A bit confused about the nature of the "dark side"

[JKDGSGDKJA]

So, not a fan of Star Wars?

 

People were saying George was wrong about his own creation since the beginning

 

People pick and choose what they want. Not because they're right, they're not, but because they just like it better. They're basically making their own slash fic

 

And now, nothing George has said has been said to be wrong, as nothing has really changed from George's creation since he sold it.

 

I'm a fan of Star Wars as a setting and a number of people who try to do their own thing with it; just not the ravings of an old man who tried and failed to mix Eastern ideas with Western morality/religion/dogma.

 

The darkside and the lightside exist to keep the other in check, and the idea that the dark side perverts and corrupts is as silly as saying that rain or sun corrupts----they're just elemental forces that people have to live with.

 

The idea that GL or his cult of personality are any more right than my or anyone else's interpretation is silly.

[Leklor]

I'm a fan of Star Wars as a setting and a number of people who try to do their own thing with it; just not the ravings of an old man who tried and failed to mix Eastern ideas with Western morality/religion/dogma.

 

The darkside and the lightside exist to keep the other in check, and the idea that the dark side perverts and corrupts is as silly as saying that rain or sun corrupts----they're just elemental forces that people have to live with.

 

The idea that GL or his cult of personality are any more right than my or anyone else's interpretation is silly.

 

Death of the Author much? George Lucas created Star Wars, which means that by default, his explanation of how it works is the correct one.

Fans are free to react and interpret a setting but the final word should always belong to its creator. Unless of course the creator has abandonned said works and the person who took over it has clearly retconned it. While GL did sell Star Wars, so far, nothing as changed: The Dark Side is basically a cancer of the Force. And balancing the Force is not 50/50.

[Joachimthbear]

I'm a fan of Star Wars as a setting and a number of people who try to do their own thing with it; just not the ravings of an old man who tried and failed to mix Eastern ideas with Western morality/religion/dogma.

Could you elaborate on this? Specifically on what elements of "Western morality/religion/dogma" are mixed up with the Jedi and their teachings, and/or on how Lucas "failed" in this?

[TalonVII]

I find it hard to understand when ppl say light cannot exist without dark and vice versa. Physically speaking, light EXISTS, while darkness is actually THE LACK OF light. In other words, there is no such thing as dark as a thing. It's an absence of an existing thing.

Can the Light Side of the Force exist without the Dark? Definitely. The Light Side feeds on life, while the Dark feeds on death. Life can be everlasting (theoretically speaking), while death has a definite limit. If the Dark Side was erased forever, the Light could thrive on perfectly without consequences. Life has meaning without death, too. So no, the Dark Side is not necessary to be. Light can destroy Dark, simply because it IS, while the Dark isn't a real thing. Btw, do you know which is the most powerful Force Power? It's not Vitiate's consuming ritual. It's called the Wall of Light. It's capable of literally destroying the Dark Side of the Force in individuals or celestial bodies. Not even Vitiate can resist or undo that.

 

Life might have meaning without death but it loses a lot of it. Life becomes stagnant, bland and not changing. In the movie Troy, Achilles said it best. The gods envy humans because life for us comes to an end, so it's more precioua.

 

And who says death is evil? It's simply a force in nature where things come to an end.

[Joachimthbear]

Life might have meaning without death but it loses a lot of it. Life becomes stagnant, bland and not changing. In the movie Troy, Achilles said it best. The gods envy humans because life for us comes to an end, so it's more precioua.

 

And who says death is evil? It's simply a force in nature where things come to an end.

Yet it's the advocates of the Dark Side in Star Wars who fear death and seek eternal life. The Jedi teach acceptance of one's eventual death as a natural transition. Hence underlining the point: the Dark Side represents the desire to subvert the natural balance of the cosmos.

[TalonVII]

Yet it's the advocates of the Dark Side in Star Wars who fear death and seek eternal life. The Jedi teach acceptance of one's eventual death as a natural transition. Hence underlining the point: the Dark Side represents the desire to subvert the natural balance of the cosmos.

 

Which is true, they do seek to subvert the natural course of nature. However if you just go all light and remain there, what change, growth or anything happens?

 

Every land ever called a utopia, became stagnant and ended up a victim of its own best intentions. Why the best way is a balance between light and dark.

[SithKoriandr]

I'm a fan of Star Wars as a setting and a number of people who try to do their own thing with it; just not the ravings of an old man who tried and failed to mix Eastern ideas with Western morality/religion/dogma.

