The Guardian/Jugg needs a buff

[zAerophoneix]

So apparently a Guardian/Jugg can only pull 6.7k highest on a dummy but a mara can pull 7.4k? How come there is a 700 dps difference? How do we do Nightmare if we can't pull the numbers on lower dps classes like sorcs and guardians?

 

Can't we just balance out every single class and make each one do the same damage? 7k each?

[GrandLordMenace]

So apparently a Guardian/Jugg can only pull 6.7k highest on a dummy but a mara can pull 7.4k? How come there is a 700 dps difference? How do we do Nightmare if we can't pull the numbers on lower dps classes like sorcs and guardians?

 

Can't we just balance out every single class and make each one do the same damage? 7k each?

 

Maras are skewed since devs haven't nerfed watchman yet, also dummy dps doesn't matter. I stopped caring about dummy parsing when I realized that everyone I knew on my server could beat me on a dummy, but a lot of them couldn't beat me when I was going HAM in a fight, so I just focused on going HAM in fights and learning how to be flexible as a dps while still adhering to the rotation using pvp.

 

Also there's a guardian with a 6.9 on the 1.5 iirc.

Edited February 8, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[sumquy]

Can't we just balance out every single class and make each one do the same damage? 7k each?

 

the entire history of swtor, summed up in one frustrated sentence.

[Tintfax]

 

Also there's a guardian with a 6.9 on the 1.5 iirc.

True, but i had some lucky crits. The average of my parses is 6.7-6.8.

 

In my opinion Rage should be reworked. It would be nice if Juggs/Guardians had a second spec they could switch to... for "bursty" fights... like Maro/Sents can. But who cares... without Content, it doesn't matter anymore.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

So apparently a Guardian/Jugg can only pull 6.7k highest on a dummy but a mara can pull 7.4k? How come there is a 700 dps difference? How do we do Nightmare if we can't pull the numbers on lower dps classes like sorcs and guardians?

 

Can't we just balance out every single class and make each one do the same damage? 7k each?

 

Disclaimer - Please excuse the many grammatical errors, my spell check isn't working and I'm virtually illiterate.

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That would be vastly unfair to Marauders if suddenly Juggs did as much damage as they did.

 

Basically what you are advocating is to have Juggs able to do as much damage as a marauder but have superior defensive abilities and better overall survival than a marauder. How is that fair?

It would literally make marauders a totally obsolete, redundant class.

 

How would you like it as a player of a Jugg if in the next patch marauders were than able to use heavy armor, have access to the same defensive and 'self-healing'as juggs while still having the superior dps curve over Juggs? As the player of a marauder [i don't play Juggs, although I did for a little while just to see what they were about], I would think it was vastly unfair to Juggs and even though it would be to my benefit [best of both worlds], I would lend my voice that marauders be nerfed back to their current form, leaving Juggs the superior survival option.

 

Marauders were the red-headed bastard children of 3.0, they were the pure dps class that no one wanted to bring along into their raids. While it is true that to a large extent that applied to other mdps classes as well with regard to Rav/Tos for the unfriendly mdps mechanics, juggs superior survival abilities made them more desirable to bring along if there had to be a mdps coming.

 

Marauders are a pure dps class [snipers being the only other pure dps class in the game], Juggs are not a pure dps class. Juggs have a the greater option of being able to play two different roles if they like, dps and/or tank. Marauders can only play the dps role, less options. A pure dps class should do better dps than a class that has greater options and role choices.

 

Juggs have better overall survival than marauders, that's why they do better in pvp than marauders do, by and large. Marauders have better overall dps than juggs, that's why marauders get targeted immediately for execution in pvp.

 

If you want to be able to do better dps than juggs can in their current state, play a marauder. That's what they are for. That's ALL they are for.

 

Part of the reason that many people opt for juggs even though thier dps isn't quite as good as marauders is because it is alot easier to play a jugg than it is to play a marauder, skill wise. It is a generally accepted and acknowledged fact that to be good at playing a marauder requires a higher skill set to be effective. A marauder needs greater raid awareness, takes more damage than just about any other class except for a tank, has no self healing [ I do believe that even most anni users will tell you that the self heals that the annihilation specs are so paultry as to be virtually non-existent heh] and even at that anni is only one spec of three. The only self-healing the other two specs of marauders get are med packs.

 

Your suggestion of 'balancing every single class, making them all do the same damage' would accomplish the exact opposite of that goal. It would cause a rediculous unbalancing of the classes. What we would find in such a scenario is the complete extinction of the dps role in the game. The game would become only tank and healer roles. Why would anyone play a dps role, when they could play a healer or a tank and have all the abilities of those roles in addition to being able to do as much dps as a dps class could.

 

Healer has all those heals and can do 7k dps. -

DPS can do 7k without having any heals.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Tank has all his defensive/survival abilities and can do 7k dps.

DPS can do 7k dps with none of a tanks defensive/survival abilities.

---------------------------------------------------------------

DPS can do 7k dps. That's it.

 

Not my definition of fair and balanced.

 

If juggs get the same dps as marauders, than marauders should get the heavy armor and superior dcds that juggs have.

When I rolled my Marauder it was because of my preference to do greater damage at the cost of being easier to kill. I can only assume than when you rolled your Jugg it was because of a preference to be harder to kill at the cost of some damage potential.

 

There's a reason Marauders are called glass canons, they break easier than the more heartier of classes [i.e. juggs] but they hit like trucks.

 

 

Marauders do better dps than juggs, you have one lightsaber to hit people with, we hit people with two lightsabers, that's a whole extra weapon [that misses a good deal of the time, but I digress =p]. If that sounds like something you'd want to experience, roll a Marauder, they are a ton of fun to play.

 

If bioware ever did give Juggs the same dps as marauders without giving marauders the same defensive/survival abilities that juggs have, I can't imagine I would be the only one unsubbing and leaving the game over it.

 

[And yes, you can have my stuff =p]

Edited February 9, 2016 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[GrandLordMenace]

Disclaimer - Please excuse the many grammatical errors, my spell check isn't working and I'm virtually illiterate.

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That would be vastly unfair to Marauders if suddenly Juggs did as much damage as they did.

