Treasure Hunting Lockboxes are causing massive inflation and a proposed solution.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

There are no absolutes but rather percentages. If your income is hard to come by then more people will be tempted to buy. If people realise they can earn money fairly easily, then they will be more inclined to wait , earn it themselves and not buy. If a higher percentage of your player base is tempted to buy then the RMTs can make a killing. But if the value of credits overall craters due to the ease at which they come, and the pool of available buyers decreases, the RMTs end up with far more than they can sell off. This is a double whammy to the supply and demand.

 

Yes indeed but rare items have felt the inflation too so sure you can get credits easier but you now need a lot more of them to buy the same rare items you could have got cheaper, earlier.

 

In terms of limited supply, player set markets I would think nothing has changed too much in terms of real world cost ... cheaper credits ( either from RMT or selling crates ) but you now need a lot more of them for such items.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Not everyone is swimming in credits. For some, including myself, items like the vented saber, lightning tuning or *insert any other super rare item* which are selling for 30-60mil would be unobtainable if they didn't either buy a hypercrate and sell it or resort to using credit selling sites.

 

Yup and if you wanted to unlock 2 of them via collections and put on another tuning and say a white + white/black dye you're looking for a total of around 100-120 mill currently on harbinger.

 

Oh you want a revan set too? There's another 90-100 mill.

 

People think these prices are outrageous and no one is paying? Think again, I paid 24 mill for a gold armor pack and got a revan set which I in turn sold for 94 million ( bargain really compared to buying bits separately ).

I still have another revan set to sell at some point too - at what point is the asking price too high these days? Used to be you couldn't sell anything for over 20 mill now 100 hardly seems to bother people.

 

I find it incredibly hard to believe this is due to "heroics" but hey maybe someone who thinks this is the case wants to offer up some insight into how they made their 100's of millions running heroics?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

That is true, however the overall pool of players willing to buy drops at the same time which brings supply and demand into the mix too. People will risk their accounts (both bank and game) if earning in-game currency is too difficult or time consuming. But if they come easily then they will be far less likely to. Also as has been said, there are not a whole lot of things you really feel obligated to spend credits on in the first place. Hence, even if everything else is equal, the pool of buyers shrinks and the RMTs earn less as they have less overall customers.

 

I am not an economist, but I would seriously doubt everything is equal in any case. There is more than one RMT and they have to compete as well and other factors come into play there when they're sitting on larger supplies.

 

The items people want to spend mass amounts of credits on is no different to a year ago imo. The super rare CM items you can't get any other way or operation style gear ( which has also seen a 3-4 fold increase in price to keep it inline with inflation it seems ) ...

 

So if you can make credits 4 times faster and easier than before but those items cost 4 times as much .... no one is spending any more real world money than before nor are they taking any more risk. If they were willing to buy credits when it was $2 for 1 mill they will do so now it's $1 for 2 mill.

 

The only way your perspective works around "easier credits" is if the price of the sought after items ( the reason people would always buy credits - they don't buy credits to assist with their crafting mats for example ) didn't also increase which it has.

[CaptRogue]

I find it incredibly hard to believe this is due to "heroics" but hey maybe someone who thinks this is the case wants to offer up some insight into how they made their 100's of millions running heroics?

 

Groups MeNaCe-NZ. Short & simple. They run all the heroics in a group of 4 65's on all their alts. And also do ops. It amasses fast. I've not done it to see if it's accurate but supposedly doing all bonuses on all heroics gets you 7m on one toon. Have a lot of hours to play a week & a lot of alts, that' quite a large chunk of credits in a week. So it's starts setting aside nicely.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Groups MeNaCe-NZ. Short & simple. They run all the heroics in a group of 4 65's on all their alts. And also do ops. It amasses fast. I've not done it to see if it's accurate but supposedly doing all bonuses on all heroics gets you 7m on one toon. Have a lot of hours to play a week & a lot of alts, that' quite a large chunk of credits in a week. So it's starts setting aside nicely.

 

Oh sure I've heard it all before ... yes credits are easier to get, much easier. They however aren't so much easier to get running content that just flipping over 100 mill is no biggie.

 

Curious then ... how long does 100 mill take an individual take to earn now in terms of pure, raw game play and sticking with groups noting it would take 3 others ( though not neccessarily the same 3 )?

