Orange Quality Item Loot - Potenital Issues?

[DerexSWTOR]

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere but I wanted to bring this up in case it hasn't.

 

It seems to me that orange (Heirloom? Custom? not sure what to classify them as in this game) items are going to cause some SIGNIFICANT looting issues in NBG Groups/Guilds.

 

Here's the scenario I see.

 

Lets say I'm a sith sorceress and I have an orange quality single blade lightsaber item with a +11 Endurance Enhancement. I'm in a group with a BH, Operative and a Sith Assassin when the following item drops:

 

Orange Double Bladed Lightsaber.

Crystal: Purple, +6 Endurance

Hilt: Power (60), +10 Endurance, +7 Strength

Mod: +7 Endurance, +7 Strength

Enhancement: +15 Endurance

 

Now, here's where the problem comes in:

 

* The purple crystal is wanted by everyone.

* The hilt is an upgrade to my lightsaber and the Assassin's Light Saber

* The mod is appropriate as an upgrade for the Operative as well as my Pet Khem Val

* The Enhancement is appropriate as an upgrade to everyone.

* The lightsaber itself is obviously the property of the Sith Assassin as they're the only ones that can use it.

 

Here's where the put together NBG group breaks down. Every class in the group has a claim to PART of this orange piece of equipment as a VIABLE and VALID upgrade for their character.

 

An item that SHOULD by RIGHTS go to the Assassin (it's an assassin's item afterall) can be logically contested by every member of the group.

 

This is complecated by the fact that, in general, that orange double bladed lightsaber that just dropped is, at it's base when mods are removed, likely no better than the double bladed lightsaber that the assassin got 10 to 20 levels ago...but it COULD be slightly better if all of the mods were removed.

 

In other words the assassin argues he should be the only one to roll because the base item MAY be an upgrade to his base item by a few damage and he's the only one that can use the base item.

 

The Sorcerer argues that the hilt provides the largest upgrade to his orange lightsaber and makes up the vast majority of the base stats on the equipment so he should ALSO be allowed to roll on it.

 

The BH and the Operative both argue that they should be included beceaus they have orange equipment and they should ALSO get the opportunity to upgrade their equipment with the mods and enahncement slots...and that really the base item is not going to provide a significant upgrade so it's not "made for a specific class".

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE orange equipment, I LOVE how customizable that equipment is and how you can keep the same orange item through your entire career if you wish to (wished I knew that a long time ago, i've thrown out/sold so many orange pieces of equipment...). I don't want changes to the way oranges work...

 

But the potential for oranges to cause significant loot issues is extremely high and I can't imagine it doesn't get worse the more orange equipment you get/the higher level you are.

 

--Illydth

[minervasunrider]

Each base class has a different primary stat. Strength items are for knights/warriors; willpower for consulars/inquisitors; aim for troopers/BHs; cunning for smugglers/agents. The only part of that lightsaber that everybody actually could claim to use is the enhancement/crystal. But it would be unreasonable for anybody to roll need on a double-bladed lightsaber just for the enhancement/crystal. This isn't to say that people won't be unreasonable, but that kind of behavior should just be self-policed by the community. Edited December 27, 2011 by minervasunrider

[reillan]

it's an interesting problem, but not necessarily unique. Items in every MMO ever made have been contested by multiple people.

 

For example: In WoW, a purple lvl 85 cloak dropped that was clearly a DPS Warrior cloak, and I was on my DPS Warrior. However, a Pally rolled on it and won, and he wanted it because it was good for his off spec. I argued I should receive it because DPS Warrior was my main spec, not my off spec. That fell on deaf ears.

 

This has always been the great problem for MMO PUGs: what denotes ethical and fair distribution of items? People agree to need/greed rules typically because they help to make the community more friendly and grease the wheels of society, as it were. But you'll always have the one jerk who insists on rolling on it anyway.

 

In your example, the orange item imho should go to the Assassin, because it's really hard and rare to find orange items. Yes, you can fill up your character with orange items (almost, anyway), if you want, but you want different ones so that you can get everything "just so." This is why I paid 25k recently for an orange Imperial Officer uniform Thus, the important thing to note about the item is its type, not what's on it.

 

I also feel I must point out that this isn't true only of orange items. I've found purple items that have mods on them as well. They aren't completely moddable the way orange items are (and, in fact, may be better in the end), but again they should go to the class that needs them.

 

I do think that if the class already has that item (for oranges: that cosmetic. For purples: that exact item, not counting mods), then I think it'd be socially beneficial and good for the player to say so and open up rolling on the item to everyone.

Edited December 27, 2011 by reillan

[DerexSWTOR]

I beg to differ with you.

