Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[TUXs]

Yes, that was my point. Yes they could make pvp gear 220 or even 224 rating but that would effectively kill all pve gear progression. Historically it was used as a time sink(since you have a lockout once you kill a boss in an Op) to slow down raid progression. If pvp dropped the same gear all raiders would just farm pvp to get gear and kill all the bosses in the op in the first week.

 

Actually this is what happened with the highlighted hard mode ops. The expertise i believe was copied from WoW(although it probably is called something else there) to both keep the raid progression and at the same time to make sure that raiders don't roflstomp other players in pvp.

Easy to fix. Make PvP gear give PvP only perks, make RAID gear only give RAID perks. They have certain procs that only happen in WZ's/Ops, make the bonuses work similarly.

[PlasmaJohn]

A LOT of truth to this statement I think.

 

I see the rise of MOBAs as a condemnation of gear progression based PvP that MMO designers cling to with a death-grip. In my experience instanced PvP has been far more "group finder" friendly than raids.

 

There is a reason that WoW has consistently slow-walked away from the classic large and difficult raid format.

 

Er, whut? Oh, do you mean reducing team sizes down to the 20-25 man formats? Much higher than that gets really silly. Not having much issue keeping a stable roster for the 20-man team I run with. Otherwise I strongly disagree as they just released two (three?) new raids with Legion, Mythic tier included.

 

And it is the same reason that the great Renaissance in raiding promised by Wildstar fell flat.

 

Wildstar's issues really had nothing to do with raiding and more to do with green development and operational teams and a Customer Service department hellbent on blaming the customers instead of helping them. Even when things worked far too much was and to an extent still is walled off behind an RNG gate.

[IanArgent]

Easy to fix. Make PvP gear give PvP only perks, make RAID gear only give RAID perks. They have certain procs that only happen in WZ's/Ops, make the bonuses work similarly.

 

"Expertise" for raiders, only functions in Ops, move the set bonuses to reaching level cap, and let crafters make BiS-statted items that don't have that additional kick-in for Ops/PvP. Done and dusted.

[Tsetso]

Easy to fix. Make PvP gear give PvP only perks, make RAID gear only give RAID perks. They have certain procs that only happen in WZ's/Ops, make the bonuses work similarly.

 

That would mean they have to change combat to be different in pvp and pve which is a lot harder than just slapping expertise on the pvp gear. Third option is to make pvp gearless as far as stats are concerned - everyone has the same stats.

[TUXs]

That would mean they have to change combat to be different in pvp and pve which is a lot harder than just slapping expertise on the pvp gear. Third option is to make pvp gearless as far as stats are concerned - everyone has the same stats.

No no no...just have the procs, like next HiB is a crit, only proc in an instance (or PvP if that's the bonus set it's on). Let PvP and PvE have their gear progressions, just narrow the gap and make the bonus specific to PvP or PvE, depending on where the piece came from.

[TUXs]

"Expertise" for raiders, only functions in Ops, move the set bonuses to reaching level cap, and let crafters make BiS-statted items that don't have that additional kick-in for Ops/PvP. Done and dusted.

I'd be thrilled with this too.

[IanArgent]

That would mean they have to change combat to be different in pvp and pve which is a lot harder than just slapping expertise on the pvp gear. Third option is to make pvp gearless as far as stats are concerned - everyone has the same stats.

 

Having started dipping my toes in Ops, Ops-level boss combat is hugely different from any single-player gameplay but TEC (and TEC is designed as an intro to Ops-grade play); and even up to story-mode FP play, you can still brute-force most FP bosses that have mechanics. (Can't speak as to HM FP play).

[rklontz]

Er, whut? Oh, do you mean reducing team sizes down to the 20-25 man formats? Much higher than that gets really silly. Not having much issue keeping a stable roster for the 20-man team I run with. Otherwise I strongly disagree as they just released two (three?) new raids with Legion, Mythic tier included.

