest problem.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if any of the best ranked mercs even stream these days. I do have a youtube channel (http://youtube.com/zachariahpvp ), but I'm more of a regstar now. I used to run ranked all the time, right back from the old 8v8 days as either dps merc or commando. I have mercs currently on SL, TEH, JM and TRE if you want to run a few matches. I was also on Harby and POT5, but transferred off to follow the PvP elsewhere.

.

 

Rocket out (off the GCD) and usable while mid air/moving is a must above all else...100% behind you there.

 

I'm on Harbinger these days so probably no getting together but I'll check out your channel, thanks.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Soljin

[Soljin]

Maybe we'll get an extra utility point in the expansion to set things right.

 

That would be interesting, Still might not choose Smoke Screen though

[steveerkcanjerk]

I would say in ranked it is tough being a merc. I have done well in ranked tholl been gold in multiple seasons and silver in quite a few and would consider my self pretty damn good merc. Just gave some back drop there.

 

My take is that in regs we do great plenty of LOS around healer helps and our damage is top notch. If you know how to play it right our mobility is great for how much dps we put out. I ranked its another story. I have gotten pretty good a kiting around timing my escapes pretty well. But I find myself having to really communicate with my team alot more then other classes. For example i often have to tell the Jugg or some class with taunts and aoe stun to intercede or stay near me to cc the stealthers on the other team. I would say the stun lock is the biggest weakness but if its a team of non stealthers fighting them is not so bad with decent team work.

 

I can't say for pve cause i don't do that much all i do is pvp. But our utilites are pretty damn lackluster compared to other classes and that is mostly when it comes down to smoke screen and stabilized armor. honestly the trade off for smoke screen is fine in regs but not in ranked at all, you need the dmg reduction when stunned. I feel 1 of those utilites should be put into the trees. There is no way that would make a merc overpowered and impossible to kill but it would help free up more room for creative builds. Our class has so many must have this this and this otherwise you get smoked. If you look at many of the other classes there is alot of choice and variation between utilites.

 

I would say we are not at the bottom of the food chain tbh i would rather have an amazing kiting merc on my team rather then a sniper but thats just me. If i am the merc having a sniper is awesome but in 4v4 you are alot more reliant on your team then other classes. But i refering to solo que group ranked you can easily be viable if your squad on point and you have good team comp.

[ShadessaWayland]

merc/mando are in a bad place atm no1 play them anymore

 

in pvp you see more and more opetive/scoundrel

 

there good in healing stun locks stealth you name it so for pvpers a very good class

 

then the jugg/knight mostly tank spec with dps gear insane high damage and still good defence

 

mara/sen are also very populair

 

i dont need to tell much about sorc/saga they are always good in any ways

 

shadow/assassin see a few but not many off them ether

 

so that left merc/mando in a bad spot

maybe in dps spec we shine but our defence skills are lame

 

even with our heavy armor most classes rape our health in secs

the damage reduction wont work add all

 

when they see you in the field they all focus on you first boom dead

because they already know how weak we are

 

in my few BW really need to buff us and the healing to

i play merc/healer my self but the healing is very very low

 

but we do shine in OPS and thats about it

[steveerkcanjerk]

merc/mando are in a bad place atm no1 play them anymore

 

in pvp you see more and more opetive/scoundrel

 

there good in healing stun locks stealth you name it so for pvpers a very good class

 

then the jugg/knight mostly tank spec with dps gear insane high damage and still good defence

 

mara/sen are also very populair

 

i dont need to tell much about sorc/saga they are always good in any ways

 

shadow/assassin see a few but not many off them ether

 

so that left merc/mando in a bad spot

maybe in dps spec we shine but our defence skills are lame

 

even with our heavy armor most classes rape our health in secs

the damage reduction wont work add all

 

when they see you in the field they all focus on you first boom dead

because they already know how weak we are

 

in my few BW really need to buff us and the healing to

i play merc/healer my self but the healing is very very low

 

but we do shine in OPS and thats about it

 

We are not in as bad of a spot as you think. Do fighting stealthers suck yes it is our weakness. But for other classes we can kite the **** out of them if you know what you are doing. In regs we are great asset to the team and when people jump on you just got move smartly and have an escape plan. It is a finese class at the end of the day. The heals are great if you once again you are good, you are pretty damn mobile and burst healing is outstanding. Merc is not one of those classes that you can just sit there and roll your face across the keyboard you need to be seeing disaster before it strikes and react to it, place yourself properly. Is it tough yes, do need a buff yeah i would say somthing like phase walk would be great. you can even pull it off in arenas there are mercs that do it and are ons of *****es to kill. Also our dmg output is great and i know people scream for buffs for arena but you got to remember there is pve and regular wz as well, the classes were designed with 8v8 in mind and pve as well. We do great in raids and if you are a skilled player you can get alot out of the class. It is just harder to play then other classes, easy rotation to pick up but when to use your utility abilities and when not is really important and *********** up is punishing its just the nature of the beast.

[LadyDarkkitten]

The only difficulty is situational awareness and team work. People complain because they go into wzs and get 3 maras on them and thats it they are done. constantly running out to novarre coast south only to get jumped on by 2 ops and a jug? yeah your gonna have a bad time and that game is sucking for you. Its the same for the melee though when the enemy ranged have their act together: I've had frustrating games of void star where the 2 mercs and 2 snipers switched to my jug EVERY SINGLE time I came out the gyard. I swear the mercs were following me. Then afterwards they were all in /w to mock me for the pro dps and amazing damage numbers I didnt pull. You get games like that, its not the class though its the fact that this game is built so that you can't 1v2 decent players.