Are ops/raids outdated?

[Soluss]

Yes because WOW got a strong playerbase and update, but it's still bleeding because its era, the era of MMO has past.

 

Even if Bioware made these new raids(which means they left everything aside), how many players are they going to get back? Not many.

 

You look at this all wrong. MMOs are not an era of the past. Millions of people still play them. A game just gets stale and boring after a while. Especially when your playstyle is completely neglected for a long time.

 

Bioware is not going to get a ton of players back just by making a new raid. A lot of people never go back to games they quit because the reason they left never changed and they are invested in a new game by that point. The other reason is because usually they left with a large group of friends and most of those wont come back. It has nothing to do with MMOs being an era of the past.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Soluss

[Slowpokeking]

True, they won't get many back simply because those players have lost faith in BW for the many blunders that have been made with this game (not just from the lack of raids, but bug fixes, exploits and many more). What BW needs to do if they want to keep those that have stayed is to keep making raids or more of the raiding community will leave.

 

Something else to consider tho. Most Raiders also do other parts of this game PvP, GSF. So if raiders leave now, those other communities lose people as well. That's not a good thing at all for those communities either.

 

I don't think making raids could solve the problem. Like we just discussed, most of the 1m sube lose in the first year didn't really play raids much. People simply got bored of the WOW alike style.

[Toraak]

I don't think making raids could solve the problem. Like we just discussed, most of the 1m sube lose in the first year didn't really play raids much. People simply got bored of the WOW alike style.

 

Just because someone left before they hit max level at launch or in the 1st month or 2, doesn't mean it has anything to do with leaving because it's a WoW clone. your making an assumption with no facts. They could have left for many reasons. How many of them started this game just because it was a Star Wars game, and didn't like it? how many hadn't played an MMO before at all, and just found it unenjoyable?

 

The answer here is none of us actually know on these questions, so basing the facts a lot left due to it being a WoW clone aren't necessarily true.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Toraak

[Slowpokeking]

You look at this all wrong. MMOs are not an era of the past. Millions of people still play them. A game just gets stale and boring after a while. Especially when your playstyle is completely neglected for a long time.

 

Bioware is not going to get a ton of players back just by making a new raid. A lot of people never go back to games they quit because the reason they left never changed and they are invested in a new game by that point. The other reason is because usually they left with a large group of friends and most of those wont come back. It has nothing to do with MMOs being an era of the past.

 

Sadly it is. Old people leave games all days, but new players are no longer attracted by MMO that much now.

[Slowpokeking]

Just because someone left before they hit max level at launch or in the 1st month or 2, doesn't mean it has anything to do with leaving because it's a WoW clone. your making an assumption with no facts. They could have left for many reasons. How many of them started this game just because it was a Star Wars game, and didn't like it? how many hadn't played an MMO before at all, and just found it unenjoyable?

 

The answer here is none of us actually know on these questions, so basing the facts a lot left due to it being a WoW clone aren't necessarily true.

 

And why wasn't it liked by the majority that were attracted by it in the first place? This is the serious problem.

 

It spent a lot of effort, got a super IP and great story in a MMO. Sure it made some mistakes but overall better than 95% of the MMO. The only answer is quite simple: The Era of MMO has past and people got WOW.

[Tsillah]

I enjoy SWTOR still after many years but I will confess I still play it mostly because there is nothing better out there at the moment. At least not in my view. SWTOR does cater to some of the things I like in a game that other games simply don't offer or are poor at. I am speaking of things like atmosphere, story and good voice acting and well, it is Star Wars after all.

 

I do like the raid content and have done a lot of it, but I guess now my main character is full 224, I am starting to get to the situation where there is no point to it anymore because the operations are all old. And then there is the issue that the other activities that do exist in the game are also old and/or underdeveloped like Starfighter, Conquest and Strongholds for example. BW get in their own way there a lot or rather in my way to enjoy it as much as I could.

 

So I think raid content is still viable but let's be honest, it's rather a bit of a mess in this game now. Try to think of a new player who never did raids before. There are no practice operations. The Story Mode operations are of an enormous variety of difficulty and yet are treated as the same by the game and HM isn't always really HM. Perhaps it's not raiding that's outdated but the way it's being done.

[Toraak]

And why wasn't it liked by the majority that were attracted by it in the first place? This is the serious problem.

 

It spent a lot of effort, got a super IP and great story in a MMO. Sure it made some mistakes but overall better than 95% of the MMO. The only answer is quite simple: The Era of MMO has past and people got WOW.

