Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[IanArgent]

You cant force people,absolutely. But why not go the carrot path and reward tanks more? Throw more coms,or a unique armor for X operations as tank,and q times are solved. Trinity adds fun factor ,removing the trinity causes

 

the red bolded underlined et ctr bit.

 

Because you're still limited to q number of ops groups active at a time equal to half the number of tanks or healers in the queue, whichever is smaller. lf changing roles was as easy as changing stance, and didn't require regearing and changing powers via field respect if your class can even respec into the needed role...

In the end, hard trinity requirement forces someone to play a role they don't want to, whether by carrot or stick.

Edited April 20, 2016 by IanArgent

[Slowpokeking]

As much as they'll play through the 1-50 content, yeah. Ops it's even easier, since you can play them "out of order" and the rewards are all relevant no matter what order you play them in. The only argument you've made about ops that won't be played is that people only play the oldest ops content in preference because it's easier. Which is at cross-purposes to claiming that new players won't play the old content.

 

New players will play all the content, eventually.

 

But ops requires 8 people to do it. We are not talking about "easy ones" but the hard ones which requires weeks or even months of practice. New players usually tend to do look at the channel to see what group content are people doing then try to group with them. Sure they will raise interest of the old content, but making it stay at the old difficulty is going to let them give up since it's hard to find group and spend effort in them. Even in current state, most of the HM/NIM ask for achievement, they don't carry newbies.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[DisIzMe]

Because it's going to be unfair to other classes?

 

I don't think spending so much time to find a tank or got to endure some of them ragequit/dc which we need to stop at the middle of the ops to ask for another one is fun at all. If the Trinity adds fun factor, why didn't most of the players want to play two of the roles?

 

Unfair?!?

Do all get similar fair loot in the ops? No. Can you get good group or group full of sentinel tanks? Yes. Is life fair in general? No. Can all roll tank and get better rewards? Yes.

Is it fun to "spend so much time to find a tank or got to endure some of them ragequit/dc which we need to stop at the middle of the ops to ask for another one"? No.

So another unfair thing in the ops run which will solve all the tank rarity issues (besides lowering tanks quality,but given nerfs to story modes its not that big an impact now anyway) is something lots of people will gladly accept.

As for why people do not play those roles despite the fun,we are talking about pug groups. You will see lots of tanks and healers running only with people they know ,not because operations and mechanics as trinity are not fun,but because those are less stressful and easier with people you know. Added rewards will draw them from comfort zone and will ease the stress of dealing with pug sentinels with defense gear that charge first and then blame tanks and healers for perishing in seconds.

For an example, I got kicked on TOS pug story mode as a healer because boss kept enraging. Most of my characters are healers,i like healing pugs cause even EV story can suddenly be fun again, but i can see how some people after experiencing the same will say no to healing pugs again.

Add reward,bring them back into the circle.

[Slowpokeking]

Because you're still limited to q number of ops groups active at a time equal to half the number of tanks or healers in the queue, whichever is smaller. lf changing roles was as easy as changing stance, and didn't require regearing and changing powers via field respect if your class can even respec into the needed role...

In the end, hard trinity requirement forces someone to play a role they don't want to, whether by carrot or stick.

 

Also in most of the situations, tanks and healers are the more stressful roles than the DPS. Especially when there is hard DPS check but no hard requirement for a tank swap, the team usually switch to single tank to increase DPS.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[DisIzMe]

Because you're still limited to q number of ops groups active at a time equal to half the number of tanks or healers in the queue, whichever is smaller. lf changing roles was as easy as changing stance, and didn't require regearing and changing powers via field respect if your class can even respec into the needed role...

In the end, hard trinity requirement forces someone to play a role they don't want to, whether by carrot or stick.

 

The thing is,most players in swtor have different characters ,with different classes and roles. Better reward to tanks,more people will q on their tanks instead of their dps characters.

Logout and login takes only a minute.

[Slowpokeking]

Unfair?!?

Do all get similar fair loot in the ops? No. Can you get good group or group full of sentinel tanks? Yes. Is life fair in general? No. Can all roll tank and get better rewards? Yes.

Is it fun to "spend so much time to find a tank or got to endure some of them ragequit/dc which we need to stop at the middle of the ops to ask for another one"? No.