 

WoW has moved away from the conventional raid format and moved into the less trash more boss short fight format. There current raids have about the same length of time and difficulty as vanilla and BC heroics

The old school 40 man Gruul's raids where a team would spend weeks trying to progress past a boss are gone unfortunately. Players attention spans just aren't there anymore.

[Gguyrules]

why are they mad?

 

simply cause they got nothing better to do with their pathetic lives. They think the devs are going to just roll the red carpet for them,just cause "you" like something,doesn't mean everyone does.

 

example: when the awsome KOTOR 2 ended and the third game was announced to be an mmo (SWTOR) ,people raged. Now that they returned to classic story telling,people are raging because they they want group content (Exact opposite,the hell, folks?)

 

by short: instead of just accepting the game for what it is, or leaving because they are not satisfied...they instead stay and do the most immature thing ever: insult,become trolls and think of any reason to hate on the game (Some people going as far to spam dulfy's website and many others,posting hatefull comments and even trying to get loyal players to leave the game.

 

my suggestion : if you don't like any aspect of the game,your problem,get over it and keep your opinions to yourself.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Gguyrules

[TUXs]

why are they mad?

 

simply cause they got nothing better to do with their pathetic lives. They think the devs are going to just roll the red carpet for them,just cause "you" like something,doesn't mean everyone does.

 

example: when the awsome KOTOR 2 ended and the third game was announced to be an mmo (SWTOR) ,people raged. Now that they returned to classic story telling,people are raging because they they want group content (Exact opposite,the hell, folks?)

 

by short: instead of just accepting the game for what it is, or leaving because they are not satisfied...they instead stay and do the most immature thing ever: insult,become trolls and think of any reason to hate on the game (Some people going as far to spam dulfy's website and many others,posting hatefull comments and even trying to get loyal players to leave the game.

We can love the game and still be honest about its flaws...you should try it.

[Tsillah]

my suggestion : if you don't like any aspect of the game,your problem,get over it and keep your opinions to yourself.

 

my suggestion: if you don't like people having an opinion, don't come to a forum.

 

Honestly, nothing is perfect and criticism is needed to keep a high standard. Sure, some of it is not constructive but a company can't make a game that people like if they don't know what people like and dislike.

 

Really, there is nothing gained by complaining about people complaining.

 

A forum is about opinions. This should not be a revelation.

[Andryah]

WoW has moved away from the conventional raid format and moved into the less trash more boss short fight format. There current raids have about the same length of time and difficulty as vanilla and BC heroics

The old school 40 man Gruul's raids where a team would spend weeks trying to progress past a boss are gone unfortunately. Players attention spans just aren't there anymore.

 

Exactly.

 

Blizzard saw the handwriting on the wall years ago and has been evolving their raid formats to be easier and more straightforward over time. There will always be some taste for raids in MMOs, but it's a fraction of the total player base, and most are not interested in going back 10 years in raid style and format.

 

The fact that the Wildstar team focused heavily on end game "old school WoW style" raid formats was just absurd.. and the paying customer base has validated the foolishness of this approach. Happily, with it's failure, I don't think we will see a repeated attempt in the market along those lines.

[Andryah]

my suggestion: if you don't like people having an opinion, don't come to a forum.

 

Honestly, nothing is perfect and criticism is needed to keep a high standard. Sure, some of it is not constructive but a company can't make a game that people like if they don't know what people like and dislike.

 

Really, there is nothing gained by complaining about people complaining.

 

A forum is about opinions. This should not be a revelation.

 

Wait.. so his opinion is not welcome, but those he opines against is OK? That makes no sense at all. Like you said.. it's a gaming forum.. there is nothing here but opinions. Some people present them as "fact", but they remain opinions.... by ALL of us.

 

I agree that little or nothing is gained in complaining about people complaining... but sometimes the complaints are so selfish or delusional as to warrant counter complaint. As long as counter-complaint is point-by-point rather then just a drive by personal attack ... I don't see the real issue.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Andryah

[myrdinn]

I'm 99.999 (repeating) % convinced that this story line will end up with Empy V - the Space Smoke Monster Magnanimous -as a boss a la Terror From Beyond. If that is the end of KoTET (which I doubt), or the end of KotKoSM (Knights of the Killing of the Smoke Monster) followup to KoTET, that's the raid that will end off the whole KoTFE/KoTET line.

