Are ops/raids outdated?

[Yorioko]

That would only seem to be a problem if someone is ONLY here to do new, new, new Ops.

 

There's SO much going on in this game that you could rotate between mains and alts, story and endgame, and the various ops, and not get bored -- IF one is doing the Ops out of enjoyment of the Ops, and not because one must have a new thing to do every month and only gets enjoyment out of conquering a new challenge.

 

True!

 

it is all about what you want out of the game

[Slowpokeking]

That would only seem to be a problem if someone is ONLY here to do new, new, new Ops.

 

There's SO much going on in this game that you could rotate between mains and alts, story and endgame, and the various ops, and not get bored -- IF one is doing the Ops out of enjoyment of the Ops, and not because one must have a new thing to do every month and only gets enjoyment out of conquering a new challenge.

 

Why not? All raider would prefer new content. It's hurting both sides. Raider don't like run off the same ops for years and other casual players don't want to spend much effort on these old ops.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

True!

 

it is all about what you want out of the game

 

If I'm a raider, I would go to other games which they offer new content.

 

If I'm a casual player/non raider, I would prefer easy run on the decades old ops/fp to do what I couldn't do years ago.

 

Rescale old ops without new ops=hurting both sides.

[Soluss]

But the game went F2P in the 1.0 cycle, which the update was quite reasonable.

 

It was 8 months after release. The game had lost over a million subs by that point. The game launched with 2 raids. One of those raids had 1 boss in it. From that point they added 4 bosses to the existing raid and 2 more raids giving a total of 4 raids to do. They also added two extra flashpoints and one warzone.

 

It seems like a lot of content but it really wasn't. The bigger problem was they made the raids fairly easy to do and it was very fast to gear up in them. EC was actually fairly difficult I thought though. In any case it was way too easy to not only get to end game but to gear up in end game. This had the effect of making content not last as long as it should have. Which again adds to my point that the game was too easy and devs couldnt keep up with the need for new content.

 

IMO the game has gone further down hill since then. Devs keep changing the direction of the game, keep getting cutbacks in staff, providing less and less content over time and losing more and more players. Thats my whole point. If you can't keep players happy then more and more players leave. As more and more players leave even more leave because they have no one to play with. Also as more and more players leave, more and more staff get canned. As staff gets canned less and less content can be created. Which means more players leave as they get bored. It's a viscous cycle. If not for gambling boxes this game would probably already be canned because that is a huge source of income for them and probably the thing that is really keeping this game afloat.

[Soluss]

But this game's new content got choked out and turned F2P because it lost many players in the 1.0 cycle. Which means it's not "people left because there is no new content", but "people left so it went F2P and got reduced content".

 

You fail to realize that people leveled to cap and completed raids inside the first month. In the 8 months before F2P they added two raids that were completed in the first week. People were all geared up inside a month and had the 4 raids on farm status with geared out alts and companions. There was no reason to keep doing the raids anymore and people left. This all happened before F2P.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Soluss

[Slowpokeking]

It was 8 months after release. The game had lost over a million subs by that point. The game launched with 2 raids. One of those raids had 1 boss in it. From that point they added 4 bosses to the existing raid and 2 more raids giving a total of 4 raids to do. They also added two extra flashpoints and one warzone.

 

It seems like a lot of content but it really wasn't. The bigger problem was they made the raids fairly easy to do and it was very fast to gear up in them. EC was actually fairly difficult I thought though. In any case it was way too easy to not only get to end game but to gear up in end game. This had the effect of making content not last as long as it should have. Which again adds to my point that the game was too easy and devs couldnt keep up with the need for new content.

 

IMO the game has gone further down hill since then. Devs keep changing the direction of the game, keep getting cutbacks in staff, providing less and less content over time and losing more and more players. Thats my whole point. If you can't keep players happy then more and more players leave. As more and more players leave even more leave because they have no one to play with. Also as more and more players leave, more and more staff get canned. As staff gets canned less and less content can be created. Which means more players leave as they get bored. It's a viscous cycle. If not for gambling boxes this game would probably already be canned because that is a huge source of income for them and probably the thing that is really keeping this game afloat.

 

It was a lot, even WOW didn't have that many raids upon the release of vanilla(Onyxia and MC, BWL was released in 2005). They also introduced NIM mode. And you are talking about they lost 1 millions players. I;m sure most of these people didn't even beat HM EC when they quit. I don't think difficulty is the problem but people are getting tired of WOW-alike MMO.

[Slowpokeking]

You fail to realize that people leveled to cap and completed raids inside the first month. In the 8 months before F2P they added two raids that were completed in the first week. People were all geared up inside a month and had the 4 raids on farm status with geared out alts and companions. There was no reason to keep doing the raids anymore and people left. This all happened before F2P.

How many of these people finished all the ops when they quit? From what I've known, many many of them didn't even reach max level when they quit. There are people who finished HM EC in the first week, but obviously it's not the majority.

