Are ops/raids outdated?

[Slowpokeking]

BW wanted to raise the level cap to 65.

BW wanted to have Raid content at par level for this new cap.

BW did not want to spend a significant amount of resources to provide this Raid content at par level for the new cap.

 

Raising the level of existing Ops allowed BW to say that there are nine max-level Ops available, without them having to expend more resources than they were willing to devote to it.

 

But doesn't solve the problem at all. These are very old ops, reanimate them as zombies doesn't impress the raiders, nor is it really liked by casual players much. I mean these "top gears" are not that useful if Bioware is not going to release new ops content. Running these zombie ops is super boring as well.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Max_Killjoy]

BW wanted to raise the level cap to 65.

BW wanted to have Raid content at par level for this new cap.

BW did not want to spend a significant amount of resources to provide this Raid content at par level for the new cap.

 

Raising the level of existing Ops allowed BW to say that there are nine max-level Ops available, without them having to expend more resources than they were willing to devote to it.

 

And for now, it was going to be pretty much 9 retooled existing Ops for max level, or none at all.

[Quraswren]

Sorry I once enjoyed most of the ops, but right now it just feels quite boring to gather 8 ppl to do these old ones. Especially when you need to wait for certain classes(tank mostly) and stop when some others took a break/left it. Modern gamers prefer quicker content that doesn't require much time to gather a group. Sure Bioware didn't release new ops, but I think current ops style also require some work. Like removing the tank-dps-heal trio from all the ops or make all classes be able to do all three roles and reduce the size of ops group.

 

Outdated?

 

Nah. End game OPS/raids are an important part of the MMO game. A piece of the MMO puzzle that even SWTOR with it's pretty good story cannot due without.

 

Even a game like SWTOR cannot survive on story alone. It's floundering now and went F2P damn near faster than any other game in history when it launched because it relied to much on story (and back then, we had more story and not just that but class stories gamers wanted - Not what we are getting now and less of).

 

So story wont do it as a single piece.

Nor will PVP.

 

OPS and raids wont keep things running by itself either.

 

It takes a bit of all those to make a solid MMO game and any one of those that is missing will cause the MMO puzzle to be incomplete and that is what we are seeing now with SWTOR.

 

An MMO with missing pieces. What do you eventually do with that kind of puzzle that is missing pieces? You eventually throw it in the trash. I think gamers are getting to that point in SWTOR now. Story is no longer as solid with the less than one hour and rather weak chapters. Nothing but 1-4 year old OPS and FP and a reliance of 4 year old heroics with a moronic down leveling system to make them take just a hair bit longer.

 

BUt back a bit more on topic. Are OPS and raids outdated? Nope not at all.

[Slowpokeking]

Outdated?

 

Nah. End game OPS/raids are an important part of the MMO game. A piece of the MMO puzzle that even SWTOR with it's pretty good story cannot due without.

 

Even a game like SWTOR cannot survive on story alone. It's floundering now and went F2P damn near faster than any other game in history when it launched because it relied to much on story (and back then, we had more story and not just that but class stories gamers wanted - Not what we are getting now and less of).

 

So story wont do it as a single piece.

Nor will PVP.

 

OPS and raids wont keep things running by itself either.

 

It takes a bit of all those to make a solid MMO game and any one of those that is missing will cause the MMO puzzle to be incomplete and that is what we are seeing now with SWTOR.

 

An MMO with missing pieces. What do you eventually do with that kind of puzzle that is missing pieces? You eventually throw it in the trash. I think gamers are getting to that point in SWTOR now. Story is no longer as solid with the less than one hour and rather weak chapters. Nothing but 1-4 year old OPS and FP and a reliance of 4 year old heroics with a moronic down leveling system to make them take just a hair bit longer.

 

BUt back a bit more on topic. Are OPS and raids outdated? Nope not at all.

 

But the problem is, few people are really interested in raids these days because it's too time consuming. With limited staff, if Bioware put their full effort into raid, it's going to drive off many people as well.

 

Also it's ok to run if there is new ops keep coming out, but right now we only got reanimated zombie ops which has been done many many many times.

