Why premade is a problem?

[Floplag]

Cross server WZ is the only way to solve problem of long wait times and making groups q only matched agaist group q and solo avainst solo, but i dont seem them wanting to do this.

 

Its not the only answer, mergers would also solve this, and they have already liad the foundation for this with the toggle flag option. I believe thats where they are going personally, why else would they do that.

[Floplag]

How can a solo know if he refuse to spend the countdown laying the line, that the other side is NOT a premade but used the 30 sec cd to lay down some teamwork.

BAM! a loss....and a cry for premades

 

 

Ther is NOTHING even remotely unfair about Premades. after all grouping up in pvp is how it is done here.

 

You don't go 1 vs4 or 8 hence this is about group wanting to win or do what pvpers demand the rest of plyers to, prep to win, yet once they are in a gropu they stop being social and hide in their social " I'm a pvper that plays MY way" and becomes unable to even communicate in his own team.

 

BUT cry for foul....allways,

 

 

IF player A and B have the same options, and CHOOSE seperate ways, then none are wrong, even if player A thinks B is wrong

 

Its not hard to tell when people are actually on comms together and are working as a team, it really isnt. There is a huge difference in response time and targeting effectiveness. I could count on one hand the number of times a pug group could react even close to that level of effectiveness thru ops chat.

 

Doesnt matter really it is what it is at this point i would just appreciate dispensing with the bull on the subject.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Floplag

[jedcjedcjedc]

These guys have apparently never seen an Ordin Latina premade

[Ruhun]

These guys have apparently never seen an Ordin Latina premade

 

There also used to be an awful, awful Brazilian guild that ran premades.

I forgot the server, but any team with that premade would lose 100% of the time.

[aerockyul]

There also used to be an awful, awful Brazilian guild that ran premades.

I forgot the server, but any team with that premade would lose 100% of the time.

 

That's the case with most premades...there are more bad ones than good ones. This doesn't mesh well with the prevailing sentiment of people who had one bad experience with one of the really good ones stomping them.

Edited March 15, 2016 by aerockyul

[peepa]

 

Simply, make premades ALWAYS meet premades. That would suffice for most unranked reg matches -- so when the queue system detects a premade queueing on one side, it won't pop until there is another premade on the other side. Seems like a good compromise, and most solo queuers won't mind this situation at all.

 

Fair deal, no?

 

That's a pretty good solution. Something along those lines. If there are groups out there they get matched first with other groups. If no groups available then it fills the team with available players.

That way people in premades don't have their wait times impacted. The people that just want to solo queue or jump on and fight people for some matches don't always get tossed in vs premades.

 

That way it gives solo people something without having the premade minded people having to give up anything.

[Dogberto]

Or rather than complaining about the group always beating you, you can join a group on your side and return the favor. Kinda the point of an MMO, to group up and play with friends. You should think what you can do to prevent getting smacked by premades every time before you complain about them. The obvious answer is to get your own premade and take the other on.

[KashyyykForest]

On the one hand you have the pro argument, "its an MMO", "playing with friends", "its within the rules", etc...

On the other you have the anti point of view, "its not fair". "i shouldn't have to face groups as solo", premades belong in ranked", etc...

Who's right... BOTH!

 

I used to be firmly in the "anti" camp but just as reg pvp has to be new user friendly, there also has to be a place for teams to prepare for ranked play. I've come to realize that there simply is no solution to it, we dont have the population at this point for separate queues and teams need the ability to play as a team to prepare for ranked play. Until such time as they fix PvP and hopefully bring players back this is what it is and reg WZs are the catch all of PvP.