 

Somewhere, somewhen, gotta kill ol' smokey. I figure his three defeated kids will be the bosses (thinking some sort of Incarnate forms of Zakuulian Lore or some such) with Senya giving a soliloquy at the end.

 

I also figure KoTET will probably have a raid or two in it.

[TUXs]

my suggestion: if you don't like people having an opinion, don't come to a forum.

 

Honestly, nothing is perfect and criticism is needed to keep a high standard. Sure, some of it is not constructive but a company can't make a game that people like if they don't know what people like and dislike.

 

Really, there is nothing gained by complaining about people complaining.

 

A forum is about opinions. This should not be a revelation.

EXACTLY! Embrace the opinions and accept that we all have our own ideas...that's the BEST part of a forum.

[IanArgent]

I will say this - the raiders got the short end of the content stick this expansion cycle; I don't blame them for being a little salty. And for all my vigorous posting about how set-bonus shouldn't be an Op-only thing, that's specifically a disagreement with the degisn team about a specific implementation wart on the carrot for the gear-grind treadmill. I'd much rather they just either got rid of set bonus or rolled it into class progression. Among other things, so they can clear the field and give Ops gear something that's actually meaningful for running ops, the way that Expertise is meaningful for playing PvP.

[myrdinn]

I will say this - the raiders got the short end of the content stick this expansion cycle; I don't blame them for being a little salty. And for all my vigorous posting about how set-bonus shouldn't be an Op-only thing, that's specifically a disagreement with the degisn team about a specific implementation wart on the carrot for the gear-grind treadmill. I'd much rather they just either got rid of set bonus or rolled it into class progression. Among other things, so they can clear the field and give Ops gear something that's actually meaningful for running ops, the way that Expertise is meaningful for playing PvP.

 

...a Prowess score?

[IanArgent]

...a Prowess score?

 

It's 2016 - they could do "Ops-only" temporary abilities, whose power scales with the "level" of Ops gear obtained. Or they could take the easy way out and do what you suggest.

 

But I think it's fairly obvious that the current mindset is to start to differentiate SWTOR from "that other MMO." Hence the coyness around the "new group content." I expect it's not going to be classic-raid-style; and I further expect there will be at least as much ballyhoo and brouhaha and Forum PvP involved as there was with Level Sync; only longer and louder. I hope it'll end the way the noise about level sync did, with most people coming to accept it on its own merits; but I can't say I expect that to happen.

[IanArgent]

EXACTLY! Embrace the opinions and accept that we all have our own ideas...that's the BEST part of a forum.

 

Preach it, brother TUXs.

[DarthWoad]

t. As long as counter-complaint is point-by-point rather then just a drive by personal attack ... I don't see the real issue.

 

You mean personal attacks like this one about some guy who hoards items?

 

This is a player specific issue (and yes it will vary by player), which likely carries over from real life to some extent..

 

Yeah, whatever you say Andryah.

Edited September 6, 2016 by DarthWoad

[TUXs]

You mean personal attacks like this one about some guy who hoards items?

 

Yeah, whatever you say Andryah.

Gotta love hypocrisy

[gabigool]

It's 2016 - they could do "Ops-only" temporary abilities, whose power scales with the "level" of Ops gear obtained. Or they could take the easy way out and do what you suggest.

 

But I think it's fairly obvious that the current mindset is to start to differentiate SWTOR from "that other MMO." Hence the coyness around the "new group content." I expect it's not going to be classic-raid-style; and I further expect there will be at least as much ballyhoo and brouhaha and Forum PvP involved as there was with Level Sync; only longer and louder. I hope it'll end the way the noise about level sync did, with most people coming to accept it on its own merits; but I can't say I expect that to happen.