[Tsillah]

But doesn't solve the problem at all. These are very old ops, reanimate them as zombies doesn't impress the raiders, nor is it really liked by casual players much. I mean these "top gears" are not that useful if Bioware is not going to release new ops content. Running these zombie ops is super boring as well.

 

It doesn't solve YOUR problem. In the end, no matter how you twist or turn it, BW saw that Operations were not a top priority for most of the players. Before investing in Operations again, the player base will have to change. Currently I see no indication that there is a solid foundation that qualifies for BW to invest a lot of resources into Ops.

 

They are trying out different things now like Star Forge and the upcoming Eternal Championship. Perhaps it's this type of thing that will be more successful than the Operations.

 

But the real issue here is that you are bored and want something to do. Well, it's not gonna change in the foreseeable future so really you need to decided whether this game is still worth playing for you or whether it's time to take a break or move on.

[gabigool]

Outdated?

 

Nah. End game OPS/raids are an important part of the MMO game. A piece of the MMO puzzle that even SWTOR with it's pretty good story cannot due without.

 

Even a game like SWTOR cannot survive on story alone. It's floundering now and went F2P damn near faster than any other game in history when it launched because it relied to much on story (and back then, we had more story and not just that but class stories gamers wanted - Not what we are getting now and less of).

 

So story wont do it as a single piece.

Nor will PVP.

 

OPS and raids wont keep things running by itself either.

 

It takes a bit of all those to make a solid MMO game and any one of those that is missing will cause the MMO puzzle to be incomplete and that is what we are seeing now with SWTOR.

 

An MMO with missing pieces. What do you eventually do with that kind of puzzle that is missing pieces? You eventually throw it in the trash. I think gamers are getting to that point in SWTOR now. Story is no longer as solid with the less than one hour and rather weak chapters. Nothing but 1-4 year old OPS and FP and a reliance of 4 year old heroics with a moronic down leveling system to make them take just a hair bit longer.

 

BUt back a bit more on topic. Are OPS and raids outdated? Nope not at all.

 

So very well put.

 

I think many of us on the forums spend a bit too much time validating our point of view when in reality we are frustrated we have to defend our little corner of the game. I know I do.

 

Reality is you are correct, the game needs to be able to appeal to a mix of players and playstyles and hopefully the recent influx of $ will allow for that.

 

Nice post.

[Slowpokeking]

It doesn't solve YOUR problem. In the end, no matter how you twist or turn it, BW saw that Operations were not a top priority for most of the players. Before investing in Operations again, the player base will have to change. Currently I see no indication that there is a solid foundation that qualifies for BW to invest a lot of resources into Ops.

 

They are trying out different things now like Star Forge and the upcoming Eternal Championship. Perhaps it's this type of thing that will be more successful than the Operations.

 

But the real issue here is that you are bored and want something to do. Well, it's not gonna change in the foreseeable future so really you need to decided whether this game is still worth playing for you or whether it's time to take a break or move on.

So why not left the old ops there rather than rescale them as zombies, if they think it's not important?

 

Isn't it totally reasonable if I have to spend so much effort for such OLD ops and get bored?

Edited March 15, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Quraswren]

But the problem is, few people are really interested in raids these days because it's too time consuming. With limited staff, if Bioware put their full effort into raid, it's going to drive off many people as well.

 

Well, I disagree with you there on how many play OPS. Especially SM ones. (HM, NM are fewer for sure). SM I think is a much larger number than you are willing to accept.

 

Doesn't really matter what BW is having trouble doing other than they cannot seem to produce. End game raid/OPs are just as important as the other aspects of an MMO. Be that story or PVP or some other side game like GSF.

They cannot put their full attention into raids and I agree with that as it leaves other pieces of the MMO puzzle missing out. It's a delicate balancing act that BW cannot seem to get right much less understand with how they are currently pushing story that has turned out rather weak the last 2 chapters and to be honest. We know story was never going to carry this game in it's current version of story. Class stories maybe had a change. What we are getting isn't a solid move and thats before you count in the bugs.

 

They are having trouble putting the MMO puzzle together and the game is suffering for it.

 

Also it's ok to run if there is new ops keep coming out, but right now we only got reanimated zombie ops which has been done many many many times.

