zImperium Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) WARNING: This thread has become less than civil. Please do not attack each other directly. Name calling, and throwing out facts without proof is not the way to win your arguments. Do not feed the trolls. If someone attacks you, just continue with your conversation like they do not exist. Thanks! -Imper1um TL;DR; The Nerf's correct wording should be as follows: Slicing's missions have been nerfed by 71% ---------------------------- What changed? Approximately 1pm ET today, the servers came up, and, as I have tested the raw data last time, I decided to do a raw data test. Most of the Slicers already know that its been nerfed, however, not many have known exactly how much the nerf has changed. How hard did they nerf it? Pretty hard. We're looking at a 71-95% from pre-nerf. Credits Per Second (CPS) is down to 0.34 on L4 missions, and 0.38 on L5 missions. Is it worth taking slicing now? To be honest, unless you're farming for Augments, it really isn't. 0.38 CPS is a pretty low number for your return. If you're really unlucky, you could have negative CPS very easily. What was it before? Approximately 1.2-1.3 CPS for L4 boxes, 0.9 for L5 boxes and 0.7 for L6 boxes. Do the higher boxes give more CPS now? L5 boxes got a slight buff, but I just may have been lucky. L6 boxes are still the same. Avoid. How much do you think I could make in a day? Probably about 100k in a day, farming for 24 hours with no breaks. In 8 hours, you probably would make a third of that. So it no longer covers the cost of running missions? No. Not at all. You're looking at a return of 200-500 credits after you consider how much you spent on the slicing mission itself. If you want to cover the cost of running other missions, you will need to send 4 of the 5 of your companions, and then you may cover the costs of the fifth mission. Does companion affection increase my CPS? Barely. You'll get slightly better rewards, but you're looking at a 0.01-0.04 CPS increase. Companion Affection doesn't decrease time spent anymore, either. This makes me sad panda. Did the crit rate change as well? Yes, I think. I didn't test it very well pre-patch, but it looks like the Crit rate has decreased by the same 71%. I'm sticking with slicing for the money. What do you advise for missions now? Level 5 lockboxes. Crit rate is decent, and if you have high affection, you will get more money that way. Do you think it was overnerfed? Yes, and no. I think slicing did[/b] need a nerf, but more of a 40-60% nerf, not a 71% nerf. As it stands, Slicing requires 4 of the 5 companions to pay for 1 non-slicing mission. Pre-patch it was 1 companion, maybe 2. Cutting the slicing by 40-60% requires 3 companions, but still allows 2 companions to go on missions. As it stands, you will need 4 companions to still make money (a little) and run 1 non-slicing mission. What was your testing method? 5 companions running missions from Level 1 to Level 5. To be honest, I only completed 16% of my testing because the data was looking dreary. I will continue tomorrow when I get out of the drearyness this nerf brought about. Do you think I should replace slicing with another mission skill? Not really. Slicing helps in some flashpoints, and I think they will realize that this nerf is too "nerfy". It was a "reactionary nerf", seeing that pre-nerf, you could get 1 million credits in less than 4 days. It was making slicing required. Now, its optional, which is what the crew skills are...OPTIONAL. Should I just run "abundant" yield missions? Not really. Abundant yields mean more credits, but the CPS is only slightly higher. You're still spending more time, and spending more money. Its kind of funny, really. Can I see your statistics? Of course, that's what I'm here for. I'm not going to publish the full work until I'm done with testing (50 of each mission), but I will post my preliminary data below. UPDATED: December 28, 2011 (9:35a ET) If it's not made for money making, then what use is slicing? This is easy. On some FPs, you will be granted some extra bonuses, such as on Collocoid War Games where you can get your very own pet for the last fight! Secondly, slicing is made to offset the guaranteed negative CPS that each profession gives you. Also, there are cases around the galaxy which are worth the same amount that you make on a mission, for free! Do some exploration, and you will find them. You mentioned a Negative CPS in certain cases, is this the case the entire time? Yes, and no. You can get a Negative CPS streak very easily. Failure rate, low returns can all attribute to a Negative CPS. However, statistics show that you will get Positive CPS eventually to negate the Negative CPS. Just don't expect to always go up anymore. So are the best missions now rank 5, regardless if there are abundant/rich yield missions on the other ranks? Yes. The game seems to equal out at Level 5 missions, but do not disregard Level 6 and Level 4. Level 4 has the proof that it is only *very* slightly lower than Level 5 missions. This is because Level 5 has a higher