 

The darkside and the lightside exist to keep the other in check, and the idea that the dark side perverts and corrupts is as silly as saying that rain or sun corrupts----they're just elemental forces that people have to live with.

 

The idea that GL or his cult of personality are any more right than my or anyone else's interpretation is silly.

 

Not at all. They are not meant to exist to keep the other in check. By that reasoning, the dark side users wouldn't do evil things, but they do, because that's what it means to be dark side.

 

Now, the one thing I don't agree with, is that either side can ever be truely wiped out. EU didn't believe it either. I don't think George did either. Got rid of the biggest dark sider they ever knew, another dark sider stepped up to try and take his place.

 

There will always be evil. Just because there is good, doesn't mean there HAS to be evil though.

[JKDGSGDKJA]

Now, the one thing I don't agree with, is that either side can ever be truely wiped out. EU didn't believe it either. I don't think George did either. Got rid of the biggest dark sider they ever knew, another dark sider stepped up to try and take his place.

 

There will always be evil. Just because there is good, doesn't mean there HAS to be evil though.

 

I'd argue that as more to do with how you define what is good. Most things that'd I'd consider "pure good" (saving lives, making a medical breakthrough, etc) often come across in defiance of an evil environment or status quo. And again you could argue that all of those noble or pure good acts are corrupting "natural" status quo. But that's why GL fanboys claim the darkside is, and why it's so wickedly evil------disrupting the natural order, but never questioning that the natural order itself might be flawed, and deserving of corruption.

 

Not at all. They are not meant to exist to keep the other in check. By that reasoning, the dark side users wouldn't do evil things, but they do, because that's what it means to be dark side.

Dark=/=Evil, and Light=/=Good. A Paladin or patriotic soldier can commit terrible murders and still believe themselves to be the hero----hell, even many countries can turn cold blooded killers into "light sided" heroes as long as they're in a uniform and aim at the right people. And a "dark sided" anarchist or leader can commit morally dubious actions in the eyes of society or an established moral viewpoint, yet their actions might save countless more lives or improve the lives of others in the short/long term, in ways that might not be obvious at first.

 

Yet it's the advocates of the Dark Side in Star Wars who fear death and seek eternal life. The Jedi teach acceptance of one's eventual death as a natural transition. Hence underlining the point: the Dark Side represents the desire to subvert the natural balance of the cosmos.

 

If that defeatist, fatalistic way of thinking is that standard, is it so surprisingly why so many dark siders crop up at any given time?

 

"Hey Padawan, I stole you from your parents as a baby, and the rest of your life will be as the tool of a corrupt and inept Republic. And eventually you'll die. But don't think of trying to change any of the many flawed things in your life or develop any sense of skepticism or proactivity------because that's the dark side :D:D"

Edited November 9, 2016 by JKDGSGDKJA

[SithKoriandr]

I'd argue that as more to do with how you define what is good. Most things that'd I'd consider "pure good" (saving lives, making a medical breakthrough, etc) often come across in defiance of an evil environment or status quo. And again you could argue that all of those noble or pure good acts are corrupting "natural" status quo. But that's why GL fanboys claim the darkside is, and why it's so wickedly evil------disrupting the natural order, but never questioning that the natural order itself might be flawed, and deserving of corruption.

 

 

Dark=/=Evil, and Light=/=Good. A Paladin or patriotic soldier can commit terrible murders and still believe themselves to be the hero----hell, even many countries can turn cold blooded killers into "light sided" heroes as long as they're in a uniform and aim at the right people. And a "dark sided" anarchist or leader can commit morally dubious actions in the eyes of society or an established moral viewpoint, yet their actions might save countless more lives or improve the lives of others in the short/long term, in ways that might not be obvious at first.

 

 

 

If that defeatist, fatalistic way of thinking is that standard, is it so surprisingly why so many dark siders crop up at any given time?

 

"Hey Padawan, I stole you from your parents as a baby, and the rest of your life will be as the tool of a corrupt and inept Republic. And eventually you'll die. But don't think of trying to change any of the many flawed things in your life or develop any sense of skepticism or proactivity------because that's the dark side :D:D"

 

But Dark Side and Light Side, is Evil and Good. This isn't D&D

 

Also, the Jedi do not steal babies. No where has there been said they steal babies. Parents are more likely to give them to the Jedi if anything.