[Soluss]

But ops shouldn't be a niche part of the game, at least those VERY OLD ones. New ones should be niche to players, but 3-4 years old ones like EV KP EC and TFB should have been easily done by pugs without harsh class requirement or even 2-3 menable, this is how a MMO run.

 

It's not I don't want to do it, but many many people don't want to wast much effort on unrelated issue for a game. This is why MMO is keep dwindling and MOB is getting so popular.

 

EV and KP were easily done by pugs. EC was probably too hard for that for a long time though. TFB was mostly easily done by pugs. Maybe not nightmare mode of these raids but story modes and eventually hardmodes were.

 

People dont want to do the effort anymore because that content is 3 years old. They have already done the effort 100's of times over.

[Slowpokeking]

EV and KP were easily done by pugs. EC was probably too hard for that for a long time though. TFB was mostly easily done by pugs. Maybe not nightmare mode of these raids but story modes and eventually hardmodes were.

 

People dont want to do the effort anymore because that content is 3 years old. They have already done the effort 100's of times over.

 

Yeah, so why rescale them?

[Max_Killjoy]

Why not? All raider would prefer new content. It's hurting both sides. Raider don't like run off the same ops for years and other casual players don't want to spend much effort on these old ops.

 

My point was that if you're willing to "rotate", you're not doing the 1 or 2 ops for years, you're doing several ops, and other things.

[Soluss]

It was a lot, even WOW didn't have that many raids upon the release of vanilla(Onyxia and MC, BWL was released in 2005). They also introduced NIM mode. And you are talking about they lost 1 millions players. I;m sure most of these people didn't even beat HM EC when they quit. I don't think difficulty is the problem but people are getting tired of WOW-alike MMO.

 

I dont take the stance that they lost a million players over just raids. There are a lot of reasons but that was one of them. NIM mode really wasnt any more difficult provided you had the gear from HMs.

 

4 raids is not a lot when they are as easy as they were. WoW was much harder back then and the raids were too. SWToR difficulty in comparison isn't even close. On top of that people were new to those mechanics back then. Mechanics don't change much between MMO's of this style and that makes it much easier for players to learn new raids because there are far more people now that know what they are doing compared to when WoW launched.

[Soluss]

How many of these people finished all the ops when they quit? From what I've known, many many of them didn't even reach max level when they quit. There are people who finished HM EC in the first week, but obviously it's not the majority.

 

Again, its not my claim that everyone left because of just this one thing. It was just part of the problem.

[Soluss]

Yeah, so why rescale them?

 

As a last ditch effort of keeping people playing? They have a skeleton crew working on this game now. It's far far easier to rescale content then it is to make new content. Unfortunately it won't keep as many people playing.

[Slowpokeking]

I dont take the stance that they lost a million players over just raids. There are a lot of reasons but that was one of them. NIM mode really wasnt any more difficult provided you had the gear from HMs.

 

4 raids is not a lot when they are as easy as they were. WoW was much harder back then and the raids were too. SWToR difficulty in comparison isn't even close. On top of that people were new to those mechanics back then. Mechanics don't change much between MMO's of this style and that makes it much easier for players to learn new raids because there are far more people now that know what they are doing compared to when WoW launched.

 

What do you mean not anymore difficult? To majority of the players it's surely very hard.

 

When we are talking about difficulty, how many people had beat EC HM when they left? 5%?10%? We lost 75% players.

[Slowpokeking]

Again, its not my claim that everyone left because of just this one thing. It was just part of the problem.

 

And what was the main problem? People are getting tired of WOWalike MMO.

[Slowpokeking]

As a last ditch effort of keeping people playing? They have a skeleton crew working on this game now. It's far far easier to rescale content then it is to make new content. Unfortunately it won't keep as many people playing.

 

But it's causing the opposite effort. Raiders don't like to run these all over again, and other casual players don't want to spend much effort on them, especially when they could faceroll them in the 3.0 cycle.

 

One thing is common for both sides: Nobody thinks it's a good idea to run 3-4 years old content with a full group and so much requirement.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Soluss]

But it's causing the opposite effort. Raiders don't like to run these all over again, and other casual players don't want to spend much effort on them, especially when they could faceroll them in the 3.0 cycle.

 

One thing is common for both sides: Nobody thinks it's a good idea to run 3-4 years old content with a full group and so much requirement.

 

Well unfortunately there is not much BW can do with the skeleton crew they have. It takes them a month to create an hour worth of story and that usually is broken. Raids take a lot of time to develop and fine tune. The staff is so skeleton crew that they just can't do it all. Its like trying to build a house with two people as opposed to 20 people.

[Slowpokeking]

Well unfortunately there is not much BW can do with the skeleton crew they have. It takes them a month to create an hour worth of story and that usually is broken. Raids take a lot of time to develop and fine tune. The staff is so skeleton crew that they just can't do it all. Its like trying to build a house with two people as opposed to 20 people.

