Why are people still mad about no new raids?

[IanArgent]

The whole reason to do group OPs, or raids, historically, is to get the BiS gear. That is why people want to do it. It seems this is an issue with some "story" people, so they try their best to destroy anything related to OPs because either their personality, or lack of initiative prevents them from accomplishing a very easy goal.

 

If you removed the benefits of endgame gear, outside of OPs, you would in effect kill operations. And that is EXACTLY what they want.

 

So you need a shiny carrot to raid- that says a lot about how 'fun' raiding really is, doesn't it? As for 'BiS', the gear would still be the best- for raiding, which is all you need it for in the first place (although I don't see why if it's such a 'very easy goal').

 

The whole "gear-grind" treadmill irks me; for a number of reasons. First, of course, is that your character's power is, in large measure, a factor of their gear.

 

That having been said, the main thing that irks me about "ops gear" is the set bonuses. Class powers are balanced against the set bonus, but unless you're already raiding, or are will to eat a stat penalty (and spend time grinding PvP), you don't hav eth ebonus. And the bonuses are not a matter of "bigger numbers," they affect the timing of your rotations, or in some cases the availability of powers. (One specific complaint I had was obviated by 4.0; but prior to 4.0, the Guardian/Juggernaut had that minimum range of 30 M on their saber throw, which meant unless they were building force/rage at a slower rate than someone who did ops. Thankfully they changed that with 4.0, but there are stiill less egregious issues with the set bonus interactions with powers). I have no problem with Ops gear having bigger and better stats than non-ops gear; but tuning class powers to work with gear that a fraction of the active playerbase will ever encounter?

[masterceil]

I have no problem with Ops gear having bigger and better stats than non-ops gear; but tuning class powers to work with gear that a fraction of the active playerbase will ever encounter?

 

Maybe it's BioWare's way to entice people to take on an interest in operations and warzones. I, for one, have zero problem with that.

 

If you're not doing ops or wzs, you really don't need the (extremely minor) tweaks to your abilities acquired with set bonuses.

[CorellianWannabe]

Maybe it's BioWare's way to entice people to take on an interest in operations and warzones. I, for one, have zero problem with that.

 

If you're not doing ops or wzs, you really don't need the (extremely minor) tweaks to your abilities acquired with set bonuses.

 

So therefore those tweaks should not apply outside of those environments. Sounds like everyone wins.

[Dewlmenow]

So therefore those tweaks should not apply outside of those environments. Sounds like everyone wins.

 

Uhh, how does reducing the already limited interest in raiding (due to BW not producing any content in an absurd length of time) mean everybody wins? Give something else that will provide interest or go away.

[CorellianWannabe]

Uhh, how does reducing the already limited interest in raiding (due to BW not producing any content in an absurd length of time) mean everybody wins? Give something else that will provide interest or go away.

 

All right, everybody wins except the raiders who only raid for gear that

1) helps them steamroll through every other area of the game (except pvp) even faster, despite clearly not needing it for such content

2) makes them 'feel special' when they stand on the fleet with their shiny gear (although the cartel market has taken a large bite out of that particular carrot)

 

Why shouldn't soloers/flashpoint runners get gear with comparable stats/set bonuses if they complete tasks of comparable difficulty? Solo Eternal Championship gives worse rewards than a player can buy from crystals earned through heroics/story missions, and they certainly don't have any set bonuses attached. Are none of those fights comparable in difficulty to raid bosses, taking into account the larger group?

 

Is it because raiders feel they deserve it due to factors not related to the raid at all like guild drama or the logistics of getting more players to actually coordinate?

 

Again, if raiders want to raid, give them gear for raiding, not gear for raiding AND every other type of content. PvPers seem to do just fine with gear designed to be used for their playstyle- if anything they seem to prefer it (and berate those who have no expertise on their gear in the warzone).

 

If raiders want the challenge, the type of gear shouldn't matter. If they only want the gear, then give the non-raiders an opportunity to earn gear of comparable value, not poorly itemized purple gear at a lower tier.

Edited September 3, 2016 by CorellianWannabe

[masterceil]

Again, if raiders want to raid, give them gear for raiding, not gear for raiding AND every other type of content. PvPers seem to do just fine with gear designed to be used for their playstyle- if anything they seem to prefer it (and berate those who have no expertise on their gear in the warzone).