 

Just as the Empire (in TOR) see sending their children off to become Sith is a great and noble thing because they have force abilities, so do the Republic people. I'd also believe the Republic side may see it more as a "I'm not force sensitive, I won't be able to raise this force sensitive child very well"

 

Now, one can say the Jedi have egos and such. They may preach one thing, but they don't always follow it. They know this. However, they fail on some of the more obvious, like "What?! We say the dark can come back to the light, but we don't really want to give that Sith a chance!" or "Yes, you're light side, but you don't agree with our rules, so you're out!"

 

Which the last wouldn't be that bad, but then the rest of the republic might think something off on that force user.

[JKDGSGDKJA]

DnD or not I reject the idea that the LS is inherently good or the DS is inherently bad. Whatever those alignments were originally written as is irrelevant, from what stories I've ready it's almost always the weak minded that get ensnared in by the influence of either in an unhealthy way.

 

From what I've seen, in both the GCW era and TOR era there's been a consistent trope of religious zealots stealing babies. It's a whole different spectrum of retarded to me that parents would willingly give up their children. Characters like Temple, Guss, and EU Leia (maybe this applies to TFA Leia but I don't know enough about the NuCanon to confirm that either way) prove you can easily have normal, adjusted Republic/Imperials that have some degree of force sensitively, but have no exposure (and possibly no desire to be exposed) to the Jedi/Sith Codes. The idea that any large number of parents would give their children up just because they have an unusually high midichlorian count is even more ludicrous than the assertion DS must be evil and LS must be good.

 

Actually I think the Fel Empire in the Legacy Era had Force Knights similar to Zakuul, but beyond that I can't think of any major examples of force sensitives being assimilated into the Galactic Republic/Empire/etc in a way that doesn't involve the Jedi and Sith. Weird.

 

Though you make a good point-----you'd think the hyper-inflated sense of pride and arrogance among Jedi (You see this in KoTOR 2, Nomen Karr and Nomar Organna, Yoda and Mace Wyindu in the Prequels/OT, etc) In fact as much of a master manipulator as Sideous is made out to be, I doubt Anakin would have ever gotten to that point if Mace and Yoda didn't consistently antagonize Anakin at every opportunity.

 

Also speaking of the prequels and a corrupt Republic on the verge of collapse, happy Election Day everyone!

Edited November 9, 2016 by JKDGSGDKJA

[Joachimthbear]

I'd argue that as more to do with how you define what is good. Most things that'd I'd consider "pure good" (saving lives, making a medical breakthrough, etc) often come across in defiance of an evil environment or status quo.

There is something to this, but it's kind of tricky. A fatal disease is an "evil" in the broad philosophical sense - a natural evil, in this case, as opposed to a moral evil. The act of providing a cure to the disease is a good act - a morally good act. The opposite to the natural evil of the disease is not the moral good of curing it, it's the natural good of being in good health. The opposite to the moral good of curing the disease is the moral evil of wilfully spreading it.

 

The nature of the Dark Side is ambiguous; it may be classifiable as a natural evil. Like other natural evils - diseases, earthquakes, hurricanes - it may be impossible to get rid of entirely. However, to wilfully perpetuate the Dark Side (as the Sith do) is morally evil, and to combat the Dark Side's influence is morally good.

 

People falling from the "Light" to the Dark Side are arguably in the grey areas here; extreme duress is usually involved, diminishing their responsibility. However, there seems to be a tipping point where a person commits an act of great and obvious moral evil, fully embracing the Dark Side in the process.

 

You can argue that without evils to combat, there would be no acts of good. Maybe so. However, we don't need moral evil for that. Natural evils will keep us busy enough. If (extremely unlikely) we ever run out of natural evils to struggle against, we will by then have transcended to a state of perfect existence, at which point by definition there is nothing to complain about.

 

And again you could argue that all of those noble or pure good acts are corrupting "natural" status quo. But that's why GL fanboys claim the darkside is, and why it's so wickedly evil------disrupting the natural order, but never questioning that the natural order itself might be flawed, and deserving of corruption.

The natural order of the physical world and the natural order of the spiritual world are two different things. In the physical world we are finite beings and thus will always encounter natural evils, which must be overcome or we will die. In the spiritual world of the Force, there is immortality.

 

Dark=/=Evil, and Light=/=Good.

Depends on what you understand "Dark" and "Light" to mean. If I am naming things in the cosmology of a setting I created, I can make "light" a synonym for "good" and "dark" a synonym for "evil" if I so choose. I could also do the opposite.

