Slicing nodes broken, giving way too many credits since 4.1

[PlacidDragon]

I almost envy the people who can stomach taking advantage of this...I tried it out as well and after half an hour I was bored out of my mind and went back to doing something else.

A bot doesn't have feelings, and it does not get tired (it can get confused though, if you mess with it, hehe).

 

Some apparent players does not seem to get tired of it though..i've been through there 5 - 6 times the last week or so (leveling multiple characters in KOFTE, and you have to pass through there during the story), and i took note of two of the names that were there at least 3 of the times (i wasn't looking initially, but on the third or so time i was like "hey, i regocnise that guy").

 

Thats when i decided to go with the "test run"

[Synbane]

I think the nodes are fine. There not the reason the inflation of the gtn is so bad you can not afford things. The people crying about this change are the gtn whales and cm buyers that think placing items on the gtn for any price is ok. I been watching this thread for a week and its gotten out of hand. This part if the game does not need a nerfed, matter a fact the GMs need a pat on the back for the fix to afford items on the gtn and raid repairs.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I don't know what's humourous about it, it's only because of this method that I was able to afford it to begin with. And I haven't been here long, but that top was even more expensive before 4.1. Reducing the credit rate for the slicing won't reduce the inflation of the higher priced cartel items.

 

You actually paid that? Wow ... that's over double what they used to go for - what server?

 

Yes it will - if people like you don't pay 7 million then ideally listers won't have any choice but to drop the prices. Also if as people are saying you can make more credits doing heroics why did you do node gathering to make the credits?

I also hope you checked to ensure the whole armor set or upper crate wasn't cheaper - too often people buy the piece without realising there is a far cheaper alternative.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I find myself in the situation, again, of both thinking that there's a problem (botters, etc, in this case), but also thinking that a good deal of the frothing rage about the issue is so overblown that I'd rather see nothing changed than see the calls for NERF NERF NERF GAME IS DYING EVERY HOUR OMG BIOWARE SHUT DOWN THE SERVERS UNTIL YOU FIX THIS result in yet another case of Bioware carpet bombing to kill a housefly.

 

Ahh did anyone else miss Max's hyperbole whilst he wasn't around the forums for a while? I sure did, it's often worth a laugh and helps lighten another otherwise meaningful discussion.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

the people that are passionate about nuking slicing are the gtn whales that sell their credits to gold sellers. works both ways doesnt it?

 

Ok ... so players sell credits to the players doing the botting who ideally now don't need to buy credits due to how easily they can earn them? Makes a whole lot of sense.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I think the nodes are fine. There not the reason the inflation of the gtn is so bad you can not afford things. The people crying about this change are the gtn whales and cm buyers that think placing items on the gtn for any price is ok. I been watching this thread for a week and its gotten out of hand. This part if the game does not need a nerfed, matter a fact the GMs need a pat on the back for the fix to afford items on the gtn and raid repairs.

 

Right sooo they are causing inflation ... it's people listing things really high that is causing inflation even though we have been able to do that since the start of the game ...

Ever stop to wonder and question who, how and why people are paying these prices now but not before?

 

Much like the Cartel packs and people saying "if you want BW to change them stop buying them" this is similar - the prices will continue to stay high or go higher as long as people will pay so much.

[PlacidDragon]

You actually paid that? Wow ... that's over double what they used to go for - what server?

 

Yes it will - if people like you don't pay 7 million then ideally listers won't have any choice but to drop the prices. Also if as people are saying you can make more credits doing heroics why did you do node gathering to make the credits?

I also hope you checked to ensure the whole armor set or upper crate wasn't cheaper - too often people buy the piece without realising there is a far cheaper alternative.

Prices in general keeps rising (except for specialty materials like from UT and TH, which are cheaper than ever. I guess everyone has maxed toons with those skills now, and are churning out a gazillion items).