 

Personally, I'd be fine with an Operations' implementation of Expertise. And with particularly challenging single-player missions giving set pieces (not BiS, but 208-216 rating), e.g. Solo Star Fortresses giving a token for a 208 set piece if you clear it without the Alliance buffs (basically getting more out of such a run than the 'One For All' achievement). Clearing Solo The Eternal Championship could give a 216 token.

 

I've also long thought the rewards for Hard Mode Flashpoints are seriously undertuned, and wouldn't be opposed to those granting 208 set pieces. Unlike my ideas for SF/TEC, however, I'd like to see this game type become a proper stepping stone into Operations, and grant the 'Expertise' bonus suggested above. Use your 208 Ops gear to get through the SM Operations and start getting 216s from those bosses, then get your 220s from HMs, and finally get the BiS gear as a reward for participating in the pinnacle of group content, Nightmare Mode Operations.

 

TL;DR: Set pieces for difficult single player achievements, sure. Operations-style 'Expertise', sure. Single-player acquisition of BiS gear? No.

[Bobs_YourUncle]

What's with all the talk of raid gear only being available in raids? Who cares if Johnny raider is doing the story in raid gear? It's not like you can't do it easily with 190s. I mean, just why?

[Bobs_YourUncle]

All right, everybody wins except the raiders who only raid for gear that

1) helps them steamroll through every other area of the game (except pvp) even faster, despite clearly not needing it for such content

2) makes them 'feel special' when they stand on the fleet with their shiny gear (although the cartel market has taken a large bite out of that particular carrot)

 

Why shouldn't soloers/flashpoint runners get gear with comparable stats/set bonuses if they complete tasks of comparable difficulty? Solo Eternal Championship gives worse rewards than a player can buy from crystals earned through heroics/story missions, and they certainly don't have any set bonuses attached. Are none of those fights comparable in difficulty to raid bosses, taking into account the larger group?

 

Is it because raiders feel they deserve it due to factors not related to the raid at all like guild drama or the logistics of getting more players to actually coordinate?

 

Again, if raiders want to raid, give them gear for raiding, not gear for raiding AND every other type of content. PvPers seem to do just fine with gear designed to be used for their playstyle- if anything they seem to prefer it (and berate those who have no expertise on their gear in the warzone).

 

If raiders want the challenge, the type of gear shouldn't matter. If they only want the gear, then give the non-raiders an opportunity to earn gear of comparable value, not poorly itemized purple gear at a lower tier.

 

You must be being facetious. Pvp gear is usable in every other aspect of the game. It's all I gear up with now. I believe its better than 216s even. Everything is steamrolly now. Go steamroll those heroics and tactical, gear up with the crystals and steamroll through just as much as those with raidgear can.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Bobs_YourUncle

[Shwarzchild]

All right, everybody wins except the raiders who only raid for gear that

1) helps them steamroll through every other area of the game (except pvp) even faster, despite clearly not needing it for such content

2) makes them 'feel special' when they stand on the fleet with their shiny gear (although the cartel market has taken a large bite out of that particular carrot)

 

Why shouldn't soloers/flashpoint runners get gear with comparable stats/set bonuses if they complete tasks of comparable difficulty? Solo Eternal Championship gives worse rewards than a player can buy from crystals earned through heroics/story missions, and they certainly don't have any set bonuses attached. Are none of those fights comparable in difficulty to raid bosses, taking into account the larger group?

 

Is it because raiders feel they deserve it due to factors not related to the raid at all like guild drama or the logistics of getting more players to actually coordinate?

 

Again, if raiders want to raid, give them gear for raiding, not gear for raiding AND every other type of content. PvPers seem to do just fine with gear designed to be used for their playstyle- if anything they seem to prefer it (and berate those who have no expertise on their gear in the warzone).

 

If raiders want the challenge, the type of gear shouldn't matter. If they only want the gear, then give the non-raiders an opportunity to earn gear of comparable value, not poorly itemized purple gear at a lower tier.

 

This is a completely wrong post. Set bonus gear IS gear for raiding in the same vein as PvP gear IS gear for pvping. Both of which are completely viable for ALL content present in the game that's outside of their designated content "type". Moreover, if you walk into pvp with 224 gear you will get destroyed by the person who is in full 208 pvp gear. You will melt like paper. It's why people yell at those who don't come into a pvp instance with the required lower limit of expertise.