 

Basically what you are advocating is to have Juggs able to do as much damage as a marauder but have superior defensive abilities and better overall survival than a marauder. How is that fair?

It would literally make marauders a totally obsolete, redundant class.

 

How would you like it as a player of a Jugg if in the next patch marauders were than able to use heavy armor, have access to the same defensive and 'self-healing'as juggs while still having the superior dps curve over Juggs? As the player of a marauder [i don't play Juggs, although I did for a little while just to see what they were about], I would think it was vastly unfair to Juggs and even though it would be to my benefit [best of both worlds], I would lend my voice that marauders be nerfed back to their current form, leaving Juggs the superior survival option.

 

Marauders were the red-headed bastard children of 3.0, they were the pure dps class that no one wanted to bring along into their raids. While it is true that to a large extent that applied to other mdps classes as well with regard to Rav/Tos for the unfriendly mdps mechanics, juggs superior survival abilities made them more desirable to bring along if there had to be a mdps coming.

 

Marauders are a pure dps class [snipers being the only other pure dps class in the game], Juggs are not a pure dps class. Juggs have a the greater option of being able to play two different roles if they like, dps and/or tank. Marauders can only play the dps role, less options. A pure dps class should do better dps than a class that has greater options and role choices.

 

Juggs have better overall survival than marauders, that's why they do better in pvp than marauders do, by and large. Marauders have better overall dps than juggs, that's why marauders get targeted immediately for execution in pvp.

 

If you want to be able to do better dps than juggs can in their current state, play a marauder. That's what they are for. That's ALL they are for.

 

Part of the reason that many people opt for juggs even though thier dps isn't quite as good as marauders is because it is alot easier to play a jugg than it is to play a marauder, skill wise. It is a generally accepted and acknowledged fact that to be good at playing a marauder requires a higher skill set to be effective. A marauder needs greater raid awareness, takes more damage than just about any other class except for a tank, has no self healing [ I do believe that even most anni users will tell you that the self heals that the annihilation specs are so paultry as to be virtually non-existent heh] and even at that anni is only one spec of three. The only self-healing the other two specs of marauders get are med packs.

 

Your suggestion of 'balancing every single class, making them all do the same damage' would accomplish the exact opposite of that goal. It would cause a rediculous unbalancing of the classes. What we would find in such a scenario is the complete extinction of the dps role in the game. The game would become only tank and healer roles. Why would anyone play a dps role, when they could play a healer or a tank and have all the abilities of those roles in addition to being able to do as much dps as a dps class could.

 

Healer has all those heals and can do 7k dps. -

DPS can do 7k without having any heals.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Tank has all his defensive/survival abilities and can do 7k dps.

DPS can do 7k dps with none of a tanks defensive/survival abilities.

---------------------------------------------------------------

DPS can do 7k dps. That's it.

 

Not my definition of fair and balanced.

 

If juggs get the same dps as marauders, than marauders should get the heavy armor and superior dcds that juggs have.

When I rolled my Marauder it was because of my preference to do greater damage at the cost of being easier to kill. I can only assume than when you rolled your Jugg it was because of a preference to be harder to kill at the cost of some damage potential.

 

There's a reason Marauders are called glass canons, they break easier than the more heartier of classes [i.e. juggs] but they hit like trucks.

 

 

Marauders do better dps than juggs, you have one lightsaber to hit people with, we hit people with two lightsabers, that's a whole extra weapon [that misses a good deal of the time, but I digress =p]. If that sounds like something you'd want to experience, roll a Marauder, they are a ton of fun to play.

 

If bioware ever did give Juggs the same dps as marauders without giving marauders the same defensive/survival abilities that juggs have, I can't imagine I would be the only one unsubbing and leaving the game over it.

 

[And yes, you can have my stuff =p]

 

No. No no no no no.

 

Juggernauts are actually worse than Marauders at survivability (for PvE.)

 

Every single cooldown marauders have are active mitigation, and they have much better passive defenses (fun fact, with rebuke, DR wise, Marauders are ALMOST a tank class). Juggernaut cooldowns aren't all that great for a lot of scenarios, for example focused defense doesn't do nearly as well as camo, or GBTF. A passive 30% aoe dr alone puts Sentinels on top, coupled with Force Camo, Transcendance, INSPIRATION, all these things are infinitely superior to the group utility of a juggernaut, which is essentially, a 2000 damage mitigation bubble, and the dps does not warrant the additional damage they take, except in certain fights where saber reflect is highly effective, which are Torque, EC tanks, and Kephess.

 

Marauders were NOT the red headed stepchild of 3.0, anyone proclaiming this is an idiot. WATCHMAN was butchered, and concentration borderline useless, but Combat was very usable, and has not changed a tiny bit in 4.0 outside of being nerfed and still very viable.

 

Also, there are a multitude of deficiencies inherent to Vigilance Guardians. They rely PRIMARILY on a channel on a melee class to do their single target damage, the only other class that shares this deficiency is Pyro PT. This is huge, as it means that they are essentially the sawed off shotgun of melee dps, and therefore should be doing more damage. (though I am personally of the opinion that nerfs > buffs). It will inherently be neutered on bosses relative to stationary dummy targets, an issue that a lot of specs, including watchman, where blade dance is only a filler move, and not something procced by the rotation, or required for the execution of said rotation.

 

Also, don't take the OP's comment at face value, because I wholeheartedly disagree. The hierarchy should go, roughly:

 

Sustained Low Mobility Melee: Watchman, Vigilance, Pyro

 

Sustained Mid range Melee: Lethality

 

Burst Melee/Ranged Sustained: Combat, Concentration, IO

 

Mid Ranged Burst: AP (if they toned down the cheese)

 

Ranged Burst: Gunnery, etc.

 

Then adjust via AOE, and keep the tanks and healers where they are.

Edited February 9, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Maras are skewed since devs haven't nerfed watchman yet, also dummy dps doesn't matter. I stopped caring about dummy parsing when I realized that everyone I knew on my server could beat me on a dummy, but a lot of them couldn't beat me when I was going HAM in a fight, so I just focused on going HAM in fights and learning how to be flexible as a dps while still adhering to the rotation using pvp.

