Are ops/raids outdated?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

You find them boring - okay, perfectly fair position to hold.

 

Brand new players now have nine Ops to play when they reach max level. The alternative, given the resources BW was willing to devote, would have been for them to have zero. Those players may not all find them boring.

 

Players like me, who never or only rarely played Explosive Conflict or some of the other old Ops at par level can now do so again, getting the experience of playing them as they were designed to be played (without the inconvenience of trying to get a mid-level group together for a Raid). Those players may not all find them boring.

 

Players who would have stopped playing these Ops simply because they were 'obsolete' (by virtue of being under the level cap) can now play them at par level, as they were designed to be played. Those players may not all find them boring.

 

I shared this opinion at announcement and even after they launched in this state.

 

However after a month or so I realised I had still done them, nothing felt new and I was getting kind of bored quickly where a quick browse of IGN or Gamespot at a review of X game for any of the various platforms was enough to have me off buying that and playing that instead.

Personally the operation rejig just wasn't enough to keep me ticking along ... it needed something new in addition to it.

 

The GTN stuff was still enough of a lure for me to login and play this game at least.

[Khevar]

Actually I want the old ops be easy faceroll because their era is long gone.

Your "because" isn't terribly relevant to this discussion.

 

The people that enjoy running ops would have been thrilled to get new ones. Few people would argue against that.

 

But that hasn't happened. There are no publicly stated plans for that to happen in the near future. It's entirely possible they may not happen for a very long lime, if ever.

 

Every time you mention "new ops", it is a red herring. You don't actually want new level 65 ops that are an appropriate challenge to max-level players with decent gear. Now, I'm reasonably sure that you wouldn't object if such were added, but that's not your goal.

 

Your actual desire is for the old ops to be made easier. On a par with how easy EV / KP and EC were during the 3.0 cycle when players were 10 levels over the content.

 

Am I wrong?

Edited March 15, 2016 by Khevar

[DarthDymond]

I shared this opinion at announcement and even after they launched in this state.

 

However after a month or so I realised I had still done them, nothing felt new and I was getting kind of bored quickly where a quick browse of IGN or Gamespot at a review of X game for any of the various platforms was enough to have me off buying that and playing that instead.

Personally the operation rejig just wasn't enough to keep me ticking along ... it needed something new in addition to it.

 

The GTN stuff was still enough of a lure for me to login and play this game at least.

Totally understandable.

 

I don't raid frequently, so Ops were never going to be a make-or-break feature for me, personally. But I do enjoy them on occasion and having played since beta with no breaks in my sub, I had run each of them before KOTFE's level sync at least once, and most of them multiple times.

 

As of now, the only one that really feels "old" to me is TfB (although I like fighting Space!C'thulhu enough that I can still be talked into running it), with S&V and DF getting somewhat close to that point. Overall I like having the full slate of Ops available - particularly Explosive Conflict, which I never ran at par level and had been wanting to try like that for a while. (Are we going to have to start calling that Op "Denova" or "Den" or something once Eternal Championship finally releases, to avoid "EC" confusion?)

Edited March 15, 2016 by DarthDymond

[Slowpokeking]

Your "because" isn't terribly relevant to this discussion.

 

The people that enjoy running ops would have been thrilled to get new ones. Few people would argue against that.

 

But that hasn't happened. There are no publicly stated plans for that to happen in the near future. It's entirely possible they may not happen for a very long lime, if ever.

 

Every time you mention "new ops", it is a red herring. You don't actually want new level 65 ops that are an appropriate challenge to max-level players with decent gear. Now, I'm reasonably sure that you wouldn't object if such were added, but that's not your goal.

 

Your actual desire is for the old ops to be made easier. On a par with how easy EV / KP and EC were during the 3.0 cycle when players were 10 levels over the content.

 

Am I wrong?

No, I think a healthy MMO should bring out new content even though I might not run it at first place. The old ones should become much easier rather than the current zombie status.

 

New ops came out and become new challenges.

Old ones get easier and easier, eventually pug's fun to gather what they couldn't get.

 

It's how it should work and it did work that way until SoR decided to "keep the difficulty" and KOTFE's rescale, both are trying to animate long dead zombies.

[Lodinn]

It has to do with a general lack of interest in ops as an activity.