So another unfair thing in the ops run which will solve all the tank rarity issues (besides lowering tanks quality,but given nerfs to story modes its not that big an impact now anyway) is something lots of people will gladly accept.

As for why people do not play those roles despite the fun,we are talking about pug groups. You will see lots of tanks and healers running only with people they know ,not because operations and mechanics as trinity are not fun,but because those are less stressful and easier with people you know. Added rewards will draw them from comfort zone and will ease the stress of dealing with pug sentinels with defense gear that charge first and then blame tanks and healers for perishing in seconds.

For an example, I got kicked on TOS pug story mode as a healer because boss kept enraging. Most of my characters are healers,i like healing pugs cause even EV story can suddenly be fun again, but i can see how some people after experiencing the same will say no to healing pugs again.

Add reward,bring them back into the circle.

Actually yes, every class have the same chance to win the loot, if you change it. It's going to become unfair.

 

But there are far many more DPS classes in every guilds. Why didn't the DPS have the same problem of being "stressful"? What you've said could happen to any class, but why aren't we short of DPS in most of the situation? Didn't that proved that the tanks are more stressful and hard to play, and more decisive than the DPS in most of the encounters?

[Slowpokeking]

The thing is,most players in swtor have different characters ,with different classes and roles. Better reward to tanks,more people will q on their tanks instead of their dps characters.

Logout and login takes only a minute.

 

But many of them don't have tanks, I've asked many times during pugs. Also even if they have, many of their tanks aren't geared or experienced enough to carry on. This is the problem of the trinity.

[IanArgent]

But ops requires 8 people to do it. We are not talking about "easy ones" but the hard ones which requires weeks or even months of practice. New players usually tend to do look at the channel to see what group content are people doing then try to group with them. Sure they will raise interest of the old content, but making it stay at the old difficulty is going to let them give up since it's hard to find group and spend effort in them. Even in current state, most of the HM/NIM ask for achievement, they don't carry newbies.

 

Fix story mode first, then worry about hard mode

[IanArgent]

The thing is,most players in swtor have different characters ,with different classes and roles. Better reward to tanks,more people will q on their tanks instead of their dps characters.

Logout and login takes only a minute.

 

You're still making You're still making someone play a character they didn't want to play right then. Even assuming they have a geared character of that role and faction. For the longest time I had 2 endgame DPS and one healer, no tank at all. Or how about the player with only one character, a gunslinger? They can't play ops?

[DisIzMe]

Actually yes, every class have the same chance to win the loot, if you change it. It's going to become unfair.

 

But there are far many more DPS classes in every guilds. Why didn't the DPS have the same problem of being "stressful"? What you've said could happen to any class, but why aren't we short of DPS in most of the situation? Didn't that proved that the tanks are more stressful and hard to play, and more decisive than the DPS in most of the encounters?

Well,yeah tanks are more demanding role then dps. This does not mean it is not fun. And guess what ,guilds can have overabundance of healers or tanks. It is the pug groups that are mainly having the problem ,because stress comes not from trinity demands,but from having to rely on random people you do not know.

Adding reward specifically to tanks may seem unfair to to other classes but it will reduce the q waiting times and allow people to actually get the chance to get their own loot from an ops instead of being in q or spamming fleet for decades.

Removing trinity will remove the fun ,while remaining with the stress. Try to run Blood Hunt tactical with 4 dps,you will see what i am talking about.

[IanArgent]

Well,yeah tanks are more demanding role then dps. This does not mean it is not fun. And guess what ,guilds can have overabundance of healers or tanks. It is the pug groups that are mainly having the problem ,because stress comes not from trinity demands,but from having to rely on random people you do not know.

Adding reward specifically to tanks may seem unfair to to other classes but it will reduce the q waiting times and allow people to actually get the chance to get their own loot from an ops instead of being in q or spamming fleet for decades.

Removing trinity will remove the fun ,while remaining with the stress. Try to run Blood Hunt tactical with 4 dps,you will see what i am talking about.

 

Blood Hunt might be a tad overtuned. How about looking at something that isn't a cpntender for Hardest FlashpointIn The Game, like Rakata Prime?

[DisIzMe]

You're still making You're still making someone play a character they didn't want to play right then. Even assuming they have a geared character of that role and faction. For the longest time I had 2 endgame DPS and one healer, no tank at all. Or how about the player with only one character, a gunslinger? They can't play ops?