 

Also there's a guardian with a 6.9 on the 1.5 iirc.

 

While I do agree with you that dummy parsing is a different beast from live raid action and you will be able to reach overall dps numbers while dummy parsing that you won't in live raids [generally speaking] , it does serve two very important purposes that directly effect ones performance in live raids. - Potential and superior rotation performance.

 

The higher the dps you are able to reach while dummy parsing, the higher your dps will be in live raids [preportionaly speaking]. Somone able to dummy parse at let's say 6.8k on average will in many instance do better dps in a live raid than someone who's max average dps during dummy parsing is 6.6k. Dummy parsing being the most opportuner set of permeters to parse in, this is where we find our max potential, someone whos dps ceiling is say 6.5 is in all likelihood never going to be able to match or exceed that in a live raid.

 

Rotation - Like anything else in life, practice makes perfect [not really, but that's the saying =p]. Dummy parsing is the best method of getting your rotation into practical muscle memory. Dummy parsing is the only place you will be able to practice the ideal rotation format [althought variations on the 'ideal rotation' are not uncommon]. The closer you can stick to the optimal rotation in a live raid the better dps numbers will be. Naturally we all know that sticking to a strict rotation is not only impractical in a live raid, it's pretty damn near impossible in many instances. Forced down times, phase sequences, dodging damaging mechanics, being thrown around the battle field and target switching all lend to make your rotation challenge to maintain through out the course of a boss fight. So making that ideal rotation muscle memory that you can employ in live raids as much as possible is really only possible to practice via dummy parsing. Live raids push us into the realm of prioroity rotation reactions, but they ideal is to stick to the optimal rotation as much as humanly possible. I totally agree with you about flexibility being key.

 

Additonally, dummy parsing improves your dps over time. Some one who doesn't practice their rotation as much as someone else of will not make the gains in dps compared to someone who does practice. You'd expect that someone who trains in karate four times a week will probably develop their fighting skills quicker than someone who practices only one or two days a week [all things being equal].

 

I do a lot of dummy parsing. This from being a marauder trying to be competive in end game hardmode raiding during the dreaded 3.0 era. Most of the members of my raid group would say that they could see the fruits of my parsing clearly, trying to perfect my rotation, because I didn't want to let them down. Speaking only for myself, I do consider that dummy parsing is one of the very best ways to improve one's dps. It is the place for experimenting, trying different things, making adjustments and seeing what works best for you. The numbers don't lie, but trial and error will show you overtime, what works best for you. In the end, being dps is only about one thing, doing the most amount of damage possible. What that possibility is, that's what you find out spending time with that dummy. The trick is, taking what you have learned experimenting with the dummy and translating it as closely as possible to live raid action. I couldn't agree more that it doesn't matter if your doing 9k on a dummy, its about how much of that number you can actually bring into a raid. Practice will never hurt that goal. Dummy parsing isn't about being other people's numbers, it's about beating your own numbers.

 

Regarding your watchman/annihilation spec coment - It should be noted that Watchman/Annihiliation is not the only spec that can hit 7k. Carnage/Combat is fully capable of hitting the 7k and up mark. I myself as a carnage marauder have hit 7k about 5 times so far [i only recently hit 7 for the first time] - This is my best of the lot so far - http://parsely.io/parser/view/132498/0, and there are instances of combat sentinels hitting in excess of 7.2k. [Props to Hayete and Kira =] ]

 

It's really not only about crits. You can have parses where you score more than 3 or 4% critical hits than other parses and yet still have a lower overall dps score at the end of the parse. RNG is still a factor, and all damage potentials give ranges and in that regard its no different than rolling a dice for damage. Sometimes ya just get better rolls than other times.

 

Fury is not doing very well now in pve [can be very good in pvp tho], it's amongst the lowest on the dps list - coming in at 17 out of 18 [Anni coming in first, Carnage coming in fourth], if anything, Juggs do Fury/Rage better than Maras/Sentinels.

 

 

Keep on rocken em in PVP, smart maras/sentinels should recognize juggs superiority in that setting. You guys are beasts in warzones. Its like trying to beat a concrete wall in a fist fight. heh

Edited February 9, 2016 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[xeqtoRDoom]

Never understood the hype behind dummy parsing. Parsing on a dummy is only good for practicing your rotation, getting out/recognizing mistakes and figuring out the priority on your abilities. Parsing for higher DPS is a waste of time and adrenals. If I do perfect rotation every time my dps will vary a lot and I have done nothing but wasted time. Practice for rotation not for DPS. Parsing higher doesn't make you a better player.

 

I have a guy in my raid team, who does around the same dps on a dummy but hes always behind me on bosses, where it actually matters. I am not talking about 100-200 dps behind cuz thats mostly rng, I am talking about around 1000 dps behind. In boss fights you will always make mistakes unlike the dummy parsing. You need to understand your class, all your abilities, how to keep a high uptime, boss mechanics and what ability to use when you mess up. That will help you more then chasing RNG to get extra 200 dps on a dummy.

 

Yes, Guardians/Juggernauts are weaker then some classes but they are viable in every ops if you know how to play them. Never had any problem meeting a dps check on my juggernaut. Maybe the problem is not the class but you.

Edited February 9, 2016 by xeqtoRDoom

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

No. No no no no no.

 

Juggernauts are actually worse than Marauders at survivability (for PvE.)

 

Every single cooldown marauders have are active mitigation, and they have much better passive defenses (fun fact, with rebuke, DR wise, Marauders are ALMOST a tank class). Juggernaut cooldowns aren't all that great for a lot of scenarios, for example focused defense doesn't do nearly as well as camo, or GBTF. A passive 30% aoe dr alone puts Sentinels on top, coupled with Force Camo, Transcendance, INSPIRATION, all these things are infinitely superior to the group utility of a juggernaut, which is essentially, a 2000 damage mitigation bubble, and the dps does not warrant the additional damage they take, except in certain fights where saber reflect is highly effective, which are Torque, EC tanks, and Kephess.