 

Your other sentence of "comparable difficulty" isn't correct either. Flashpoints/ Heroics/ Eternal Championship/ Star Fortresses are not of comparable difficulty to operations (concession for story mode operations, but absolutely not even remotely close to the difficulty presented to the groups of players who do hardmode or nightmare.) This conclusion is not a random opinion of mine, it's based on mathematical analysis of what's demanded as baseline minimum performance levels as constructed by Bioware. Furthermore, a player can steam roll all content in this game (excluding pvp, and above story move operations), in every level of crystal gear which seemingly negates your notion that it's not possible to complete without having "raiding gear".

 

Frankly, you have zero understanding of how the content is designed in this game, and are shooting from the hip for whatever reason which makes your opinions invalid regardless of any actual take away points that could be legitimate.

[UberSamoyed]

Flawlessly executing PVE content is like a great guitar solo. Flawlessly executing a Nim raid is like a transcendent symphony. Both are music...and one can appreciate both equally. But, one is far harder to pull off than another...even if you label both "difficult."

 

And that's assuming one agrees the difficulty is the same...which I don't. But, I'm just trying to point out that one cannot reasonably minimize the group aspect when comparing difficulty between solo and group content...specifically Nim raiding.

Edited September 3, 2016 by UberSamoyed

[CorellianWannabe]

This is a completely wrong post. Set bonus gear IS gear for raiding in the same vein as PvP gear IS gear for pvping. Both of which are completely viable for ALL content present in the game that's outside of their designated content "type". Moreover, if you walk into pvp with 224 gear you will get destroyed by the person who is in full 208 pvp gear. You will melt like paper. It's why people yell at those who don't come into a pvp instance with the required lower limit of expertise.

 

Your other sentence of "comparable difficulty" isn't correct either. Flashpoints/ Heroics/ Eternal Championship/ Star Fortresses are not of comparable difficulty to operations (concession for story mode operations, but absolutely not even remotely close to the difficulty presented to the groups of players who do hardmode or nightmare.) This conclusion is not a random opinion of mine, it's based on mathematical analysis of what's demanded as baseline minimum performance levels as constructed by Bioware. Furthermore, a player can steam roll all content in this game (excluding pvp, and above story move operations), in every level of crystal gear which seemingly negates your notion that it's not possible to complete without having "raiding gear".

 

Frankly, you have zero understanding of how the content is designed in this game, and are shooting from the hip for whatever reason which makes your opinions invalid regardless of any actual take away points that could be legitimate.

 

Let's unpack your oh-so wise post.

 

"Set bonus gear IS gear for raiding in the same vein as PvP gear IS gear for pvping. Both of which are completely viable for ALL content present in the game that's outside of their designated content "type"."

 

"Moreover, if you walk into pvp with 224 gear you will get destroyed by the person who is in full 208 pvp gear. You will melt like paper. It's why people yell at those who don't come into a pvp instance with the required lower limit of expertise."

 

I see a contradiction there.

 

 

 

"Your other sentence of "comparable difficulty" isn't correct either. Flashpoints/ Heroics/ Eternal Championship/ Star Fortresses are not of comparable difficulty to operations (concession for story mode operations, but absolutely not even remotely close to the difficulty presented to the groups of players who do hardmode or nightmare.) This conclusion is not a random opinion of mine, it's based on mathematical analysis of what's demanded as baseline minimum performance levels as constructed by Bioware. Furthermore, a player can steam roll all content in this game (excluding pvp, and above story move operations), in every level of crystal gear which seemingly negates your notion that it's not possible to complete without having "raiding gear". "

 

So according to EA raid-quality gear isn't needed for that content (the same company BTW that nerfs and buffs with the thought patterns of a schizophrenic). It logically follows that raid-quality gear shouldn't function in that environment. Why does raid gear need to work for flashpoints if they can be steamrolled anyway? So raiders can feel special for killing the boss a few seconds faster?

[Tsetso]

 

So according to EA raid-quality gear isn't needed for that content (the same company BTW that nerfs and buffs with the thought patterns of a schizophrenic). It logically follows that raid-quality gear shouldn't function in that environment. Why does raid gear need to work for flashpoints if they can be steamrolled anyway? So raiders can feel special for killing the boss a few seconds faster?