 

Even then I have no doubt some are doing it no worries, but enough people doing it en masse to make 35 million an equivalent price to 5 million for a new hypercrate? I think not personally.

[Knorlac]

Yup and if you wanted to unlock 2 of them via collections and put on another tuning and say a white + white/black dye you're looking for a total of around 100-120 mill currently on harbinger.

 

Oh you want a revan set too? There's another 90-100 mill.

 

People think these prices are outrageous and no one is paying? Think again, I paid 24 mill for a gold armor pack and got a revan set which I in turn sold for 94 million ( bargain really compared to buying bits separately ).

I still have another revan set to sell at some point too - at what point is the asking price too high these days? Used to be you couldn't sell anything for over 20 mill now 100 hardly seems to bother people.

 

I find it incredibly hard to believe this is due to "heroics" but hey maybe someone who thinks this is the case wants to offer up some insight into how they made their 100's of millions running heroics?

 

Yep, those items definitely sell for a lot higher now. On TRE any vented sabers are selling for about 45-55mil and lighning tunings for over 30mil as well. Not hard to believe that someone will pay 100mil upward for even rarer stuff.

 

As for heroics, they DO pay a lot if done in group. So people who didn't mind grinding dailies ad nauseam on all of their alts before are probably having a field day.

[Rantank]

The items people want to spend mass amounts of credits on is no different to a year ago imo. The super rare CM items you can't get any other way or operation style gear ( which has also seen a 3-4 fold increase in price to keep it inline with inflation it seems ) ...

 

So if you can make credits 4 times faster and easier than before but those items cost 4 times as much .... no one is spending any more real world money than before nor are they taking any more risk. If they were willing to buy credits when it was $2 for 1 mill they will do so now it's $1 for 2 mill.

 

The only way your perspective works around "easier credits" is if the price of the sought after items ( the reason people would always buy credits - they don't buy credits to assist with their crafting mats for example ) didn't also increase which it has.

 

Also true, however you're talking about a very small rarefied market with limited replay-ability as it were.

 

I remember in Wow the pressure was on to buy gold as early on the epic mounts were so damn expensive that only the hardcore rogues had them for the longest time. A lot of people did buy gold then just to get around that speed hump as absolutely everyone wanted an epic mount on every character. Games don't do that anymore as they realise they only fuel the RMT market.

 

Morons with too much money notwithstanding, everyone doesn't want a Tulak hat, AND a spiffy lightsaber, AND a white crystal AND the new outfit launched this week AND the new outfit launched next week. We're usually selective about what we want and its easier to temper your desires when things are in reach if you don't get too greedy. It is easy enough to earn 5 -10 million a week without getting too conscientious. And once earned you can buy your light saber and unlock it to spread the joy around.

 

I run heroics, solo as I can't be arsed waiting around in groups. I have also written down which ones are instanced so I don't have to compete for drops/kills. Then I wiffle through those ones at a cracking pace, alt after alt. I do a complete set of heroics probably once or twice each week too but I don't sweat over it. That gives me more than enough to buy what I want within a few weeks. And if you keep doing it even when you don't want to buy something then you'll be in the enviable position of being able to buy it straight away when something does appear.

 

The primary reason prices have gone up is people are sitting on big piles of cash. People can leap frog the earning process by buying a hypercrate and selling it or its contents, rinse and repeat until you reach your goal. That process tends to take money from people who have been hatching an enormous pile of dosh and gives it to those who might otherwise buy from RMTs. This has shut the RMT's out of the cycle to a large extent.

 

Whether its by playing the GTN or crafting or grinding there is serious coinage to be made if you have the time and inclination. Those that do, earn enough that they can push the prices higher to crowd out those who just login to do a couple of warzones and log again. Given the collectors market doesn't impact the game in anyway, not so many feel the pressure to spend money at Dodgy-Bros to get past any speed humps that aren't there.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Rantank

[Max_Killjoy]

Groups MeNaCe-NZ. Short & simple. They run all the heroics in a group of 4 65's on all their alts. And also do ops. It amasses fast. I've not done it to see if it's accurate but supposedly doing all bonuses on all heroics gets you 7m on one toon. Have a lot of hours to play a week & a lot of alts, that' quite a large chunk of credits in a week. So it's starts setting aside nicely.