 

Take the Hypercrate as an example. Normal price for a Hypercrate was 10 - 12 mill when it was brand new (as in, just off unlock), then it would slowly go down as supply increased and demand lessened (at its lowest, i think it was under 6 mill for most of the recent shipments).

 

Until the most recent pack (i cant even remember the name of it). Anarchist or something. That started at 25 mill, and is down to 19 or so now. This has dragged the old packs with it, and a Strategy Alliance Hypercrate, which would go for 6 or 7 mill at the most now go for over 12 (and prices go up every time they are relisted).

 

Maybe im old, slow, and generally uninformed, but this crazy price increase does not seem to correlate to a sudden titanic increase in income in the game. Well, that i am aware of at least

 

Server : Red Eclipse.

[IanArgent]

It's the saber that's in the current pack that has demand through the roof for the packs

[ArkhaanPremiare]

You actually paid that? Wow ... that's over double what they used to go for - what server?

 

Yes it will - if people like you don't pay 7 million then ideally listers won't have any choice but to drop the prices. Also if as people are saying you can make more credits doing heroics why did you do node gathering to make the credits?

I also hope you checked to ensure the whole armor set or upper crate wasn't cheaper - too often people buy the piece without realising there is a far cheaper alternative.

 

Hell no I didn't pay no damn 7 million. But I'd previously lost all 5 million of my credits in the mail during a transfer. I was about to give up because there was no way I was going to grind heroics for a week again. With this method, I had it all back in about 6-7 hours. If lower GTN prices means going back to grinding credits from heroics for multiple days at a time, forget it. I'd rather the prices be higher. Even though lowering the reward from the nodes or removing them altogether will absolutely not fix that. The gambling addicts with lodes of money from spamming hypercrate purchases are the ones causing the apparent inflation.

[TheSeventhJedi]

Man, I don't usually get on and farm, but at those prices, it might be worth it...

[Mezarkan]

Hell no I didn't pay no damn 7 million. But I'd previously lost all 5 million of my credits in the mail during a transfer. I was about to give up because there was no way I was going to grind heroics for a week again. With this method, I had it all back in about 6-7 hours. If lower GTN prices means going back to grinding credits from heroics for multiple days at a time, forget it. I'd rather the prices be higher. Even though lowering the reward from the nodes or removing them altogether will absolutely not fix that. The gambling addicts with lodes of money from spamming hypercrate purchases are the ones causing the apparent inflation.

 

 

cartel items don't increase inflation, they just move credits around between players

 

stuff like slicing nodes which generate credits and are easily botted causes inflation

 

inflation = more currency in the system

[Max_Killjoy]

So we're back to where more currency in "the system" automatically causes inflation, and it supposedly has nothing to do with supply and demand issues with the non-currency goods and services in the system?

 

Does this mean that the massive influx of currency into the real US economy over the last ~7 years didn't happen, or that there's been all sorts of inflation going on that none of us have noticed and that no one is reporting on?

 

I'm also wondering how you explain the way that the price of oil has plummeted from its recent peak.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[squirrelballz]

Slicing is fine and in a good place after a log time. All these armchair economic experts in this game, I wonder what all of you guys are doing here instead of working as a Dev and putting your skills to use.

 

I've criticized the Devs recently on some things but I want to give them a pat on their backs for this one and I will buy some more cartel market items and slice to feed their metrics. Nobody is more vested into the game's economy as much as BW is and I guarantee when the day comes that BW is worried about the economy they will flush credits out of the economy like kingdom come, and yes that means taking care of bots which btw they have done before.

 

If BW decides this needs a nerf so be it I'll accept it and adjust it's not like they haven't nerfed so many things already or changed things drastically. Realistically this economy is nothing but pixels, your credits don't matter and are the sole property and rights of BW so please stop with the pompous, egotistical "I'm so rich in MMO and cool because I have pixels." There is a world out there with actual economic problems that needs your "expertise" instead of a virtual world.

