Slicing nodes broken, giving way too many credits since 4.1

[squirrelballz]

ORLY? So they want these bots here doing this then? Because according to this statement they have the means to do it but are basically choosing not to?

 

Got anything to show where they "have done before"?

 

This one I will provide as courtesy unlike alot of people here who think they are "armchair economic and bot experts" and have shown no data that BW has and are just throwing anecdotal evidence:

 

http://dulfy.net/2015/05/06/swtor-credit-spammer-ring-with-9-billion-credits-took-down/

 

Often those providing said expertise work in said real world - just calling people "armchair economic experts" doesn't make anything being said wrong ( because well you've not tried once to counter anything being said, just more refuting to the tired old ad hominem style argument ).

If you want to show how it's wrong then show it.

 

On the side I would be happy if they did something about the bots and automation of this and left the nodes as is, it would be my primary solution if there was one because people making more credits means MeNaCe making more credits.

However ... I really don't see a way they are going to target the bots specifically and I know BW take the easy route so expect nerf hammer of doom. Unless of course you can demonstrate how they've dealt with bots in the past as you eluded to?

 

Until those who are against the nodes provide metrics that BW has they have no ground to stand on and "armchair economic experts" seems to fit well in this situation. People who have brought up an issue against the nodes must provide reason and evidence to have it changed, THE ONUS LIES ON THEM not the other way around. I owe nobody any explanation because I don't pretend to be an expert about the economy and numbers I don't have. So please stop pretending people here giving their "expert" opinions means something because it doesn't, it's equivalent to everyone having an... I'll let y'all finish that one out.

Edited March 1, 2016 by squirrelballz

[MeNaCe-NZ]

people that made billions of credits in the last exploit sold them to the gold seller companies for thousands of dollars. so yes, some people have a vested interest to see gold seller prices remain high

 

You seem to miss the point in why would the gold sellers bother paying for something they get for free?

 

You sure do seem to know a lot about players selling credits though, I mean I can go to websites and check the pricing but you seem to actually have some sort of inside knowledge of sales that are taking place ... interesting.,

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This one I will provide as courtesy unlike alot of people here who think they are "armchair economic and bot experts" and have shown no data that BW has and are just throwing anecdotal evidence:

 

http://dulfy.net/2015/05/06/swtor-credit-spammer-ring-with-9-billion-credits-took-down/

 

Ah I remember that - almost a year ago and what good did it do? Pretty much none because bot reports continued to roll in to forums and continued to be seemingly ignored.

Gold selling spam didn't take a backward step, credit prices didn't move.

That came more across as a publicity stunt than anything else otherwise it should have become a long term effort to keep on top of this sort of thing rather than a once off hit followed by high 5's all round.

 

Until those who are against the nodes provide metrics that BW has they have no ground to stand on and "armchair economic experts" seems to fit well in this situation. People who have brought up an issue against the nodes must provide reason and evidence to have it changed, THE ONUS LIES ON THEM not the other way around. I owe nobody any explanation because I don't pretend to be an expert about the economy and numbers I don't have. So please stop pretending people here giving their "expert" opinions means something because it doesn't, it's equivalent to everyone having an... I'll let y'all finish that one out.

 

Me making 35 million on one toon and another 15 million on the same toon 12 hours later ... the drop in real world $ for credits ... the individual increases in rare item value on the GTN ... cartel pack/crate prices not dropping and actually increasing over age... the reports of increased botting/stealth botting over Yavin ...

You can choose to ignore all this if you want but there has been plenty of anecdotal evidence to show there is an issue whilst you've done and said nothing to disprove anything said other than "no it means nothing".

 

Just saying it, doesn't mean it's true.

[ArkhaanPremiare]

Grind heroics that could pay more faster vs spending 7-8 hours clicking nodes manually? Err ... ok.

Maybe I'm wrong on the heroic front - I'm just assuming they pay more based on what others in this thread have said to try show why slicing nodes aren't that big of a deal ( and they're not - the bots are but nothing can or will be done to stop the bots so something needs to change with the nodes ).

 

What method anyway? Are you automating this or something because you make out like standing on a planet going back and forward between nodes clicking is somehow less grindy than heroics?

 

 

 

Increasing supply will ideally reduce inflation on the cost of those items, not increase it ... just saying.

 

Also higher prices mean more grinding regardless of what sort of grinding it is.

 

Driving around in a circle collecting nodes may be less interesting, but it's way easier. That's all I'm concerned with. It's funny you mentioned automated collecting though, I keep seeing this purple Andronikis pop up behind me and steal the node from me. Then he just disappears and reappears at another node. Is that normal?

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Driving around in a circle collecting nodes may be less interesting, but it's way easier. That's all I'm concerned with. It's funny you mentioned automated collecting though, I keep seeing this purple Andronikis pop up behind me and steal the node from me. Then he just disappears and reappears at another node. Is that normal?

 

Nope that's not - that's an example of the issue that's being discussed, stealth botting etc.