 

The 2 things that gets me the most is the premade guys trying to deny their advantage and confusing winning with skill. I have said many times i would challenge many of you to play solo more in addition to group play cause playing with guards/heals makes you lazy. Even I as a lousy merc can facetank with that kind of backup, it doesn't make me a better player. If you were smart you would help build the community more instead of just farming it but very few have any interest in that. Props to those who do

 

Solo players, we have 2 choices, join a team or take our chances. Alas my reputation for being outspoken against some of these teams means I'm staying solo as most of them have me on their focus list, which is fine for me i went solo for a reason, to get better, facing teams under focus makes me better, i got my wish. Sometimes a little too much but its my own doing. Of late ive chosen to leave some matches that were obviously imbalanced, there no fun or benefit to taking part in them anymore. Either way complaining about it ad nauseam is a double edged sword, if you get your wish you also get significantly longer queue times due to lesser people in queue as solo. Is that really what you want?

 

This is simply the current state of reg PvP, I've reached acceptance.

 

This is pretty much where I'm at, except that I did join a decent pvp guild finally. I played my (primarily tk spec) sage to valor 100 pretty much solo for the vast majority of the time, now I'm grouped more than solo probably, but it's still a fairly even split. If I see that our guild is stomping the imps, I get bored quick and would prefer to try my luck with solo q. Imp premades in q? Team up. Love having that flexibility, otherwise I'd just log for a while probably.

 

What you say about getting better due to solo play is true. I have pretty strong awareness of where to kite away to, etc, if the you know what hits the fan, due to pugging so much in my past. There is a downside I've noticed though. Sometimes I kite away or los my healer thinking I'm going to die from the incoming dps, when in reality, they've got my back. I'm not used to that feeling, takes some getting used to. But I can see how it is true that if you only ever q with a group your reaction to your environment could be slowed, because you don't need that super quick reflex to save your hide all the time.

[foxmob]

What you say about getting better due to solo play is true..

 

not really. some specs/ACs more than others. but, for example, he's running around on a merc/mando. you can learn how to work it solo on that AC, but it's a completely different game from having guard and heals and just a grp of ppl who play with you. I would completely respec my utilities if I were going in with a premade all the time. I would do significantly less healing and more time dpsing. there are just sooo many "bad habits" you develop going solo as compared to being in a grp. the big ones are trying to kite/isolate, wasting gcds healing and taking the wrong utilities.

 

I don't mean to say you don't learn anything going solo. but it really does create bad habits for grp play, which is theoretically or ideally what the end game is.

[jedcjedcjedc]

not really. some specs/ACs more than others. but, for example, he's running around on a merc/mando. you can learn how to work it solo on that AC, but it's a completely different game from having guard and heals and just a grp of ppl who play with you. I would completely respec my utilities if I were going in with a premade all the time. I would do significantly less healing and more time dpsing. there are just sooo many "bad habits" you develop going solo as compared to being in a grp. the big ones are trying to kite/isolate, wasting gcds healing and taking the wrong utilities.

 

I don't mean to say you don't learn anything going solo. but it really does create bad habits for grp play, which is theoretically or ideally what the end game is.

 

that's only because merc off heals are paenus

[foxmob]

that's only because merc off heals are paenus

 

lol yes. they are. but no. when you get used to taking care of yourself, you get in the habit of playing that way. wasting gcds on heals instead of being in range of the healer. taking kiting utilities instead of shield utilities, which is just a different style of play, but it's how the spec works best in a grp as opposed to the solo guy who is as much concerned about self preservation and avoiding the melee as dealing dmg.

[KashyyykForest]

not really. some specs/ACs more than others. but, for example, he's running around on a merc/mando. you can learn how to work it solo on that AC, but it's a completely different game from having guard and heals and just a grp of ppl who play with you. I would completely respec my utilities if I were going in with a premade all the time. I would do significantly less healing and more time dpsing. there are just sooo many "bad habits" you develop going solo as compared to being in a grp. the big ones are trying to kite/isolate, wasting gcds healing and taking the wrong utilities.

 

I don't mean to say you don't learn anything going solo. but it really does create bad habits for grp play, which is theoretically or ideally what the end game is.

 

What I meant is just that solo play reinforces knowing your surroundings, using them to your advantage, being 'slippery', because at any given time you could be defeated so quickly. My guildmates tend to have more deaths generally then me in warzones(that's not to knock them at all, they are good players), due to a tendency as I see it at times to kind of 'stand there' expecting guard+heals to just do most the work.