Correct. There was some blog post about raids being unviable to develop and maintain (too much effort, not everyone even does them, even if so, like 1-2% of player base would do those for actual raiding rather than story, seeing content etc). Ops being old doesn't help either, of course, but the issue is everlasting BW lack of resources. They develop story? Everything else just goes awry. They try to fix ops? Story bit is half as long as it probably should be.

Give them 10x people and money they're having now (spoiler: not going to happen) and they could actually put some effort into not-so-popular content, INCLUDING 'promoting' it to players.

[Gaspodia]

Yes, I'm not saying that people are not doing them anymore, but like you said, the overall interest has declined. Even WOW suffer from it.

 

Yes, I agree on that, it's just with limited staff, Bioware can't keep all the pieces going, so they need to find a focus, I don't think the current focus is really correct due to the problem you have said, but going other ways might not be better.

 

I'm not a raider myself but I do enjoy some challenging new ops+rock off the old ones to get the decor/mount I once couldn't get. The current system is just horrible to me.

 

Ah, *now* we get to your real gripe at last. I'd say this thread has nothing to do with your thinking Ops are outdated and everything to do with your being mad that you missed the window of opportunity to faceroll ops to get all the decorations /achievements you wanted. I have nothing bad to say about that; it's a perfectly legitimate gripe, but there was no need to make (and defend) nonsensical statements about ops being outdated to make your actual point

[Slowpokeking]

Ah, *now* we get to your real gripe at last. I'd say this thread has nothing to do with your thinking Ops are outdated and everything to do with your being mad that you missed the window of opportunity to faceroll ops to get all the decorations /achievements you wanted. I have nothing bad to say about that; it's a perfectly legitimate gripe, but there was no need to make (and defend) nonsensical statements about ops being outdated to make your actual point

 

Not just that, I feel very painful to find a group and have a good fight without enduring the drama/spend the same effort on the long dead zombie ops which has been done so many times(a couple of months). It's not funny anymore.

 

Seriously, I'm not interested in most of those drops now and I could buy some of them from GTN.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Gaspodia]

Not just that, I feel very painful to find a group and have a good fight without enduring the drama/spend the same effort on the long dead zombie ops which has been done so many times(a couple of months). It's not funny anymore.

 

Seriously, I'm not interested in most of those drops now and I could buy some of them from GTN.

 

We run these ops all the time in our guild and never manage to reach a drama level greater than someone forgetting to put their gear on. Most pug groups are drama free too, but if you don't want to take the risk why not join a guild that runs ops and do them that way? You've had one bad drama experience, which is of course very unfortunate, but in no way is that representative of the vast majority of ops runs - both pug and guild based.

[Khevar]

No, I think a healthy MMO should bring out new content even though I might not run it at first place. The old ones should become much easier rather than the current zombie status.

Here's why I don't believe you and I think this is all a red herring.

 

Let's take a look at your OP:

Sure Bioware didn't release new ops, but I think current ops style also require some work. Like removing the tank-dps-heal trio from all the ops or make all classes be able to do all three roles and reduce the size of ops group.

Notice you're not asking for new ops? You even acknowledge the fact that BW didn't add any. You are specifically asking to change existing ops. "Current zombie status" is simply a red herring. How does making existing ops "unzombie them"? They're still old content.

 

Then there's this, where you're talking about revamping existing ops:

It is, because gamers today don't want to waste so much time on such effort on others, they want "let's rock out whenever we want" game. This is why MMO is declining, even WOW.

 

I'm not saying remove the trinity system is the only thing we need, just a way to reduce the pain, or make every class be able to do all three roles with easy gear(remove specific stats for tank gears).

Then there's this, where you specifically talk about how the re-scaling to 65 was a mistake. (You're not talking about new ops yet, it's all been about changing existing ones).

I think Bioware made a mistake by rescale the levels. HC raiders don't like old content and casual players can't do them easily anymore like they did in the 3.0 cycle.

 

It would be better to keep the level and make some achievement system for people to get.

This was your answer as to why (EZ loot):

I want to enjoy and get some money/token/decor/mount if possible.

And then here we have this one, where you finally start talking about bringing out new ops, in response to posters that disagree with the idea of reducing the challenge of current ops.