It's not an easy thing for Bioware to stop because they ban one there will be another to take it's spot pretty soon after.

 

Even IP banning is futile because more than likely they are run from VPNs, proxies, Trojan infected PCs hence why they'd have no trouble changing IP to rinse and repeat if banned.

 

It's why the mass ban taken against a gold selling ring mentioned above was inevitably futile if they don't keep on top of doing such activity regularly.

[Mezarkan]

with the way credit prices are dropping i wonder if there are other exploits going on too but this is definitely a huge problem that the botters are taking full advantage of.

[Alssaran]

Sorry bro, I don't click abilities. Seriously though you clearly are delusional if you think combat compares to running around right clicking on objects.

 

So, where's the difference? Both are an activity I can pursue for a gain. There are people in other games who specifically LEVEL characters by doing only gathering. The Pandaren "Doubleagent" is a great example of this. Google his story. And while that is one subjective case of someone preferring the nodes to actual combat, I do believe simply discarding all nodes for the sake of botters (as MeNaCe) tried to suggest is simply not the favourable solution.

 

The fact that you don't find enjoyment in it doesn't negate the activity for everyone else in this game. Case and point.

 

But if you are so keen on this argument: You click crafting nodes to gain credits or materials, which you can then use to craft/buy gear. You combat enemies (of which the difficulty level is not much harder since 4.0) to gain gear and credits. Where's the difference? Only your subjective opinion about how you want to spend your time in game.

 

It's the same for the Green crystals. Bioware didn't want to change the existing one because there might be people who enjoy the normal crystal. That was one of Eric's arguments during the last Cantina tour. Yet I hardly ever see anyone running around with a normal green saber past level 30, and I personally don't like the simple green crystal. That doesn't mean I can't see that there might be someone that favour this crystal, and changing it/removing this specific colour scheme forever is not the ideal solution.

 

Most people concerned with this don't want nodes removed. Just want them changed to give materials(best thing) or back to where they were pre 4.1. The same thing happened with security chests and bots were teleport hacking the majority of them. Then they removed the credits only now to produce the same exact issue with slicing nodes after increasing the credits.

 

And again: I have no issue with that. I take issue with MeNaCe's removal strategy. And, yes, he actually did propose that. Changing is fine. Removing isn't.

 

You don't NEED to do it though and it's hardly an enjoyable activity to the majority of players. If a few who actually subscribe to harvest nodes ( lol the concept is utterly laughable ) - well ... greater good n all that.

 

Every argument you make is not based around the fact of "greater good", but around the idea that everyone has to share your explicit opinion about how the game is to be enjoyed. Someone dislikes the GCC? It is obvious he simply doesn't use them right. Someone might enjoy crafting and harvesting his materials by himself? He must obviously take one for the greater good!

 

Can you prove that there is no sufficient amount of players that spend some (neither all nor most) of their time each month to harvest nodes to prepare for crafting? No? Then your argument about "a minority taking it for the greater good!" is bullsh*t. Try again.

 

There are people who subscribe to RP. There are people who subscribe to play the GTN. There are people who subscribe to craft. All of those are valid reasons to subscribe if someone enjoys it that much. That means no reason to subscribe is "laughable" just because you don't see the appeal. If someone subscribes for crafting alone and prefers to actually farm the nodes instead of just waiting for the materials from sending companions away, that's fine by me.

 

The fact your even trying to relate the removal of all PVE to removing nodes is just ridiculous.

 

You did hear about metaphors right? I assume you still didn't read up on it, seeing mutliple people have provided a link for you in previous discussions.

 

A metaphor is a figure of speech that identifies something as being the same as some unrelated thing for rhetorical effect that, usually, provides clarity; thus, the implied conceptual relationship rhetorically highlights the, at times difficult to conceive, similarities between two ideas.

 

See? I even went to Wikipedia to copy it for you. What I've been pointing out is that you are using an inferior argument to defend your removal theory. The idea that "someone is abusing it, thus it must be removed!" is not a good justification.

 

This though? Can't be controlled as it stands.

 

Nonsense. This can be controlled. Teleporting around the map can easily be recorded by other players and send to Bioware. If the X and Y coordinate of a player on the map change too rapidly, this can be an indication. You can just teleport from 250X and 173Y (in meters) to 100 units away multiple times a minute. Or the total uptime/online time of the account. Someone who plays 10 hours for a few days is reasonable. If someone has a 24/7 uptime with continuous gathering and movement, that's also highly suspicious.

 

Other games manage quite well. Don't get me wrong: Botters never truly disappear. But other games manage to ban them too, and at least make the effort. So, your proposed solution is to cut the game (and your removing is cutting the game. However major or minor something is, taking it out for good is cutting the game), but not hold Bioware to higher standards?

 

Sure. Whatever floats your boat.

 

thus I advocate the removal of nodes or gating them behind actually having to kill content like bioanalysis ( which you coenveniently ignored in your rant against me ).

 

I did not. You said "remove the nodes". Period. This is your text:

 

The fix is simple - nerf or even remove the concept of nodes. There are time gated missions to get everything, nodes aren't required.

