if you just gonna leave the flashpoint cause of non spacebarers

[TX_Angel]

Okay... that's, good? I'm not seeing fully how it relates to what I had to say as I'm pretty much on-board with the notion of communication and consideration for others in the group. I was pointing out to the other dude that despite being a 'new' player, I don't presume to receive special privileges in group content. If they're cool with me watching the scenes, great. If the majority would rather I spacebar through it, fair enough.

 

And I've never set foot in HM nor will I as I don't really care.

 

Sorry, couldn't really figure out if you were disagreeing with my comment or supporting it in some way.

 

Meh, I don't know either, perhaps I was mumbling... something about the kids getting off my lawn or something...

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Again, congrats on being anti-social and a reason for the falling population. You do well making the game die faster.

 

 

Anti-social behaviours are "age- inappropriate" actions that harm or lack consideration for the well-being of others. Many people also label behaviour which is deemed contrary to prevailing norms for social conduct as anti-social behaviour.

 

hate to break it to you, but when you have a lack of consideration for others, or contrary to social conduct (IGNORING THE CHOICE OF THE REST OF THE GROUP) you are the one being antisocial. If your going to use a word, know what it means.

Edited April 8, 2016 by lightSaberAddiCt

[Aeristash]

Actually if you know how to control your comp, they are very capable in HM FPs. Myself and a guildy 2 man the HM FPs when bored, me tank, him healer and 2 dps comps. It takes longer but it is a fun challenge.

 

But if everyone starts the FP (HM) usually everyone says hi, and I ask if it is ok if we space. 9 out of 10 times people are cool with it, but if someone wants to just prove a point and not space, then basically I say something in chat about us agreeing to space, after that if it continues, then I give the group a choice, kick the person watching, or I can take off and they can find a new tank (and good luck with that in GF lol).

 

That is LITERALLY why they made solo versions of FPs which I myself do every once in a while when I feel like watching them.

 

lol I admit that I never would've thought that the person requesting the speed run would be the first threatening to willingly leave. And the tank to boot... Talk about putting the group between a rock and a hard place >_<. I don't envy those that have face that decision. I supposed that's a surefire way to get your point across, assuming one is a crucial class like a tank or heal.

[Aeneas_Falco]

Anti-social behaviours are "age- inappropriate" actions that harm or lack consideration for the well-being of others. Many people also label behaviour which is deemed contrary to prevailing norms for social conduct as anti-social behaviour.

 

hate to break it to you, but when you have a lack of consideration for others, or contrary to social conduct (IGNORING THE CHOICE OF THE REST OF THE GROUP) you are the one being antisocial. If your going to use a word, know what it means.

 

That is assuming that the group worked out before hand that it was going to be a spacebar run. That almost never happens. Usually when spacebar is mentioned in a flashpoint it is somewhere midway through it, during cutscene dialogue, when someone starts rudely demanding that other players skip. That is antisocial behavior from entitled brats.

 

I do agree though that if the group works out in the beginning whether to skip or not skip, and it's three votes to one in favor of skipping, the player who wants to watch them should either drop out and find another group or go with the flow. It would be antisocial to stick around but then not skip anyway. Midway through the flashpoint however is too late to work out whether you're skipping, and there is never a time where it is okay to be rude about it or delivered like it is a command.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Aeneas_Falco

[psandak]

Konichi Wa

 

Nice transliteration (the spelling of a word using a different language's alphabet)...

 

こんにちは is Japanese for hello

 

Honest question: does SWTOR have the capability to translate into non-latin alphabet languages? If not, then all those players have to at least know their ABCs to chat at all, and I have a hard time believing that a player of an MMO would NEVER want to chat with anyone.

Edited April 9, 2016 by psandak

[Aeristash]

Nice transliteration (the spelling of a word using a different language's alphabet)...

 

こんにちは is Japanese for hello

 

Honest question: does SWTOR have the capability to translate into non-latin alphabet languages? If not, then all those players have to at least know their ABCs to chat at all, and I have a hard time believing that a player of an MMO would NEVER want to chat with anyone.