 

The Hilt mod produces an upgrade regardless of stats. A hilt with "Damage/Power Rating:" above mine produces a large benefit to my orange item regardless of it's additional stats, PARTICULARLY at lower levels of play.

 

A "Damage/Power" Raiting of 50 vs. 60 is a VERY Significant difference in the Min/Max damage of my saber. Regardless of whether the hilt additional stats are +will or +strength, that hilt at 60 power rating is a signficant upgrade, regardless of my lightsaber class.

 

This gets even WORSE with the amroring slot. With Hilt/Barrel it affects only 2 classes at a time (Warrior/Inquisitor and BH/Operative), with Armoring, all 4 classes benefit.

 

What happens when a light armor piece drops an armoring (60) mod that's an upgrade to everyone? ALL CLASSES benefit from a higher AC, and what happens when that armoring 60 mod drops on a light armor piece of equipment and the tank claims he has a right to it because he needs a higher AC.

 

A few willpower vs. strength is immaterial to a group when you're talking about AC and / or higher HP for the tank.

 

I appreciate my examples may not be driving home my argument, so I'd ask that you look at this from a broader perspective...since orange items are GENERALLY about the same without mods they act as mearly containers for the mods they carry.

 

In my previous example the Sith Assassin really has no leg to stand on because that double bladed saber that dropped is likely the same base stats as he already has...because of that the item shouldn't automatically go to him even though it is CLEARLY a Sith Assassin item.

 

Looking more broadly at ROLES vs. Classes, an item with a higher armor value and/or higher hit points has always gone to the tank class because that is what a tank needs. That means that a mod with a higher AC/HP value is arguable for the tank over the "designed" owner simply because the mod provides a higher ac/hp. We WILL see this kind of thing happen at the top end guilds who are trying to tweak their tanks / healers to be the most efficient they can be for top level raiding.

 

At the top level of the game where upgrades are going to come in incremental steps, there's definately an argument to be made for an orange double bladed lightsaber with an enhancement mod that has a higher stamina or defence rating on it to go to a BH tank than a DPS assassin...regardless of what the rest of the weapon provides.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to advocate ninja looting items out from under people, I'm simply suggesting that I see a high likelyhood of this causing problems.

 

--Illydth

[DerexSWTOR]

@ reillan

 

The difference here is that in most games I've heard of you couldn't argue over a PIECE of an item being an upgrade.

 

In your situation with the offspec vs. mainspec item in WoW there can be a clear concept: for which character does the piece provide the most benfit over the longest term. In your case, you got screwed.

 

In the case of moddable equipment that line gets blurred, does the hilt mod that enhances the assassin's DPS outweigh the enhancement mod that enhances the tank's AC or HP? That's unclear, and it's not really possible to calculate.

 

The issue at question here is the fact that we've never delt with PIECES of an item being upgrades to people before, THAT is where my concern over orange drops comes from.

 

Were that double bladed lightsaber to have it's own base DPS that was different based upon what saber dropped that would be something different, but as i've found, any two orange inquisitor robes with no mods (one came from Black Talon the other came from the very end of Dromman Kaas, a 10 level difference) is likely to be the EXACT same item (both of these items were AC 7 as base stats unmodded).

 

The ONLY real upgrades in my situation are the mods themselves...and when 1 mod benefits one person and another mod benefits the other, it creates a situation where an item that LOOKS like it should OBIVOUSLY go to one person may REALLY be better off in the hands of someone who can't use it.

 

THAT is the situation that bothers me because most of the player base isn't going to see that.

 

--Illydth

[Natarii]

I don't forsee this being TOO big of an issue actually. The system is pretty smart about what mods a piece of orange gear 'starts' with. For example, you'll never see an orange blaster with Willpower mods in it, nor will you see any lightsaber with Aim. The double bladed saber in your example will never have strength on it to begin with, and the hilt inside of it will have willpower because by default, a double bladed saber is made for an inquisitor or consular (more specifically, assassin or shadow). The only shared mod slots that all classes could potentially use in any piece of gear would be the enhancement or the mod slot, and the starting point of any item will have mods helpful the classes meant to use that particular item, which narrows the field down considerably.

 

Sure, a Sorcerer, Marauder, or Juggernaut (and their equivalents in the dirty republic!) could all potentially use a single-bladed saber, despite starting mods (str vs will as primary stats) by chaning out the mods - this will simply have to be something the group agrees upon prior to starting. Running with primary friends and guildmates, this has not been an issue for me at all.