 

There is nothing about moving slicing nodes to killable objects in there. Are you starting to accuse people of not reading your posts again? That up there was your entire post. Go and read it again. There was no mention of moving slicing to killable mobs. In fact, there wasn't a single mention of this concept in our whole exchange until this point, when you're conveniently trying to use that against me to attack me instead of my argument. Come on MeNaCe. You can do better.

 

But you reduce them you still have the problem.

 

Then attack the bl**dy problem. You don't delete a weapon in a shooter because someone managed to use an aimbot. You ban the botter. If a weapon deals too much damage and is abused to "cheat" the system, you can adjust the damage. You don't have to delete it outright. This is why your removal option is a simple knee-jerk reaction that won't work. You are shifting the problem. What if botters find another way to farm credits? Would we have to remove that too?

 

Says the guy comparing node removal to PVe removal

 

It's interesting how you can try and use metaphors against people for ages. I have a really craze idea here. Bear with me, I know it's hilarious: How about you stop attacking the person based on using a figure of speech, but you actually bring a counter to the argument? That must sound too hilarious for you, I know...

 

You asked whilst I bought it up, I answered so yeah it's completely relevant to demonstrate inflation in practice here.

 

No. Whatever you make is completely irrelevant to the issue since you are neither every player or are indicative of the average player. An average is calculated by taking every player into account, not just one. That means the idea of saying there is an inflation because you make X amount of money is useless, wrong, and even remotely self-gratifying.

 

You cannot claim there is an inflation because Bill Gates makes 233,000 per minute. This is why how much you make is irrelevant to the question. The same way you making 499k per chance cube was not a valid counter to the statement: "I don't like the chance cubes."

 

That argument you kind of ran away from last time unless I missed some belated reply?

 

There was no argument, seeing your whole idea was flawed from the beginning. "I make 499k per chance cube, that's why the chance cubes are good. People who say they are bad are bad or not very well implemented are wrong because they simply can't use them right!"

 

Sounds like a child, really. "Peanut butter is the sweetest ingredient, thus it is the best!". Only if you like sweet stuff. If someone is not interested in making 499k per pack in exchange for receiving no new item, but is interested in receiving new items from new packs, the GCC was not the optimal solution. At least not the way it is implemented now.

 

After five replies of you repeating the same nonsense ad infinitum (I make this much, thus I'm right! I can sell bronze stuff compared to others, thus they are perfect.) I simply gave up to have any kind of argument with you.

 

Apparently not if you fail to understand how this affects inflation and how me demonstrating inflation at play via my recent sales helps show this.

 

Your recent sales are not in any way indicative of an overall inflation across all servers. I sold my recent augments (type 40 and purple) for 35k a piece. I sold 40 defensive armour modifications for 39k a piece. A single Info-Scraper sold for about 7k on the Progenitor for a few days. My subjective evidence would suggest there is no inflation. But that's not what I am claiming since it is ridiculous.

 

You really seem threatened by me or something ...

 

 

Or just have BW remove the nodes ( or gate them ) and be done with it, much easier and less painful except for the maybe one person ( you it would seem ) that thinks gathering nodes is actually a reasonable activity to justify their subscription.

 

And where is your evidence that there is not a good portion of players who make crafting their focus AND like to gather nodes? I'm still waiting on that evidence. Up until now, I only see you claiming I am the only one who occassionaly likes to go out and farm some nodes. I'm waiting.

 

I'm making a case for not removing the nodes because we cannot guarantee that it will not further antagonize some players who like to farm materials and sell them using this method. And it's reasonable to assume that people who like crafting might also like to farm materials by using nodes instead of waiting 23m without doing anything at all.

 

You simply state that it is a fact that there is barely anyone who ever likes to farm nodes for a few hours each week/month to supply themselves with materials for the month. I'm still waiting for the link.

 

Oh ok, that sounds like a really expert, well thought out reason there ... "people with lots of credits are less prone to spend them" ... right ... must be why I did make that easy 35 million ...

 

I also made 23m during the past week, but mostly through smaller sales. Without knowing how you made those 35m, it is only a number. If you sold 350 augmentations for 100k each, that still doesn't mean that people with large amounts of money spend all that money rather quickly.

 

Anyone got any straws? I think Alssaran grasped the last of them around this topic.

 

Personal insults and trying to ridicule? Again? Dude...do you even ad hominem?

 

MeNaCe, I'm through with argumenting with you. The only thing you do throughout your posts is either stating how much money you have and thus try to claim to be an authority, or you simply try to attack an argument based on an ad hominem approach. Half your long posts are actually attacking the person behind the argument, not posting any relevant criticism to the argument. You repeat what your proposed solution, add a single sentence of a non-relevant explanation, then proceed with three barely even relevant quotes and try to make an attack.

 

See you around. Or...read you around. That's probably the better explanation.