 

You seem to be missing the point. There are 2 types of gear - pvp and pve. And pvp gear has been created precisely because BW didn't want raiders to roflstomp people who don't raid in pvp. True, they could have created just 1 type of gear which drops both from pvp and pve. That however would be a terrible idea because normally each next boss is harder than the previous so that the developers have time to create the new raid before the previous is cleared and if the same gear dropped in pvp then raiders would farm pvp and clear the raid in 1 week.

 

So expertise mostly works fine for the purpose of not giving advantage to raiders in pvp, while still preserving gear progression in raids. Now, about making the token gear dropping in ops to works only in ops. I don't care really, because when i'm not raiding i'm always wearing pvp set(which btw is a lot more unbalanced in open world pvp), but what would be the purpose of such change? Because mobs in fps feel it's not fair for raiders to rape them? No sane company will waste resources developing something without a reason.

[gabigool]

Why shouldn't soloers/flashpoint runners get gear with comparable stats/set bonuses if they complete tasks of comparable difficulty?

 

Well, I suppose you could make the argument that HHM, and EV/KP's inclusion into that model, has changed the paradigm, but prior to that there was nothing even remotely in the same universe difficulty-wise in the solo game to any encounter in which BiS gear could be obtained.

 

Are none of those fights comparable in difficulty to raid bosses, taking into account the larger group?

 

Raid bosses that historically dropped the equivalent of today's 224 gear? No. Not even close. Obviously KP/EV has broken that, but to suggest any encounter in Eternal Championship approaches the difficulty of at-level NM content is ridiculous.

[Nempo]

Frankly if raiders want a challenge...we need to go back to the days of specialized stat sucking resistance to "x" stat being added to gear. You lack the resistance? you die, horribly fast.

 

Basically you farm the first boss with current gear...just to get 208 gear that is stated like 190 gear the rest of the missing stats goes into a resistance for the raid. You beat nim? You are running around with 224 gear stated like 208 gear with all those missing stat points allocated tot he resistance stat.

New raid comes out? New resistance specially built for it, time to grind from the bottom up again.

 

After all you all claim you do it for the challenge, needing gear that is "BIS" or miles above the regular FP gear stat wise shouldn't matter.

 

Yes, that means the 208+ crystal gear and the like is actually BETTER than your raid gear in all around. When you gear up for a raid...your overall stats will actually go DOWN but because of your resistance stat being so important you will survive while the person wearing old 224 gear drops like a wet paper bag.

 

The more raiders try and defend their high stat gear, the more I laugh. As you only prove that you only do it for the gear. I PvP...I'm perfectly happy removing stats from all gear and just normalizing everything the second you step into a warzone. I PvP for the fun, the challenge....gear simply adds a treadmill to it all that is boring.

[gabigool]

That having been said, the main thing that irks me about "ops gear" is the set bonuses. Class powers are balanced against the set bonus, but unless you're already raiding, or are will to eat a stat penalty (and spend time grinding PvP), you don't hav eth ebonus. And the bonuses are not a matter of "bigger numbers," they affect the timing of your rotations, or in some cases the availability of powers. (One specific complaint I had was obviated by 4.0; but prior to 4.0, the Guardian/Juggernaut had that minimum range of 30 M on their saber throw, which meant unless they were building force/rage at a slower rate than someone who did ops. Thankfully they changed that with 4.0, but there are stiill less egregious issues with the set bonus interactions with powers). I have no problem with Ops gear having bigger and better stats than non-ops gear; but tuning class powers to work with gear that a fraction of the active playerbase will ever encounter?

 

A) You used to be able to get set bonus gear in Flashpoints. It was a good model. But unneeded in today's game.

 

B) Set bonuses are literally unnecessary outside of higher difficulty raid content. With the possible exception of Master Blaster, every HM Operation can be done in 208 coms gear. And I'd wager a better group than mine could probably even do that. Set bonuses are not going to make an average player better. Set bonuses are going to make a very good player get a marginal increase in performance which is only required in harder raids. They are for optimizing. Content that can be killed with nothing but auto attack and a companion does not require that sort of optimizing.