[jedcjedcjedc]

lol yes. they are. but no. when you get used to taking care of yourself, you get in the habit of playing that way. wasting gcds on heals instead of being in range of the healer. taking kiting utilities instead of shield utilities, which is just a different style of play, but it's how the spec works best in a grp as opposed to the solo guy who is as much concerned about self preservation and avoiding the melee as dealing dmg.

 

Idk, energy rebounder is kind of <3. I don't think I'd ever run a dps spec without it (insert rant about how it should be baseline like AP PT here)

 

Of course that could just be because I get attacked to the point where my shield is pretty ridiculous uptime lol.

[KashyyykForest]

Idk, energy rebounder is kind of <3. I don't think I'd ever run a dps spec without it (insert rant about how it should be baseline like AP PT here)

 

Of course that could just be because I get attacked to the point where my shield is pretty ridiculous uptime lol.

 

Yeah idk, maybe im doing it wrong but I just keep a lot of the utilities the same whether grouped/ungrouped lol. I'm sage, so for example when am I not going to take knockback root? Or Egress on force speed? Or cast on the move? Or the heal utility when you have bubble up? I notice that for arenas specifically there could be times when you'd want to change maybe a couple things though, but I don't much care for arenas anyway as it just favors certain classes from the outset, or at least they are certainly easier to play in that environment.

[kweassa]

Yeah idk, maybe im doing it wrong but I just keep a lot of the utilities the same whether grouped/ungrouped lol. I'm sage, so for example when am I not going to take knockback root? Or Egress on force speed? Or cast on the move? Or the heal utility when you have bubble up? I notice that for arenas specifically there could be times when you'd want to change maybe a couple things though, but I don't much care for arenas anyway as it just favors certain classes from the outset, or at least they are certainly easier to play in that environment.

 

The term you are looking for is 'lazy'. What others referr to as 'different play style', simply means 'lazy', because the whole precontext of this discussion is that everyone is assuming their own premade is fighting a group of non-premades, which usually they can just faceroll the keyboard and still not get killed with the guard+multiheal overhealing gameplay meta.

 

So in actuality, the term 'premade' is by itself another way of saying 'pocket heal slaves'. Sure, from time to time you may see troll premades totally consisted of sent/maras or DPS trooper/BHs, but aside from joke/troll teams, all the 'team play' the premades say they like so much, is actually nothing more than an assortment of heals behind their back.

 

So basically, the entire motivation for premades in the first place is lazy and easy wins. You can't really talk about stuff like "team tactics" or "team builds" when there is no regular amount of team vs. team level fights in the first place.

[jedcjedcjedc]

The term you are looking for is 'lazy'. What others referr to as 'different play style', simply means 'lazy', because the whole precontext of this discussion is that everyone is assuming their own premade is fighting a group of non-premades, which usually they can just faceroll the keyboard and still not get killed with the guard+multiheal overhealing gameplay meta.

 

So in actuality, the term 'premade' is by itself another way of saying 'pocket heal slaves'. Sure, from time to time you may see troll premades totally consisted of sent/maras or DPS trooper/BHs, but aside from joke/troll teams, all the 'team play' the premades say they like so much, is actually nothing more than an assortment of heals behind their back.

 

So basically, the entire motivation for premades in the first place is lazy and easy wins. You can't really talk about stuff like "team tactics" or "team builds" when there is no regular amount of team vs. team level fights in the first place.

You make an awful lot of assumptions. As in, A lot of awful assumptions. People relying on their teammates and working together for a common goal? unheard of! ban that cheater this instant! he must be bad because he trusts the healer to do their job

Yeah idk, maybe im doing it wrong but I just keep a lot of the utilities the same whether grouped/ungrouped lol. I'm sage, so for example when am I not going to take knockback root? Or Egress on force speed? Or cast on the move? Or the heal utility when you have bubble up? I notice that for arenas specifically there could be times when you'd want to change maybe a couple things though, but I don't much care for arenas anyway as it just favors certain classes from the outset, or at least they are certainly easier to play in that environment.