 

And, yes. That was also an ad hominem paragraph. *drops microphone*

[squirrelballz]

Ah I remember that - almost a year ago and what good did it do? Pretty much none because bot reports continued to roll in to forums and continued to be seemingly ignored.

Gold selling spam didn't take a backward step, credit prices didn't move.

That came more across as a publicity stunt than anything else otherwise it should have become a long term effort to keep on top of this sort of thing rather than a once off hit followed by high 5's all round.

 

You were the one who asked for proof that they have done something against bots before. I was courteous enough to do so even though I had no obligation in doing so because I believe in stating facts not opinions. Yet here you are again assuming you know whats best for the game's economy even though you don't have one iota of the metrics BW does. Even if it was a publicity stunt who cares this isn't your game you don't own those shiny pixels and credits, you pay to have the privilege to access them. Like I said before you don't throw out anything other than anecdotal evidence and still have no ground to stand on but I can respect you feeling a different way, just please don't claim it as a fact it makes you seem like a pompous and conceited.

 

Me making 35 million on one toon and another 15 million on the same toon 12 hours later ... the drop in real world $ for credits ... the individual increases in rare item value on the GTN ... cartel pack/crate prices not dropping and actually increasing over age... the reports of increased botting/stealth botting over Yavin ...

You can choose to ignore all this if you want but there has been plenty of anecdotal evidence to show there is an issue whilst you've done and said nothing to disprove anything said other than "no it means nothing".

 

Just saying it, doesn't mean it's true.

 

I will choose to ignore it but you do have the right to express otherwise. Like I said before you don't throw out anything other than anecdotal evidence and still have no ground to stand on but I can respect you feeling a different way, just please don't claim it as a fact it makes you come off as pompous and conceited. You don't know whats better for this game's economy then BW and that is fact plain and simple.

[Max_Killjoy]

If one were in the business of casting random aspersions at people based on what they know or their opinions... it would be amusing to note who actually pays close ongoing attention to how many credits can be had for a dollar in violation of the game's rules/ToS, and how most of same seem to be people who also act personally threatened by even the idea that there might be "too many credits" coming from slicing nodes.

 

Good thing I'm not in any of those businesses, I guess...

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[ivanhedgehog]

You seem to miss the point in why would the gold sellers bother paying for something they get for free?

 

You sure do seem to know a lot about players selling credits though, I mean I can go to websites and check the pricing but you seem to actually have some sort of inside knowledge of sales that are taking place ... interesting.,

 

yet you seem to be denying it strongly..what do you do with those billions of credits you keep telling us about?...interesting

[Mezarkan]

yet you seem to be denying it strongly..what do you do with those billions of credits you keep telling us about?...interesting

 

here is a collection of quotes i found on a hacker website, i won't name the website

 

 

 

START OF QUOTES

 

 

"I am looking for profile(s) that let me gather and open these small credboxes on Yavin 4.

If someone already have some profiles around,it would be AWESOME to get ma´ Hands on it.

 

If not i am willing to kick out a lil´ Donation for a good Profile!!

 

Please let me know!"

 

 

 

 

 

"Also yavin 4 sees an increase, reports about 2,5mil per hour "

 

 

 

 

"from 4,1 slicing is a problem that is price crush with 15 bots is 100 milions per day if you dont sell 1 day next is 200 milions and so on"

 

 

 

 

"rofl the devs are so dumb in this game.... just keep raking in the credits from this exploit.... if the price keeps dropping just stock pile the credits.. we should start posting in that forum post about the slicing nodes and say how this is a great change in the game to delay the time until they fix it lol.... hell they may be dumb enough to never fix it. the com crystal exploit lasted more than a month "

 

 

"Still funny to see how the Bioware devs, are *********** it up in just a short timespan...

I think they dont care about mechanics anymore and story only.

Even the lead OPS dev has left."

 

 

END OF QUOTES

 

 

looks like the hackers are having lots of fun with this

[Max_Killjoy]

Because hackers and credit spammers are of course the most trustworthy of people.

 

2.5 mil per hour would be one node every 17 seconds or so, without any interruptions or competition.

 

If "bots" are as rife as is claimed, then at some points the bots would just start competing with each other....

[Synbane]

Who cares, if there having fun with it. the problem is not them. Every chance you people get you bash the game machanics and cry about how the game is broken because its not going your way. its not the slicing boxes that's the problem its the bots. So reducing the amount of them will not stop them from getting credits from them. you remove the credits then you have a dead profession/gather skill. Then what? you move credits to missions only? well then you just did something your crying about. You raised the prices of the GTN because they cant get there credits or its more work to. so my thing is just leave it be and move on to another problem that needs real attention. like Raids and pvp balancing.

[Mezarkan]

Who cares, if there having fun with it. the problem is not them. Every chance you people get you bash the game machanics and cry about how the game is broken because its not going your way. its not the slicing boxes that's the problem its the bots. So reducing the amount of them will not stop them from getting credits from them. you remove the credits then you have a dead profession/gather skill. Then what? you move credits to missions only? well then you just did something your crying about. You raised the prices of the GTN because they cant get there credits or its more work to. so my thing is just leave it be and move on to another problem that needs real attention. like Raids and pvp balancing.