 

Mmm well actually Romaji is the 4th Japanese writing system, which incorporates the English alphabet to write out words & phrases phonetically.

[LordGermanicuss]

That's going a bit far IMO. You're now attacking an entire nationality based on a difference of opinion and approach with a few.

 

I didn't say all Americans, but many think of nothing outside their country. To be more specific I suppose I should have said "It seems many Americans"

[Seireeni]

That is assuming that the group worked out before hand that it was going to be a spacebar run. That almost never happens. Usually when spacebar is mentioned in a flashpoint it is somewhere midway through it, during cutscene dialogue, when someone starts rudely demanding that other players skip. That is antisocial behavior from entitled brats.

 

I do agree though that if the group works out in the beginning whether to skip or not skip, and it's three votes to one in favor of skipping, the player who wants to watch them should either drop out and find another group or go with the flow. It would be antisocial to stick around but then not skip anyway. Midway through the flashpoint however is too late to work out whether you're skipping, and there is never a time where it is okay to be rude about it or delivered like it is a command.

 

Though I won't start calling people brats or antisocial, it is most certainly rude to assume that everyone always wants to skip the cutscenes and, only when noticing that x amount of people in the group is not skipping, start to demand that everyone skip them. Not to mention that the argueing that often ensues takes as long as the cutscene (assuming it's one of those fps that don't have many), so you don't actually win anything by doing that. Instead of wasting your time watching cutscenes, you wasted your time argueing in the chat while the cutscene was rolling and possibly even after that.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Seireeni

[Newyankalt]

I didn't say all Americans, but many think of nothing outside their country. To be more specific I suppose I should have said "It seems many Americans"

 

And how exactly is that such a bad thing? Are you telling me that non Americans do not think only about themselves first?

[Newyankalt]

Again, congrats on being anti-social and a reason for the falling population. You do well making the game die faster.

 

This game is hardly social anymore with KOTFE... The population isn't falling due to the game being "anti-social". It's falling dur to Biowares approach at the game.

 

 

I personally don't want to watch the same cutscenes I have seen dozens of times again as well but I am willing to do it in most circumstances. The exception being Black Talon/ Esseles, those just take too long and there's a solo mode if you want to watch the story;

[TX_Angel]

This game is hardly social anymore with KOTFE... The population isn't falling due to the game being "anti-social". It's falling dur to Biowares approach at the game.

 

And we have a winner...

 

The game is the way it is due to Bioware, not the players. The existing Flashpoints are old, the multiplayer content is old, a lot of players have done them all to death.

 

With nothing new to do, the two choices are run the same old stuff, or leave.

 

Those who wish to leave do so, those who don't, run the old stuff, but have zero interest in watching it again.

 

If you're a "new player" to a 4 year old MMO that hasn't had new content in awhile, you perhaps should expect a lot of players to be well seasoned and want to speed run stuff. Perhaps it is on the new players to seek out like minded people to run old content as if it were new.

 

Why should the people who have been here 4 years have to slow down for someone who showed up 2 months ago? It really should be the other way around.

 

---

 

The above of course is beside the point, the fault is with Bioware/EA on no new MMO content and KotFE being a solo game.

[IanArgent]

Why should the people who have been here 4 years have to slow down for someone who showed up 2 months ago? It really should be the other way around.

 

Because the game needs new players to continue to thrive.

[Aeristash]

Because the game needs new players to continue to thrive.

 

^ This. It's because we've been here for so long that we should be understanding and helpful to those just starting out. A veteran of 4+ years, who has seen every piece of cinematic & dialogue, should want someone who has just joined to have that same privilege in the hopes that they'll stay and increase the community. Using new players as tools for speed runs and disregarding their enjoyment factor isn't nice in the least.

[xkcurtisx]

you people are overcomplicating things.

No matter who said what above it still should be like this:

 

Tactical and Solo modes is where you should watch your stories. This is also where you should go if you have yet to complete a said flashpoint before.