 

Which makes the entire in-game "economy" a mess for anyone without reliable grouping opportunities for heroics, etc.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[CrazyCT]

Which makes the entire in-game "economy" a mess for anyone without reliable grouping opportunities for heroics, etc.

 

If you want to make money, you have to do the things that make the money. If I want a new toy, I don't just stand around and hope that the world will change so that I can start getting more money with no extra effort. I start doing some overtime and save up to buy it. If I don't make any extra effort, I don't deserve a shiny GTX 1080.

[Max_Killjoy]

If you want to make money, you have to do the things that make the money. If I want a new toy, I don't just stand around and hope that the world will change so that I can start getting more money with no extra effort. I start doing some overtime and save up to buy it. If I don't make any extra effort, I don't deserve a shiny GTX 1080.

 

OK, try again, this time after actually reading what I posted, and in the context of what it was in response to. Seriously, it helps if you actually respond to the person you're quoting and what they're saying, rather than someone else you wish you could respond to at that moment.

 

Here's a hint -- no where in my post did I say a word about not doing "things" or getting credits without "effort".

Edited June 7, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[Knorlac]

If you want to make money, you have to do the things that make the money. If I want a new toy, I don't just stand around and hope that the world will change so that I can start getting more money with no extra effort. I start doing some overtime and save up to buy it. If I don't make any extra effort, I don't deserve a shiny GTX 1080.

 

This is a video game though and most people play those to get away from work, not get another job going. Sure, things like crafting and playing the GTN will always net the greatest rewards and I'm ok with that, it's the balance between the rest of the content that irks me.

 

Why should roflstomping heroics that can be solo'd without effort with 4 players get you millions for example and doing group content that actually needs a group like HM FPs and OPs leave you with a tiny fraction of that?

And what about PvP or just doing a lot of quests?

Edited June 7, 2016 by Knorlac

[Max_Killjoy]

This is a video game though and most people play those to get away from work, not get another job going. Sure, things like crafting and playing the GTN will always net the greatest rewards and I'm ok with that, it's the balance between the rest of the content that irks me.

 

Why should roflstomping heroics that can be solo'd without effort with 4 players get you millions for example and doing group content that actually needs a group like HM FPs and OPs leave you with a tiny fraction of that?

 

More importantly, at least to the thing I actually said, why should 4 people doing a Heroic together get more credits (as in, each of them, individually, getting more credits) than if they did the Heroic solo?

[Knorlac]

More importantly, at least to the thing I actually said, why should 4 people doing a Heroic together get more credits (as in, each of them, individually, getting more credits) than if they did the Heroic solo?

 

Well it seems like they want to promote grouping, but again, wouldn't it make sense to do so in regards to activities that actually need a group?

That said, I agree with you, it would be more logical for me to give a higher reward to people who solo those heroics and spend more time doing them. Then again you always earned more by doing things in a group. The heroics just blow this completely out of proportion.

[Halinalle]

sure some of them sell credits but that helps the economy too when the buyers then use the credits on the gtn.

 

No, that doesn't help at all. In fact it's bad for economy.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Halinalle

[IanArgent]

Well it seems like they want to promote grouping, but again, wouldn't it make sense to do so in regards to activities that actually need a group?

That said, I agree with you, it would be more logical for me to give a higher reward to people who solo those heroics and spend more time doing them. Then again you always earned more by doing things in a group. The heroics just blow this completely out of proportion.

 

The bonus missions provide too much of the reward right now - it at least doubles the base payout, which means running in a group of 4 multiplies the payout by around 2.5; which seems to be an awfully big carrot for grouping.

[Akostt]

No, that doesn't help at all. In fact it's bad for economy.

 

well treasure boxes have been giving this massive amount of credits since kotfe so the devs disagree. they obviously want massive amounts of credits to be generated from those treasure box missions.

[Knorlac]

well treasure boxes have been giving this massive amount of credits since kotfe so the devs disagree. they obviously want massive amounts of credits to be generated from those treasure box missions.

 

That why they cut down on the slicing rewards and removed credits from treasure chests? I reckon treasure hunting will get the same treatment as well before long.