crit yield. Also, you cannot run just Level 5 missions; you are only given 3 to run, so you have to look to Level 6 and Level 4. Use my information to decide what you do with your other two companions. Discussion: Is Slicing now the underdog of the Crew Missions? The answer is yes and no. Gatherables (such as BioAnalysis), grant you items. If you vendor them, you will not turn a profit on these missions. However, if you can sell on the Market (or whatever its called) for credits to other players, right now you can turn a lucrative profit. However, after a month or two once the nerf takes place, the credit requirement that people are advertising for the items may go down, and the other mission/gathering skills will turn less of a profit on the Market, and may come more in line with Slicing, but still will not be anywhere close where Slicing is right now. ---------------------- The results Missions Remaining Level Number Remaining % Comp 1 4 46 8% 2 5 45 10% 3 4 46 8% 4 7 43 14% 5 9 41 18% 6 14 36 28% % Complete 14.33% Current CPS Level SUM CPS Average CPS 1 0.129166667 0.032291667 2 0.605650492 0.121130098 3 0.819545861 0.204886465 4 2.432370979 0.347481568 5 3.438934908 0.382103879 6 2.683796296 0.191699735 Current Time Level SUM Average Minutes 1 840 210 3.5 2 1535 307 5.1 3 3366 841.5 14 4 8324 1189.1 19.8 5 14704 1633.7 27.2 6 28224 2016 33.6 Average Return Level Sum Average 1 863 215.75 2 1954 390.8 3 3423 855.75 4 11043 1577.571429 5 18173 2019.222222 6 25805 1843.214286 Average Delta Level Sum Average 1 33 8.25 2 124 24.8 3 663 165.75 4 3128 446.8571429 5 5888 654.2222222 6 5505 393.2142857 Edited December 28, 2011 by zImperium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zImperium Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Current Data Who Affection Mission Name Level Yield Minutes Seconds Total Seconds Cost Gain Delta CPS C2-N2 0 An Open Contract 1 Abundant 3 0 180 120 149 29 0.161111111 Lieutenant Iresso 4322 An Open Contract 1 Abundant 3 0 180 120 85 -35 -0.194444444 C2-N2 0 Vanishing Acts 1 Rich 4 0 240 295 284 -11 -0.045833333 Lieutenant Iresso 4322 Vanishing Acts 1 Rich 4 0 240 295 345 50 0.208333333 Theran Cedrax 7289 Finders Keepers 2 Moderate 4 0 240 220 250 30 0.125 Theran Cedrax 7289 For Better or Worse 2 Rich 6 0 360 535 477 -58 -0.161111111 Zenith 3635 High Finance 2 Rich 5 0 300 285 579 294 0.98 Zenith 5635 Identify and Neutralize 2 Rich 6 35 395 560 405 -155 -0.392405063 Lieutenant Iresso 4322 Pirate Partygoers 2 Moderate 4 0 240 230 243 13 0.054166667 C2-N2 0 Arranged Accidents 3 Rich 12 12 732 870 1097 227 0.31010929 Theran Cedrax 7289 Droid Madness 3 Abundant 9 42 582 460 567 107 0.183848797 C2-N2 0 Prince of Fools 3 Bountiful 11 0 660 780 892 112 0.16969697 Lieutenant Iresso 4322 Twist Their Arm 3 Prosperous* 23 12 1392 650 867 217 0.155890805 C2-N2 0 Be Careful What You Read 4 Bountiful 18 33 1113 1175 1777 602 0.540880503 Zenith 3635 His Home is his Castle 4 Abundant 26 16 1576 1075 2382 1307 0.829314721 C2-N2 0 Pointing Fingers 4 Bountiful 19 22 1162 1250 1234 -16 -0.013769363 C2-N2 0 Pointing Fingers 4 Bountiful 19 22 1162 1250 1542 292 0.251290878 C2-N2 0 Pointing Fingers 4 Bountiful 19 22 1162 1250 1919 669 0.575731497 Zenith 3635 Pointing Fingers 4 Bountiful 19 22 1162 1250 1438 188 0.161790017 Zenith 3635 Spy Droid 4 Moderate 16 27 987 665 751 86 0.087132725 Zenith 5635 Finding Our Way 5 Rich 29 28 1768 1930 2357 427 0.241515837 Theran Cedrax 7289 Finding Our Way 5 Rich 29 28 1768 1930 1470 -460 -0.260180995 Zenith 3635 His Home is his Castle 5 Abundant 26 16 1576 1075 1272 197 0.125 Zenith 3635 His Home is his Castle 5 Abundant 26 16 1576 1075 1533 458 0.290609137 C2-N2 0 Off the Grid 5 Abundant 27 4 1624 1135 1492 357 0.219827586 Lieutenant Iresso 4322 Off the Grid 5 Abundant 27 4 1624 1135 1261 126 0.077586207 Zenith 5635 Sabotage and Repair 5 Moderate 24 32 1472 990 928 -62 -0.042119565 Nadia Grell 10000 Sabotage and Repair 5 Moderate 24 32 1472 990 1985 995 0.675951087 Nadia Grell 10000 Taking Back Control 5 Rich 30 24 1824 2025 5875 3850 2.110745614 C2-N2 0 Plug the Leak 6 Moderate 31 12 1872 1415 1944 529 0.28258547 Lieutenant Iresso 4322 Plug the Leak 6 Moderate 31 12 1872 1415 1184 -231 -0.123397436 Lieutenant Iresso 4322 Plug the Leak 6 Moderate 31 12 1872 1415 2026 611 0.326388889 Theran Cedrax 7289 Plug the Leak 6 Moderate 31 12 1872 1415 1306 -109 -0.058226496 Theran Cedrax 7289 Plug the Leak 6 Moderate 31 12 1872 1415 1416 1 0.000534188 Theran Cedrax 7289 Plug the Leak 6 Moderate 31 12 1872 1415 1795 380 0.202991453 Theran Cedrax 7289 Plug the Leak 6 Moderate 31 12 1872 1415 2132 717 0.383012821 C2-N2 0 The Azure Databanks 6 Abundant 36 0 2160 1485 3374 1889 0.874537037 Lieutenant Iresso 4322 The Azure Databanks 6 Abundant 36 0 2160 1485 1192 -293 -0.135648148 Lieutenant Iresso 4322 The Azure Databanks 6 Abundant 36 0 2160 1485 1707 222 0.102777778 Lieutenant Iresso 4322 The Azure Databanks 6 Abundant 36 0 2160 1485 2095 610 0.282407407 Theran Cedrax 7289 The Azure Databanks 6 Abundant 36 0 2160 1485 1626 141 0.065277778 Theran Cedrax 7289 The Azure Databanks 