 

As for Hardmode its for getting things done fast collecting your commendations and other spoils, story watching has no place here. If you want your story do it in the above mentioned modes where tripling the time of the flasjpoint doesn't make much of a difference.

[JennyFlynn]

I don't understand why some people so easily leave common courtesy and decency behind the moment they launch their game. Sentences such as;

 

- "Hey guys, I'd hoped to get a quick run in before work, does anyone mind space-barring through the cutscenes?"

or

- "Hey guys I'm new to this FP, is it alright if I watch the full scenes?"

 

.. should receive equal consideration from a group. Regardless of their 'status' as a new vs. veteran player.

 

I also don't get this sort of hierarchy type attitude that keeps popping up where players feel they're more entitled somehow because they've been playing longer. The game's been around for, 5'ish years I believe? There's plenty newer players who've only just reached an age where they're allowed to play this, who've only just heard of the game, who've only just started developing a taste for MMO's or really any number of reasons. The fact you've been here for "years" doesn't make you better, it makes you luckier in a way.

[IanArgent]

you people are overcomplicating things.

No matter who said what above it still should be like this:

 

Tactical and Solo modes is where you should watch your stories. This is also where you should go if you have yet to complete a said flashpoint before.

 

As for Hardmode its for getting things done fast collecting your commendations and other spoils, story watching has no place here. If you want your story do it in the above mentioned modes where tripling the time of the flasjpoint doesn't make much of a difference.

 

I agree with this as well - the "entry-level" option (whether that be story or tactical, never hard mode) is the place to make lesiurely runs as a pug. If everyone in the group wants to watch the scenes in HM, or even a majority, it's their run, their rules. But in tacticals, be courteous.

[TX_Angel]

Because the game needs new players to continue to thrive.

 

I think you missed the point.

 

New players won't cause the game to thrive, at least not in any way that matters to a 4 year vet. Yes it is true that someone who just started yesterday has a TON of content in front of them, that is not relevant to the old timers.

 

The one exception would be old timers who consider it part of the game to take new people under their wing and teach them the ropes. Those people exist, but aren't the majority.

[IanArgent]

I think you missed the point.

 

New players won't cause the game to thrive, at least not in any way that matters to a 4 year vet. Yes it is true that someone who just started yesterday has a TON of content in front of them, that is not relevant to the old timers.

 

The one exception would be old timers who consider it part of the game to take new people under their wing and teach them the ropes. Those people exist, but aren't the majority.

 

I was understating matters. Without new players, the game will actually die; because no matter what, veterans leave hobbies. Each individual may have a different span of interest, but eventually, everyone gets bored and drifts away - this happens in every hobby. The ones I've been involved in where they actively encourages newcomers are still around; the ones that catered primarily to the vets are gone; or at least no longer financially viable and survive because of a patron or patrons rich in time or money.

 

If the veteran community doesn't accept the new players, they go away, and then the game goes away.

[TX_Angel]

^ This. It's because we've been here for so long that we should be understanding and helpful to those just starting out. A veteran of 4+ years, who has seen every piece of cinematic & dialogue, should want someone who has just joined to have that same privilege in the hopes that they'll stay and increase the community. Using new players as tools for speed runs and disregarding their enjoyment factor isn't nice in the least.

 

While I understand those points, the reverse is also worth considering...

 

Using vets to carry you thought content you're not ready for and disregarding their enjoyment factor isn't nice in the least.

 

Over Christmas I gave FF 14 a try. That game isn't new, so when I was chatting asking for help, I never took offense when someone called me a noob or said "everyone knows that dude". Those comments are clearly coming from people who know the game back to front and I don't take them personally.

 

If I'm joining people in stuff and they say "we've all done this before", then I'll follow their lead. I'm new, they aren't, I respect that I'm stepping into their existing playground.

 

---

 

Regarding the "community" aspect, what is the upside to building that when there isn't anything to do with it? If we were getting new group content on a semi-regular basis, I'd be totally on board with you. When is the last FlashPoint that launched? The last operation? The last GSF map? Other than the new WZ, the one before that?

