Empire`s victory chances (prior KotFE)

[Temeluchus]

Don't move the goal posts. It's entirely accurate to point out that Lakedaimon and Imperial France were not particularly 'successful' at what they tried to do. It's also accurate to point out that most of Lakedaimon's problems, specifically, stemmed from its self-consciously "militaristic" society, and that Imperial France's society, to the extent that it was "militaristic", probably acquired that trait from the same root causes that gave France such severe problems. No one denies that Imperial France was a glorious, but doomed, flame-out.

 

I'm not moving the goalposts, you just are focusing on the tree within the forest. Ultimately, they collapsed yes, but they etched deep gouges into history before doing so. From a pure academeic standpoint as per the original intent, they were real world examples to counter the poster's claim of there being no examples of such. Rome failed, yet everyone lauds it as a shining example of "civilization".

 

I respect your knowledge about history and thus shall agree to disagree.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Temeluchus

[ObiWanBaikonur]

I'm not moving the goalposts, you just are focusing on the tree within the forest. Ultimately, they collapsed yes, but they etched deep gouges into history before doing so. From a pure academeic standpoint as per the original intent, they were real world examples to counter the poster's claim of there being no examples of such. Rome failed, yet everyone lauds it as a shining example of "civilization".

 

I respect your knowledge about history and thus shall agree to disagree.

 

The reason I didn't credit these as being examples of successful militaristic "societies" is because I didn't consider the benchmark to be about making a mark on history.

 

I believe the original assertion to which I responded was that the Empire should have had the upper hand as its "militaristic," "obedient," and "cunning-to-the-core" traits were a stronger foundation than the "corrupt," "bureaucratic," and "pluralistic" Republic. As "militaristic societies," all of the examples you provided either collapsed or were defeated after a short period of glory. This doesn't mean they didn't make an indelible mark on world history or that there isn't something to be admired in their period of glory, but as a benchmark for a "society," it seems like these prime "militaristic" examples do a poor job at creating a sustainable and functional society, either in peace or war.

 

Rome is a much stronger example than Sparta, Napoleonic France, Cromwellian England, or "Russia" and "China," given Rome's prominence and longevity. That said, the adjectives used above to describe the Galactic Republic are perfect fits for Rome, during both the Republic and the Empire: Pluralistic, Bureaucratic, Corrupt.

[Ramalina]

The Sith Empire is fairly bureaucratic and corrupt in its own right. They just tend to prefer payouts in the form of power or blood instead of credits.

 

There are lots of rules in the Empire, but if you can give an answer that someone in power likes when asked, "Well, I suppose I could, but what's in it for me," then those rules effectively do not exist.

 

Given that Imperial corruption tends to result in the deaths of highly capable power-brokers while Republican corruption just winds up changing where the decimal points are placed in bank accounts I think it's hard to say that the Republic has the worse problem with corruption.

 

In terms of bureaucracy, I think that in general Republic side characters tend to have less trouble with it than do the Imperial characters. The smuggler and consular are both good at making bureaucracy work in their favor, the knight seems blissfully ignorant of the existence of bureaucracy, and it mildly annoys the trooper in some cases but for the most part their superiors run interference for them (aside from Elara's romance, but she learned bureau-jujitsu so well in the Empire that the Republic's data-pushers never really stand a chance against her).

 

Bureaucracy is a nightmare for the Imperial agent, a bloody nuisance for the bounty hunter, and only really works for the sith classes when they're right there with lightsaber in hand telling the official, "We can do this my way, or the way that ends with your head in the gutter." Even then, some of the bureaucrats are insubordinate and uncooperative.

 

What militaristic dictatorships do tend to be good at, is gathering a larger proportion of Gross National Product and harnessing it as personal wealth and funding for military capacity and adventures. As a result they tend to punch above their weight when conflicts start because they put a lot of firepower on the credit card. Once things have ground on for a while though, the damage to the overall society undercuts the ability to maintain a high consumption war machine, and things collapse pretty quickly.

 

Fighting and being successful in a war is one thing. Having a durable political and military superpower that in the end wins out is quite another.

 

 

Keep in mind the Sith war effort was something that took them centuries to build up and prepare. The Republic managed to run that military juggernaut into the ground in just under 30 years from a state of low readiness.

 

It didn't help that the Empire had to conquer and then occupy planets, meaning that for every victory they had fewer forces available to try for the next. They simply don't have the available population and industrial base to get much further than they did, and they were horribly over-extended.

 

Compound that with the disaster of Chancellor Janarus being replaced with Saresh, someone who is easily as implacable and driven as Marr or Malgus, and the Empire's strategic liabilities become something that even skilled leadership probably isn't enough to turn around.

 

Plan A for the Empire was, "Quickly conquer the entire galaxy."

 

They didn't have a plan for dealing with running out of military capacity less than half way through Plan A.

 

In strategic terms it's a bit like deciding you should create a plan for landing safely after having jumped out of a flying airplane without a parachute. It's a bit late at that point, and even if you use skydiving technique to glide over a deep lake, slow your terminal velocity a bit, and make a feet first impact at the last second, the odds of survival are still very low. Marr and Malgus are competent, Marr perhaps moreso than Malgus, but they didn't really have much to work with on the grand strategic scale.