Yep, I think old ops should have been faceroll like they were in 3.0, no point to bring it up to keep some "difficulty", if they want it, bring out new ones.

I find it disingenuous that you have shifted your "message" into "a healthy MMO should bring out new content", when it started with "I want the ops to be easier so I can get loot"

 

Note that I'm NOT saying you shouldn't ask for "Easier Ops So I Can Get Loot". Feel free -- it's an open forum. But I am suggesting that you be straightforward and honest about it.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Khevar

[Slowpokeking]

We run these ops all the time in our guild and never manage to reach a drama level greater than someone forgetting to put their gear on. Most pug groups are drama free too, but if you don't want to take the risk why not join a guild that runs ops and do them that way? You've had one bad drama experience, which is of course very unfortunate, but in no way is that representative of the vast majority of ops runs - both pug and guild based.

See, a guild? Many pug groups have drama like DC/waiting/tank sucks, not just argument. Especially if you try HM(EC, TFB, DF, DP) or NIM, good luck.

 

Because my guild don't have the enough interest to do many ops? If you have to join a specific PVE guild for long dead zombie ops

, then it proves that there are serious problem with the current ops system. It doesn't have a healthy lifespan.

[Slowpokeking]

Here's why I don't believe you and I think this is all a red herring.

 

Let's take a look at your OP:

 

Notice you're not asking for new ops? You even acknowledge the fact that BW didn't add any. You are specifically asking to change existing ops. "Current zombie status" is simply a red herring. How does making existing ops "unzombie them"? They're still old content.

 

Then there's this, where you're talking about revamping existing ops:

 

Then there's this, where you specifically talk about how the re-scaling to 65 was a mistake. (You're not talking about new ops yet, it's all been about changing existing ones).

 

This was your answer as to why (EZ loot):

 

And then here we have this one, where you finally start talking about bringing out new ops, in response to posters that disagree with the idea of reducing the challenge of current ops.

 

I find it disingenuous that you have shifted your "message" into "a healthy MMO should bring out new content", when it started with "I want the ops to be easier so I can get loot"

 

Note that I'm NOT saying you shouldn't ask for "Easier Ops So I Can Get Loot". Feel free -- it's an open forum. But I am suggesting that you be straightforward and honest about it.

 

I didn't state in the op because I know it's not likely to happen based on the current status. They are long dead, if you still want to use them as the way for people to "find challenge" and "get top gear", it is no different than animate zombies from the dead.

 

I am not a raider, but I didn't mean to hurt others' fun, so in order to get the old ops into rest and let raiders find challenge, the best way and the healthy way is to bring out new ops. It's just not likely to happen.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I've read a few ( and skipped a few ) of the pages in this thread and I can't personally work out what slowpoke is actually asking for or what his point is ... translation anyone?

[Slowpokeking]

I've read a few ( and skipped a few ) of the pages in this thread and I can't personally work out what slowpoke is actually asking for or what his point is ... translation anyone?

 

1) Current Ops system is bad.

2) Raiders want new content so it's not gonna impress them.

3) For casual players, it's not fun to go through such old content with such effort plus a lot of possible drama/dc/waiting on the way. Some of them don't like raid at all.

4) New content would be the best, but Bioware don't really have enough staff to spend effort on it, and modern players don't like to raid that much. It's understandable that they don't put their limited resource for it.

5) It would be better to redo the old ops, like make it tactical or reduce the requirement of specific role(especially tank) to reduce the drama and at least let us focus on the game.

6) It would be nice if they could just leave the old ops or give us an option to do the old ones in their original level without level sync, for people to collect stuff that they couldn't before. It's not hurting anyone.It's also not fun to run these really old ops for top gears.

7) The healthiest MMO lifespan would be leave the old ops intact and keep releasing new ones, sadly it's not the case and the current system is hurting both sides.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

1) Current Ops system is bad.

2) Raiders want new content so it's not gonna impress them.

3) For casual players, it's not fun to go through such old content with such effort plus a lot of possible drama/dc/waiting on the way. Some of them don't like raid at all.

4) New content would be the best, but Bioware don't really have enough staff to spend effort on it, and modern players don't like to raid that much. It's understandable that they don't put their limited resource for it.