6 Abundant 36 0 2160 1485 1949 464 0.214814815 Theran Cedrax 7289 The Azure Databanks 6 Abundant 36 0 2160 1485 2059 574 0.265740741 You can Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V this into Excel and it will put it out there correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exphryl Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Sooo.... You guys have to farm credits like the rest of us? The horror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythoris Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 A very impressive and informative thread you have here. I'm not at the point where I can take crew skills yet, but when I am I was planning on taking artifice, archaeology, and treasure hunting because I want to make lightsabers and the such. I was also planning to take slicing on the side to help fund some skill levelling and missions. Now, not so sure about slicing... Do you have any advice as far as these plans? I hope I'm making the right move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zImperium Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Thank you for unlocking the post. I'm not whining, I'm just giving you guys the Raw Data. I did extensive testing, and I plan on continuing to do extensive testing on the game. I wanted a nerf. It needed a nerf. However, the data shows that it may not be worth it at all anymore. The main purpose of the post was to provide RAW data to people. That is about it. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zImperium Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 A very impressive and informative thread you have here. I'm not at the point where I can take crew skills yet, but when I am I was planning on taking artifice, archaeology, and treasure hunting because I want to make lightsabers and the such. I was also planning to take slicing on the side to help fund some skill levelling and missions. Now, not so sure about slicing... Do you have any advice as far as these plans? I hope I'm making the right move. My advice is that Slicing is *still* viable, just understand you will need to send 4 of the 5 of your people on L4/L5 slicing missions to make money while having the fifth person do a non-slicing mission. Is slicing completely useless now? No! Its not! Dropping it is a reactionary move. You won't gain as much credits due to the nerf, but its not made for money making. This is supposed to be an optional skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEnsign Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Sooo.... You guys have to farm credits like the rest of us? The horror. Um, no. If you had more than a 2nd grade reading comprehension level you'd see that about 100k per 24 hours for "pressing a button" as the simpletons call it, is the expected yield. So it's still, go PvP or quest and make money too. Just not enough that I'm going to share it by buying over priced goods on the GTN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pansophist Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) Um, no. If you had more than a 2nd grade reading comprehension level you'd see that about 100k per 24 hours for "pressing a button" as the simpletons call it, is the expected yield. So it's still, go PvP or quest and make money too. Just not enough that I'm going to share it by buying over priced goods on the GTN. These are my feelings Before, I could foot my guild's repair bills + assist with purchasing mats for myself and everyone's crafting skills. Now, I plan on retaining the earnings to foot my own repair bill, then maybe I'll have some pocket change leftover for the occasional dinner out. But you can bet I won't be buying your mats on the GTN. Also, incredibly informative thread. Thank you for this. I love seeing the intelligent threads versus the bantering going on. I was hoping for a slicing nerf (I'm sitting at 400 slicing myself, and it did seem rather...extravagant), but I was hoping for more of a 30-50% nerf. Anywhere in there would have suited me quite fine, but I guesstimated a 80% nerf and looks like I overshot it a bit but that's still rather extreme. Edited December 28, 2011 by Pansophist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zImperium Posted December 28, 2011 Author Share Posted December 28, 2011 Um, no. If you had more than a 2nd grade reading comprehension level you'd see that about 100k per 24 hours for "pressing a button" as the simpletons call it, is the expected yield. So it's still, go PvP or quest and make money too. Just not enough that I'm going to share it by buying over priced goods on the GTN. Please do not feed the trolls. I would like better discussion on, perhaps, what they think the CPS should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Now take your slightly positive CPS, and factor in the steeply negative CPS that the other professions have, and you'll see why Slicing is now in-balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pansophist Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Now take your slightly positive CPS, and factor in the steeply