[Xilizhra]

Keep in mind the Sith war effort was something that took them centuries to build up and prepare. The Republic managed to run that military juggernaut into the ground in just under 30 years from a state of low readiness.

 

It didn't help that the Empire had to conquer and then occupy planets, meaning that for every victory they had fewer forces available to try for the next. They simply don't have the available population and industrial base to get much further than they did, and they were horribly over-extended.

 

Compound that with the disaster of Chancellor Janarus being replaced with Saresh, someone who is easily as implacable and driven as Marr or Malgus, and the Empire's strategic liabilities become something that even skilled leadership probably isn't enough to turn around.

 

Plan A for the Empire was, "Quickly conquer the entire galaxy."

 

They didn't have a plan for dealing with running out of military capacity less than half way through Plan A.

 

In strategic terms it's a bit like deciding you should create a plan for landing safely after having jumped out of a flying airplane without a parachute. It's a bit late at that point, and even if you use skydiving technique to glide over a deep lake, slow your terminal velocity a bit, and make a feet first impact at the last second, the odds of survival are still very low. Marr and Malgus are competent, Marr perhaps moreso than Malgus, but they didn't really have much to work with on the grand strategic scale.

While the odds of the Empire winning weren't great, it did make some sweeping strategic changes that would have at least improved them. Firstly, incorporating and integrating aliens; it appears that the Cathar and Kaleesh, among others, were inclined to throw in with the Empire over the Republic, and the Empire secured some important boosts in manpower. Secondly, isotope-5 seems to have greatly simplified their energy logistics, and possibly logistics in other fields too; it's kept rather vague, but Darth Marr certainly seems to be relatively hopeful about the Empire's chances at the end of SoR (though the loss of Ziost would be extremely painful).

[Euphrosyne]

While the odds of the Empire winning weren't great, it did make some sweeping strategic changes that would have at least improved them. Firstly, incorporating and integrating aliens; it appears that the Cathar and Kaleesh, among others, were inclined to throw in with the Empire over the Republic, and the Empire secured some important boosts in manpower. Secondly, isotope-5 seems to have greatly simplified their energy logistics, and possibly logistics in other fields too; it's kept rather vague, but Darth Marr certainly seems to be relatively hopeful about the Empire's chances at the end of SoR (though the loss of Ziost would be extremely painful).

Some Cathar and some Kaleesh. Hanthor isn't any more of a stand-in for the entirety of Cathar in the galaxy than Aric Jorgan is.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Euphrosyne

[Xilizhra]

Some Cathar and some Kaleesh. Hanthor isn't any more of a stand-in for the entirety of Cathar in the galaxy than Aric Jorgan is.

Given how blunt Marr was about the Empire's impending defeat in RotHC, I doubt he's intended to be delusional about its improved chances in SoR. I also have heard somewhere, though from an uncertain source, that the majority of Cathar did join the Empire; I can't verify this, but it seemed like the kind of thing that would have helped. Unless, of course, isotope-5 was responsible for the entire turnaround.

[stuffystuffs]

I never heard of the Cathar joining the empire. They don't have a unified governing body so they haven't even technically allied with the Republic. I believe most Cathar formed settlements on Ord Mantell and Taris after being mostly destroyed by the Mandalorians back in the KotOR days. The ones on Taris failed eventually due to the Sith like Malak or the Empire destroying that planet (or stopping it from being un-destroyed). IIRC, on Taris, Imperial players can allow most Cathar settlers to escape or not after killing their leader. I doubt any of them willingly joined up with the Empire.

 

Ones that are allied with the Empire are likely ex-slaves who were able to rise above their station for whatever reason. This would be my Cathar assassin in a nut shell. I think what has changed in the Empire is that they are now desperate enough to allow talented aliens and ex-slaves to serve or join the Sith.

[MayhemofChaonus]

The Sith Empire's biggest weakness is... welll... the Sith. The Empire started the renewed conflict after the 10 or so years of cold war after the Sack of Coruscant in a position of strength. But that strength was eroded due to the infighting brought on by Malgus, Thanaton, and Baras. To make matters worse, there was also the Dread Masters to contend with as they siphoned off badly needed Imperial reserves until they were finally defeated after a time. The Empire managed to stave off defeat in Rise of the Hutt Cartel with the discovery of Isotope 5, but all that did was restore the even balance of power. Now both factions are at the mercy of Zakuul.

 

The history of the old EU, before Disney scrapped it, made it abundantly clear that the Sith Empire falls or is banished again by the Republic, only to be rebuilt again as the Brotherhood of Darkness and then destroyed by Darth Bane. Despite corruption and a multitude of other issues, the Republic survives and endures whereas Sith passions undermine Imperial efficiency and lead to defeat, sadly enough.

 

And yet they always return...like the undead rising from the grave time and time again. I think there is something to be said for that form of persistence.

 

For them working together you are absolutely right. It won't work at all. For each of them each and everyone in particular as a dictator (not the title but the status), I for one belive it would have been worked. Each of them could have taken the Sith Empire focusing on one direction. This is what it takes for the Empire to win. Only one clear path.