 

Typical set bonuses are things like 1 free crit per minute or 2% DR. What content exists in this game for the solo player where that stuff matters? Nothing.

[gabigool]

Frankly if raiders want a challenge...we need to go back to the days of specialized stat sucking resistance to "x" stat being added to gear. You lack the resistance? you die, horribly fast.

 

Basically you farm the first boss with current gear...just to get 208 gear that is stated like 190 gear the rest of the missing stats goes into a resistance for the raid. You beat nim? You are running around with 224 gear stated like 208 gear with all those missing stat points allocated tot he resistance stat.

New raid comes out? New resistance specially built for it, time to grind from the bottom up again.

 

After all you all claim you do it for the challenge, needing gear that is "BIS" or miles above the regular FP gear stat wise shouldn't matter.

 

Yes, that means the 208+ crystal gear and the like is actually BETTER than your raid gear in all around. When you gear up for a raid...your overall stats will actually go DOWN but because of your resistance stat being so important you will survive while the person wearing old 224 gear drops like a wet paper bag.

 

The more raiders try and defend their high stat gear, the more I laugh. As you only prove that you only do it for the gear. I PvP...I'm perfectly happy removing stats from all gear and just normalizing everything the second you step into a warzone. I PvP for the fun, the challenge....gear simply adds a treadmill to it all that is boring.

 

So you are saying that a group would need to kill the first boss 8 times before moving on to the second boss, which would need to be killed 8 times before the third boss..... gotcha. No, seriously, you just wrecked us with that one.

[Tsetso]

A) You used to be able to get set bonus gear in Flashpoints. It was a good model. But unneeded in today's game.

 

B) Set bonuses are literally unnecessary outside of higher difficulty raid content. With the possible exception of Master Blaster, every HM Operation can be done in 208 coms gear. And I'd wager a better group than mine could probably even do that. Set bonuses are not going to make an average player better. Set bonuses are going to make a very good player get a marginal increase in performance which is only required in harder raids. They are for optimizing. Content that can be killed with nothing but auto attack and a companion does not require that sort of optimizing.

 

Typical set bonuses are things like 1 free crit per minute or 2% DR. What content exists in this game for the solo player where that stuff matters? Nothing.

 

Well, tbh the 4 piece bonuses of most sets reduce the energy costs and some cooldowns so it does change the rotation but this is only relevant in long fights(read raid bosses) or parsing.

[Nempo]

So you are saying that a group would need to kill the first boss 8 times before moving on to the second boss, which would need to be killed 8 times before the third boss..... gotcha. No, seriously, you just wrecked us with that one.

 

Funny, that is exactly how raiding got started. In the raid the starter gear would drop (you could sell it to other people) so you could quickly get a set of starter gear just running the trash mobs. The first boss would drop a piece to your first set above the starter set, so on and so forth.

The original raiders loved it. Odd how this new breed blanches at the very idea of grinding out on hard/difficult content.

 

Course back then devs actively tried to kill us in a near merciless manner in raids so it would take several wipes just to get the first boss mechanics down outside of the random element that is rather devoid in modern raids. Apparently modern raiders can't stomach truly hard bosses with unpredictable abilities that ignored aggro and could just screw you over if you couldn't improvise on the fly. You know, back when 2.5 second cast time heals were considered fast and cleansing abilities were far and few between...and those that had them had to cast them?

Our modern raiders are pampered princesses by comparison.

[Tsetso]

Funny, that is exactly how raiding got started. In the raid the starter gear would drop (you could sell it to other people) so you could quickly get a set of starter gear just running the trash mobs. The first boss would drop a piece to your first set above the starter set, so on and so forth.

The original raiders loved it. Odd how this new breed blanches at the very idea of grinding out on hard/difficult content.

 

Course back then devs actively tried to kill us in a near merciless manner in raids so it would take several wipes just to get the first boss mechanics down outside of the random element that is rather devoid in modern raids. Apparently modern raiders can't stomach truly hard bosses with unpredictable abilities that ignored aggro and could just screw you over if you couldn't improvise on the fly. You know, back when 2.5 second cast time heals were considered fast and cleansing abilities were far and few between...and those that had them had to cast them?

Our modern raiders are pampered princesses by comparison.