Edited February 29, 2016 by squirrelballz

[Mezarkan]

So we're back to where more currency in "the system" automatically causes inflation, and it supposedly has nothing to do with supply and demand issues with the non-currency goods and services in the system?

 

Does this mean that the massive influx of currency into the real US economy over the last ~7 years didn't happen, or that there's been all sorts of inflation going on that none of us have noticed and that no one is reporting on?

 

I'm also wondering how you explain the way that the price of oil has plummeted from its recent peak.

 

 

 

right, as the great economist milton friedman once said "Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon"

 

there has been massive inflation in the united states which has created huge bubbles, particularly in the oil shale industry. that industry was loaned tons of money because of the artificially low rates of the federal reserve and now most of them are going bankrupt as this bubble caused the price of oil to drop to around 30 dollars a barrel due to the huge supply created.

 

don't expect reporters to report on it. most of them are below 110 iq people. just as they didn't report on the housing collapse in 2008 before it happened which was caused by the goverment getting banks to lower loan standards and artificially low rates of the federal reserve so that politicians could say more people became home owners under their term in office.

[Max_Killjoy]

I bow to your massive capacity to explain away anything that doesn't support your foregone opinion.

[Khevar]

So we're back to where more currency in "the system" automatically causes inflation, and it supposedly has nothing to do with supply and demand issues with the non-currency goods and services in the system?

You make a good point that supply and demand issues MUST be considered when viewing prices of things.

 

But an MMO economy is a bit of an odd duck. Every time you turn in a quest, every time you loot a mob, every time you sell something to a vendor, credits are "magically" created and now exist. And every time you buy something from a vendor, pay a transportation fee, pay a cosmetic fee (e.g. appearance tab), credits are "magically" deleted and no longer exist.

 

Inflation in the absence of "more currency in 'the system'" seems very unlikely to me. More likely the two would go hand-in-hand.

 

This doesn't mean that slicing boxes should be nerfed. But it does mean slicing boxes (in their current incarnation) do have the potential to cause inflation.

[DawnAskham]

I find myself in the situation, again, of both thinking that there's a problem (botters, etc, in this case), but also thinking that a good deal of the frothing rage about the issue is so overblown that I'd rather see nothing changed than see the calls for NERF NERF NERF GAME IS DYING EVERY HOUR OMG BIOWARE SHUT DOWN THE SERVERS UNTIL YOU FIX THIS result in yet another case of Bioware carpet bombing to kill a housefly.

 

Even if they magically started detecting and banning botters, I'd still question the unannounced buff to nodes.

 

In the same patch where nodes where buffed (without a patch note BTW), there were quite a number of unintentional changes (bugs), so I'd like to hear from Bioware if the buff was intentional or is a bug (both for open world lock boxes and for mission lock boxes as both are now all prototype (blue) quality).

 

It just seems strange to me after multiple patches to reduce slicing node credits, reduce credits dropped from enemies, and remove credits from chests, that they would start buffing slicing nodes without saying anything.

 

Oh and I don't want it nerfed to oblivion, just reverted to where it was pre 4.1 if it is in fact a bug.

 

Though as a follow-up to the above, I feel they aren't doing enough to deal with bots, and if the reason is they don't have the technical resources to monitor their game effectively, then they should make it more difficult for bots to generate credits (which could include removing slicing boxes as well as other changes to more closely tie credit generation to activities which are difficult to bot).

Edited February 29, 2016 by DawnAskham

[Max_Killjoy]

You make a good point that supply and demand issues MUST be considered when viewing prices of things.

 

But an MMO economy is a bit of an odd duck. Every time you turn in a quest, every time you loot a mob, every time you sell something to a vendor, credits are "magically" created and now exist. And every time you buy something from a vendor, pay a transportation fee, pay a cosmetic fee (e.g. appearance tab), credits are "magically" deleted and no longer exist.