Ya I'm kind of the same way about sorc. others play around with other builds, but I don't see how you can afford NOT to pick pretty much the exact spec. The only one I could see changing to experiment would be electric bindings for something like suppression or the 10% bubble (for healing). other than that, sith defiance changes to force suffusion for heals or tempest mastery for lightning. It's a class that really feels like utility choices are made for you just by picking your spec.

Edited March 17, 2016 by jedcjedcjedc

[kweassa]

Or rather than complaining about the group always beating you, you can join a group on your side and return the favor. Kinda the point of an MMO, to group up and play with friends. You should think what you can do to prevent getting smacked by premades every time before you complain about them. The obvious answer is to get your own premade and take the other on.

 

For the gazillionth time, it's a non-issue.

 

The "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" is not a solution at all -- it's a cynicism. People should not be forced a certain choice to be made OUTSIDE OF THE PvP COMBAT to be able to win. Its ludicrous to say the least.

 

Imagine that we have a playground where kids play baseball. Kids follow the most basic and common of playground rules here -- the leader of the team pick out one person from whomever is at the playground at the moment, in turns. That's how kids play it.

 

Then, one day, 4 members of a local little league team move into the neighborhood, and insisit that they're always going to be in a team together. First the kids try it that way, and then realize there's like, no way to beat the odds at all. So the kids insist that they break up the team -- they're all good players, so if they break up and split the good players among each team, then it'd be a pretty cool and fair game.

 

The 4-kid "premade" goes, "Nope. Sorry. We make this team on purpose to win. So if you don't like how you always lose to us pros, you can do the same and go join some other little league team and make your own 'premade'"

 

So this is basically what you are saying. I mean, premade players don't even deny that its unfair. They've even got the audacity to admit it openly that they make premades to win, and they don't like fighting hectic odds against other teams -- which explains why team ranked queue is always so empty.

 

How is "if you don't like it, go do the same thing" even a solution?

 

The most likely and realistic response from the rest of the kids in the playground would be, "Yeah? Go f**k yourself. We ain't playing with you no mo'. "

 

**Guess why the PvP queue times are getting longer.

[kweassa]

You make an awful lot of assumptions. As in, A lot of awful assumptions. People relying on their teammates and working together for a common goal? unheard of! ban that cheater this instant! he must be bad because he trusts the healer to do their job

 

Who the fek cares about your personal goals? As if that somehow justifies an organized and systematic ROFLstomping against casual players. The mob has goals. So does ISIS. Heck my dog's got goals. Goals have nothing to do with fair or unfair.

 

All I really care about is whether the games are fair or not, and for the sake of people who're on the receiving end of the krapfest that happens when a bunch of wannabe clowns in these self-proclaimed 'PvP guilds' do shi* that's got nothing to do with PvP in the first place.

 

"PvP" my arse. Premades constitute a team to secure a win even before the fight happens in most cases, and they've got the galls to call that "Player versus Player"?

 

Not in my book.

Edited March 17, 2016 by kweassa

[jedcjedcjedc]

Who the fek cares about their personal goals? As if that somehow makes wrong stuff better.

The mob has goals. So does ISIS.

 

All I really care about is whether the games are fair or not, and for the sake of people who're on the receiving end of the krapfest that happens when a bunch of clowns in these self-proclaimed wannabes in 'PvP guilds' do shi* that's got nothing to do with PvP in the first place.

 

You like accomplishing common goals? No reason to not be able to do so under the same conditions as others.

 

Simple deal.

they do it under the same condition as others. unless you are assuming the ques are already split in your example. And how is doing pvp in a pvp guild nothing to do with pvp? this is just seeming more and more like a personal vendetta here.

[kweassa]

they do it under the same condition as others. unless you are assuming the ques are already split in your example. And how is doing pvp in a pvp guild nothing to do with pvp? this is just seeming more and more like a personal vendetta here.