 

Finally, remember that orange items have absolutely ZERO stats intrinsic to the item itself - naked all it's modifications, it is a blank slate with NO stats whatsoever. It does not even have a 'base' dmg or armor value - completely and utterly blank, so the item minus it's parts is equal to any other of it's same type.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Natarii

[XDrcaul]

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere but I wanted to bring this up in case it hasn't.

 

It seems to me that orange (Heirloom? Custom? not sure what to classify them as in this game) items are going to cause some SIGNIFICANT looting issues in NBG Groups/Guilds.

 

Here's the scenario I see.

 

Lets say I'm a sith sorceress and I have an orange quality single blade lightsaber item with a +11 Endurance Enhancement. I'm in a group with a BH, Operative and a Sith Assassin when the following item drops:

 

Orange Double Bladed Lightsaber.

Crystal: Purple, +6 Endurance

Hilt: Power (60), +10 Endurance, +7 Strength

Mod: +7 Endurance, +7 Strength

Enhancement: +15 Endurance

 

Now, here's where the problem comes in:

 

* The purple crystal is wanted by everyone.

* The hilt is an upgrade to my lightsaber and the Assassin's Light Saber

* The mod is appropriate as an upgrade for the Operative as well as my Pet Khem Val

* The Enhancement is appropriate as an upgrade to everyone.

* The lightsaber itself is obviously the property of the Sith Assassin as they're the only ones that can use it.

 

Here's where the put together NBG group breaks down. Every class in the group has a claim to PART of this orange piece of equipment as a VIABLE and VALID upgrade for their character.

 

An item that SHOULD by RIGHTS go to the Assassin (it's an assassin's item afterall) can be logically contested by every member of the group.

 

This is complecated by the fact that, in general, that orange double bladed lightsaber that just dropped is, at it's base when mods are removed, likely no better than the double bladed lightsaber that the assassin got 10 to 20 levels ago...but it COULD be slightly better if all of the mods were removed.

 

In other words the assassin argues he should be the only one to roll because the base item MAY be an upgrade to his base item by a few damage and he's the only one that can use the base item.

 

The Sorcerer argues that the hilt provides the largest upgrade to his orange lightsaber and makes up the vast majority of the base stats on the equipment so he should ALSO be allowed to roll on it.

 

The BH and the Operative both argue that they should be included beceaus they have orange equipment and they should ALSO get the opportunity to upgrade their equipment with the mods and enahncement slots...and that really the base item is not going to provide a significant upgrade so it's not "made for a specific class".

 

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE orange equipment, I LOVE how customizable that equipment is and how you can keep the same orange item through your entire career if you wish to (wished I knew that a long time ago, i've thrown out/sold so many orange pieces of equipment...). I don't want changes to the way oranges work...

 

But the potential for oranges to cause significant loot issues is extremely high and I can't imagine it doesn't get worse the more orange equipment you get/the higher level you are.

 

--Illydth

 

Got a solution, solo it and get it your self. Or roll the dice. It's up to you.

[Grecanis]

IMO the roll should be on the item itself ..not its parts.

[reillan]

I don't forsee this being TOO big of an issue actually. The system is pretty smart about what mods a piece of orange gear 'starts' with.

 

This exactly.

 

If an orange lightsaber drops for an assassin, it'll have Endurance and Willpower. The DPS improvement for the Marauder pails in comparison to the DPS loss he'll take from losing Strength if he tries to equip it.

 

There is, however, exactly one piece of the orange item that may cause this problem: the Enhancement slot, which rarely ever includes a main stat beyond Endurance, and will thus be a potential upgrade to all players.

[onestepfromlost]

I would say that im sure the above poster is right that an item like a double blade saber is only really going to have mods applicable to the class that uses it, however say there was the example the original poster mentioned and a lot of people have claim to parts of it.

 

I am of the opinion that as long as the person has a solid justification then roll need, but then im not the greedy type. If more than one person NEEDS it then let the dice decide. If a person is rolling need on everything or their justification is poor at best then perhaps dont group with them or if a guildmate bring it up and i guess your guild will deal with it as they see fit.

Edited December 29, 2011 by onestepfromlost

[VanorDM]

This is complecated by the fact that, in general, that orange double bladed lightsaber that just dropped is, at it's base when mods are removed, likely no better than the double bladed lightsaber that the assassin got 10 to 20 levels ago...but it COULD be slightly better if all of the mods were removed.

 

No actually it can't be better, because a orange item with no mods has the same exact stats as any other orange item of the same type with no mods in it.

 

The only reason your above example would be an issue is if people thought that rolling for parts is a good idea. I'd say that's pretty silly, a item not the mods in it should be what people roll on.

 

However, that doesn't mean people won't roll on items that some people think they shouldn't, but that's true of every game out there with a loot system like this.