 

Marauders were NOT the red headed stepchild of 3.0, anyone proclaiming this is an idiot. WATCHMAN was butchered, and concentration borderline useless, but Combat was very usable, and has not changed a tiny bit in 4.0 outside of being nerfed and still very viable.

 

Also, there are a multitude of deficiencies inherent to Vigilance Guardians. They rely PRIMARILY on a channel on a melee class to do their single target damage, the only other class that shares this deficiency is Pyro PT. This is huge, as it means that they are essentially the sawed off shotgun of melee dps, and therefore should be doing more damage. (though I am personally of the opinion that nerfs > buffs). It will inherently be neutered on bosses relative to stationary dummy targets, an issue that a lot of specs, including watchman, where blade dance is only a filler move, and not something procced by the rotation, or required for the execution of said rotation.

 

Also, don't take the OP's comment at face value, because I wholeheartedly disagree. The hierarchy should go, roughly:

 

Sustained Low Mobility Melee: Watchman, Vigilance, Pyro

 

Sustained Mid range Melee: Lethality

 

Burst Melee/Ranged Sustained: Combat, Concentration, IO

 

Mid Ranged Burst: AP (if they toned down the cheese)

 

Ranged Burst: Gunnery, etc.

 

Then adjust via AOE, and keep the tanks and healers where they are.

 

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Than you're calling me an idiot. I'm the one that said it. I played a carnage marauder thruout the entirity of 3.0, maybe you did too, I don't know. That said, I don't imagine you would find to many people who played marauders in end game hm progression during 3.0 who'd disagree with that comment. Hell, even trying to get into SM Rav/ToS for a while there as a mara was spoty. Maybe you had a different experience on your server, but on the Shadowlands, it was not uncommon to get turned away from Rav/Tos for being a Mara. It was all about rDPS, mercs were everybodies love toy, and powertechs reigned supreme [ despite being mdps heh], a tank with their buffs went a long way [sonic rebound was not Underlurkers friend].

 

I'll say this much plainly, anyone who says that Marauders didnt face pregudice during 3.0 in end game raiding is a moron or didn't play Marauders in end game raiding and is working purely from heresay.

 

Far as the dcds, yeah, marauders have some very decent dcds, no doubt about it. Problem is, as good as they are, they do not get you through an entire boss fight. Force camo while very useful is a terrible dcd for two reasons. Firstly, a lot of the time you can't use it as a dcd because it's your threat drop. if your on a raid team, your raid leader will tell you to use it as a threat drop at certain specific times - , secondly what makes it a **** dcd even if you didn't have to save it for threat drop is the fact that you can't attack if you want to get the defensive benefit from it. What's a marauder supposed to do, just stand next to the boss doing nothing while the dcd effects are in play? It lasts four seconds and if you attack anything it ends the effect prematurely. Ohh wow, that's great. Let me not dps for the enire four seconds, or as its your damn job to dps stuff, let me end it prematurely, how useful. It's good for enviormental damage, lava, fire, etc, but in a fight, if your even allowed to use it as a defensive, you're not doing your job if you just stand there and don't attack for four seconds, additionally, other times you are saving it to use a cleanse making it again, not a dcd in all practical terms in such instances [timing obviously being an issue, sometimes you can do both thru the course of a fight]. Yea, I get the whole 'you can't dps if you're dead thing', but if you are not going to be attacking anyway, wouldn't it just be smarter to back away for four seconds because using it a dcd while standing next to the boss who is very likely going to be doing damage to you anyways, you'd take more damage standing there for four seconds than you would if you backed out of harms way for four seconds.

 

Undying Rage, excellent dcd, for four to six seconds [only an idiot would waste a ultility point for an extra two seconds in most pve boss fights] so more likely four seconds. Excellent dcd, quite possibly the best dcd for four seconds. If you got to use it twice in a boss fight that's still just eight seconds out of an average boss fight time beween 6-8 minutes.

 

Cloak of Pain, an outstanding DCD pretty much under all circumstances. No doubt about it, this ones a keeper. It really only shines for fight damage however because only being attacked can enable its being refreshed, not just in coming damage.

 

Saberward is outstanding, love it love it love it, can even get a little heal on it at the cost of a utility point which for pve boss fights would be idiotic to take. Given its fairly long cd youll get to only use this twice probably, and hopefully this doesn't coincide with forced downtime rending it wasted. Extremely potent DCD, but Juggs get it to, making it a mote point.

 

Predation - While this can be used as a defensive, it is more often used as a raid wide utility and thus not one you'd just haphazardly use to save only yourself because there are points in some fights and even just some environmental avoidance instances where it can make a big difference. Also requires a utility point so you can use it on CD, a utility point well spent, but, you tend to use this more for the group as a whole, everyone gets the benefit of it if used as a defensive so it would help the jugg in the group as much as the mara. Even as a defensive, however, it is no gaurntee that it will help in the least. Its gives a defence chance increase, theres still a 90% chance you will get absolutely no defensive benefit out of it whatsoever.

 

 

That said, im glad I gave your post a second look over, cuz I think I originally took it more as an aggressive aurgument, on a second read, I think I got a better idea of your intent.

 

I generally tend to often pull agro even from some skilled tanks ["Agro whore" is the affection my raid group refers to me as hehe] so I sometimes get a taste of what tanks have to put up with. I can "off tank" for about 20 seconds before I start feeling the effects of the bosses overwhelming might, very soon after that point swiss cheese stands talk from the ground than I do. I'm almost fully 224 geared, and for the life of me I cannot begin to imagine how you total maniacs can whether the blows of a boss over the course of your average boss fight. Whenever the tank goes down, I know for certain said tank is about to cushion my fall in about five or ten seconds and introduce me to God.

 

The Mara dcds are good, but they are very much fleeting and because we always rip up in a bosses grill [not directly in front if at all possible obviously] but just being in such close proximity to the boss you are taking bucket loads of damage, while some of our dcds offer some mitigation [and we get some passive as well], the amount of damage marauders tend to take [and other melee dps im sure] is massive. While there is some measure of accomplishment pulling agroo off a skilled tank [and don't let any dps fool you, when we pull agroo we beam for a few seconds heh], we quickly learn that while grabbing agro has its charm, keeping agro for any length of time really really starts to suck. Our medium armor, and dcds simply cannot take that kind of punishment for very long, not from a boss. That is very easy to overlook and not even realize when you have good healers around, cuz if they're good, they can keep you standing for longer than you would otherwise would be able to. You take those healers away, and I do think you'd recognize that really, a juggs ability to withstand the kind of punishment a boss can dish out is superior to a maras overall, and rightly so. Remember as well, Juggs can be tanks, whos survivability I dont think anyone would doubt is greater than any mara of any spec in pve.