negative CPS that the other professions have, and you'll see why Slicing is now in-balance. I'd enjoy seeing your math on this. My buddy that I leveled with has TH as his primary gathering professions. He does very well for himself because he is able to sell the items he receives from the missions (in addition to the lockboxes). Same goes with my guildies who run UT, they do pretty well for themselves after taking the time to sell the returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythoris Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Is slicing completely useless now? No! Its not! Dropping it is a reactionary move. You won't gain as much credits due to the nerf, but its not made for money making. This is supposed to be an optional skill. If it's not made for money making, then what use is slicing? From how it sounds, the chance of actually turning a profit from slicing have gone down exponentially. I thought slicing was all about the credits. If it costs more money to slice than it makes, then why still slice? I mean, sending your companions out on slicing missions is expensive, is it not? You have to do more than break even if it's to be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I'd enjoy seeing your math on this. My buddy that I leveled with has TH as his primary gathering professions. He does very well for himself because he is able to sell the items he receives from the missions (in addition to the lockboxes). Same goes with my guildies who run UT, they do pretty well for themselves after taking the time to sell the returns. And if there weren't 8 times more slicers than any other profession, you'd almost certainly do very well selling your premium missions and augments, but the profession was broken, everyone chose it for free credits, and now there's no market for augments. And I'm going to wager your buddy (anecdotal evidence FTL, by the way) wasn't making nearly as much as you were making while never having to leave your ship. He, on the other hand, likely has overflowing holds with items he can't sell, and if he sat down and did the math on how much missions cost him compared to how much he makes, I doubt he'd come close to .38 CPS unless he's just getting really lucky on some of his rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlhaas Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Now take your slightly positive CPS, and factor in the steeply negative CPS that the other professions have, and you'll see why Slicing is now in-balance. Dude, stop being *I can't say it for fear of being banned*. Other professions don't have negative CPS, because you are guaranteed something in return of your time. With slicing the way they have done it, you're not. You obviously know this, you obviously relish in it and are just being a troll for troll's sake. So you got me, congrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzerswords Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Sooo.... You guys have to farm credits like the rest of us? The horror. Im sorry when its 2 months form now and everyone is paying top credit for our overpriced gear to do operations and I still have no credits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 If it's not made for money making, then what use is slicing? From how it sounds, the chance of actually turning a profit from slicing have gone down exponentially. I thought slicing was all about the credits. If it costs more money to slice than it makes, then why still slice? I mean, sending your companions out on slicing missions is expensive, is it not? You have to do more than break even if it's to be worth it. Go out into the world, play the game, find lockboxes, slice them, get credits. Instant profitability. Other professions bleed money doing missions forcing them to actually finance their own progression as they essentially buy skill-ups. Slicing doesn't have to do that. You get to level up the skill all the way to 400 for a tiny fraction of what it costs any other gathering profession to reach that level. You can have a rank 400 skill at level 8 which is ridiculous. This is the only game I've ever played (other than Eve) which gives you the abiilty to train a skill and get skill points without DOING anything. And yes, that skill point should cost you credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoiN Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 And if there weren't 8 times more slicers than any other profession, you'd almost certainly do very well selling your premium missions and augments, but the profession was broken, everyone chose it for free credits, and now there's no market for augments. And I'm going to wager your buddy (anecdotal evidence FTL, by the way) wasn't making nearly as much as you were making while never having to leave your ship. He, on the other hand, likely has overflowing holds with items he can't sell, and if he sat down and did the math on how much missions cost him compared to how much he makes, I doubt he'd come close to .38 CPS unless he's just getting really lucky on some of his rewards. There's