Why did Bioware allow others to see the player's achievement?

[Jadescythe]

And "some" is enough since the overall raid community is small enough already. If "some guilds" and "many pugs" would not take new players, how is it not going to be tough for them to fit in?

 

 

How many? Even in 3.0 there were only a fraction of people were doing level 60 HM ops. Now the community is getting even smaller due to no new ops. How "many" are there if we minus the pugs and those guild that does not accept inexperienced players?

 

It only takes one, right? One guild willing to take in someone with minimal experience? Players may not be able to shoot for a HM progression group spot, but joining as a sub or joining a group getting ready for HM is a great option. It will continue to get you experience and let you raid.

[gabigool]

And how did you get your achievement?

 

Not through 3+ hours on an operation that should take 1 hours max (DF / DP)?

 

Probably much more than that.

 

Not through wipe all night long?

 

Of course.

 

Not through paying a 200k repair bill?

 

More than that, certainly.

 

Didn't start as an entitled noob?

 

No. (And that's the part you're missing). We treated hard mode content as a challenge we needed to earn. Not something we were entitled to get carried through.

 

Didn't get frustrating to wipe repeatedly on a "simple" boss that others have killed before?

 

Never crossed my mind what others had done. My team worried about ourselves. We created threads on each boss in our guild forums. We posted videos pointing out what others were doing. I used to watch Fridge's streams as they learned a boss so I understood "why" they tried different things. I made diagrams for positioning and wrote up strats. I even made GIF's for Master Blaster.

 

I recruited members to my team. I worked with them 1:1 when they had mechanics they struggled with. I go through parses. I watch the VoD from my own team later in the week.

 

Maybe I'm a little neurotic, but I do/did it for two reasons.

 

1) I enjoy it.

2) It makes it possible for me to be a part of a team that can kill HM/NM bosses.

 

And while I doubt most players with achievements do all of that, I know most of them do some of that.

 

You seem to want me to be willing to spend my in-game time spending credits wiping for some total stranger who feels they are above doing any of that.

 

Anyone that wants to get involved in group content simply needs to join a group.

[Pagy]

So many many group leaders simply check others' achievement and would not invite him/her if they found out the player didn't have the boss beaten on level. I mean that's simply blocking many people's chance to try and beat the content.

right

 

how is this not a great thing??

[KyaniteD]

And those players didn't wipe with cost of time and credits to learn the content?

 

But this is group content, other players' attitude matters to the community, this isn't solo content.

 

They probably did, maybe they just don't want to do it again? Maybe not for some stranger?

 

What crystallizes from your replies is that your own attitude is not very social or community-friendly, because you do not respect other's wishes. You expect others, strangers, who have no affiliation to you and to whom you don't want to build an affiliation, to use their time and money to accommodate you. (All the while you're not willing to accommodate them, understand their point of view, get prepared however best you can and put some effort into alleviating their concerns. Instead you just attack the rules they have established for themselves, often based on bad experience.)

 

You make assumptions about how others play(ed) the game, about the ease with which they achieved certain goals, about how much time they spent and with whom, and you demand the same for yourself, based on assumptions. With what right? Even if someone had an easier time getting the achievement, that still doesn't entitle you to their time.

 

I find it hard to believe that there isn't any guild on Harb recruiting that's at least doing HM content beyond KP and EV. And sometimes you join a guild and you still have to bide your time for a while, because even in guilds no one is entitled to an ops spot.

[Fleurdelis]

There is no HM ops option in GF. If people only pick those who with achievement, then people who had never done it would have even less chance to do the content.

 

Achievement should not be a tool for people to pick players.

 

Long thread and someone probably stated this already, join a guild and run with guild members. Problem solved.

[hunterlue]

Long thread and someone probably stated this already, join a guild and run with guild members. Problem solved.

 

he wants random strangers to commit their free time so that he can learn the fights because he dont want to find a guild which runs hm ops casually

[Khiriath]

Just look at the progression threads of NIM in 2.0.

 

I did a research before.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=756926

 

The most popular server Harbinger's data, around 25 guild were trying DF and DP NIM in the end of the 2.0 circle, 10 had gone through

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=740378

 

Bastion

 

Most of them were doing 8 men instead of 16 men

 

Let's say there are 150 guilds who were trying them and less than 50 have beaten NIM. So it's around1500- 2000 people and 500 of them have beaten it.