5) It would be better to redo the old ops, like make it tactical or reduce the requirement of specific role(especially tank) to reduce the drama and at least let us focus on the game.

6) It would be nice if they could just leave the old ops or give us an option to do the old ones in their original level without level sync, for people to collect stuff that they couldn't before. It's not hurting anyone.It's also not fun to run these really old ops for top gears.

7) The healthiest MMO lifespan would be leave the old ops intact and keep releasing new ones, sadly it's not the case and the current system is hurting both sides.

 

Oh so you just don't like the fact operations were upscaled? *shrug* too bad really because the old ops seem far more popular than they ever were once they started falling behind the level cap.

 

They aren't even remotely difficult now either. You have boslter to remove gear and you can still do them from 50.

 

The only limiting factor will be less people to run them with and that's not because of the way operations are now but more of a "state of the game" on a whole. People are leaving for many reasons - changing existing operations to a "tactical" style won't make this better, it will make it worse as even more people lose faith in the g ame due to even more dumbing down of the gameplay.

 

You would soon only be left with people interested in watching a glorified interactive movie and I really doubt that's enough of a population to maintain an MMO. I'm beginning to doubt the current population can maintain an MMO so let's not try make it worse and drive even more players away.

 

The people who would benefit or enjoy operations changed to tactical already have the most amount of content to do in this game, they are the least likely to unsubscribe due to having nothing to do.

[Stradlin]

Of course they are. What sort of a question is that? It has been year(s) since game got any new raid content at all. It won't get any in foreseeable future. Ops designer left for new Mass Effect, lol.

[Slowpokeking]

Oh so you just don't like the fact operations were upscaled? *shrug* too bad really because the old ops seem far more popular than they ever were once they started falling behind the level cap.

 

They aren't even remotely difficult now either. You have boslter to remove gear and you can still do them from 50.

 

The only limiting factor will be less people to run them with and that's not because of the way operations are now but more of a "state of the game" on a whole. People are leaving for many reasons - changing existing operations to a "tactical" style won't make this better, it will make it worse as even more people lose faith in the g ame due to even more dumbing down of the gameplay.

 

You would soon only be left with people interested in watching a glorified interactive movie and I really doubt that's enough of a population to maintain an MMO. I'm beginning to doubt the current population can maintain an MMO so let's not try make it worse and drive even more players away.

 

The people who would benefit or enjoy operations changed to tactical already have the most amount of content to do in this game, they are the least likely to unsubscribe due to having nothing to do.

 

Really? I found the SM ops aren't much different because there is GF, just more ppl doing EV and KP HM for the gears.

 

They are a reason, no new raid content=more raid players leave. Making it tactical would at least let us spend less time on "FIND/WAIT A TANK" and focus on the game itself. How would these people not enjoy it? They don't run the ops for challenge, but for gears. Otherwise they won't do EV/KP HM or do GF SM ops.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Really? I found the SM ops aren't much different because there is GF, just more ppl doing EV and KP HM for the gears.

 

They are a reason, no new raid content=more raid players leave. Making it tactical would at least let us spend less time on "FIND/WAIT A TANK" and focus on the game itself. How would these people not enjoy it? They don't run the ops for challenge, but for gears. Otherwise they won't do EV/KP HM or do GF SM ops.

 

People have a variety of reasons to do it though and challenge and strategy are going to be one of them.

 

Your suggestion is dumbing down content more than it already has been which is ideally taking something away from people who enjoy it the way it is to give it to people who already have more than enough to enjoy in the game.

At this stage you don't want to remove anything from anyone for the risk of losing even more players.

 

Mechanically your idea is a rather large change also due to the amount of tank mechanics in the operations that I just don't see it as a possibility that it will ever be the case if operations are being so ignored that they won't develop new ones anyway. They would effectively have to recode each boss encounter to avoid having any tank specific mechanics in it ... not just as simple as adding a few med stations to the encounters.

[Slowpokeking]

People have a variety of reasons to do it though and challenge and strategy are going to be one of them.

 

Your suggestion is dumbing down content more than it already has been which is ideally taking something away from people who enjoy it the way it is to give it to people who already have more than enough to enjoy in the game.

At this stage you don't want to remove anything from anyone for the risk of losing even more players.