 

The purpose of that time sink was to keep people occupied so that they have time to make new raids. And we had it here too. Back when tfb nim came i remember a thread saying that it's "mathematically impossible" to kill kel'sara before enrage. At that point however all of this would be meaningless since they don't even pretend that they are going to make new raids.

[Shwarzchild]

Let's unpack your oh-so wise post.

 

"Set bonus gear IS gear for raiding in the same vein as PvP gear IS gear for pvping. Both of which are completely viable for ALL content present in the game that's outside of their designated content "type"."

 

"Moreover, if you walk into pvp with 224 gear you will get destroyed by the person who is in full 208 pvp gear. You will melt like paper. It's why people yell at those who don't come into a pvp instance with the required lower limit of expertise."

 

I see a contradiction there.

 

 

The reason I threw the 224 gear in pvp sentence was a direct response to your potential assertion that 224 gear is viable within pvp. Maybe wrong part of the paragraph to put it in, and maybe not enough of a description of why I said it potentially. Regardless, your posts clearly highlight your thought process that raiding gear shouldnt function outside of raids since raiders shouldnt have gear that works for raids and all other content. But, the contradiction is that you're totally ok with pvp gear being used in pvp while also functioning in the same capacity as the criticized raiding gear you speak of outside of pvp. That's where the contradiction rests

 

"Your other sentence of "comparable difficulty" isn't correct either. Flashpoints/ Heroics/ Eternal Championship/ Star Fortresses are not of comparable difficulty to operations (concession for story mode operations, but absolutely not even remotely close to the difficulty presented to the groups of players who do hardmode or nightmare.) This conclusion is not a random opinion of mine, it's based on mathematical analysis of what's demanded as baseline minimum performance levels as constructed by Bioware. Furthermore, a player can steam roll all content in this game (excluding pvp, and above story move operations), in every level of crystal gear which seemingly negates your notion that it's not possible to complete without having "raiding gear". "

 

So according to EA raid-quality gear isn't needed for that content (the same company BTW that nerfs and buffs with the thought patterns of a schizophrenic). It logically follows that raid-quality gear shouldn't function in that environment. Why does raid gear need to work for flashpoints if they can be steamrolled anyway? So raiders can feel special for killing the boss a few seconds faster?

 

Pvp gear again works the same way as raid gear within flashpoints, heroics, star fortresses, story missions, etc. But pvp gear used within other areas of the game is ok to you. There's a disconnect there. It does not "logically follow". You "jump to your unsupported anti raider opinion built up over misunderstandings".

 

 

 

I just wanted to add in a final statement, if you want to compare difficulty. Go take the health of a flashpoint boss and add together any additional adds that spawn to that. Do that for star fortress last bosses. Do that for eternal championship bosses. Then, test how long it takes the boss to enrage. Convert that to seconds, and divide health by your now in seconds time to kill. Do that for raid bosses. That should answer your difficulty questions.

 

 

Also: what makes raiders feel special? For me its titles and mounts. I could care less how long it takes the boss to die so long as they die and we clear the fights.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Shwarzchild

[lightSaberAddiCt]

What's with all the talk of raid gear only being available in raids? Who cares if Johnny raider is doing the story in raid gear? It's not like you can't do it easily with 190s. I mean, just why?

 

He is just on a little rant because of a discussion between alunafox and myself. He is just trying to get people worked up, honestly I wouldn't take it seriously. This all started because Luna stated she didnt have a problem with solo ops not giving gear, she wanted to experience the story, and he has been on a rant since.

 

He knows wolo OPs will never happen, he knows they are not going to change assembled gear stats, he just want sto have a go at everyone, and see who he can work up.

[Transcendent]

He knows wolo OPs will never happen

 

Wait, so with my 234545 companions I now have, I can't take 15 of them into an op with me and set what roles they are? Dang!

[Tsetso]

Wait, so with my 234545 companions I now have, I can't take 15 of them into an op with me and set what roles they are? Dang!

 

Just imagine the whining there would be because not everyone has 7 50 influence companions and how influence should be nerfed.

[Transcendent]

Or that companions still stand in stupid!

[AnisaBadgett]

This is what I get for staying out of the forums for a few days.

 

Please tell me the BioWare Customer Experience Enhancement Unit gives out Ribbons for "BEST TROLL THREAD EVAR."