 

 

exploits like this hurt legitimate players and crafters and causes a huge drop in cartel coin sales as more people decide to buy from these exploiters rather than supporting the game by buying cartel coins since the exploiters can sell for so cheap.

[ivanhedgehog]

here is a collection of quotes i found on a hacker website, i won't name the website

 

 

 

START OF QUOTES

 

 

"I am looking for profile(s) that let me gather and open these small credboxes on Yavin 4.

If someone already have some profiles around,it would be AWESOME to get ma´ Hands on it.

 

If not i am willing to kick out a lil´ Donation for a good Profile!!

 

Please let me know!"

 

 

 

 

 

"Also yavin 4 sees an increase, reports about 2,5mil per hour "

 

 

 

 

"from 4,1 slicing is a problem that is price crush with 15 bots is 100 milions per day if you dont sell 1 day next is 200 milions and so on"

 

 

 

 

"rofl the devs are so dumb in this game.... just keep raking in the credits from this exploit.... if the price keeps dropping just stock pile the credits.. we should start posting in that forum post about the slicing nodes and say how this is a great change in the game to delay the time until they fix it lol.... hell they may be dumb enough to never fix it. the com crystal exploit lasted more than a month "

 

 

"Still funny to see how the Bioware devs, are *********** it up in just a short timespan...

I think they dont care about mechanics anymore and story only.

Even the lead OPS dev has left."

 

 

END OF QUOTES

 

 

looks like the hackers are having lots of fun with this

 

so they have stopped buying from you?

 

if you were stupid enough to actually go to their sites, your computer may be compromised. good luck with that.

[ivanhedgehog]

Because hackers and credit spammers are of course the most trustworthy of people.

 

2.5 mil per hour would be one node every 17 seconds or so, without any interruptions or competition.

 

If "bots" are as rife as is claimed, then at some points the bots would just start competing with each other....

 

he has this army of bots marching shoulder to shoulder across yavin, yet players can still find nodes to collect. which should be mutually exclusive

[Max_Killjoy]

he has this army of bots marching shoulder to shoulder across yavin, yet players can still find nodes to collect. which should be mutually exclusive

 

I'm not claiming that there are no bots, or that botters and gold spammers aren't a problem at all. Heck, I hate seeing them on fleet, etc, spamming away continuously.

 

Just tired of every little "exploit" supposedly rising to the level of urgent national security, with the game doomed to die in a matter of hours if the servers aren't shut down right now to save us all.

[Mezarkan]

I'm not claiming that there are no bots, or that botters and gold spammers aren't a problem at all. Heck, I hate seeing them on fleet, etc, spamming away continuously.

 

Just tired of every little "exploit" supposedly rising to the level of urgent national security, with the game doomed to die in a matter of hours if the servers aren't shut down right now to save us all.

 

any bad game design which can be exploited to this extent allows the botters to sell credits for really cheap and divert a lot more sales to them instead of legitimate things like the purchase of cartel coins and so this hurts the game majorly.

 

then add how it increases the prices of items in game through massive inflation.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Mezarkan
sss

[Max_Killjoy]

any bad game design which can be exploited to this extent allows the botters to sell credits for really cheap and divert a lot more sales to them instead of legitimate things like the purchase of cartel coins and so this hurts the game majorly.

 

then add how it increases the prices of items in game through massive inflation.

 

First you'd need to prove that any part of that is actually happening -- that there is a horde of bots, that they're making significantly more credits from this than prior, that it's being used to fuel credit sellers, that more players are buying "illegal" credits than before, that they're doing so instead of CM purchases and thus not buying from Bioware, and so on -- instead of expecting everyone to simply accept your assertion as fact.

 

Of particular note is the conflict between you assertion that many more people are buying more "illegal" credits, and your assertion that prices for "illegal" credits are going down.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[Mezarkan]

First you'd need to prove that any part of that is actually happening -- that there is a horde of bots, that they're making significantly more credits from this than prior, that it's being used to fuel credit sellers, that more players are buying "illegal" credits than before, that they're doing so instead of CM purchases and thus not buying from Bioware, and so on -- instead of expecting everyone to simply accept your assertion as fact.

 

Of particular note is the conflict between you assertion that many more people are buying more "illegal" credits, and your assertion that prices for "illegal" credits are going down.

 

 

 

new post about more of these bots here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=874343

 

i see that you don't understand basic supply and demand. by reducing prices they increase demand. and the reason they can reduce prices is because they produce hundreds of millions daily through the exploit of this game design/mistake when they combine it with bots and teleport bots.

[Max_Killjoy]

new post about more of these bots here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=874343

 

i see that you don't understand basic supply and demand. by reducing prices they increase demand. and the reason they can reduce prices is because they produce hundreds of millions daily through the exploit of this game design/mistake when they combine it with bots and teleport bots.

 

So lower prices would "increase demand", but increased demand wouldn't raise prices? What sort of economics is this, exactly?