 

I have a feeling it's going to be some sort of Horde Mode encounter type, similar to ME3 multiplayer. That seems to be the sort of thing they'd push out.

 

If it does not have an 8-man mode though, I am willing to wager the forum PvP won't last very long at all.

[gabigool]

Blizzard saw the handwriting on the wall years ago and has been evolving their raid formats to be easier and more straightforward over time. There will always be some taste for raids in MMOs, but it's a fraction of the total player base, and most are not interested in going back 10 years in raid style and format.

 

While technically "fraction" is the appropriate word, as it's less than the entirety, the usage in the sentence is a bit misleading. The stats I've seen for 2015 was that ~50% of players had kills in LFR. 20% had normal mode kills. those don't quite align with how you'r portraying it.

 

Is there an appetite for 40 (even 20) man raiding anymore? I agree, not so much. It's not so much the raiding itself but the organizing that has soured most people I know. Flex Raiding was a huge boon for WoW and even with the 8-man structure in swtor there have been days I wish it existed here.

 

But what I think is lost sometimes on these boards is just how far away from "raiding" (spoken in the tone of voice that makes people know the speaker is thinking about vanilla WoW) what we had here was. No attunement. Simple alt gearing. Small, easy to manage team sizes. It was far more casual friendly than even WoW.

 

I strongly believe two things:

 

1) Raiding is not as "dead" as the KotFE crowd would have us believe, there is certainly an appetite for it.

 

and

 

2) Had this studio even mildly supported its Operations content, there could have been a sizable community for it here.

 

The fact that the Wildstar team focused heavily on end game "old school WoW style" raid formats was just absurd.. and the paying customer base has validated the foolishness of this approach. Happily, with it's failure, I don't think we will see a repeated attempt in the market along those lines.

 

I definitely agree with the last sentence. But with Wildstar I think it was an error of degree and execution.

 

I think to say it failed simply because it was a old-school raid-focused game is not quite fair. There were a lot of things wrong - objectively from a quality standpoint but also, IMO, for focusing on the wrong aspects of raiding. No flex. Limited powersets combined with mechanics that further cramped those sets. A really... unique... combat model.

 

People wanted to raid, not log in and fight over the last two roster spots or sit around because only 36 people were on. And the attunement structure was idiotic. I know a lot of people who really wanted to like that game but were disappointed in the product that was ultimately released.

 

I think had W* been a bit more solidly coded, and went for an old-school "feel" but didn't ignore the amenities that have emerged over the past decade, it might have had a chance.

 

It's an interesting case study IMO.

[Tanitha]

why are they mad?

 

simply cause they got nothing better to do with their pathetic lives. They think the devs are going to just roll the red carpet for them,just cause "you" like something,doesn't mean everyone does.

 

No, you are wrong. We are mad because we have been promised ops for a long time now, and we aren't getting any new content. how many times can I go through EV/KP? Or S&V? I have cleared almost all HM content and a portion of NiM content. And frankly, when you're playing a long time, have done a lot of things, a lot of times, you need something new. And by something new, I don't mean the KOTFE stupid chapters once per month. What did they actually give us with KOTFE? Just a stupid chapter per month? And an alliance alert mission? Oh goody, 30 mins gameplay... And then? What? Do heroics for the 100th time? Do the same old ops you have cleared again and again for the 100th time? Where is real content in SWTOR lately?

 

And now they are going to put some stuff in Eternal Championship, so we grind for a few days, especially those of us who have 10+ toons, get everything in a week... if it's worth it that is. Because if it's as ugly as the HK helmet, not going to bother.

 

by short: instead of just accepting the game for what it is, or leaving because they are not satisfied...they instead stay and do the most immature thing ever: insult,become trolls and think of any reason to hate on the game (Some people going as far to spam dulfy's website and many others,posting hatefull comments and even trying to get loyal players to leave the game.

 

I never insulted anyone, nor trolled. And I have not seen many people troll these posts. And really other sites don't much matter, we are talking here.