 

Inflation in the absence of "more currency in 'the system'" seems very unlikely to me. More likely the two would go hand-in-hand.

 

This doesn't mean that slicing boxes should be nerfed. But it does mean slicing boxes (in their current incarnation) do have the potential to cause inflation.

 

You make an utterly reasonable statement there.

 

I'm not making an authoritative declaration that there's no way that mass credit sales or excessive credit "supply" in the game could ever contribute to inflation. I'm just questioning the bald-faced assumption that any sign of inflation must without doubt trace directly back to slicing nodes and massive botting.

 

Inflation of the going price on certain in-game items can take place without an overall increase in the credit supply, if certain players are able to disproportionately accumulate credits and are willing to pay prices that no one else can afford to pay.

 

In a way, I hesitate to even call what goes on in an MMO an "economy". All scarcity is contrived, there aren't REALLY any necessities that MUST be purchased to avoid death, and as you note, currency doesn't circulate (unless it's GTN/trade transactions).

Edited February 29, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[Wintermutes]

So we're back to where more currency in "the system" automatically causes inflation, and it supposedly has nothing to do with supply and demand issues with the non-currency goods and services in the system?

 

Inflation IS, by definition, an increase in the nominal cost of a good based on a greater amount of currency chasing those goods.

 

If you're talking about broad based (economy wide) increase in price, that means pretty much an increase in the supply of money, in in SWTOR means an increase in the number of credits in circulation. This does not have to be because of slicing nodes. It could be because more credits are coming from other sources, or because the "sinks" for currency are not effective.

 

Does this mean that the massive influx of currency into the real US economy over the last ~7 years didn't happen, or that there's been all sorts of inflation going on that none of us have noticed and that no one is reporting on? "

 

US Dollars are used as a worldwide currency, so there is a much greater ability to absorb those dollars without causing noticeable inflation. As well, quite a few people have reported on broad based increases in food price, which aren't including in the econometrics for inflation (along with energy, food prices are historically so volatile that economists feel that they obscure rather than illuminate the cause and effect of inflation).

 

I'm also wondering how you explain the way that the price of oil has plummeted from its recent peak.

 

Overproduction, combined with downward trend from the anticipated demand, especially in China, which is "only" growing about 5-6% domestically this year, compared to a more recent growth trend of 10-15% yearly. So, supply of oil, demand for oil. Again, energy prices are historically volatile, and especially rife for speculators. Oil prices have been yo-yo'ing the past few weeks based on "news" rather than actual changes in supply.

 

In any case, an MMO economy is a closed economy, and much easier to understand than a real world economy (which actually makes it a very cool place for economics nerds and students to get their feet wet).

 

Unfortunately, we do not have the information that BioWare might (should) have about the total supply and circulation of currency in the SWTOR economy.

 

Personally, I have not seen broad based inflation since 4.1. I have seen a jump in the price of a very select range of goods, and steady downward pressure on most other goods. Whatever effect Slicing Nodes are having seems to be negligible in the face of anything/everything else that's going on. I suspect that players are really over estimating how many slicing nodes there are vs mission rewards, world drops, etc.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Wintermutes

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Prices in general keeps rising (except for specialty materials like from UT and TH, which are cheaper than ever. I guess everyone has maxed toons with those skills now, and are churning out a gazillion items).

 

They key with those items is there is generally an unlimited supply and supply is always going to outstrip demand regardless of the amounts of credits in circulation. There are specialist times like crafting conquest weeks where demand soars but generally increase in the amount of credits in circulation won't affect those materials. Especially when you add to this people can be self sufficient in this regard ( gather their own ) if prices get too high ... it tends to keep things static regardless of credits in circulation.

 

Take the Hypercrate as an example. Normal price for a Hypercrate was 10 - 12 mill when it was brand new (as in, just off unlock), then it would slowly go down as supply increased and demand lessened (at its lowest, i think it was under 6 mill for most of the recent shipments).