 

I personally Disagree with that, but Nothing I believe is proof (with facts) against what you believe, and nothing you can say can prove with facts, that MMO's are in the past. I simply believe that any gaming company needs MORE then a certain IP. They need to continually create content for the game on a reasonable time table (for as many aspects as possible PvP, GSF, PvE, Story etc). They also must consistently fix bugs (game breaking ones especially) within a reasonable amount of time. This has not happened here, so people are moving on, but from the people I know that have moved on, they are still moving to other MMO's.

[robertthebard]

Seriously I just love how people talk out their butt about what "modern gamers prefer" when in actuality, they are talking about themselves.

 

OPs isnt for everyone, thats cool, but neither is playing a story over and over and over and over. But it seems story centric people just have this obsession with trying to destroy operations. Just let it go man, you got your wish, they are focusing on story atm, dont be selfish and try to destroy what others like.

 

Just as an aside here, because I don't care one way or the other, since I raid with my guild, or not at all, but if it wasn't a problem would there be countless threads/posts about how it's a problem? I mean, we have this thread, where the OP discusses filling a group as part of the problem, the latest iteration of the "we need cross server queues" thread, which suggest that there is a lack of players to fill these roles. Of course, most tanks/healers are limiting themselves to guild/premade groups to avoid the drama issue, that's been an ongoing thing since before swtor frankly.

[Slowpokeking]

I personally Disagree with that, but Nothing I believe is proof (with facts) against what you believe, and nothing you can say can prove with facts, that MMO's are in the past. I simply believe that any gaming company needs MORE then a certain IP. They need to continually create content for the game on a reasonable time table (for as many aspects as possible PvP, GSF, PvE, Story etc). They also must consistently fix bugs (game breaking ones especially) within a reasonable amount of time. This has not happened here, so people are moving on, but from the people I know that have moved on, they are still moving to other MMO's.

 

It's true, not just SWTOR, most of the MMO of that era has failed, even the super mega WOW is going downhill since 2010 or 2011. Even if Bioware do all these, it's just another WOW.

[Yorioko]

If I ran a business and 90% of my customers wanted product A

and 10% wanted product B

The I would be an idiot, to ignore the 90% and cater to the 10% and at the same time expect to have a profit.

90% want the game more or less as it is now......10 % want radical changes.

Do the Math

[Slowpokeking]

Now I just saw hours being wasted because of a noob tank who can't find his way into Xeno and quit twice, causing the whole raid group to disband.

[Yorioko]

Now I just saw hours being wasted because of a noob tank who can't find his way into Xeno and quit twice, causing the whole raid group to disband.

 

Lousy group..............I'd expect the norm would be to take a break and pug a replacement..........

 

OHhhh I forgot it don't fit in when we can cry foul!

[Slowpokeking]

Lousy group..............I'd expect the norm would be to take a break and pug a replacement..........

 

OHhhh I forgot it don't fit in when we can cry foul!

 

But they had already wait for a long while. Seriously finding a tank(and sometimes heal) is wayy to painful today.

[Tsillah]

But they had already wait for a long while. Seriously finding a tank(and sometimes heal) is wayy to painful today.

 

It's a tricky thing. A game like GW2 boasted not having the holy trinity in their game and had no raiding content. Now they are introducing raiding content and the trinity is coming back into it since some time.

 

I know it's hard to find tanks and healers sometimes but the question that has to be answered is why. I think it's important to have these roles because it gives more definition to characters. At the same time it should be rewarding to play them. I play mostly healers, but also tanks and dps. I do not like to tank pugs though because there is just too much crap going on in pugs. It's the players in my view that cause this problem and not the game.

[Slowpokeking]

It's a tricky thing. A game like GW2 boasted not having the holy trinity in their game and had no raiding content. Now they are introducing raiding content and the trinity is coming back into it since some time.

 

I know it's hard to find tanks and healers sometimes but the question that has to be answered is why. I think it's important to have these roles because it gives more definition to characters. At the same time it should be rewarding to play them. I play mostly healers, but also tanks and dps. I do not like to tank pugs though because there is just too much crap going on in pugs. It's the players in my view that cause this problem and not the game.

 

Which is a big mistake for GW2, it went away from casual players since HoT.

 

So I think all classes should be able to do all three roles in ops and there should be no "tank gear". At least for OLD CONTENT.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Eanelinea]

I'm a raider who is taking a break. I was a DPS, Healer and recently a main Tank in operations. I prefer and enjoy story mode operations because I can pick my nose, drink my coffee, smack the husband and still facesmash my keyboard and win. HM and NIM too much one has to do to do them and I have done them, mostly as a tank.