Nobody is forcing anyone. Thats the beauty in suggesting a reward for doing something needed by others in the community. For an example,that poor guy with single gunslinger character that cant find an ops because there are no tanks will be first to benefit of it.

Do you know how many veteran players with literally maxed out character server numbers there are? And most of them do not join pug groups because they can easily find their own groups with their guildies.

If a reward is good/cool enough it will bring their tanks characters back to the people,so to speak. The gunslinger will gain from it.

[DisIzMe]

Blood Hunt might be a tad overtuned. How about looking at something that isn't a cpntender for Hardest FlashpointIn The Game, like Rakata Prime?

But here is the thing. For something to be fun in combat based game it should be challenging. Blood Hunt is the only really challenging tactical i know and it is NOT fun. Developers simply can't fine tune tactical which can be potentially run even by 4 healers or 4 tanks of variable levels as well as you can fine-tune content for trinity end game group.

[Slowpokeking]

Well,yeah tanks are more demanding role then dps. This does not mean it is not fun. And guess what ,guilds can have overabundance of healers or tanks. It is the pug groups that are mainly having the problem ,because stress comes not from trinity demands,but from having to rely on random people you do not know.

Adding reward specifically to tanks may seem unfair to to other classes but it will reduce the q waiting times and allow people to actually get the chance to get their own loot from an ops instead of being in q or spamming fleet for decades.

Removing trinity will remove the fun ,while remaining with the stress. Try to run Blood Hunt tactical with 4 dps,you will see what i am talking about.

 

A group only need 2 tanks and it's still much harder to find than DPS. Why didn't the DPS class have this problem? Actually we've met such situation for many times. The group is fine, just nobody got a tank to switch so we were forced to use a fake tank to queue or single tank through the ops. Most of the pugs aren't THAT BAD when we are talking about SM or EV HM. If the tanks aren't even willing to group to with non guild groups, doesn't it proved that playing tank is not fun most of the time?

 

Why should it be unfair? The other people spend the same time and effort. Why not adjust the trinity condition? Fun? Again, if trinity is fun, why it's so hard to find tanks(sometimes healers) to play? Because people don't think play these two roles are fun.

[Slowpokeking]

But here is the thing. For something to be fun in combat based game it should be challenging. Blood Hunt is the only really challenging tactical i know and it is NOT fun. Developers simply can't fine tune tactical which can be potentially run even by 4 healers or 4 tanks of variable levels as well as you can fine-tune content for trinity end game group.

 

From the numbers of tanks/healers. Looks like to many people, it's fun to play DPS and the group got tanks/healers, but not fun to play tanks/healers themselves.

[IanArgent]

Nobody is forcing anyone. Thats the beauty in suggesting a reward for doing something needed by others in the community. For an example,that poor guy with single gunslinger character that cant find an ops because there are no tanks will be first to benefit of it.

Do you know how many veteran players with literally maxed out character server numbers there are? And most of them do not join pug groups because they can easily find their own groups with their guildies.

If a reward is good/cool enough it will bring their tanks characters back to the people,so to speak. The gunslinger will gain from it.

 

You don't have to have 2 tanks and 2 healers in an 8 man ops team? That's news to me. So, someone's got to run a tank.

 

And increasing rewards for rare roles is never going to come out exactly right; it'll end up either not being enough, or being too much. the "sweet spot" is too small to hit and stay on. Don't we have enough balance problems already without adding another one that must be constantly monitored?

[DisIzMe]

A group only need 2 tanks and it's still much harder to find than DPS. Why didn't the DPS class have this problem? Actually we've met such situation for many times. The group is fine, just nobody got a tank to switch so we were forced to use a fake tank to queue or single tank through the ops. Most of the pugs aren't THAT BAD when we are talking about SM or EV HM. If the tanks aren't even willing to group to with non guild groups, doesn't it proved that playing tank is not fun most of the time?

 

Why should it be unfair? The other people spend the same time and effort. Why not adjust the trinity condition? Fun? Again, if trinity is fun, why it's so hard to find tanks(sometimes healers) to play? Because people don't think play these two roles are fun.

We are running in circles here. At least lets do it in orderly manner,then.

Lets discuss benefit vs apparent fairness.