 

If that defeatist, fatalistic way of thinking is that standard, is it so surprisingly why so many dark siders crop up at any given time?

A Jedi simply accepting that death is inevitable is neither defeatist nor fatalistic. It's not defeatist because death isn't a defeat - not when you have empirical evidence for an afterlife. And it's not fatalistic because it doesn't say you shouldn't fight to stay alive right now - it just accepts the objective reality that one day you will die.

 

"Hey Padawan, I stole you from your parents as a baby, and the rest of your life will be as the tool of a corrupt and inept Republic. And eventually you'll die. But don't think of trying to change any of the many flawed things in your life or develop any sense of skepticism or proactivity------because that's the dark side :D:D"

Gonna suddenly sound pretty great after they hear the Sith pitch.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Joachimthbear

[JKDGSGDKJA]

 

 

Gonna suddenly sound pretty great after they hear the Sith pitch.

 

Lol.

 

OT/PT/GCW-era Sith and Jedi were both **** It sucks because even Darth "I'm the bad guy" Malak is more character.

 

"Hey you! Force sensitive! You get to choose between following petty old men who are both terrible people -----Mace and Yoda-----in the Jedi Order, or Edge Personified-----Maul and Sideous in the Sith!"

 

"What's that? You don't want to follow two dogmatic orders that are shadows of what they were in 3640 BBY? You want to put your talents serving the Empire or Rebellion? What's that? You want to fight alongside Thrawn or Ackbar? Well I got something better than that! Instead you have the option to be a jobber for Gallius Rax or that OC Wedge Antilles.

And nope! You don't get to encounter any interesting characters like Rae Sloane or Ciena

"

 

....I forgot what I was ranting about. ...Oh right the PT/OT factions being terrible. Yup.

 

Anyways, Dark, Light, who cares?! Let's make Zakuul Great Again!

[SithKoriandr]

DnD or not I reject the idea that the LS is inherently good or the DS is inherently bad. Whatever those alignments were originally written as is irrelevant, from what stories I've ready it's almost always the weak minded that get ensnared in by the influence of either in an unhealthy way.

 

From what I've seen, in both the GCW era and TOR era there's been a consistent trope of religious zealots stealing babies. It's a whole different spectrum of retarded to me that parents would willingly give up their children. Characters like Temple, Guss, and EU Leia (maybe this applies to TFA Leia but I don't know enough about the NuCanon to confirm that either way) prove you can easily have normal, adjusted Republic/Imperials that have some degree of force sensitively, but have no exposure (and possibly no desire to be exposed) to the Jedi/Sith Codes. The idea that any large number of parents would give their children up just because they have an unusually high midichlorian count is even more ludicrous than the assertion DS must be evil and LS must be good.

 

Actually I think the Fel Empire in the Legacy Era had Force Knights similar to Zakuul, but beyond that I can't think of any major examples of force sensitives being assimilated into the Galactic Republic/Empire/etc in a way that doesn't involve the Jedi and Sith. Weird.

 

Though you make a good point-----you'd think the hyper-inflated sense of pride and arrogance among Jedi (You see this in KoTOR 2, Nomen Karr and Nomar Organna, Yoda and Mace Wyindu in the Prequels/OT, etc) In fact as much of a master manipulator as Sideous is made out to be, I doubt Anakin would have ever gotten to that point if Mace and Yoda didn't consistently antagonize Anakin at every opportunity.

 

Also speaking of the prequels and a corrupt Republic on the verge of collapse, happy Election Day everyone!

 

I'm sure it's odd to think anyone would do something like just hand over their child, but different societies, and this one fictional.

 

I don't think Yoda or Mace were master manipulators, not that they couldn't be. I would even say Yoda came to realize and regret his part in Anakin's fall. Anakin has some major blame of course, he did do what he did of his own free will, however, he was raised in a society that had people who knew of him (seemed to have contact with him) and basically said "No mater what you do, you will never reach where you want to go"

 

Yoda grew up in a time with different beliefs and no wiggle room.

[MadDutchman]

Probably been mentioned before in this thread, but Mortis and and now Bendu have kinda thrown a big monkey wrench in the old idea that the existence of the Dark Side is the imbalance

 

and GL was involved with Mortis.

 

 

So sorry folks, GL changed his mind again, and Disney is running with the new version, not the old.