 

And that is just one of SWTOR current problems. ^

End game is suffering heavily and no amount of short story they produce once a month is going to help the other 29-30 days of the month when the story is finished and gamers wonder. *** should I do now. Oh yea, play that crappy old FP/OPS again or play that launch content with down leveling. None of that is entertaining much at this point in the life cycle of SWTOR.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Quraswren

[DarthDymond]

But doesn't solve the problem at all. These are very old ops, reanimate them as zombies doesn't impress the raiders, nor is it really liked by casual players much. I mean these "top gears" are not that useful if Bioware is not going to release new ops content. Running these zombie ops is super boring as well.

You find them boring - okay, perfectly fair position to hold.

 

Brand new players now have nine Ops to play when they reach max level. The alternative, given the resources BW was willing to devote, would have been for them to have zero. Those players may not all find them boring.

 

Players like me, who never or only rarely played Explosive Conflict or some of the other old Ops at par level can now do so again, getting the experience of playing them as they were designed to be played (without the inconvenience of trying to get a mid-level group together for a Raid). Those players may not all find them boring.

 

Players who would have stopped playing these Ops simply because they were 'obsolete' (by virtue of being under the level cap) can now play them at par level, as they were designed to be played. Those players may not all find them boring.

Edited March 15, 2016 by DarthDymond

[Tsillah]

So why not left the old ops there rather than rescale them as zombies, if they think it's not important?

 

Isn't it totally reasonable if I have to spend so much effort for such OLD ops?

 

Why throw away something that still works for a number of people? Again the issue is that YOU don't see the point, but others do. All this is for these other people and you don't get it because you're not one of them. There are still a number of people doing ops. No need to throw that all out. With this move people can do endgame or not but there are ops to play at max. level and you can get better gear in them. If you're bored with it you don't but it is indeed endgame for a low cost for those who still want to do it.

 

You just need to understand that they don't care whether you think it's too much effort or not. Why don't they care? Because you are a minority and there is another minority that says they're still too easy...and there's a much bigger majority that doesn't give a rat's *** about ops. So that's why.

[Slowpokeking]

Well, I disagree with you there on how many play OPS. Especially SM ones. (HM, NM are fewer for sure). SM I think is a much larger number than you are willing to accept.

 

Doesn't really matter what BW is having trouble doing other than they cannot seem to produce. End game raid/OPs are just as important as the other aspects of an MMO. Be that story or PVP or some other side game like GSF.

They cannot put their full attention into raids and I agree with that as it leaves other pieces of the MMO puzzle missing out. It's a delicate balancing act that BW cannot seem to get right much less understand with how they are currently pushing story that has turned out rather weak the last 2 chapters.

 

They are having trouble putting the MMO puzzle together and the game is suffering for it.

 

It once was the most important piece of MMO, and still is a big part, but now I feel that people are losing interest of raid, this is a big reason why MMO are losing to MOB. People prefer games with more flexibility on time and less effort to be spent on personal drama. The story's problem is that they can only be played for once and there is only one storyline for all classes, if there is big difference/substoryline for each classes and replay/achievement system like GW2 it would have been better.

 

 

And that is just one of SWTOR current problems. ^

End game is suffering heavily and no amount of short story they produce once a month is going to help the other 29-30 days of the month when the story is finished and gamers wonder. *** should I do now. Oh yea, play that crappy old FP/OPS again or play that launch content with down leveling. None of that is entertaining much at this point in the life cycle of SWTOR.

Yes, so rescaling them is a bad idea.

[gabigool]

Why throw away something that still works for a number of people?

 

I would argue that the current level scaling excludes many more people than it includes, in that it has increased the number of Operations that many players simply will never be able to do.

[Slowpokeking]

You find them boring - okay, perfectly fair position to hold.

 

Brand new players now have nine Ops to play when they reach max level. The alternative, given the resources BW was willing to devote, would have been for them to have zero. Those players may not all find them boring.

 

Players like me, who never or only rarely played Explosive Conflict or some of the other old Ops at par level can now do so again, getting the experience of playing them as they were designed to be played (without the inconvenience of trying to get a mid-level group together for a Raid). Those players may not all find them boring.

 

Players who would have stopped playing these Ops simply because they were 'obsolete' (by virtue of being under the level cap) can now play them at par level, as they were designed to be played. Those players may not all find them boring.