 

Never mind that you're still not offering any actual proof, just people seeing what they believe are bots, and a lot of working backwards from your conclusion via several hypothetical steps.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[MeNaCe-NZ]

 

Every argument you make is not based around the fact of "greater good", but around the idea that everyone has to share your explicit opinion about how the game is to be enjoyed. Someone dislikes the GCC? It is obvious he simply doesn't use them right. Someone might enjoy crafting and harvesting his materials by himself? He must obviously take one for the greater good!

 

Always the chance cubes with you sheesh ... you really are sore after that last debate and being put in your place aren't you?

Yes, keeping prices affordable for EVERYONE is in the interest of the greater good, to imply otherwise is just plain ignorant.

 

 

Can you prove that there is no sufficient amount of players that spend some (neither all nor most) of their time each month to harvest nodes to prepare for crafting? No? Then your argument about "a minority taking it for the greater good!" is bullsh*t. Try again.

 

Sure ... I go to a planet and I don't see 100's if not 1000's of players endeavoring to harvest nodes ... that is of course what it would take if we are talking a majority ( thus over 50% ) here.

 

The fact you are even trying to reason that nodes shouldn't be removed because the majority of players use them is just rather pathetic. It's common sense, go look for yourself, clearly the majority of players are not doing this ... they are playing the game. Nodes would be missed by a small, angry vocal minority ... and to use your beloved cubes in reference - a similar vocal, angry minority that were anti the cubes.

 

There are people who subscribe to RP. There are people who subscribe to play the GTN. There are people who subscribe to craft. All of those are valid reasons to subscribe if someone enjoys it that much. That means no reason to subscribe is "laughable" just because you don't see the appeal. If someone subscribes for crafting alone and prefers to actually farm the nodes instead of just waiting for the materials from sending companions away, that's fine by me.

 

Oh it's completely laughable ... 1) because I doubt anyone subscribes to harvest nodes, not even you - you're just clutching at straws to try argue a stance you can't actually defend and 2) I find the concept completely laughable if they did which I am quite right to do so because it would exactly that ... laughable.

 

Relating it to other more diverse activities that aren't just "driving in circles clicking" is inane - much like your argument.

 

 

You did hear about metaphors right? I assume you still didn't read up on it, seeing mutliple people have provided a link for you in previous discussions.

 

They did? Got proof? I have heard of them of course, but when they are used so badly to prove a point ... they aren't worth taking seriously at all.

 

 

Nonsense. This can be controlled. Teleporting around the map can easily be recorded by other players and send to Bioware. If the X and Y coordinate of a player on the map change too rapidly, this can be an indication. You can just teleport from 250X and 173Y (in meters) to 100 units away multiple times a minute. Or the total uptime/online time of the account. Someone who plays 10 hours for a few days is reasonable. If someone has a 24/7 uptime with continuous gathering and movement, that's also highly suspicious.

 

Thanks for stating the obvious but when they remove these accounts after thorough investigation and one is back up hours later ... what then? They hire a full time team to keep on top of this and monitor it? They don't even seemingly have a team to create operations now which is actual content people want ... you really think they are going to create a team to control bots over nerfing the crap out of the nodes or removing them entirely?

 

I find it funny still that you try to imply node gathering might be so popular that their removal might be against the greater good yet ... where is the outrage to my suggestion? A few angry posters as usual ... pfft.

 

 

Other games manage quite well. Don't get me wrong: Botters never truly disappear. But other games manage to ban them too, and at least make the effort. So, your proposed solution is to cut the game (and your removing is cutting the game. However major or minor something is, taking it out for good is cutting the game), but not hold Bioware to higher standards?

 

You should go play those other games then because this dev team is not that dev team. Whilst I would love to hold BW to higher standards and think they could indeed get on top of this without changing anything ihistory dictates this is not the case. Thus I propose the quickest, easiest fix possible for the greater good.

I don't even include myself in that greater good because as it stands now it's operation now is "best for business" for me - however I can separate my own selfish wants ( which you can't seem to do by wanting nodes kept in the game ) for the benefit of the community ( after all, I can only ever spend so many credits ).

 

I did not. You said "remove the nodes". Period. This is your text:

 

Oh? Well if you were actually fully engaged in the discussion instead of busy cherry picking things I personally have to say you would find this back on page 27:

 

compared to just removing the concept of nodes as we know it or changing how they work.

 

After all people are saying there is more than enough credits to be made just by playing the game so there is really no need to put bot bait in to the game like this. Heck even if they could lock it behind actually killing an enemy ( like bioanalysis ) that would certainly be a good way to gate out automation.

 

There is nothing about moving slicing nodes to killable objects in there. Are you starting to accuse people of not reading your posts again?

 

Don't need to accuse you, I've blatantly proven it above.

 

 

That up there was your entire post. Go and read it again. There was no mention of moving slicing to killable mobs. In fact, there wasn't a single mention of this concept in our whole exchange until this point, when you're conveniently trying to use that against me to attack me instead of my argument. Come on MeNaCe. You can do better.