Better rewards for tanks - more tanks available. More tanks available - more people that do not have tanks or do not like tanking can run the operations on their dps characters while waiting less for a group. I hope we agree on this.

The more operations people can run on their dps characters - the more loot they can get. Hope no arguement here,too.

The less time people wait to get a group - the more other things they can do in game and in RL.

So more shiny stuff to tanks will translate to potentially more shiny stuff to dps. May not be fair,but surely is mutually beneficial.

 

Now lets discuss stress of roles.

Tanks and healers have bigger responsibility in operations? True,in most cases. Bigger responsibility does not directly translates to more stress and less fun,however. Some people love to tank. I love to heal. Prefer healing to dpsing,actually. Some people,believe it or not,prefer tanking to dpsing.

When healing (or tanking) becomes less fun and more stress in group content? When people make mistakes or social atmosphere is toxic. Especially both at the same time. This is why guilds rarely have tank/healers problems, ops leader can lower chance of mistakes even from new players and social factor in guild run is an opposite of toxic. Pugs usually lf2T on fleet. Because people with more demanding roles prefer not to risk turning their fun to stress due to relying on strangers.

 

Finally issue of trinity or lack of it and fun.

While it is hard to define fun,different people have fun doing different stuff,in group content involving combat fun usually comes from overcoming the challenge together. If the challenge is overwhelming,its no fun. If the challenge is non existing - it is no fun either.

Developers are responsible for finding the perfect zone where content is challenging but doable for a specific target audience. It is relatively easy to do when roles of group are pre-defined like it is in trinity,and It is impossible to find that zone if target audience is a big unknown. Of course ,you can argue that by removing the roles completely and having only,say, the dps players doing the content will make it possible and potentially even easier but it will make fights less complex be default and less complex ---> less "group factor" appeal. Why you need to run around waving lightsaber with another 7 same role individuals if you can do exactly the same thing alone,without any need to compete for loot.

Of course,good combat and level designers can increase complexity even for same role-group by different puzzles and traps that need to be overcome as a team, but it is more work then simply fine tune boss to trinity. And given the speed with which SWTOR ops team,if it even still exists, produces content, i would not build on complex designs for single role group as a possibility.

[DisIzMe]

You don't have to have 2 tanks and 2 healers in an 8 man ops team? That's news to me. So, someone's got to run a tank.

 

And increasing rewards for rare roles is never going to come out exactly right; it'll end up either not being enough, or being too much. the "sweet spot" is too small to hit and stay on. Don't we have enough balance problems already without adding another one that must be constantly monitored?

I do not understand why magic number 2 is the problem. You make running ops on tank more appealing - you have more tanks available,be it 2 ,3,4,5,9999 tanks needed for a group.

As for sweet spot as a reward and the issue of balance,creating a title or giving old armor set items for running x operations, or simply giving 30% more coms per run is not a nuclear science or game-breaking issue. Just needs a bit of imagination and famous Bioware data gathering tools.

[Renata_Roselli]

As you can clearly see, adding no new raids crippled the game. A lot of people left the game after KoTFE. You can continuously see the two biggest servers slowly decrease in population. There is no top tier guilds left. They all left and the players who stayed joined other guilds that will never and can never compete on the level of the top tier guilds that are gone. It's really not hard to comprehend that not adding new endgame raiding content crippled the games endgame experience. It crippled the population and it crippled new comers from playing the game. No one wants to come to a game that dishes out rehashed old content. They did that with Destiny and look at it now. It's dead. They can't even pull in new customers.

[Slowpokeking]

We are running in circles here. At least lets do it in orderly manner,then.

Lets discuss benefit vs apparent fairness.

Better rewards for tanks - more tanks available. More tanks available - more people that do not have tanks or do not like tanking can run the operations on their dps characters while waiting less for a group. I hope we agree on this.

The more operations people can run on their dps characters - the more loot they can get. Hope no arguement here,too.

The less time people wait to get a group - the more other things they can do in game and in RL.

So more shiny stuff to tanks will translate to potentially more shiny stuff to dps. May not be fair,but surely is mutually beneficial.

 

Now lets discuss stress of roles.

Tanks and healers have bigger responsibility in operations? True,in most cases. Bigger responsibility does not directly translates to more stress and less fun,however. Some people love to tank. I love to heal. Prefer healing to dpsing,actually. Some people,believe it or not,prefer tanking to dpsing.