 

Having had the displeasure of fighting Juggs and Guardians in pvp [mostly open world pvp just being flagged always], while as a mara, they only need to kill you once, you need to kill them twice. Their h2f alone not only makes them harder to kill than a mara, it also affords them the added time to make greater use of many their cooldowns, it can buy them the time they need for some ability or other to come off CD for use again, that they would have already been dead at that time if they didn't have that second life. Sometimes you can burn thru it, specially carnage, but you couple a jugg with a healer comp vs a mara and a healer comp, it makes it like they have three lives to your one.

 

In some ways a mara's greater dps can work against them because in a boss fight a boss is more likely to get agrood by a mara than a non tank jugg, or if the tank goes down, chances are more likely that the mara will have the greater threat than a dps jugg. This is especially true during mobs. You have a marauder doing sweeping slash [with gore if carnage], hes agroing that entire mob. The more we get focused, the more we have to use our dcds to stay going, the more we burn thru them, they less we have to call apon the longer they have to stay up without mitigation.

 

No mara of any spec, has greater survivability tools than a Jugg tank. That a jugg has the option of switching to a tank role means that a Jugg has greater survivability options than a marauder does. You may not want to play that role, but you nonetheless have the option if you chose to take it. Juggs have that choice, Marauders do not. If we were talking specs, that would be one thing, but we're talking classes. Juggs have access to greater survivability choices than marauders do, is essentially my point. That said, that we do not have those same options in any spec, it is justified that we have a greater damage output limit than juggs in my opinion.

 

Your points on group utlility are spot on. There is no question that Marauders do offer a greater raid wide utility than Juggs and that is perhaps something that the devs should maybe take notice of and do something about in order to make juggs have greater competitiveness. I simply do not think that should come in the form that it would make a jugg have greater dps than a mara. I think it would be more in keeping with the mold if they could offer a raid wide utility in some defensive capacity that is of the same strength as bloodthirst, just defensively orientated. It should be as potent as bloodthirst in its capacity.

 

Regarding combat's capacity during 3.0 - 4.0, as I play carnage, it is the same spec as combat just impside. The specs problem was never it's damage capcity output [although it was a bit on the lower side there for a while compared to other dps spec but they have largely corrected that in 4.0 and I am happy with what its capable of now.

The problem with combat/carnage in 3.0 is that it was so cornholed by certain raid mecanics that forced maras away from bosses for sometimes more than fleeting amounts of time, that it simply stififled your capacity to do the damage you were more than capable of doing given the opportunity. That is one advantage that Anni/Watchman had, they could leave dots when they had to move away or were physically moved away, allowing them to do some damage even during downtimes. Combat, during such forced downtimes, was simply unable to to much damage, and depending where he was in his rotation, it could absolutely kill his most damaging abilities until the gore window came back around. Carnage/Combat, is completely unforgiving in its rotation, theres no picking up where you left off, its simply much to fast paced a spec for that, and that was at the heart of its issues during 3.0. That said, the greatest players have a way of making anything work, but they're the exception to the rule. That's what makes them great.

 

As far as your thoughts on the dps heiracy, I must tell you it seems abit self serving, I can't help but notice that your imagined heirarcy [ or perhaps better said your preferred one] puts two . of the lowest performing specs ahead of what are generally accepted specs as being high end dps. You want to equate vigilance and pyro in the same category as the number one spec and put Carnage and IO two ranks under them with concentraition which is one of the lowest dps specs in the game? If that is simply a personal preference of yours, thats fine heh we all want our favorites to be on top. No Jugg/Guard spec should do more dps than a pure dps class [and I don't just mean mara, I mean sniper too - And yes, that marksmenship is the worst on the dps chart is a crime. Did they need a nerf? Yeah, but not that bad. Pure dps classes should be the top dps dealers. Period. It's the only fair compensation for being unable to switch to another role. Again, if people want to enjoy doing some of the best dps in the game possible, than the pure dps classes are what they should choose. Otherwise why bother playing a sniper or a marauder at all if you could play another class that does as much dps as they can but can also switch to another role any time they want?

 

Wow, I just realized how long this has gotten, sorry. I'll end it here.

 

I'm not looking to flame anyone, if you disagree you certainly have that right, and if such is so, let us agree to disagree. After all, we are both Sith Warriors which makes us better than everyone else =p

[JouerTue]

i prefere the dps only-other roles discrimination other than the slow sustained-mid range etc. For me, the most important thing is that you should be able to do any PVE content with any class, the differences are not so exagerated now like it was in 2.x with sniper and mara stacking, or in 3.x with BH stacking.

 

edit: ^^this guy above me expressed my opinion 100% on the maro/jugg DCDs on a raid. when our tanks die(like a styrak HM), i am third on the table, but i camo in favour of our tactics VG, while he dies i do deeps, but out of the duration of GBTF and SW there's no game with a vigilance guardian..

Edited February 9, 2016 by JouerTue

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Never understood the hype behind dummy parsing. Parsing on a dummy is only good for practicing your rotation, getting out/recognizing mistakes and figuring out the priority on your abilities. Parsing for higher DPS is a waste of time and adrenals. If I do perfect rotation every time my dps will vary a lot and I have done nothing but wasted time. Practice for rotation not for DPS. Parsing higher doesn't make you a better player.

 

I have a guy in my raid team, who does around the same dps on a dummy but hes always behind me on bosses, where it actually matters. I am not talking about 100-200 dps behind cuz thats mostly rng, I am talking about around 1000 dps behind. In boss fights you will always make mistakes unlike the dummy parsing. You need to understand your class, all your abilities, how to keep a high uptime, boss mechanics and what ability to use when you mess up. That will help you more then chasing RNG to get extra 200 dps on a dummy.