 

Our exchange? You jumped on me without checking your facts to begin with. When I mentioned I put forward the above concept and you blatantly are trying to say I have not anyone with a semblance of logic would at least think to check the thread first to ensure they were correct. You however have failed at this, it's becoming much like the cube argument all over again ... how long until you run away this time I wonder.

 

Now you can't even say that the above part I quoted wasn't addressed at you because your original quote wasn't addressed at you either. It pays to educate yourself fully before commenting...

Try better next time ok?

 

Then attack the bl**dy problem.

 

Open to suggestions here - so far MaxKilljoy is the only other person I've personally noted to endeavour to put forward decent suggestions. Where are yours or are you just going to sit back and put forward these inane arguments all day without advancing a better, REALISTIC solution?

Whilst Max's they are good ideas they do seemingly require more dev time than a simple super nerf or removal of nodes ( the later would more or less stop botting in it's tracks because there isn't much else that's easily automated except killing of enemies and level sync helped somewhat with that. ) Bioware have often proven to either do nothing or take the easiest measure ... I would prefer they didn't do nothing, it's not good for the game.

 

 

You don't delete a weapon in a shooter because someone managed to use an aimbot. You ban the botter.

 

Do you seriouslly believe the amount of bots being used to "aimbot" which would only arguably to win at a game and be done by actual players can be compared to bots used to generate real world income? Another more "metaphor" to use in relation to this topic.

 

If a weapon deals too much damage and is abused to "cheat" the system, you can adjust the damage.

 

Same as above - damage != credits they can sell for real world money. There is different motivation here and thus one is going to be more pervasive than the other. Reducing damage can fix the problem there entirely by balancing it out, just nerfing nodes won't - it will just slow down the problem.

 

This is why your removal option is a simple knee-jerk reaction that won't work.

 

Won't work? That's a statement of fact without any basis to support how it won't work ... how won't it work?

 

You are shifting the problem. What if botters find another way to farm credits? Would we have to remove that too?

 

Oh I see you stated it "won't" work because "what if" they find another means ... gotta love "what ifs".

 

It's interesting how you can try and use metaphors against people for ages. I have a really craze idea here. Bear with me, I know it's hilarious: How about you stop attacking the person based on using a figure of speech, but you actually bring a counter to the argument? That must sound too hilarious for you, I know..

.

 

A counter argument to your counter argument that was rather stupid to begin with? Why? There is nothing to counter. You literally tried to compare removal of all PVE to node removal ... it's just nonsense.

 

No. Whatever you make is completely irrelevant to the issue since you are neither every player or are indicative of the average player. An average is calculated by taking every player into account, not just one. That means the idea of saying there is an inflation because you make X amount of money is useless, wrong, and even remotely self-gratifying.

 

You cannot claim there is an inflation because Bill Gates makes 233,000 per minute. This is why how much you make is irrelevant to the question. The same way you making 499k per chance cube was not a valid counter to the statement: "I don't like the chance cubes."

 

Heh here comes the chance cubes again ... you are so butt hurt over that one. Here's an idea for you ... next time you start an argument with me over them ... finish it. Don't run off crying and then try raise it again another day in another topic ... "499K" ... pfft.

 

See what I'm going here is using anecdotal evidence to show inflation at work ... what you providing to counter that evidence? Oh that's right ... absolutely nothing. What was it you said about attacking the evidence and not the person? Hypocrite much?

 

There was no argument, seeing your whole idea was flawed from the beginning. "I make 499k per chance cube, that's why the chance cubes are good. People who say they are bad are bad or not very well implemented are wrong because they simply can't use them right!"

 

Yeah ok now you want to try entirely raise that argument in another thread.

Go back to the thread, raise it again, msg me when you've responded to my latest post and I'll respond in kind.

 

Stop acting like a child and ruining another thread because you are butt hurt over not being able to counter the last points I put forward in that thread.

 

 

 

Your recent sales are not in any way indicative of an overall inflation across all servers. I sold my recent augments (type 40 and purple) for 35k a piece. I sold 40 defensive armour modifications for 39k a piece. A single Info-Scraper sold for about 7k on the Progenitor for a few days. My subjective evidence would suggest there is no inflation. But that's not what I am claiming since it is ridiculous.

 

Read back in the thread for reason for why crafted goods and materials are most likely not subject to infaltion. Feel free to respond to that post since I've already addressed that point.

 

 

 

Ah the ole "let's post childish links to youtube clips" routine ... wow this is getting truly sad now.

 

And where is your evidence that there is not a good portion of players who make crafting their focus AND like to gather nodes? I'm still waiting on that evidence. Up until now, I only see you claiming I am the only one who occassionaly likes to go out and farm some nodes. I'm waiting.

 

Good portion or majority? What is a "good portion"? 5? 10? 50? If the minority suffers something that is clearly not required to benefit both themselves and everyone else in the long run then that is for the greater good. I've shown you how the majority can't be harvesting nodes because it would be blatantly obvious from anyone with eyes in their heads to see if they were.