 

http://www.engadget.com/2014/07/18/r...-has-over-770/

 

At that time, SWTOR is the 4th biggest sub based MMO, above ESO, ESO got over 770k subs, SWTOR surely got more, plus the f2p players.

 

Over the 800 K players, 2000 of them have tried it and 500 have beaten it, so it's less than 3% of the entire popluation

 

So pure supposition based on the guilds that felt the need to post on forums... A good number of guilds and raid groups simply don't feel the need to post their progress on forums.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://dulfy.net/2015/03/02/swtor-operation-victory-tournament-canceled/

 

They made it so clear that they got to cancel the tournament.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8060769#edit8060769

So wait. A month into 3.0 launch not enough guilds were clearing TOS yet? That is your proof? <Zorz> wouldn't clear TOS for another month. They canceled the tournament not because of lack of people playing the content. They cancelled it because of the Coratani exploit, that was the Coratani issue they referenced. Then like I said, even the most Hardcore Prog guild that was in game at the time hadn't progressed all the way through TOS so timed runs wouldn't make much of a contest...

 

You are piling on lots of suppositions, with no factual support for your statements.

[robertthebard]

I always find myself wondering: How did those people get the achievement in the first place?

 

Of course, the obvious answer is, they ran the content. It kinda sucks, for some people, that epeen comes before social aspects of the game, but I wonder: How many people posting in this thread that they "don't have the time to waste carrying noobs" are also on here complaining that the game is dead? Correlation, maybe?

[hunterlue]

I always find myself wondering: How did those people get the achievement in the first place?

 

Of course, the obvious answer is, they ran the content. It kinda sucks, for some people, that epeen comes before social aspects of the game, but I wonder: How many people posting in this thread that they "don't have the time to waste carrying noobs" are also on here complaining that the game is dead? Correlation, maybe?

 

why do people want to get carried? you cannot carry someone trough SNV HC the last boss will wipe your *** of,

 

you cant carry someone trough 3rd boss TFB,

 

you cant carry someone trough 2nd boss in DF and so on.

 

I explain those fights 2-3 times a week to friends, i dont want to explain them to random strangers on the other days of the week.

[peter_plankskull]

why do people want to get carried? you cannot carry someone trough SNV HC the last boss will wipe your *** of,

 

you cant carry someone trough 3rd boss TFB,

 

you cant carry someone trough 2nd boss in DF and so on.

 

I explain those fights 2-3 times a week to friends, i dont want to explain them to random strangers on the other days of the week.

Who says anything about carrying? If they have the gear, the rotataion, and the awareness of the mechanics why not let them true?

 

Now we see it... the last statement of your post.... you only want to help your little circle. What if everyone did that now.... how separated would the community and raiding get even more?

[KyaniteD]

I always find myself wondering: How did those people get the achievement in the first place?

 

Of course, the obvious answer is, they ran the content. It kinda sucks, for some people, that epeen comes before social aspects of the game, but I wonder: How many people posting in this thread that they "don't have the time to waste carrying noobs" are also on here complaining that the game is dead? Correlation, maybe?

 

I don't think that asking for certain qualities when pugging HM or even NiM ops is the cause for any perceived "death of the game". That's a bit far-fetched.

[Khiriath]

I always find myself wondering: How did those people get the achievement in the first place?

 

Of course, the obvious answer is, they ran the content. It kinda sucks, for some people, that epeen comes before social aspects of the game, but I wonder: How many people posting in this thread that they "don't have the time to waste carrying noobs" are also on here complaining that the game is dead? Correlation, maybe?

 

Mostly my achievements came from guild runs, where a guild raid leader taught me tactics.

 

Now I am a raid leader in those guilds and have spent up to 5 nights/week teaching new players how to run those same ops. No I don't want to waste my time on someone who wants to be carried. I don't want to waste my time on someone who doesn't want to commit the guild community. When I set up a random pug rug to gear one of my alts or to try and get some missing 224 pieces, I don't want to wipe repeatedly. I want to get the op over in as little time as possible, get the gear and move on, normally because I'll be leading a raid in an hr or so.

[Jadescythe]

Who says anything about carrying? If they have the gear, the rotataion, and the awareness of the mechanics why not let them true?

 

Now we see it... the last statement of your post.... you only want to help your little circle. What if everyone did that now.... how separated would the community and raiding get even more?