 

Yes, Guardians/Juggernauts are weaker then some classes but they are viable in every ops if you know how to play them. Never had any problem meeting a dps check on my juggernaut. Maybe the problem is not the class but you.

 

I think it's important to recognize the difference between saying Juggs do not do quite as much damage as Marauders, and saying that juggs don't do good dps. There is nothing bad about Jugg dps [well except for rage, Maras suck at that spec too heh]. Juggs can do very good dps, some of the best. Your comment I think helps greatly in that regard. One could argue that juggs being heartier than maras they live longer and thus have the opportunity to do better dps than maras, cuz a dead mara does no dps at all!

 

Far as the dummy parsing, practicing on a dummy makes you better with your rotation, makes it flow better, because the more second nature it becomes the better you will preform your rotation and with less attention needed to it, making raid awareness better. I do believe that dummy parsing can increase your dps overall in live raids as well. It certainly seems to be so in my case at very least, which is why I stuck with it. I enjoy it actually. but, yes, no question you waste a ton on adrenals heh. IMO, there is always room for improvement and that comes from practice, both in live raids and from dummy parsing. At the end of the day tho, what the numbers are in the raid is what matters, that's all that matters for dps, and in that regard the RNG mistress will always have her due.

[xeqtoRDoom]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Than you're calling me an idiot. I'm the one that said it. I played a carnage marauder thruout the entirity of 3.0, maybe you did too, I don't know. That said, I don't imagine you would find to many people who played marauders in end game hm progression during 3.0 who'd disagree with that comment. Hell, even trying to get into SM Rav/ToS for a while there as a mara was spoty. Maybe you had a different experience on your server, but on the Shadowlands, it was not uncommon to get turned away from Rav/Tos for being a Mara. It was all about rDPS, mercs were everybodies love toy, and powertechs reigned supreme [ despite being mdps heh], a tank with their buffs went a long way [sonic rebound was not Underlurkers friend].

 

I am not gonna call you an idiot but you are wrong on so many points that .....

I've played Mara/PT/Jugg and few other classes in 3.0. Lets start by saying that PUGs are bad everywhere and they are not the actual representation on what class is good and what class is bad for a particular fight.

 

I will talk only about HMs since SMs where super easy that its not even worth a mention, only ppl who cant do left and right were the problem, not the class.

 

In 3.0 only operations that were relevant were Rav/ToS. PTs were heavily favored on Revan, Cora, Underlurker. Revan for Hydraulics, Cora/Underlurker for a lot of free damage from utilities.

 

Ranking melees is PT > Mara > Jugg > Operative.

 

I honestly don't know in what fight you could possibily be so heavily handicaped on mara that you couldn't do a minimum dps requirement.

 

For ToS:

Malaphar - really, is there any problem on that fight ?

Walkers - dps req was around 3.5k. In my 192s Mara I was doing around 3.9k. More then I could do on a Jugg in similar gear.

Underlurker - PTs were the kings = free damage from passives. Maras were really good since you have Predation to get rid of that abnoxious slow. Also have free damage from Cloak of Pain. And another gap closer in Force Camo.

Commanders - Carnage maras where one of the best for this fight.

Revan - BH's were the kings on core cuz of Hydraulics. Carnage Maras and Concelment Operatives where the best on the core after them. Easily can do a lot more then min DPS check. Juggs were the worst from mdps, but can still do more then enough dps on a core.

 

For Rav:

Sparky - brain dead easy

Bulo - medium fight, Juggs rule (Saber Reflect)

Torque - Juggs rule (Saber Reflect), PTs are good since they have more ranged then Mara but if you can dodge the fire Maras are pretty decent on dmg.

Blaster - Maras were the best on this fight. You can use undying rage and take all 20 stacks on the Master. Hydraulics are useless since mdps dont have to move. PTs have slightly more dmg then Mara at this point but its insignificant to utility Mara brings. Also Predation is nice on red phase (shouldn't be neccesery but nice)

Cora - PTs (Free dmg on utilites and extra range is nice) but only for Cora and Cora doesnt have a enrage.

Rugar - PTs > Mara> Jugg >Operative

 

Saying Mara was utter garbage in 3.0 is so wrong. Yes it was weaker then PT in terms of damage and utility on some fights but it was more then capable to clear everything and stronger then Jugg and Operative on most fights and even better then PT on Blaster.

 

Your rant about defesnives is even more wrong. Wont bother to quote everything. You are making it sound like you need to use defensives on CD when you are playing mdps. Thats just plain wrong. You should never be taking constant dmg if you do, your standing in ****. Pretty common for Mara players.

 

Force camo while very useful is a terrible dcd for two reasons. Firstly, a lot of the time you can't use it as a dcd because it's your threat drop. if your on a raid team, your raid leader will tell you to use it as a threat drop at certain specific times - , secondly what makes it a **** dcd even if you didn't have to save it for threat drop is the fact that you can't attack if you want to get the defensive benefit from it.

 

Ughh... what ?

Force Camo is awesome. Dps should use their threat drop 1 time, 2 times max. After that tanks should have 0 problems holding aggro and you can use FC as a defensive. Its extremely useful as closing out the distance if your leap is on CD and as a defensive when you will be hit for a big spike. Poping it and standing in **** and doing nothing is wrong. Self Cleanse is also nice bonus on it.

 

Undying Rage, excellent dcd, for four to six seconds [only an idiot would waste a ultility point for an extra two seconds in most pve boss fights] so more likely four seconds.

 

Better then Force Barrier on Blaster since you can dps while taking the beam. Need +2 sec utility tho.

 

Cloak of Pain, an outstanding DCD pretty much under all circumstances. No doubt about it, this ones a keeper. It really only shines for fight damage however because only being attacked can enable its being refreshed, not just in coming damage.

 

Best defensive, free damage, free rage generation, free mitigation and low cool down. Better then every jugg defensive except Saber Reflect. But you cant use Saber reflect on every fight and you can use CoP.

 

 

Not to mention passive 30% AoE Damage reduction they have over Juggs. That + Cloak of Pain make a lot of difference on figths where bosses have unclensable DoT on you. Jugg can just take all that damage.