Brand new players? Why would brand new raid players come to this game rather than others with new raid coming out? If they want to do the ops, do them in level 50-55-60, they can have all the fun they want. It's designed for this level.

 

Really? Then why did the raiders either leave or call for new ops? It's hard to find it not boring when you had run it for so many times and still need to find a full group to endure the drama.

[Max_Killjoy]

It once was the most important piece of MMO,

 

For you.

[Slowpokeking]

Why throw away something that still works for a number of people?

 

This is exactly what Bioware did by rescaling them. And it's not what MMO do, they don't reanimate all the old ops(3-4 years old, went out 2-3 xpc ago). They left them there for people to enjoy the fun they couldn't have before the xpc(except some special path like Onyxia), and release new ones for raiders to challenge.

[Slowpokeking]

For you.

 

It's true, raid once was the only thing you could do in WOW after reaching max level and finished the dungeons.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Quraswren]

It once was the most important piece of MMO, and still is a big part, but now I feel that people are losing interest of raid, this is a big reason why MMO are losing to MOB. People prefer games with more flexibility on time and less effort to be spent on personal drama. The story's problem is that they can only be played for once and there is only one storyline for all classes, if there is big difference/substoryline for each classes and replay/achievement system like GW2 it would have been better.SNIP...

 

And it seems we are simply not going to be agreeing on the interest of raids being in some decline due to time. SM OPS on JC are still pretty solid. I've seen groups forming most evenings and in multiple channels. HM and NM sure, few want that drama or difficulty but SM is pretty solid.

 

Gamers still like that epic adventure but they still like other things to do when they are not running raids and OPS. Thats why I talk about pieces of the MMO puzzle and it being just one piece of that puzzle. It takes all those things gamers love and since BW cannot keep up. The game suffers and thats where we are.

[Slowpokeking]

And it seems we are simply not going to be agreeing on the interest of raids being in some decline due to time. SM OPS on JC are still pretty solid. I've seen groups forming most evenings and in multiple channels. HM and NM sure, few want that drama or difficulty but SM is pretty solid.

 

Gamers still like that epic adventure but they still like other things to do when they are not running raids and OPS. Thats why I talk about pieces of the MMO puzzle and it being just one piece of that puzzle. It takes all those things gamers love and since BW cannot keep up. The game suffers and thats where we are.

 

Yes, I'm not saying that people are not doing them anymore, but like you said, the overall interest has declined. Even WOW suffer from it.

 

Yes, I agree on that, it's just with limited staff, Bioware can't keep all the pieces going, so they need to find a focus, I don't think the current focus is really correct due to the problem you have said, but going other ways might not be better.

 

I'm not a raider myself but I do enjoy some challenging new ops+rock off the old ones to get the decor/mount I once couldn't get. The current system is just horrible to me.

[Tsillah]

This is exactly what Bioware did by rescaling them. And it's not what MMO do, they don't reanimate all the old ops(3-4 years old, went out 2-3 xpc ago). They left them there for people to enjoy the fun they couldn't have before the xpc(except some special path like Onyxia), and release new ones for raiders to challenge.

 

It's what this MMO does. Don't be silly, not all MMOs do exactly the same. They didn't throw them away at all, that's also a silly thing to say. They made them relevant for endgame again and that makes it irrelevant for casual people who just want to easy mode through them. So it's not thrown away, it's used for what they were originally intended for: endgame progression. I agree it's far from perfect, but it serves its purpose for what it is without having to throw big resources at it. Don't like it? Go play another game, it's not gonna change soon if at all.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Tsillah

[Tsillah]

I would argue that the current level scaling excludes many more people than it includes, in that it has increased the number of Operations that many players simply will never be able to do.

 

People can argue all they want, but without actual evidence it's just an opinion and nothing more.

[Slowpokeking]

It's what this MMO does. Don't be silly, not all MMOs do exactly the same. They didn't throw them away at all, that's also a silly thing to say. They made them relevant for endgame again and that makes it irrelevant for casual people who just want to easy mode through them. So it's not thrown away, it's used for what they were originally intended for: endgame progression. I agree it's far from perfect, but it servers its purpose for what it is without having to throw big resources at it. Don't like it? Go play another game, it's not gonna change soon if at all.