 

KotFE has made the situation worse. It wasn't perfect to start with, but at least when SoR was new, people were more understanding of "hey, this is new content". Now SoR is almost 1.5 years old, if you haven't run it yet, fair enough, but you should respect that lots of people have and don't want to slow down for the new person.

 

---

 

Overall, this has largely become a solo game, outside of the old FP/WZ/GSF/Ops. Grouping doesn't matter for anything else (world bosses I guess would be the exception).

 

This is probably why I haven't played in 2 weeks and haven't done anything past Chapter X. I just don't have a reason to care anymore.

[TX_Angel]

I was understating matters. Without new players, the game will actually die; because no matter what, veterans leave hobbies.

 

We might be talking past each other, rather than with each other.

 

Let me try to put this another way. Without new content from Bioware, why would the vets care if the game dies?

 

Bringing in new people is only useful if their attention, time, and money goes toward improving the game and releasing new stuff to do together. I can play single player games offline with no fee, so why does it matter if SWTOR lives or dies if all the new player money doesn't actually produce anything useful to the vets?

[IanArgent]

---

 

Regarding the "community" aspect, what is the upside to building that when there isn't anything to do with it? If we were getting new group content on a semi-regular basis, I'd be totally on board with you. When is the last FlashPoint that launched? The last operation? The last GSF map? Other than the new WZ, the one before that?

 

KotFE has made the situation worse. It wasn't perfect to start with, but at least when SoR was new, people were more understanding of "hey, this is new content". Now SoR is almost 1.5 years old, if you haven't run it yet, fair enough, but you should respect that lots of people have and don't want to slow down for the new person.

 

---

 

 

I think they ought to have something more group-focused that the Heroic SF in the pipeline (not necessarily a "classic" op; since it'd have to be "harder" than the SoR ops and therefore inaccessible to all but a minority of players, or the "Raiders" will feel hard-done-by still, since the "progression of difficulty" will be broken). Raids and FPs are too large a time commitment for what a casual player gets out of them - 1-2 hours of play time for a chance at a reward and basically no story. Add more group content at the 15-30 minute timespan.

 

My comments about being courteous to new players also apply specifically to Story Mode/TFPs. Asking for time to watch cutscenes in HArd Mode+ content isn't courteous, any more than asking for spacebar plz in Story Mode is. Different horses for different courses.

[Seireeni]

Using vets to carry you thought content you're not ready for and disregarding their enjoyment factor isn't nice in the least.

 

Over Christmas I gave FF 14 a try. That game isn't new, so when I was chatting asking for help, I never took offense when someone called me a noob or said "everyone knows that dude". Those comments are clearly coming from people who know the game back to front and I don't take them personally.

 

If I'm joining people in stuff and they say "we've all done this before", then I'll follow their lead. I'm new, they aren't, I respect that I'm stepping into their existing playground.

 

How is this relevant to the conversation? If someone wishes to watch the cutscenes, how are they not "ready for" the flashpoint?

 

And even though we have no new warzones, I still enjoy doing the old ones, and I still enjoy class stories, and I enjoy KotFE - and I've been here almost since launch. Just because you don't care if the game dies doesn't mean that all the veterans agree with you.

[TX_Angel]

How is this relevant to the conversation? If someone wishes to watch the cutscenes, how are they not "ready for" the flashpoint?

 

I was referring to hard mode versions... it used to be true in story mode, until bolster and level sync came along...

 

I only run hard modes now, and it grows old having people show up completely unprepared for them. Bolster works for some, doesn't work for others, but two situations really annoy me:

 

1. A level 65 shows up still in 190 greens or 188 legacy gear. - Ok, if you're level 50 or 60 and you are doing HM and it is something easy like Black Talon, no worries, bolster will be enough. If you're level 65 you have no excuse to not be in at least all 208, hopefully with some augments.