 

The Sith Empire was lost the moment Vititate realised this insignificant feuds between the Sith are what is killing the Empire from inside. No wonder he sees the Sith Empire as a defective experiment.

 

The reason why I think the Sith Empire is superior to the Republic is because of its entire design. Militaristic, obeying, and cunning to the core against huge bureaucracy, pluralism and corruption. But its major flaw are the Sith themselfes. Only a strong hand that would put the Sith in order could unleash the Sith Empires full potential. But this can not happen because of the nature of the Sith order.

 

If Vitiate had actually put some effort into leading instead constantly studying or having his fingers in other civilizations throughout the galaxy the Sith Empire might well have succeeded. Hell the one time Vitiate DID focus on the Sith Empire and come up with a clear plan for the Sith to follow, the Empire returned after 300 years in exile, and claimed half the galaxy before storming Coruscant and essentially grabbing the Republic by the balls and squeezing. The Sith could have ended the Republic, and the war right then and there. Instead that piece of **** Revan had to meddle in affairs and influence Vitiate to make a poor decision. If Vitiate had actually tried and given the Empire the time and attention it needed, while continuing to raise Imperial and Sith views of him even further into godhood (the more powerful they believe he is the more they will fear, respect, and obey him without question or thought of rebellion). If even the Sith believed him to be a god, unkillable, invincible, unstoppable, there would've never been any infighting. Have you forgotten he once murdered the entire Dark Council all at once for infighting and disobedience? The only reason the infighting got so bad and crippled the empire so much is because Vitiate didn't care. He was too busy doing other things. If he'd actually put effort in and put his great mind to work the Sith Empire would have won the war long before now, and the Treaty of Coruscant would never have existed.

 

Sparta, Napoleon's French Empire, England with Cromwell as Lord Protector, Russia, China et al would all like a word with you.

 

If you mean SW societies, well there are plenty of examples there too.

 

Hahaha well said!

 

It's also worth noting that even after being taken by surprise, the Republic had successfully fought the Sith Empire to a standstill in the last war, which is partly why the Empire was able to pull off the ruse of negotiating an armistice. The war was at a stalemate.

 

The Empire only won in the end because it pulled off a surprise attack on Coruscant by using a peace treaty as a ruse, and then used the planet as a bargaining chip. I.E, make peace on our terms, or we'll level the place.

 

Incorrect. the war was going badly for the Republic, that's the only reason why they agreed to meet to discuss a treaty in the first place. The Republic won a few battles here and there, but nothing could stop the Empire's rapid advance. Coruscant was meant to be the killing blow. With many of their senators and officials dead. The Jedi Temple and many powerful and important Jedi gone, and Republic morale, both in and out of the military, utterly devastated with the loss of the homeworld, the Republic would be a snake with it's head cut off. Leaderless, directionless, and hopeless. death all but a certainty. If Revan hadn't influenced Vitiate's mind, the Republic would be nothing but a memory.

 

Read your lore.

Edited May 24, 2016 by MayhemofChaonus

[Analyst]

On the question of Imperial Cathar, I would like to remind about Belsavis mission and Prince Shange, who is stated to be an influential figure among his species. So his union with the Empire could have brought more Cathar to the said Empire.

Though I tend to see Cathar as divided species, of course.

[Stultophobe]

There`s one question what has been in my mind for a while and I finally decided to ask your opinions and thoughts about it. It was year ago when I was reading through SWTOR`s Facebook page and one very interesting comment caught my eye: the person said that the Sith Empire could be winning if Darths Marr, Malgus and Jadus would be in charge and the Empire would be rid of all the infighting. I can definetely understand Marr and Malgus but what about Jadus? In Agent`s story he says that he wants to create a new Empire where hatred and fear would be universal to all, not just Sith. He accepts aliens but I still don`t understand how he would be creating a stronger Empire.

 

Your thoughts?

 

Malgus? No. Multiculturalism rots any society with its roots in tradition and nationalism. Jadus? No. Jadus is an ideologue and extreme even by Sith standards. Marr and the Empire's Wrath (Sith Warrior) were the only people holding the Empire together, the game tells you as much. Marr was a true leader and adherent of the Sith Code. With his rationalism, pragmatism and raw power, he embodied the best of Imperial and Sith doctrines and understood the value of unity and tradition.

 

The Empire had already lost by the time Marr had any real influence. I do not think Marr could have defeated the Republic had the Valkorion not invaded, but I do think he could have salvaged what was left of the Empire and, as he put it, "make it survive." Marr would know that he could not outright defeat the Republic (it's an issue of resources at this point), he would likely retreat, reform and reconstitute the Sith. Bear in mind that Supreme Chancellor Saresh is basically repeating the events of the Great Hyperspace War and attempting genocide against the Sith.

[Audoucet]

Malgus? No. Multiculturalism rots any society with its roots in tradition and nationalism.

 

<3 you sir.

[Stultophobe]

<3 you sir.

 

It's just a fact, for whatever facts are worth nowadays.