 

Until the most recent pack (i cant even remember the name of it). Anarchist or something. That started at 25 mill, and is down to 19 or so now. This has dragged the old packs with it, and a Strategy Alliance Hypercrate, which would go for 6 or 7 mill at the most now go for over 12 (and prices go up every time they are relisted).

 

Now we're talking about something that has it's pricing far more subject to supply and demand. Supply is limited by the amount of real money being spent on the game to buy the packs ( or referral CC but this is still a limited supply too ) and demand will be dictated by generally the items in the packs and their popularity ( the recent anarchist pack was super popular - it arguably had some of the nicest items we've seen grouped together in 1 pack for a long time plus the saber plus the chance cube which sells well on the GTN plus can give players who didn't have everything a shot at stuff they might not otherwise be able to get ).

 

Maybe im old, slow, and generally uninformed, but this crazy price increase does not seem to correlate to a sudden titanic increase in income in the game. Well, that i am aware of at least

 

We also have to relate the price increases to all limited supply items too thus basically any CM items on the GTN, operations drops ( and the schematics that rely on them like DMC based crafted goods ).

 

Now whilst we can argue that the anarchist pack costs so much more because it's got such great items in it we can't really apply that argument to items not purely contained therein.

If anything we would expect older gold items prices to decrease, not increase because the chance cubes are increasing the supply of them.

Again this is a bit of an assumption because it does come on the back of BSG packs that would have boosted supply of gold items which the chance cubes may not be keeping those levels of supply.

 

What we do know is that credit prices by gold sellers are dropping drastically and we can associate this the slicing change ( unless there is some other change that has incredibly boosted their credit stocks ). This then becomes much more attractive means for players to get the in game CM etc. items they want for cheaper and in a much more convenient manner ( i.e. not relying on RNG drops from packs or having to sell CM items to get credits to then buy what they want ).

What then happens as the amount of credits increase but the supply remains static or even drops ( due to less CM purchases ) is it drives the prices up because before I could list a sith recluse upper crate ( for example from something I've actually done ) piece for 20 million and be ignored ( because not many people have or can justify the credits to buy it ) I can now sell it for over 30 million within a day.

 

Now this could be from people now justifying the cost as it's $24 in credits from a gold seller ( cost has gone to like under $0.80 per mill ) if they are willing to purchase from such OR it could be from the gold sellers themselves driving the market up and it makes sense if you think on it...

You have all these credits you want to sell - more than you can ever sell probably. You then see people making good earnings from the slicing nodes and the heroics so they can now afford items relatively quickly from doing the activities in game. Stuff that you think, you want them to buy your credits so you start using your huge excess supply to buy up rare, desirable items that have very limited supply ( so not really bronze so much since cubes drop so many of them ) and then relist for stupidly higher prices. As you and other gold sellers continue this practice week to week, month to month all of a sudden the luxury items aren't affordable at all from honest in game means and people either have to buy packs and chance RNG or buy from a gold seller for cheap credits to buy these items.

 

The more you think on it the more it becomes apparent that BW will have to do something about this one way or another and soon because it can't be helping their bottom line any having credits being generated like this.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Hell no I didn't pay no damn 7 million. But I'd previously lost all 5 million of my credits in the mail during a transfer. I was about to give up because there was no way I was going to grind heroics for a week again. With this method, I had it all back in about 6-7 hours. If lower GTN prices means going back to grinding credits from heroics for multiple days at a time, forget it. I'd rather the prices be higher. Even though lowering the reward from the nodes or removing them altogether will absolutely not fix that. .

 

Grind heroics that could pay more faster vs spending 7-8 hours clicking nodes manually? Err ... ok.

Maybe I'm wrong on the heroic front - I'm just assuming they pay more based on what others in this thread have said to try show why slicing nodes aren't that big of a deal ( and they're not - the bots are but nothing can or will be done to stop the bots so something needs to change with the nodes ).