 

1. Do you care to deny setting up a premade in a game mode which predominantly individual, casual players queue into, is a massive advantage secured before the process of the fight itself?

 

2. Do you care to deny that most group of wannabes known as "PvP guilds", already know that the reg WZs mostly cosnsit of casual, single players?

 

3. Do you care to deny most premades form up with prior knowledge of above, fully aware that a premade will usually meet single players much more often than other competing premades, and therefore can expect much easier wins?

 

...

 

Do I really need to ask you for your confirmation on the above three questions, to know the answers?

 

You can make any number of excuses you want. The problem is that none of those excuses can address the simple fact/tendency that most premades answer "no, I cannot deny" to above three questions.

 

I'd condone unequal, clandestine mode of combat in open world. But this is instanced WZ. You start fair on both sides, or not at all. When you go so far as to cause unfairness ON PURPOSE, that's not PvP.

[Yorioko]

1. Do you care to deny setting up a premade in a game mode which predominantly individual, casual players queue into, is a massive advantage secured before the process of the fight itself?

 

2. Do you care to deny that most group of wannabes known as "PvP guilds", already know that the reg WZs mostly cosnsit of casual, single players?

 

3. Do you care to deny most premades form up with prior knowledge of above, fully aware that a premade will usually meet single players much more often than other competing premades, and therefore can expect much easier wins?

 

...

 

Do I really need to ask you for your confirmation on the above three questions, to know the answers?

 

You can make any number of excuses you want. The problem is that none of those excuses can address the simple fact/tendency that most premades answer "no, I cannot deny" to above three questions.

 

I'd condone unequal, clandestine mode of combat in open world. But this is instanced WZ. You start fair on both sides, or not at all. When you go so far as to cause unfairness ON PURPOSE, that's not PvP.

 

 

1) It is an advantage but in no way an unfair one, as there is nothing to prevent this solo player from teaming up him self

2) and this matter how?

3) this is a false premesis question as even solo queued players ARE GROUPED for the match, you make it sound like it is group vs single individual which is wrong.

 

Becuse nothing prevents anyone from grouping up then the fact that some do and some dont is not nor will be a real issue, especially in an MMO

[KashyyykForest]

1)3) this is a false premesis question as even solo queued players ARE GROUPED for the match, you make it sound like it is group vs single individual which is wrong.

 

While technically you are 'grouped' while pugging, how often does a pug group as a whole act like one? It's like the wild, wild west out there.

[Gretzel_Eis]

They've even got the audacity to admit it openly that they make premades to win

 

What the **** is wrong with playing to win? You go to war with another country; you want everyone to play fair in that situation? Yeah people are going to do what they can to win; that's the whole point of a COMPETITION in the first place. As long as people aren't cheating or exploiting, then what is the issue? I'll be honest, I can't much recall seeing someone actually getting upset at people trying to win in a player vs player environment and I played WoW for several years on a pvp server, where I got to deal with my fair share of completely insane people with this concept that what they say should go and anyone not playing the game the way they want to is wrong or cheating or some silly ******** like that.

 

You want fair? Cool, fairness is a nice goal to strive for. The reality is that once the foundation is set; you all have this equal chance to go out and get things done. When you log in, does the game specifically flag your character so you can't join groups? Do you queue into a WZ and get a big fat popup telling you that there's a premade who want to get **** done so they can get their points and gear up and its going to put you specifically on the opposite team so you can get smeared?

 

I know this isn't WoW but it is a clone and its got ranked warzones so I'll say to you what I used to say to people who would complain about this stuff back then; Unranked BGs are for gearing. Its the small time **** for messing around. You want fair, serious ****? That's where the ranked stuff comes in. That's where both teams are going to be geared and know how to play their classes (at least in my experience that's how it was). I saw so many people getting so *********** mad over premades, just throwing a fit on the forums or logging alts to scream at me and guildmates and the I always told them that non-rated was there to gear up, and who wants to deal with loss after loss after loss with garbage worthless teams full of idiots who have no clue how to play when you can get your own players together, go in there, handle **** and get your points so you could gear up and play where it matters; rated and arena.