 

Mechanically your idea is a rather large change also due to the amount of tank mechanics in the operations that I just don't see it as a possibility that it will ever be the case if operations are being so ignored that they won't develop new ones anyway. They would effectively have to recode each boss encounter to avoid having any tank specific mechanics in it ... not just as simple as adding a few med stations to the encounters.

If they want raid challenge why would they pick SWTOR, which hasn't released any ops in 1.5 year and even during SoR there weren't many people raiding ToS according to previous posts? Why are most of the ppl doing EV/KP HM and other SM?

 

Making the group easier would let ppl spend less effort on waiting/finding some role and could do the ops quicker and focus on the game itself, how is it wrong?

 

They could also make every class be able to tank without special "tank gears" if remove tank is too hard.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[MeNaCe-NZ]

If they want raid challenge why would they pick SWTOR, which hasn't released any ops in 1.5 year and even during SoR there weren't many people raiding ToS according to previous posts? Why are most of the ppl doing EV/KP HM and other SM?

 

Your evidence is fairly circumstantial at best ... what makes you think everyone is doing EV/KP HM? If people want to just raid they'll run whatever is going, if the op of the week is EV/KP though then they'll certainly run it for the 224 gear. Also at least with EV and to a degree KP the difficulty in HM is about SM level of the other operations so hat si why these two tend to get the most popularity for HM ... they can be pugged in HM.

 

I fail to see how making tactical operations are going to help that?

 

Also I don't think anyone is coming to SWToR for raiding anymore , the idea is stop even less leaving which your idea is going to have the reverse effect on.

 

Making the group easier would let ppl spend less effort on waiting/finding some role and could do the ops quicker and focus on the game itself, how is it wrong?

 

Sure it would be better for the people left after those that think such a change is detrimental leave ( on top of those that have already left ). They'll have fun until until the numbers dwindle down so far that the game won't be sustainable to make any new content.

 

 

They could also make every class be able to tank without special "tank gears" if remove tank is too hard.

 

You have bolster for SM so you can ideally do that now by picking a tank stance couldn't you for classes that have one? Yet people don't ... not because the gear is the issue but more because they don't know how to tank and don't want to learn or find the prospect too daunting. That's my opinion anyway else we would see more tanks as I see it.

[robertthebard]

People have a variety of reasons to do it though and challenge and strategy are going to be one of them.

 

Your suggestion is dumbing down content more than it already has been which is ideally taking something away from people who enjoy it the way it is to give it to people who already have more than enough to enjoy in the game.

At this stage you don't want to remove anything from anyone for the risk of losing even more players.

 

Mechanically your idea is a rather large change also due to the amount of tank mechanics in the operations that I just don't see it as a possibility that it will ever be the case if operations are being so ignored that they won't develop new ones anyway. They would effectively have to recode each boss encounter to avoid having any tank specific mechanics in it ... not just as simple as adding a few med stations to the encounters.

 

I find myself in agreement here. There are bosses in some of these raids that require tank swaps, for example, that would have to be completely recoded, or removed, which would defeat the purpose of having the bosses in there anyway.

 

The best bet is to just leave 'em alone. New stuff does need added, but the old stuff can just be left alone, it's fine as is, and people have commented that they are enjoying some of the older content because it's not just a faceroll.

[Slowpokeking]

Your evidence is fairly circumstantial at best ... what makes you think everyone is doing EV/KP HM? If people want to just raid they'll run whatever is going, if the op of the week is EV/KP though then they'll certainly run it for the 224 gear. Also at least with EV and to a degree KP the difficulty in HM is about SM level of the other operations so hat si why these two tend to get the most popularity for HM ... they can be pugged in HM.

 

I fail to see how making tactical operations are going to help that?

 

Also I don't think anyone is coming to SWToR for raiding anymore , the idea is stop even less leaving which your idea is going to have the reverse effect on.

 

Yes, the gear is what matters to them. Making tactical ops would make these people find the run more enjoyable and could spend less time on tanks

 

So there are only 2 major groups, those who want raid and left because of no new content, and people who don't care much about challenge and they just want some quick gear/comm.

 

Sure it would be better for the people left after those that think such a change is detrimental leave ( on top of those that have already left ). They'll have fun until until the numbers dwindle down so far that the game won't be sustainable to make any new content.