 

What method anyway? Are you automating this or something because you make out like standing on a planet going back and forward between nodes clicking is somehow less grindy than heroics?

 

The gambling addicts with lodes of money from spamming hypercrate purchases are the ones causing the apparent inflation

 

Increasing supply will ideally reduce inflation on the cost of those items, not increase it ... just saying.

 

Also higher prices mean more grinding regardless of what sort of grinding it is.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

, and yes that means taking care of bots which btw they have done before.

 

ORLY? So they want these bots here doing this then? Because according to this statement they have the means to do it but are basically choosing not to?

 

Got anything to show where they "have done before"?

 

If BW decides this needs a nerf so be it I'll accept it and adjust it's not like they haven't nerfed so many things already or changed things drastically. Realistically this economy is nothing but pixels, your credits don't matter and are the sole property and rights of BW so please stop with the pompous, egotistical "I'm so rich in MMO and cool because I have pixels." There is a world out there with actual economic problems that needs your "expertise" instead of a virtual world.

 

Often those providing said expertise work in said real world - just calling people "armchair economic experts" doesn't make anything being said wrong ( because well you've not tried once to counter anything being said, just more refuting to the tired old ad hominem style argument ).

If you want to show how it's wrong then show it.

 

On the side I would be happy if they did something about the bots and automation of this and left the nodes as is, it would be my primary solution if there was one because people making more credits means MeNaCe making more credits.

However ... I really don't see a way they are going to target the bots specifically and I know BW take the easy route so expect nerf hammer of doom. Unless of course you can demonstrate how they've dealt with bots in the past as you eluded to?

[Synbane]

Ok so let me get this straight, You do not like the fact that people are stable in game and have credits to buy what ever they want I game? To me this sounds like a stable economy, or a profitable way for "you" and others to make cash on the gtn. it buys things people needs like "stims, buffs, decos, companion gifts". For what ever reason your not liking credits in game is beyond my thinking I guess. OP Please you need to see the value of this open idea of people making credits other then GTN farming or selling resources threw the missions which costs more to get then to sell. And trying to nerf the slicing boxes is not going to help bring down prices, people are going to sell items the way they see fits.

[IanArgent]

I've read some serious studies of MMO economies, both performed by economists and by MMO designers, and it's a fascinating subject. It's also apparently rather more similar to "real-world" economies than you might think, though not necessarily at the "full economy" level; more like a regional or sub-economy.

 

The thing is, the devs actually KNOW a lot of things about their economy that have to be "Assumed" by real-life economists. They know exactly how much money is in the game, how much of it is "mobile," etc. (In an MMO like this one, defunct accounts basically sink the credits in their wallets. Those credits don't stop existing, but they're taken out of the system for most practical purposes).

 

Let me be clear about my own position - I don't have the data one way or another to say if there is inflation. I actually suspect not - in fact I suspect that overall, repair bills are up overall (smaller individual repair bills, but more fights/minute enabled by healer companions); the "optional" credit sinks (strongholds, mainly) are bigger, etc. And if GTN prices are up, so are the GTN listing costs. For that matter, I think the devs may have deliberately increased the amount of liquidity in the system - more credits overall, in an effort to drive down demand for the credit-vendor's wares. It's easier than ever to earn credits by playing the actual game; why should I go to a dodgy credit vendor's dodgy website when I can turn a couple hundred thousand credits by doing a couple of heroics, especially in a group?

 

(The biggest problem with inflation in the real world, that it wipes out savings, isn't as big of a concern in this game, nobody's saving for retirement.)

[ivanhedgehog]

Ok ... so players sell credits to the players doing the botting who ideally now don't need to buy credits due to how easily they can earn them? Makes a whole lot of sense.

 

people that made billions of credits in the last exploit sold them to the gold seller companies for thousands of dollars. so yes, some people have a vested interest to see gold seller prices remain high