 

I'm not sure what else to tell you. You are dead set that premades are unfair but the purpose of a premade is to coordinate/communicate with a team composed of people who you hopefully know how to play so you can get in there and secure that win. Who the **** wants to lose? Premades aren't a 100% guaranteed win either. I keep seeing people like you say things like "well, I just play to have fun, I don't care about winning" but that's a silly excuse for not being able to put yourself in a winning position. You think I'm not having fun when I coordinate with teammates and win matches? Doesn't even matter what MMO I'm playing. I get in there to win because I have my eye set on the rewards for winning so I can get better gear or whatever, and not waste a bunch of time in the process. I'm sure you think you are all high and mighty and better than everyone else and think that the premade players suck at the game and need a group to play but I can tell you I used to go out and find people playing a class I had trouble fighting and I would duel them over and over and over to learn their strengths and weaknesses inside out; and how my own skills could interact with those to better counter these classes when I ran into them in whatever environment I did.

 

You think premades are for people who are too afraid to play solo. You are dead wrong. Premades are for people who are interested in winning and not *********** around in the process.

 

I know I just wrote a huge wall of text but I can get really really really deep into PVP (depending on the mmo) and seeing people abuse actual PVPers pisses me off. I also want to address this

 

"predominantly individual, casual players queue into"

 

This care bear, hugbox ********. Why should I even in the slightest bit be concerned about how some other players who DON'T EVEN CARE enough to play the game seriously carry themselves? Like, you say things like 'this is why pvp queues are getting longer and longer', I'm interpreting this as you saying that people like yourself (casuals who don't care) are going to lose interest and stop queuing. Good riddance. I HATE fighting against people who suck at the game or don't care at all. Its boring. I get nothing out of it. People who are serious about PVP and people who are serious at being good at PVP don't want to fight against players who are brand new and have no clue what they are doing. What the hell do they get out of that?

 

You are probably going to toss the term 'elitist' around (I *********** hate this word), but I don't mind players who aren't very good at the game as long as they are willing to try to play or care in some capacity for what's going on. You don't jump into a situation where suddenly you have teammates that both you rely on and that rely on you and just not give a **** at all. THAT'S what is unfair. The people that really get my skin crawling are the ones that don't care at all about PVP but still try to jump down everyone's throat about this perceived notion that they know what's right and wrong and everyone should be playing the game and conducting themselves as they see fit.

 

I'll even let you know that I solo queue in this MMO right now for the time being, and I will still defend premades with a fervor because I know their purpose.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Gretzel_Eis

[Yorioko]

Only an imbecile comes up with problems like this.

 

If you solo queue to pvp they you ARE NOT, fighting a group ALONE, premade or not

YOU ARE GROUPED up as the fight starts, hence there is NO SUCH THING AS UNFAIR!

 

IMBECILES!

[Mevan]

"PvP" my arse. Premades constitute a team to secure a win even before the fight happens in most cases, and they've got the galls to call that "Player versus Player"?

 

Not in my book.

 

Fully agree. All the cocky premade players I've encountered act like they're super l33t, getting all their buddies to target you before running away to hide behind their team when you survive long enough to get their health below 75%. It completely ruins the point of queueing solo and it's borderline harassment when premades are targeting you relentlessly because you call them out of their BS cowardice.

 

When you can barely get out of the starting zone because you're at such a massive, unfair and frankly unplayable disadvantage what reason is there to keep playing? You can't win, and until the *****s on the other team sod off back to school for the day there's no point even trying to play.

 

It's not fun, it's not enjoyable and anyone who defends such pure BS has no idea what PvP is supposed to be about. Premade VS solo is gradually whittling away potential PvPers who are- quite rightly- sick of wasting time playing against a team they simply cannot beat, and worst of all there're guilds that seem dedicated to loitering in the lower brackets, using premades to stomp down all the people playing while they level.

 

If BW gave a **** they'd have group and solo queues separated completely. Then we'd see how good these 'PvP guilds' actually are.