 

Perhaps they would prefer the player join their circle? I'm happy to teach PUGs in SM because it is easily cleared by inexperienced players. For HM, the effort and time needed on my side are drastically larger. The odds of clearing even one boss with new players is extremely low. I would only teach a player if they were going to be running with me repeatedly in the future, which is why HM runs are best done in a guild or dedicated group.

[peter_plankskull]

You know im starting to notice a slight pattern here.... a lot of the people who defend the achievement requirements tend to only stick to their little circle of the community. I understand not going full force and giving your heart out to a pug, and treating a friend better, but from what I been noticing a lot of the people been treating Pugs like garbage. Just because I don't have the achievement doesn't mean im asking for a "carry" and just because people do actually have the achievement doesn't mean their qualified for the operation.

[KyaniteD]

Who says anything about carrying? If they have the gear, the rotataion, and the awareness of the mechanics why not let them true?

 

Now we see it... the last statement of your post.... you only want to help your little circle. What if everyone did that now.... how separated would the community and raiding get even more?

 

He actually said he wants to be carried because others have been carried, too.

[casirabit]

Who says anything about carrying? If they have the gear, the rotataion, and the awareness of the mechanics why not let them true?

 

Now we see it... the last statement of your post.... you only want to help your little circle. What if everyone did that now.... how separated would the community and raiding get even more?

 

Which is why I stopped doing operations. I was doing them and then winded up with people who would not even give a person a chance if they had the correct gear, which to me is a bit stupid. If a person has taken the time to get the gear, augment their gear and talk to people about how to do something, they are showing they are willing to learn and listen.

 

I still receive whispers from these people asking me to help heal and my question is are you still not letting new people run operations and when they tell me yes I say thank you but no thank you. When you start letting those that have taken the time to get the gear run some of these I will consider helping heal.

 

Yet I have to wonder yet again if this is not why BW has not done new operations in awhile. Too many come to the forums and state this clearly and therefore they are leaving people out so the operation groups are getting smaller and they look at this and think maybe their time would be better spent in creating something more people will do.

Edited May 2, 2016 by casirabit

[peter_plankskull]

He actually said he wants to be carried because others have been carried, too.

 

Where in Roberts post did he mention he needed to be carried? I apologize if I got it wrong right now, but im going to look back a few pages because I missed a lot.

[Andryah]

So many many group leaders simply check others' achievement and would not invite him/her if they found out the player didn't have the boss beaten on level. I mean that's simply blocking many people's chance to try and beat the content.

 

Could be much worse though. They could have an open API like WoW, where group leaders could give your character a complete internet colonoscopy before even considering letting you ask to join group.

 

Thing is.. when people choose to form groups... they have the right to determine who can and who cannot join their group. In the PuG environment so many players depend on these days... that can suck. But it is what it is.. in all MMOs frankly.

 

Be a group leader and form your own group under your own rules is the best counter measure to this, NOT asking the studio to hide everything about your character.

 

All of this though.. is why I only group with players I know, or guild mates, in MMOs now days. PuGs simply are not worth the drama (on a lot of things, not just achievement checking) IMO.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Andryah

[robertthebard]

You know im starting to notice a slight pattern here.... a lot of the people who defend the achievement requirements tend to only stick to their little circle of the community. I understand not going full force and giving your heart out to a pug, and treating a friend better, but from what I been noticing a lot of the people been treating Pugs like garbage. Just because I don't have the achievement doesn't mean im asking for a "carry" and just because people do actually have the achievement doesn't mean their qualified for the operation.

 

This was my point, and it wasn't really addressed. What it comes down to is "we need a guy, and we'll take anyone, so long as they meet these qualifications". I joined a SM pug that wanted everyone to have NiM gear for it. I dropped. If the GL is that bad, the group isn't going to be worth wasting time on. We had a more lax approach back when we were raiding regularly: If we were short, we'd take anyone that hit the LFM. Amazingly, we didn't have any problems getting completions. Maybe because we just wanted the full 16 people, and were a couple short? Maybe it's because we were good enough that two people wouldn't have sabotaged us?