never really been a market for augmets. Atleast there's only 2 pages of augments on my server's GTN, and that's not a whole lot compared to how many pages of Crew Skill Mission Discoveries there are. Thing is people have to craft exceptional (I believe that's the one) before they even have an augment slot, and that seem to be an extremely rare occasion that even happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donger Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Go out into the world, play the game, find lockboxes, slice them, get credits. Instant profitability. Other professions bleed money doing missions forcing them to actually finance their own progression as they essentially buy skill-ups. Slicing doesn't have to do that. You get to level up the skill all the way to 400 for a tiny fraction of what it costs any other gathering profession to reach that level. You can have a rank 400 skill at level 8 which is ridiculous. This is the only game I've ever played (other than Eve) which gives you the abiilty to train a skill and get skill points without DOING anything. And yes, that skill point should cost you credits. Wrong... slicing is a gathering profession. Not a crafting one. No skills to buy. Might as well nerf UWT and Diplo. Both of those are highly more profitable than slicing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pythoris Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Wrong... slicing is a gathering profession. Not a crafting one. No skills to buy. Might as well nerf UWT and Diplo. Both of those are highly more profitable than slicing. Really? Hmm... Maybe I'll try UWT then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokota Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Now take your slightly positive CPS, and factor in the steeply negative CPS that the other professions have, and you'll see why Slicing is now in-balance. That might be true while leveling a gathering skill, but at 400/400, I see much more profit from Salvaging. All I need to do is check the GTM to see what materials are in demand, then run missions for them. Some compounds and metals gross over 1,000 credits per piece. Materials in some other professions sell at even higher prices. It's unprofitable to drop Slicing at this point, but if I had it to do over, I would go with something else. Slicing yields are capped at a low rate, but other gathering professions can go as high as product demand takes them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rijde Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I like expected value better than some sort of rate like credits per second. People didn't get credits per second. They got an expected return, which, even before the nerf, was hardly comparable to grinding trivial content. http://www.dartmouth.edu/~chance/teaching_aids/books_articles/probability_book/Chapter6.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammarus Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Based on my own trials. I can confirm the OP's findings. And I agree, unless your in it for the augments, its not worth it. You can kill mobs and get body loot/credits that create more income at a far faster rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) Wrong... slicing is a gathering profession. Not a crafting one. No skills to buy. Might as well nerf UWT and Diplo. Both of those are highly more profitable than slicing. Skill-ups, not skills. Skill POINTS, not skills. You were advancing your capabilities as a slicer and actually making credits doing it, whereas all the other gathering professions have to either skill-up gradually as they move on to higher level zones by farming nodes, or they can do it through missions and it will cost them a HUGE amount of credits. It would cost something like 300,000 credits to level scavenging to 400 through missions. Slicers were doing it and making a hundred thousand credits on top of that, and then continued making thousands of credits an hour after that. And could do it without ever leaving their ship. How anyone can think that's not OP is beyond me. Edited December 28, 2011 by Mannic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aivedoir Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 So are the best missions now rank 5, regardless if there are abundant/rich yield missions on the other ranks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannic Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 (edited) Based on my own trials. I can confirm the OP's findings. And I agree, unless your in it for the augments, its not worth it. You can kill mobs and get body loot/credits that create more income at a far faster rate. The problem is, killing mobs requires you to actually play the game. Wierd concept, I know. BW never should have allowed slicing to release as it was. You all obviously have been spoiled by free money for doing nothing and now think you're entitled to it. Edited December 28, 2011 by Mannic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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