 

Oh you say, you didn't have time to go to the fleet, no worries, I'll pop out Revan, you can get some gear now since Revan sells the 208 basic comms stuff. What? You spent all your basic comms on companion gifts? Vote kick and ignore. What that says is that you're selfish and want to be carried at level 65. This has happened TOO many times.

 

2. A player shows up and says "first time in this flash point, what do we do?" My reply, "this is hard mode, if you have never seen this before, do the story mode first". The exception would be Black Talon/Essles, since those are a cake walk in HM. Maybe Mando Raiders if they are well geared.

 

Since 4.0 launched, I've had this one happen too many times to count. I've seen people in HM FP who have less than 1,000 achievement points, they are on their first toon and just dinged 50+ and clicked queue without bothering to look at what it was for. I remember one player, he was at about 330 achievement points, in hard mode FP.

 

While it is true that everyone has to start somewhere, that is just a headache waiting to happen.

 

Before you call me elitist, keep in mind that I pay for the game too, running people who have played for two weeks through Hard Mode FP is not my idea of fun. If there was a filter to prevent grouping with them, I'd use it.

 

And even though we have no new warzones, I still enjoy doing the old ones, and I still enjoy class stories, and I enjoy KotFE - and I've been here almost since launch. Just because you don't care if the game dies doesn't mean that all the veterans agree with you.

 

You are of course correct, not all of any group will ever agree with any viewpoint. I'm simply stating mine.

 

The point has been brought up "if you don't welcome new people, the game will die", and I replied to that point, stating that if Bioware doesn't make some new group content, this vet won't care if it does.

[robertthebard]

And we have a winner...

 

The game is the way it is due to Bioware, not the players. The existing Flashpoints are old, the multiplayer content is old, a lot of players have done them all to death.

 

With nothing new to do, the two choices are run the same old stuff, or leave.

 

Those who wish to leave do so, those who don't, run the old stuff, but have zero interest in watching it again.

 

If you're a "new player" to a 4 year old MMO that hasn't had new content in awhile, you perhaps should expect a lot of players to be well seasoned and want to speed run stuff. Perhaps it is on the new players to seek out like minded people to run old content as if it were new.

 

Why should the people who have been here 4 years have to slow down for someone who showed up 2 months ago? It really should be the other way around.

 

---

 

The above of course is beside the point, the fault is with Bioware/EA on no new MMO content and KotFE being a solo game.

 

My question is "Why should people that are new be expected to skip, especially if it's not discussed before the FP starts?", and the answer is, of course, that neither "side" should have to. If I'm running HMs, I'm running a premade group, and we all know what to expect. If, for some reason, I decide that I want to run outside of that premade, then I should expect to run into people that don't want to play the way I do, whether I'm wanting to skip or not. I've been playing a while, I know enough people that I can group with so that I don't have to pug. If you're having an issue with that, then it's really not on someone else to accommodate you, unless, as I already stated, this was covered at the beginning of the FP/Op.

 

Of course, this leads to problem number 2 with this scenario, the "ZOMG SB" crowd as a rule doesn't want to discuss the "rules" for a particular run. They expect everyone to play the way they want to play. If they don't, then it's a ragefest about playstyles, and lineage, usually. If you're hitting the queue as a DPS, and you get a pop, then you should be willing to run it, so that you can get the completion. If not, feel free to drop, and re-queue. Good luck with getting a second pop. Note: It doesn't matter which "side" you're on, a DPS that doesn't want to skip that finds him/herself in a situation where everyone else does, should be skipping, and vice versa.

[Seireeni]

snipped

 

I can understand how especially the first thing can be annoying, but I'd like to point out that "I haven't done this fp before" might actually mean "I haven't done this hm fp before". Better to check the achievements before kicking or anything. ^^ I haven't done hm fps since Rise of the Hutt Cartel was a new and shiny thing, so I can't comment much on those.

 

And fair enough, it's your opinion. You just worded it as "why would the vets care if the game dies?", and my answer for that question is "because some of us still enjoy it".