Why would people who stayed still care for it? If they want raid and challenge then most of these people must have long gone. We are still doing 3-4 years old zombie ops, these ops should have been put into rest long ago in a healthy MMO cycle.

 

 

You have bolster for SM so you can ideally do that now by picking a tank stance couldn't you for classes that have one? Yet people don't ... not because the gear is the issue but more because they don't know how to tank and don't want to learn or find the prospect too daunting. That's my opinion anyway else we would see more tanks as I see it.

 

Many of them can tank in SM, but they don't have the ability to do so. Also some tanks you found doesn't know what to do, which would be a waste of time.

[Khevar]

Yes, the gear is what matters to them. Making tactical ops would make these people find the run more enjoyable and could spend less time on tanks

You know, as long we we're all making unsubstantiated and biased claims that are not backed up by any shred of proof, I'll join in.

 

Raiders are buying my stims and adrenals like they are going out of style. I have a veritable army of alts to run gathering missions, and despite this, I cannot keep them in stock. They FLY off the shelves.

 

So.

 

Ops seem pretty popular in it's current incarnation (e.g. scaled to level 65, dropping 216/220/224 gear). Why change something that seems to be working?

 

At the very least, you should wait until there are NEW ops, then go on your campaign to nerf all the old ones.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Yes, the gear is what matters to them. Making tactical ops would make these people find the run more enjoyable and could spend less time on tanks

 

Oh so the gear and not the content? What then are they using the gear for if they don't want to do harder content?

Why not just go another step and just give the gear away all for comms gained from solo content ... who even needs challenging group content.

 

 

So there are only 2 major groups, those who want raid and left because of no new content, and people who don't care much about challenge and they just want some quick gear/comm.

 

So if they don't care about challenge why are they raiding at all? Oh right, the gear that they want but don't want to use for anything because they don't want challenge thus won't be doing HM/NiM.

 

Why would people who stayed still care for it?

 

Ask them ( there were a few posting in this thread i believe ) because clearly there are still people doing it, your change would ruin it for them.

 

If they want raid and challenge then most of these people must have long gone.

 

How can they be long gone is you just said people were running HM EV/KP?

 

We are still doing 3-4 years old zombie ops, these ops should have been put into rest long ago in a healthy MMO cycle.

 

Well this setup is the best setup imo but it does need new operations to back it up. Making things tactical won't make it better, it will make it worse.

 

Many of them can tank in SM, but they don't have the ability to do so. Also some tanks you found doesn't know what to do, which would be a waste of time.

 

That just makes no sense. They can tank SM but they don't have the ability to tank ( so they can tank but they can't tank heh ).

[Crossward]

 

How can they be long gone is you just said people were running HM EV/KP?.

 

I'm not on the OP's side, but I can answer this question: HM EV and KP are very easy compared to Hard Modes that came in later patches and expansions. The difference is night and day. The idea isn't that the 'casual' raiders are necessarily locked into Story Mode, its that they take the path of least resistance to get gear. Compare EV/KP to something like HM DF or god forbid ToS/Rav.

 

In short, HM KP/EV can easily be cleared by a PuG group that's capable of clearing story mode raids in GF, and rewards 220/224 gear depending on the weekly HM. Other HMs or NiMs typically require a dedicated raid team with a schedule and an attitude towards progression. Many, but not all, of those have left the game.

 

 

That's what I believe he meant from his rebuttal, at least.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I'm not on the OP's side, but I can answer this question: HM EV and KP are very easy compared to Hard Modes that came in later patches and expansions. The difference is night and day. The idea isn't that the 'casual' raiders are necessarily locked into Story Mode, its that they take the path of least resistance to get gear. Compare EV/KP to something like HM DF or god forbid ToS/Rav.

 

In short, HM KP/EV can easily be cleared by a PuG group that's capable of clearing story mode raids in GF, and rewards 220/224 gear depending on the weekly HM. Other HMs or NiMs typically require a dedicated raid team with a schedule and an attitude towards progression. Many, but not all, of those have left the game.

 

 

That's what I believe he meant from his rebuttal, at least.

 

But the point is people are running harder content to, I assume, get gear for harder content still or are people doing content they don't like ( challenging content if slowpokes concept is to believe ) just to get gear they have no use for simply because it's their? I don't buy it.