 

I was in progression guilds/groups where they would do the same damn raid every two days every single weeks for MONTHS. Momma ain't go time for dat. I get bored easily. If I'm doing the new flavor of the year and nothing but the new flavor, I'm going to start getting bored and pissed off. I like changing things.

 

We have a bunch of ops, I don't mind doing them even if I passed it years ago. But as long as it's today is EV, tomorrow is DP, Friday it's ToS. Not TOS, TOS, TOS, TOS. Next week, TOS TOS TOS, no thank you.

[Tsillah]

Which is a big mistake for GW2, it went away from casual players since HoT.

 

So I think all classes should be able to do all three roles in ops and there should be no "tank gear". At least for OLD CONTENT.

 

Well the game was on a downhill trend before HoT so clearly they had to change something. The problem with being too casual as GW2 has been, is that nothing matters because it all becomes the same. I remember doing dungeons after forgetting to reassign my skill points in my skill trees. I had none equipped and I didn't even notice till after the dungeon. Also all classes are more or less the same and that gets boring too.

 

So I do not share your view that it was a mistake. I think GW2 was too casual for an MMO in the sense that nothing you really did mattered. I would hate for SWTOR to go too far in that direction. The problem again is balancing. Instead of making clear decisions and make dificiculty levels make sense we have SM Ops with wildly varying difficulty as well as in individual boss fights. Not a problem for the more seasoned raider but a big stumbling block for more casual players. In essence, SM Operations currently don't serve any demographic in the game, they just tried to make a middle ground and it doesn't work. A lot of SM boss fights are too hard still for casual raider and overall it's too easy for more seasoned raiders and an insult to hardcore raiders. Now hardcore raiders are clearly not the target audience anymore but SM ops still don't make sense for what they should be.

 

I've been an advocate for having Story Mode Operations, Normal Mode Operations and Hard Mode Operations for a long time. Simply because it gives a clear indication of difficulty and people can choose what's best for them. But the difficulty already changes a lot within the current SM tier and that makes it that the GF set up with daily ops simply doesn't work.

 

Heck, even to have a couple of practice ops that are very simple but teach people the basics of their roles without being difficult but teach people certain basic tank, dps and heal skills would go a long way in getting new players into operations without being a total liability to the group.

 

A lot more can be done but I just think operations overall in this game are a mess and that blotting out the defined roles of the trinity will not be the best move for any MMO. In the end that makes everything the same.

[Slowpokeking]

Well the game was on a downhill trend before HoT so clearly they had to change something. The problem with being too casual as GW2 has been, is that nothing matters because it all becomes the same. I remember doing dungeons after forgetting to reassign my skill points in my skill trees. I had none equipped and I didn't even notice till after the dungeon. Also all classes are more or less the same and that gets boring too.

 

So I do not share your view that it was a mistake. I think GW2 was too casual for an MMO in the sense that nothing you really did mattered. I would hate for SWTOR to go too far in that direction. The problem again is balancing. Instead of making clear decisions and make dificiculty levels make sense we have SM Ops with wildly varying difficulty as well as in individual boss fights. Not a problem for the more seasoned raider but a big stumbling block for more casual players. In essence, SM Operations currently don't serve any demographic in the game, they just tried to make a middle ground and it doesn't work. A lot of SM boss fights are too hard still for casual raider and overall it's too easy for more seasoned raiders and an insult to hardcore raiders. Now hardcore raiders are clearly not the target audience anymore but SM ops still don't make sense for what they should be.

 

I've been an advocate for having Story Mode Operations, Normal Mode Operations and Hard Mode Operations for a long time. Simply because it gives a clear indication of difficulty and people can choose what's best for them. But the difficulty already changes a lot within the current SM tier and that makes it that the GF set up with daily ops simply doesn't work.

 

Heck, even to have a couple of practice ops that are very simple but teach people the basics of their roles without being difficult but teach people certain basic tank, dps and heal skills would go a long way in getting new players into operations without being a total liability to the group.

 

A lot more can be done but I just think operations overall in this game are a mess and that blotting out the defined roles of the trinity will not be the best move for any MMO. In the end that makes everything the same.

I agree, nothing other than LS is being add, but I don't think HoT went to the correct direction, at least they shouldn't make the wild map so dangerous for solo players which a trash mob can kill you quickly if not careful enough, especially Tangled Depth. This is overkill and now they are focusing everything on the elite raid, which has gone way too far.

 

Yep, I think old ops should have been faceroll like they were in 3.0, no point to bring it up to keep some "difficulty", if they want it, bring out new ones.