 

Juggs only decent Defensive is Saber Reflect and thats situational. Saber Ward is alright but maras have it as well.

Endure Pain is almost useless so is Enraged Defense.

 

Could go on but this is has already gone long enough.

Edited February 9, 2016 by xeqtoRDoom

[GrandLordMenace]

Never understood the hype behind dummy parsing. Parsing on a dummy is only good for practicing your rotation, getting out/recognizing mistakes and figuring out the priority on your abilities. Parsing for higher DPS is a waste of time and adrenals. If I do perfect rotation every time my dps will vary a lot and I have done nothing but wasted time. Practice for rotation not for DPS. Parsing higher doesn't make you a better player.

 

I have a guy in my raid team, who does around the same dps on a dummy but hes always behind me on bosses, where it actually matters. I am not talking about 100-200 dps behind cuz thats mostly rng, I am talking about around 1000 dps behind. In boss fights you will always make mistakes unlike the dummy parsing. You need to understand your class, all your abilities, how to keep a high uptime, boss mechanics and what ability to use when you mess up. That will help you more then chasing RNG to get extra 200 dps on a dummy.

 

Yes, Guardians/Juggernauts are weaker then some classes but they are viable in every ops if you know how to play them. Never had any problem meeting a dps check on my juggernaut. Maybe the problem is not the class but you.

 

Pretty much this.

 

Dummy is for rotation, raiding is to learn the "killing intent" that separates the wheat from the chaff.

 

Also, as for the viability of sentinels, only like 6 juggs got revanchist compared to the multitude of marauders, there's literally no contest. Sentinels were the highest class on Core besides AP PT, there were sentinels capable of pulling 800k on core in 3.0 in carnage using rebuke and the various other tools at their disposal.

 

Also, any issue that a sentinel has with uptime is compounded for a juggernaut. Combat can reshift the rotation so that blade dance can be used later on, Vigilance has no such flexibility, any delay of the Master Strike ICD is indisputably rotation breaking.

Edited February 9, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I don't know why the text took that weird format, I tried to fix it. but everytime I updated it is stilk kept to the same form. My apologies ahead of time for the text format annoyance.

 

 

 

Under the guise of disagreeing with some of my statements you

have in fact apparently agreed with many of them, and thus I

cannot imagine under what conditions you read my post. Your

quotes in <<>> brackets

 

<<I've played Mara/PT/Jugg and few other classes in 3.0. Lets

start by saying that PUGs are bad everywhere and they are not

he actual representation on what class is good and what class

is bad for a particular fight. >>

 

I never once commented on pugs nor made any mention about any

class or type of player being representative of the class.

 

<I will talk only about HMs since SMs where super easy that its

not even worth a mention, only ppl who cant do left and right

were the problem, not the class.>

 

This statement seemingly is in direct opposition to your

previous quote, with respect to "bads". SM does not mean easy,

it means it can be easy if people are competent with their

class. Furthermore, I did not realize that the Underlurker fight

comprised the entirety of SM Operations.

 

<Ranking melees is PT > Mara > Jugg > Operative.>

 

That is incorrect. Ranking the aforementioned classes is now -

 

Mara > Operative > PT > Juggernaut

 

Annihilation Mara is Ranked 1 of 18, Carnage Mara is 4 of 18

Lethality Operaive comes in at 7 of 18

Pyrotech Powertech is Ranked 9 of 18

Vengeance Juggernaut is Ranked 10 of 18

 

<I honestly don't know in what fight you could possibily be so

heavily handicaped on mara that you couldn't do a minimum dps

requirement.>

 

I'm not sure of the relevance of this statement as nothing in my

post could have even been confused as to say a Marauder is

unable to meet any minimum dps requirement, such a statement

would be absurd.

 

<Saying Mara was utter garbage in 3.0 is so wrong. Yes it was

weaker then PT in terms of damage and utility on some fights but

it was more then capable to clear everything and stronger then

Jugg and Operative on most fights and even better then PT on

Blaster.>

 

Again, such a statement would be absurd, for no where in my post

did I refer to Marauders being garbage. There is no greater

lover of the class than myself. I've been playing the class for

four years and has and always will be my main. Stating that the

class is weaker in terms of damage to a PT(AP)during 3.0 and

into early 4.0 before the grand nerf seems to be something of a

redundant statement as that could be said for virtually every

class during that period with some few exceptions.

 

<Your rant about defesnives is even more wrong. Wont bother to

quote everything. You are making it sound like you need to use

defensives on CD when you are playing mdps. Thats just plain

wrong. You should never be taking constant dmg if you do, your

tanding in ****. Pretty common for Mara players.>

 

Once again you contend something to which I never stated. At no

point did I state Marauders need to be using their defensives on

CD. The only thing that I stated, which perhaps you confused

the meaning of was that Marauders lack sufficient dcds to make

them "almost a tank class", which they are most certainly not.

Because their dcds cannot be used with enough frequency [due to

CDs]to cover them through out a boss fight, the mitigation that

can be found is wholely insufficient to compare them with a Jugg

Tank's greater durability and survival ability. While they might

be able to fill in in a pinch, that would be only viable for a

rather short span of time. Marauders dcds and their medium armor

simply cannot withstand the overwhelming might of most bosses

for any substantial amount of time.

 

<Ughh... what ?

Force Camo is awesome. Dps should use their threat drop 1 time,

2 times max. After that tanks should have 0 problems holding

aggro and you can use FC as a defensive. Its extremely useful as

closing out the distance if your leap is on CD and as a

defensive when you will be hit for a big spike. Poping it and

standing in **** and doing nothing is wrong. Self Cleanse is

also nice bonus on it. >

 

Perhaps you might like to reread my statements made on force

camo again because you seem to be in agreement with me on many

aspects. Where we do disagree however is in the statement that

it is an awesome dcd, which it is not. Because it has many uses,

some of which are not dcd related, there are times when it must

or may need to be used for one of its other aspects. Predation

is superior for use for speed. Your statement that poping it

while standing in stupid and doing nothing being wrong is

precisely what I said originally. Furthermore, it is a terrible

threat drop. It does not in truth drop threat at all. In most

instances, using it to lose agro from a boss will fail outright

and the boss will continue to focus you until someone else

provides greater threat. It has not actually been a threat drop

for quite some time now. Even the tool tip states, it drops half

the current threat, which becomes null and void if you plan on

still attacking him which, as a mara is your point of being

there for the most part. Simply stated, Force Camo is NOT a

threat drop. This was discussed on the forums in the following

thread - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=852595

 

It is useless as a dcd unless it is your intention not to attack

at all during its duration. It does afford protection from

environment damage however. el la stupid, lava, etc. It will not

function as a dcd if you are fighting [attacking].