 

my suggestion : if you don't like any aspect of the game,your problem,get over it and keep your opinions to yourself.

 

Well, this is a public forum, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I like the game. I don't like the way it's going and as a long time player, I should speak my mind. If we don't say what we think it's wrong, nothing is going to change.

 

As for differentiating the ops gear from non-ops gear: no, and again no. If I want to play PvP I have to get my PvP gear on, if I have to play PvE/ops I change to my best gear. So, you want each class to have 3 sets of gear now: one for PvP, one for ops and one for PvE? I like how the game has the gear and that you can use ops gear in all aspects of PvE so, wouldn't change that. Does it make a difference in heroics and stuff? If you know how to play your class, it does a little. Otherwise you are just wasting those extra powers or crits you get.

 

The raiding community in SWTOR is shrinking, not because it is non-existent, but because there is no new content, we can do. I know a lot of raiders who have left the game, and would re-sub and come back if there was some real raiding content. And if no new raids will be forthcoming with next expansion, along with more content, then SWTOR will probably die. A stupid chapter and an alliance alert mission per month that you can do in 30 minutes is not enough.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Tanitha

[IanArgent]

I have a feeling it's going to be some sort of Horde Mode encounter type, similar to ME3 multiplayer. That seems to be the sort of thing they'd push out.

 

If it does not have an 8-man mode though, I am willing to wager the forum PvP won't last very long at all.

 

I'm guessing, something like TEC, only tuned to 4- and higher teams. Almost all bosses, very little trash, and the trash there is will be mechanically "interesting" a la the trash in Kaon Under Siege, or the sections with the Arms Dealers in the latter parts of SnV. At the same time, I expect them to be "role-loose," especially in the "story mode." There's a couple of different ways they could do this with just the tools we've seen. I look forward to seeing ow they actually do it. But I also look forward to seeing how they add large-group-format encounters. Or, as you said, there won't be much Forum PvP at all.

 

While technically "fraction" is the appropriate word, as it's less than the entirety, the usage in the sentence is a bit misleading. The stats I've seen for 2015 was that ~50% of players had kills in LFR. 20% had normal mode kills. those don't quite align with how you'r portraying it.

 

Is there an appetite for 40 (even 20) man raiding anymore? I agree, not so much. It's not so much the raiding itself but the organizing that has soured most people I know. Flex Raiding was a huge boon for WoW and even with the 8-man structure in swtor there have been days I wish it existed here.

 

But what I think is lost sometimes on these boards is just how far away from "raiding" (spoken in the tone of voice that makes people know the speaker is thinking about vanilla WoW) what we had here was. No attunement. Simple alt gearing. Small, easy to manage team sizes. It was far more casual friendly than even WoW.

 

I strongly believe two things:

 

1) Raiding is not as "dead" as the KotFE crowd would have us believe, there is certainly an appetite for it.

 

and

 

2) Had this studio even mildly supported its Operations content, there could have been a sizable community for it here.

 

My belief is that the studio did decide to support the (future of the) Ops community at the expense of (immediate) Ops content, and some damage to the existing Ops community. They built TEC, as an explicity "gateway" into mechanical-difficulty content, and without the outdated-paradigm baggage that the TFPs have. The TFPs are stupidly tedious right now, relics of the old, time-wasting game design paradigm. And, that goes as well for the ash and trash of most Ops, based on what I've read at Dulfy. If the ash and trash isn't even worth a mention in the strategy guide, why put it in? It's just wasting time. Which was a design goal in and of itself 4+ years ago, and based on some of the less-well-designed elements of KotFE, they can't entirely shake it, but they seem to be getting better.

 

Anyway, the TEC bosses do a much better job of giving players a "taste" of what Ops bosses are like, and how much fun that kind of content can be, without costing them the time investment of dealing with the ash and trash of intermediary mobs in FPs and the outrageous amount of hitpoints for their threat level that TFP bosses have.

(Having just run through a mess of TFPs for DvL, I have a dim view of the tedium vs reward of them. A whole lot of deliberately wasted time).