[BenduKundalini]

No.

 

This message brought to you by 'Short Answers For Stupid Questions'!

 

Oh my, you killed me!

[Tsillah]

I agree, nothing other than LS is being add, but I don't think HoT went to the correct direction, at least they shouldn't make the wild map so dangerous for solo players which a trash mob can kill you quickly if not careful enough, especially Tangled Depth. This is overkill and now they are focusing everything on the elite raid, which has gone way too far.

 

Yep, I think old ops should have been faceroll like they were in 3.0, no point to bring it up to keep some "difficulty", if they want it, bring out new ones.

 

I haven't played HoT but from what you are telling me I would agree. I think the best thing about it is the gliding anyways but it's not enough to bring me back to the game.

 

I think the problem BW was facing is that people just weren't doing the old ops anymore until they gave them current rewards to keep them relevant. The problem with the new operations that did come out like Ravagers and ToS is that apparently very few people actually played them. BW themselves commented about 6 months after their release that not even 8% of the player base had even set foot in ToS at all.

 

You really think they could make a business case for making new operations if not even 8% of the players even set foot in the most recent one? Honestly that's a big resource investment for a small part of the player base.

[Slowpokeking]

I haven't played HoT but from what you are telling me I would agree. I think the best thing about it is the gliding anyways but it's not enough to bring me back to the game.

 

I think the problem BW was facing is that people just weren't doing the old ops anymore until they gave them current rewards to keep them relevant. The problem with the new operations that did come out like Ravagers and ToS is that apparently very few people actually played them. BW themselves commented about 6 months after their release that not even 8% of the player base had even set foot in ToS at all.

 

You really think they could make a business case for making new operations if not even 8% of the players even set foot in the most recent one? Honestly that's a big resource investment for a small part of the player base.

 

I agree with your point, which is why I'm saying that raid/ops is outdated now. But rescaling the level is hurting casual players and not gonna impress the raiders.

 

I'm not much of a raider before 3.0 because I don't want to spend much effort to raid like WOW. In 3.0 many ops became faceroll because of the level scale, even the level 55 ones are easier. So I could find a group and get the title/decor/mount I couldn't get before. I believe many people did it the same way. But rescaling took out the fun and even I, who only ran the ops badly for a couple of months after 3.0, have no desire to waste much effort on these old old contents.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Soul_of_Flames]

People claim drama over this sort of thing. But let me tell you, I've been in the same guild since year one, running with mostly the same people, and we have barely ever had any drama.

 

I mean, the occasional spat here and there, but nothing that really ruined the experience for others.

 

You know, whenever I come on these forums, I see all these threads complaining about different aspects of the game, and replies to those threads saying things like "well this other part of the game is better anyway..."

 

I feel like I'm the only person in this game that actually enjoys everything the game offers. PvE stuff like story content, FPs and Ops in all difficulty modes. Social stuff like guild interaction and events as well as conquest. Crafting. And PvP like warzones and GSF. And I feel like I'm relatively competent in all these aspects.

 

So my question is this: What about me? Screw all these people whining "wah wah get rid of raids" or "wah wah pvp is ruining the game" or "wah wah, this week's conquest is all about crafting." Just deal with what you like and stop trying to ruin other people's fun. :\

[Slowpokeking]

People claim drama over this sort of thing. But let me tell you, I've been in the same guild since year one, running with mostly the same people, and we have barely ever had any drama.

 

I mean, the occasional spat here and there, but nothing that really ruined the experience for others.

 

You know, whenever I come on these forums, I see all these threads complaining about different aspects of the game, and replies to those threads saying things like "well this other part of the game is better anyway..."

 

I feel like I'm the only person in this game that actually enjoys everything the game offers. PvE stuff like story content, FPs and Ops in all difficulty modes. Social stuff like guild interaction and events as well as conquest. Crafting. And PvP like warzones and GSF. And I feel like I'm relatively competent in all these aspects.

 

So my question is this: What about me? Screw all these people whining "wah wah get rid of raids" or "wah wah pvp is ruining the game" or "wah wah, this week's conquest is all about crafting." Just deal with what you like and stop trying to ruin other people's fun. :\

But 3-4 years old content should have been very easy for pug players, not that you have to grab enough tanks/healers for it.

[rklontz]

Like removing the tank-dps-heal trio from all the ops or make all classes be able to do all three roles and reduce the size of ops group.

 

They tried that in GW2 and it didn't work that well.

[Slowpokeking]

They tried that in GW2 and it didn't work that well.

 

It worked for most of the PVE, just not the elite raid.