 

I don't see a healthy MMO use animated zombie(3-4 years old) ops to keep the challenge. Even GW2(with level sync system) is releasing new content, and the old dungeons become easier with elite spec.

[DarthDymond]

Brand new players? Why would brand new raid players come to this game rather than others with new raid coming out? If they want to do the ops, do them in level 50-55-60, they can have all the fun they want. It's designed for this level.

Why are you talking about "raid players" as if they're a separate species? I'm just talking about new players in general, including those who may have never played an MMO before, those who may have never raided before or never gotten into it, and those who may sporadically play raids and enjoy having the option, but don't focus on them.

 

Those players may get some enjoyment out of having max-level Ops available, even if this is their first time trying a Raid.

 

Really? Then why did the raiders either leave or call for new ops? It's hard to find it not boring when you had run it for so many times and still need to find a full group to endure the drama.

I didn't say everyone would be happy or satisfied with this approach.

 

Just as I said it is perfectly reasonable for you to be bored with old Ops or annoyed at not being able to over-level them, it's perfectly reasonable for other Raiders to feel the same way and even quit over it.

 

BW, or any game company, is never going to be able to please 100% of their players.

Edited March 15, 2016 by DarthDymond

[Tsillah]

I don't see a healthy MMO use animated zombie(3-4 years old) ops to keep the challenge.

And how is SWTOR doing financially right now? Oh right, you don't know.

Even GW2(with level sync system) is releasing new content, and the old dungeons become easier with elite spec.

Feel free to make a quick comparison between how many dungeons GW2 has compared to how many Flash Points SWTOR has. Oh and GW2 is just bringing out their first raid with 3 bosses after 3.5 years. Yeh that game is churning out the endgame. It's hard to keep up with that.

 

Do you think that flashpoints are hard to do with current ops gear? Don't compare their dungeons to our raids. Compare them to our flashpoints.

[robertthebard]

You do understand that the existence of poor players years ago does not in any way invalidate my point. Nor would the presence of high-caliber players today. I am not painting the picture back in ~1.2->2.0 as butterflies and rainbows. So.... I think you aren't actually arguing my point. You're arguing with the fact that I disagreed with you.

 

The level of ability of the average new Operations player today is far below the level of ability in the past. Anyone who spends a decent amount of time doing Operations content in this game - and who has been since Denova came out - cannot possibly disagree with this statement. I'm not sure if I've ever seen anyone aside from you argue this.

 

The game simply does not prepare players for this content. If anything, it encourages new players to learn poor play. I do not blame "casuals", I blame the developers.

 

Because I do disagree. I disagree that the average pool of players 2 years ago, or 3 years ago, or last week is any different than it was. For progression raiding, it's virtually the same pool it was, minus some departures and arrivals. For PuG raiding, it's always been "take what you can get and make the most of it". Sometimes you're pleasantly surprised, other times, not so much. I don't PuG raid, the last two times I tried it I got the aforementioned sage, and a GL that required NiM rated gear for a SM. I raid with my guild. Guess what, the quality hasn't changed one iota since we started progression raiding. I wonder why, then, I might disagree with your assessment that the average player was any better or worse then than now.

[Slowpokeking]

Why are you talking about "raid players" as if they're a separate species? I'm just talking about new players in general, including those who may have never played an MMO before, those who may have never raided before or never gotten into it, and those who may sporadically play raids and enjoy having the option, but don't focus on them.

 

Those players may get some enjoyment out of having max-level Ops available, even if this is their first time trying a Raid.

 

New players would mostly want to play the story coming to this old game rather than the ops content, if they really like ops they could run them at their level. Also I'm sure that level 60 RAV and TOS would still provide difficulty to level 65 players. if Bioware really care about new players' ops experience, they should release new ones rather than animate the old ops into zombies.

 

I didn't say everyone would be happy or satisfied with this approach.

 

Just as I said it is perfectly reasonable for you to be bored with old Ops or annoyed at not being able to over-level them, it's perfectly reasonable for other Raiders to feel the same way and even quit over it.

 

BW, or any game company, is never going to be able to please 100% of their players.

And most of the old players are bored with these very very old ops, many of the raiders even left. Even the new players might not be interested at the ops(highly likely).