[Andryah]

More importantly, at least to the thing I actually said, why should 4 people doing a Heroic together get more credits (as in, each of them, individually, getting more credits) than if they did the Heroic solo?

 

Because many players in modern MMOs needs there to be an incentive for them to play some aspect of content, especially grouping. The old days of grouping just for social reasons is pretty well gone in MMOs IMO. And content in general..... unless it rewards the player as the player wants.... then tend to ignore it or come to the forum and complain about it.

 

If you get more credits in a group then solo.. then... some people will deliberately group to gain the bonus. I personally would not.. but I understand that missions are some peoples main form of credit earning. So I see the bonus credits for groups to be a good thing in an era where much of the content could actually be done solo.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Andryah

[IanArgent]

At this point, credits are effectively meaningless outside the GTN. Sure, there are a few credit sinks out in the world still (taxi fees, space transit costs, repair bills), but in the grand scheme of things, these are tiny compared to the credit awards being given out.

 

I wonder if that was deliberate? It may have been, actually.

[Andryah]

At this point, credits are effectively meaningless outside the GTN. Sure, there are a few credit sinks out in the world still (taxi fees, space transit costs, repair bills), but in the grand scheme of things, these are tiny compared to the credit awards being given out.

 

I wonder if that was deliberate? It may have been, actually.

 

Honestly.. I think this was deliberate on the part of the studio.

 

It achieves two things:

 

1) allows newer players to move up the game curve (including wealth accumulation) at a pace that enables them to be on parity with multi-year veterans in a matter of months, rather then years. This is key for modern MMOs, given the amount of "churn" and lack of player commitment generally these days with games. This is good for keeping fresh players entering the game and not feeling like second class citizens.

 

2) it appears to have pretty well has gutted the RMT market, as they appear to be falling all over themselves to practically give away credits these days. It also in turn, guts the seller side of the RMT broker model as there is little incentive for players to sell their credits to brokers given the likely prices being offered.

 

The only downside I see to it is that it pushes up the average conversion rates for CCs-2-Credits. By this I mean that items bought with CCs and sold on the GTN demand higher credit prices as a result. Which is fine, IMO. I really don't see much in the way of inflation in game for common CM items..... only for select unlocks and of course the always pricey and speculator driven super rare collectors market (which is not inflation per se... as it does not track the rest of the GTN market spreads). We very much have a glut of silver pack items in the GTNs selling at incredibly low prices .. and that means great opportunity for people working the low end of the market (like me) for a buy/hold/resell later model. There is a lot of profit to be made specializing in clearing the markets of surplus and then reselling them at reasonable market driven prices later on. It requires volume, rather then speculation on rarity, and a good eye for what will sell later at a profit (not everything will, or does).

Edited June 7, 2016 by Andryah

[IanArgent]

Honestly.. I think this was deliberate on the part of the studio.

 

It achieves two things:

 

1) allows newer players to move up the game curve (including wealth accumulation) at a pace that enables them to be on parity with multi-year veterans in a matter of months, rather then years. This is key for modern MMOs, given the amount of "churn" and lack of player commitment generally these days with games. This is good for keeping fresh players entering the game and not feeling like second class citizens.

 

Oh, the removal of levelling credit sinks beyond the extremely trivial one of taxis is one I heartily approve of, and appears to have been quite deliberate; for the reasons you state. It's the missing repeating end-game sinks I wonder about.

 

2) it appears to have pretty well has gutted the RMT market, as they appear to be falling all over themselves to practically give away credits these days. It also in turn, guts the seller side of the RMT broker model as there is little incentive for players to sell their credits to brokers given the likely prices being offered.

 

Again, I suspect this was a deliberate action against RMTs.

 

The only downside I see to it is that it pushes up the average conversion rates for CCs-2-Credits. By this I mean that items bought with CCs and sold on the GTN demand higher credit prices as a result. Which is fine, IMO. I really don't see much in the way of inflation in game for common CM items..... only for select unlocks and of course the always pricey and speculator driven super rare collectors market (which is not inflation per se... as it does not track the rest of the GTN market spread).