[Theeko]

Elitism, sums it all up

[Andryah]

This was my point, and it wasn't really addressed. What it comes down to is "we need a guy, and we'll take anyone, so long as they meet these qualifications". I joined a SM pug that wanted everyone to have NiM gear for it. I dropped. If the GL is that bad, the group isn't going to be worth wasting time on. We had a more lax approach back when we were raiding regularly: If we were short, we'd take anyone that hit the LFM. Amazingly, we didn't have any problems getting completions. Maybe because we just wanted the full 16 people, and were a couple short? Maybe it's because we were good enough that two people wouldn't have sabotaged us?

 

Not that I disagree with you on this, but I can understand why group leaders behave this way. Basically, they are not interested in any wipes and simply want a fast "milk run" through the encounter.

 

Not saying this type of group leader approach is right or wrong, just saying I came to understand this behavior several MMOs prior to this one. It is what it is, and has been for years now... across the MMO game spectrum.

 

And I really don't see a studio remedy for this player behavior in MMOs. Hiding data about gear or achievements by the game will simply stifle PuG activity to some degree.. and people already complain there is not enough group activity among the player base.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Andryah

[Slowpokeking]

NO I SEARCHED FOR A FCKING GUILD TO GUIDE ME TROUGH IT(why did you start to type in allcaps btw ***?!?!?), i do not expect random people that dont know me to waste their time trying to teach me stuff.

 

and dont come with your dumb excuse that guilds only take experienced players, that is so blatantly wrong i dont even know what to say anymore

 

Just like in real life im not going to teach a random person asking me if i can show him how to play football to compete in my leauge, there a plenty of clubs (guilds here) that will teach you how to play football.

 

however if that random reallife person is asking me to teach him how to play football for a amount of money worthy my time, i will gladly teach him, because i have something to gain from it.

 

Its the same in this game.

 

Join a guild and they will teach you. dont want to? PAY players to take you into ops and teach you.

 

it is that simple

 

SO YOU ARE STILL BEING CARRIED BY YOUR GUILDIES RIGHT?

 

Seriously, the current status of raid community is bad enough, and you are saying it's not hard to get a group, when a big part of this niche community doesn't accept people?

 

Just look at the recruitment page

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=881327

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=880909

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=881159

 

So many of them want experienced players.

 

If the whole football community is too small and not getting any new tournament, of course it requires change.

[beattlebilly]

You know im starting to notice a slight pattern here.... a lot of the people who defend the achievement requirements tend to only stick to their little circle of the community. I understand not going full force and giving your heart out to a pug, and treating a friend better, but from what I been noticing a lot of the people been treating Pugs like garbage. Just because I don't have the achievement doesn't mean im asking for a "carry" and just because people do actually have the achievement doesn't mean their qualified for the operation.

 

I'm one of those that don't fit into your stereotype of those defending this. Hell, I haven't been in an OPs in years, but I can see the reason why some people will have achievement requirements for the HM OPs they want to do. And not all the HM OPs that are being formed are doing so with the requirement. If a person wants to have as smooth a run as they possibly can and they are taking the time and effort to gather others together to run it, they have every right to place what ever requirements they want on the people they invite into the group. Just as the other people in the game have the ability to do the same thing. If a person doesn't want to run in an HM OPs that has an achievements requirement, then they should look for another group, or form their own.

 

Just because they're defending it doesn't mean they are only sticking to their own little circle of the community. You don't need to be doing something to defend others doing it. I know I've seen some say "If I'm running that kind of OPs....", but that doesn't mean that's the only type of OPs they are going to run.

 

I know I'm not going to jump into a HM OPs group any time soon, and if I ever do decide to do so, I sure as hell am not going to try and get in on one that isn't being formed to teach "noobs" I'll either form my own, or ask around for one.

[Slowpokeking]

Well then, get off your *** and get those new players in the OPs, put forth your effort to help grow the community a bit more. Whining on the forums isn't going to help.

 

What needs to change? The people that want as clean a run as possible are going to exist regardless if we can view and display achievements or not. Blocking the ability to view and display achievements isn't going to solve anything. You know what will? Getting off your *** and encouraging others to group up in learning OPs groups. Throwing fits isn't going to do anything but make matters worse.

 

Why should I do it rather than the experienced ones with guild?

 

Yes, without achievement new players are going to get chances to do it. It's not going to solve the problem entirely, but it's just the first step.

[robertthebard]

Where in Roberts post did he mention he needed to be carried? I apologize if I got it wrong right now, but im going to look back a few pages because I missed a lot.

 

I never did, and I never have been. I think he's referring to the OP there.