 

 

I'm making a case for not removing the nodes because we cannot guarantee that it will not further antagonize some players who like to farm materials and sell them using this method. And it's reasonable to assume that people who like crafting might also like to farm materials by using nodes instead of waiting 23m without doing anything at all.

 

Your entitled to do so but again sacrifices need to sometimes be made.

I am highly confident there is a greater portion of players who would have wanted new raids than there are players who like to harvest nodes as their main rason for playing this game. Yet no new raids so they could focus on story content? Why? Because story content is seen to be for the greater good since clearly their metrics show more people want and play it than raids.

I may not like this, many may not like this yet it is what it is and Bioware need do what is best for Bioware - not for you personally and hey if removing nodes lead to you unsubscribing ... that would almost be a positive from where I'm sitting.

 

 

You simply state that it is a fact that there is barely anyone who ever likes to farm nodes for a few hours each week/month to supply themselves with materials for the month. I'm still waiting for the link.

 

Travel to planet - open eyes - look around - don't see 100s/1000s of players harvesting nodes - conclude the majority don't harvest nodes. Can you offer anything to the contrary to support your view from your own observations or any anecdotal evidence other than your own pure opinion?

 

I also made 23m during the past week, but mostly through smaller sales. Without knowing how you made those 35m, it is only a number. If you sold 350 augmentations for 100k each, that still doesn't mean that people with large amounts of money spend all that money rather quickly.

 

That has what to do with what you quoted exactly? Aren't you suppsoed to justify your point of how basically the richer players in the game aren't spending credits? That doesn't even come close to demonstrating this.

 

 

Personal insults and trying to ridicule? Again? Dude...do you even ad hominem?

 

If the shoe fits ...

 

MeNaCe, I'm through with argumenting with you. The only thing you do throughout your posts is either stating how much money you have and thus try to claim to be an authority, or you simply try to attack an argument based on an ad hominem approach. Half your long posts are actually attacking the person behind the argument, not posting any relevant criticism to the argument. You repeat what your proposed solution, add a single sentence of a non-relevant explanation, then proceed with three barely even relevant quotes and try to make an attack.

 

Lol sure you are, that's why you felt the need to track me down and raise the argument you couldn't even finish in another thread again.

 

You'll be back ... I really don't think you can help yourself.

[peter_plankskull]

-MASSIVE SNIP-

 

Since when do you multi quote now Menace? .

 

As for the OP...how in the dark lords name is this even a problem... and how is this thread been going on for so long?

 

Lets be honest here...this thread has gone on long enough and no one really changed there opinions on anything, I think its best to just let this thread go.

Edited March 1, 2016 by peter_plankskull

[ivanhedgehog]

new post about more of these bots here http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=874343

 

i see that you don't understand basic supply and demand. by reducing prices they increase demand. and the reason they can reduce prices is because they produce hundreds of millions daily through the exploit of this game design/mistake when they combine it with bots and teleport bots.

 

or it could be that less people are buying from them because they are running heroics to get cash. unless you are a. a bioware employee or b. an gold seller you have no idea which it is.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

You were the one who asked for proof that they have done something against bots before. I was courteous enough to do so even though I had no obligation in doing so because I believe in stating facts not opinions. Yet here you are again assuming you know whats best for the game's economy even though you don't have one iota of the metrics BW does. Even if it was a publicity stunt who cares this isn't your game you don't own those shiny pixels and credits, you pay to have the privilege to access them. Like I said before you don't throw out anything other than anecdotal evidence and still have no ground to stand on but I can respect you feeling a different way, just please don't claim it as a fact it makes you seem like a pompous and conceited.

 

 

I will choose to ignore it but you do have the right to express otherwise. Like I said before you don't throw out anything other than anecdotal evidence and still have no ground to stand on but I can respect you feeling a different way, just please don't claim it as a fact it makes you come off as pompous and conceited. You don't know whats better for this game's economy then BW and that is fact plain and simple.

 

Right so I don't have any facts yet when I give you 5 facts you choose to ignore them? What was it you said about pompous and conceited again?

 

Whilst your post was indeed a fact of one instance of something being done to address some bots it did nothing to address the issues of bots on the whole. "But MeNaCe how can you prove this?!" - Go to Yavin, see bots, know it's not fixed.

 

Now you want to take the standpoint of "but you don't know what's better for BW economy"? None of us really do, heck at times I believe even Bioware don't ( hence the on going changes to things like cartel packs ) - does this mean we shouldn't discuss/argue them? If that's the case ... why are you here?

 

Now to the nitty gritty ... you seem to think I don't know what is best for the economy, that I am somehow wrong in my observations and conclusions? Well let's hear it then ... what is wrong with them precisely? How am I mistaken about the economy? How do you view it differently to me?

I would like to hear these things or are you just going to prattle on with "you don't know what is right, only Bioware does!" to which I would say "Ok squirrelballz, that's nice, now go play in the corner whilst the adults are talking".