 

I wonder if this is a reaction to the potentially gigantic amount of "free" CCs forum vets can get every month, simply by having their referral code in their .sig (as I do, and I was shocked at how quickly that started to add up). However, unless they're going to inflate the CC supply purchaseable by USD, that could backfire on them.

 

OTOH, after the Slicing box nerf, why didn't they severely cut back on the amount of Cr in treasure hunting boxes? The primary reward for those is supposed to be the gear and schematics; and it took me a while to realize than they were also paying out Cr. And it's often enough to cover the cost of running the mission, or close to. I'm not going to say it's an exploit, or obviously unintended, but it sure seems strange to me.

[Andryah]

OTOH, after the Slicing box nerf, why didn't they severely cut back on the amount of Cr in treasure hunting boxes? The primary reward for those is supposed to be the gear and schematics; and it took me a while to realize than they were also paying out Cr. And it's often enough to cover the cost of running the mission, or close to. I'm not going to say it's an exploit, or obviously unintended, but it sure seems strange to me.

 

Well... this has been a recurring theme since launch. Remember when they made the first nerf of slicing back early after launch?

 

What I think happens here is the studio endeavors to be generous with gathering missions, but when clever players decide to exploit the studios intentions through over harvest for the sake of credit vacuuming.... they force the studio to make a correction in drop rates and levels. My guess is the studio watches key analytics and when they see an epidemic (rather then spot opportunism by a few) they work out what leash they want to put on the players to reign in unintended behavior.

 

IMO, the studio needs a small team of alpha testers who have a particular knack for finding weaknesses in game settings like drop rates and amounts and prove to the studio there is a problem waiting to happen and to adjust it prior to release. Maybe they do.. and we only see the ones that escaped internal abuse testing.

 

Note: I am not referring to exploits via deliberate violation of ToS... but rather the clever nature of some players to seek and find any way open to gaming the studios design intentions.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Andryah

[IanArgent]

Well... this has been a recurring theme since launch. Remember when they made the first nerf of slicing back early after launch?

 

My CC ledger says I subbed in Jan 2013, and I wa sonly F2P for a month before that, so ... no

 

What I think happens here is the studio endeavors to be generous with gathering missions, but when clever players decide to exploit the studios intentions through over harvest for the sake of credit vacuuming.... they force the studio to make a correction in drop rates and levels. My guess is the studio watches key analytics and when they see an epidemic (rather then spot opportunism by a few) they work out what leash they want to put on the players to reign in unintended behavior.

 

Makes sense. Occam approves.

 

IMO, the studio needs a small team of alpha testers who have a particular knack for finding weaknesses in game settings like drop rates and amounts and prove to the studio there is a problem waiting to happen and to adjust it prior to release. Maybe they do.. and we only see the ones that escaped internal abuse testing.

 

I doubt there's a dedicated tiger team for this kind of thing; for one thing, it wouldn't be sufficient. They're facing the combined intellects of possibly thousands of enemies, all highly motivated to find the gaps in the plan because their livelihood depends on it. I'm sure the designers are supposed to consider the possible consequences, but it's really more efficient to let the world show them where the broken parts are, and play whack-a-mole at those holes.

[Akostt]

Honestly.. I think this was deliberate on the part of the studio.

 

 

it appears to have pretty well has gutted the RMT market, as they appear to be falling all over themselves to practically give away credits these days. It also in turn, guts the seller side of the RMT broker model as there is little incentive for players to sell their credits to brokers given the likely prices being offered.

 

 

 

rofl credit sellers are making a fortune right now. as long as you use treasure boxes you're gauranteed lots of pure credits. it doesn't matter if it sells for 60 cents/million or 30 cents/million when you can generate tens of millions of credits easily. plus how many people buy cartel coins with prices for credits this cheap. definitely big profits for credit sellers right now.

[Knorlac]

rofl credit sellers are making a fortune right now. as long as you use treasure boxes you're gauranteed lots of pure credits. it doesn't matter if it sells for 60 cents/million or 30 cents/million when you can generate tens of millions of credits easily. plus how many people buy cartel coins with prices for credits this cheap. definitely big profits for credit sellers right now.

 

Anyone who doesn't want to run the hightened risk of falling prey to a IT based attack on their personal data and/or bank account and don't want to get permabanned perhaps? So I'd say quite a lot.