When healing (or tanking) becomes less fun and more stress in group content? When people make mistakes or social atmosphere is toxic. Especially both at the same time. This is why guilds rarely have tank/healers problems, ops leader can lower chance of mistakes even from new players and social factor in guild run is an opposite of toxic. Pugs usually lf2T on fleet. Because people with more demanding roles prefer not to risk turning their fun to stress due to relying on strangers.

 

Finally issue of trinity or lack of it and fun.

While it is hard to define fun,different people have fun doing different stuff,in group content involving combat fun usually comes from overcoming the challenge together. If the challenge is overwhelming,its no fun. If the challenge is non existing - it is no fun either.

Developers are responsible for finding the perfect zone where content is challenging but doable for a specific target audience. It is relatively easy to do when roles of group are pre-defined like it is in trinity,and It is impossible to find that zone if target audience is a big unknown. Of course ,you can argue that by removing the roles completely and having only,say, the dps players doing the content will make it possible and potentially even easier but it will make fights less complex be default and less complex ---> less "group factor" appeal. Why you need to run around waving lightsaber with another 7 same role individuals if you can do exactly the same thing alone,without any need to compete for loot.

Of course,good combat and level designers can increase complexity even for same role-group by different puzzles and traps that need to be overcome as a team, but it is more work then simply fine tune boss to trinity. And given the speed with which SWTOR ops team,if it even still exists, produces content, i would not build on complex designs for single role group as a possibility.

No, because it's against the basic rule of the game. It's still forcing people to play what they don't want to play.

 

Yeah some people, but we still lack of tanks and healers which means more people don't find them fun, it's fun and only fun among non-pugs? Then you proved that the role is not fun usually since most of the ops run are pug groups now.

 

Actually the difficulty should meet its position. The problem is that most of the people don't find playing a tank is fun, it's only fun when they are playing DPS in a good group.

[Toraak]

A group only need 2 tanks and it's still much harder to find than DPS. Why didn't the DPS class have this problem? Actually we've met such situation for many times. The group is fine, just nobody got a tank to switch so we were forced to use a fake tank to queue or single tank through the ops. Most of the pugs aren't THAT BAD when we are talking about SM or EV HM. If the tanks aren't even willing to group to with non guild groups, doesn't it proved that playing tank is not fun most of the time?

 

Why should it be unfair? The other people spend the same time and effort. Why not adjust the trinity condition? Fun? Again, if trinity is fun, why it's so hard to find tanks(sometimes healers) to play? Because people don't think play these two roles are fun.

 

Not necessarily. What it means is, that either the people that enjoy tanking are also not willing to waste their time doing it on their tank character in a pug. This can be because of the skill level of most pugs these days, or they are saving their tank character for guild groups. either way. it just means they don't pug them out they use them for the guild.

[Slowpokeking]

Not necessarily. What it means is, that either the people that enjoy tanking are also not willing to waste their time doing it on their tank character in a pug. This can be because of the skill level of most pugs these days, or they are saving their tank character for guild groups. either way. it just means they don't pug them out they use them for the guild.

 

Why didn't it happen to the DPS? If that's true, then it proved that the tanks are not fun to play other than running with guild, which is not a big percent of the raid groups now..

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It could be easily adjusted, like some of mechanics won't target companions like Soa's Lightning Ball/OP IX' deletion. Have you ever played GW1? The hero/henchman won't be targeted for certain boss skills for the sake of difficulty.

 

Nobody forces you to use them, it just gives us option. What's going to matter if you don't use them?

 

Because adjusting mechanics takes dev time etc. to get right ... I would prefer it spent on actual new content instead of this stupid rehashed concept you have of operations needing to be back to their original level and what not.

[Slowpokeking]

Because adjusting mechanics takes dev time etc. to get right ... I would prefer it spent on actual new content instead of this stupid rehashed concept you have of operations needing to be back to their original level and what not.

 

It cost much less effort than designing new content.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It cost much less effort than designing new content.

 

Much less effort for practically zero payoff ... it's not going to bring people running back to the game or keep them playing much longer because you are talking about a help for when people are a player or 2 short, nut running the entire operation solo or with a friend ( which will never happen ).