 

If they want to focus on raids(which I don't think it would be a good idea), then focus on it so it would get the raiders. If they don't, at least leave those for casual players to enjoy solo/2-3 men it. The current setting is probably the worst.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Soluss]

What do you mean not anymore difficult? To majority of the players it's surely very hard.

 

When we are talking about difficulty, how many people had beat EC HM when they left? 5%?10%? We lost 75% players.

 

For the most part it was added hit points and damage. The same raid just had to have better gear to do it.

 

Yes EC was the hardest of the bunch IMO. Probably caused more people to leave because they were use to easier raids and had no desire to get better as a team. Instead of getting better as a team some decided to quit because they dont like hard things I guess. Everyone is different.

[Slowpokeking]

For the most part it was added hit points and damage. The same raid just had to have better gear to do it.

 

Yes EC was the hardest of the bunch IMO. Probably caused more people to leave because they were use to easier raids and had no desire to get better as a team. Instead of getting better as a team some decided to quit because they dont like hard things I guess. Everyone is different.

 

So raid is not the main reason of the game went F2P. Even by that time, Bioware had to focus to get at least one certain group of players rather than trying to dominate everything like WOW did because it was a different era.

 

Right now they really need to know it better because lack of crew.

[GrandLordMenace]

For the most part it was added hit points and damage. The same raid just had to have better gear to do it.

 

Yes EC was the hardest of the bunch IMO. Probably caused more people to leave because they were use to easier raids and had no desire to get better as a team. Instead of getting better as a team some decided to quit because they dont like hard things I guess. Everyone is different.

 

EC isn't as hard as Revan HM was even post nerf in 3.0. In 4.0 NiM EC, the biggest difficulty about it is DPS checks, in comparison tanking mechanics in EC are simplistic to later operations, and healers can do stupidly more healing compared to on tier. You can delete entire mechanics in the raid with some of the abilities classes have now (*cough saber reflect*)

 

People didn't leave cause difficulty, they left cause no use in reclearing already cleared on tier raids.

Edited March 13, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[Toraak]

And what was the main problem? People are getting tired of WOWalike MMO.

 

Somehow I highly doubt that actually. I know a lot of people from my guild (myself included) that have recently reactivated or started a WoW account because we are getting no new Operations in this game, and are so bored of running the Ops we've been doing for years in some cases.

 

Unless BW is planning another Level increase and leaves these Ops at 65, and give us something new they seriously wasted time rescaling these Ops. Without new raids they will at this point quickly lose those of us who are trying to give them a chance, even tho we haven't seen anything new now in over 17 months.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Toraak

[Slowpokeking]

Somehow I highly doubt that actually. I know a lot of people from my guild (myself included) that have recently reactivated or started a WoW account because we are getting no new Operations in this game, and are so bored of running the Ops we've been doing for years in some cases.

Unless BW is planning another Level increase and leaves these Ops at 65, and give us something new they seriously wasted time rescaling these Ops. Without new raids they will at this point quickly lose those of us who are trying to give them a chance, even tho we haven't seen anything new now in over 17 months.

 

Yes because WOW got a strong playerbase and update, but it's still bleeding because its era, the era of MMO has past.

 

Even if Bioware made these new raids(which means they left everything aside), how many players are they going to get back? Not many.

[Soluss]

EC isn't as hard as Revan HM was even post nerf in 3.0. In 4.0 NiM EC, the biggest difficulty about it is DPS checks, in comparison tanking mechanics in EC are simplistic to later operations, and healers can do stupidly more healing compared to on tier. You can delete entire mechanics in the raid with some of the abilities classes have now (*cough saber reflect*)

 

People didn't leave cause difficulty, they left cause no use in reclearing already cleared on tier raids.

 

I was talking about at the time. Of the original four raids EC was the hardest. I stopped playing before Revan and I only pop in now and again to check out the game. Unfortunately my friends arent coming back and the guild I merged into seems to have vanished.

 

Im not going to even bother finding yet another guild as I am way behind the curve and to put it simply the direction of the game isnt to my liking. I play to play with others and it doesnt seem like they are going to be adding new group content anytime soon or very often.

 

As for your last sentence that was kind of my point. Everything was pretty much easy to do and easy to gear up quickly. No use in continuing to raid the same thing over and over and over because at some point its no longer fun.

[Toraak]

Yes because WOW got a strong playerbase and update, but it's still bleeding because its era, the era of MMO has past.

 

Even if Bioware made these new raids(which means they left everything aside), how many players are they going to get back? Not many.

 

True, they won't get many back simply because those players have lost faith in BW for the many blunders that have been made with this game (not just from the lack of raids, but bug fixes, exploits and many more). What BW needs to do if they want to keep those that have stayed is to keep making raids or more of the raiding community will leave.

 

Something else to consider tho. Most Raiders also do other parts of this game PvP, GSF. So if raiders leave now, those other communities lose people as well. That's not a good thing at all for those communities either.

Edited March 13, 2016 by Toraak