 

<Better then Force Barrier on Blaster since you can dps while

taking the beam. Need +2 sec utility tho. >

 

This statement seems to allude to your agreement with me

regarding Force Camos viability as as a dcd while fighting.

While the +2 sec utility tho is perhaps worthwhile to take for

pvp, it would be a wasteful use of a utility point for PVE

 

Operations.

 

<Best defensive, free damage, free rage generation, free

mitigation and low cool down. Better then every jugg defensive

except Saber Reflect. But you cant use Saber reflect on every

fight and you can use CoP.>

 

Here it is obvious we are in total agreement.

 

<Not to mention passive 30% AoE Damage reduction they have over

Juggs. That + Cloak of Pain make a lot of difference on fights

where bosses have unclensable DoT on you. Jugg can just take all

that damage.>

 

Once again we are clearly in agreement.

 

<<Juggs only decent Defensive is Saber Reflect and thats situational. Saber Ward is alright but maras have it as well. Endure Pain is almost useless so is Enraged Defense.>>

 

I did state that Saber ward is shared by both ACs. I'm not sure, however I would agree with the uselessness of Endure Pain and Enraged Defence, but I am willing to defer to you on that because my expertise is with Marauders, and you in all likelihood have more experience than myself with Juggernauts. That said, I would venture to say that Endure Pain is almost useless so is Enraged Defense find great usage in pvp, i can tell you that my experience in fighting Juggs in WZ's and more specifically in fighting flagged Guardians/ Dueling Juggs [i'm always flagged]those abilities are extremely advantageous, if effect you have to kill them twice and they only have to kill you once. [Timing aside]. Even pve, the added time that those abilities can grant could make a very real difference. Whether granting you some extra time for used abilities to come off CD, or to give the healers a bit more time to bring you back from the brink of death with that extra time, I'd hardly call that useless. If you disagree with those points nonetheless, I would defer to your greater experience as a Jugg. To say that I have not mastered the Marauder class would be unfair, my points are based on my considerable time spent on mastering the class to the best of my abilities. Once again, let us agree to disagree on those points which we actual do disagree.

 

Thanks for your response. Takes all kinds.

Edited February 9, 2016 by WayOfTheWarriorx
Weird text format

[GrandLordMenace]

I don't know why the text took that weird format, I tried to fix it. but it always kept on appearing that way when I tried to edit it, my apologies beforehand for the annoyance in format.

 

 

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

--------------

 

Under the guise of disagreeing with some of my statements you

 

have in fact apparently agreed with many of them, and thus I

 

cannot imagine under what conditions you read my post. Your

 

quotes will be in bold -

 

<<I've played Mara/PT/Jugg and few other classes in 3.0. Lets

 

start by saying that PUGs are bad everywhere and they are not

 

the actual representation on what class is good and what class

 

is bad for a particular fight. >>

 

I never once commented on pugs nor made any mention about any

 

class or type of player being representative of the class.

 

<I will talk only about HMs since SMs where super easy that its

 

not even worth a mention, only ppl who cant do left and right

 

were the problem, not the class.>

 

This statement seemingly is in direct opposition to your

 

previous quote, with respect to "bads". SM does not mean easy,

 

it means it can be easy if people are competent with their

 

class. Furthermore, I did not realize that the Underlurker fight

 

comprised the entirety of SM Operations.

 

<Ranking melees is PT > Mara > Jugg > Operative.>

 

That is incorrect. Ranking the aforementioned classes is now -

 

Mara > Operative > PT > Juggernaut

 

Annihilation Mara is Ranked 1 of 18, Carnage Mara is 4 of 18

Lethality Operaive comes in at 7 of 18

Pyrotech Powertech is Ranked 9 of 18

Vengeance Juggernaut is Ranked 10 of 18

 

<I honestly don't know in what fight you could possibily be so

 

heavily handicaped on mara that you couldn't do a minimum dps

 

requirement.>

 

I'm not sure of the relevance of this statement as nothing in my

 

post could have even been confused as to say a Marauder is

 

unable to meet any minimum dps requirement, such a statement

 

would be absurd.

 

<Saying Mara was utter garbage in 3.0 is so wrong. Yes it was

 

weaker then PT in terms of damage and utility on some fights but

 

it was more then capable to clear everything and stronger then

 

Jugg and Operative on most fights and even better then PT on

 

Blaster.>

 

Again, such a statement would be absurd, for no where in my post

 

did I refer to Marauders being garbage. There is no greater

 

lover of the class than myself. I've been playing the class for

 

four years and has and always will be my main. Stating that the

 

class is weaker in terms of damage to a PT(AP)during 3.0 and

 

into early 4.0 before the grand nerf seems to be something of a

 

redundant statement as that could be said for virtually every

 

class during that period with few exceptions.

 

<Your rant about defesnives is even more wrong. Wont bother to

 

quote everything. You are making it sound like you need to use

 

defensives on CD when you are playing mdps. Thats just plain

 

wrong. You should never be taking constant dmg if you do, your

 

standing in ****. Pretty common for Mara players.>

 

Once again you contend something to which I never stated. At no

 

point did I state Marauders need to be using their defensives on

 

CD. The only thing that I stated, which perhaps you confused

 

the meaning of was that Marauders lack sufficient dcds to make

 

them "almost a tank class", which they are most certainly not.

 

Because their dcds cannot be used with enough frequency [due to

 

CDs]to cover them through out a boss fight, the mitigation that

 

can be found is wholely insufficient to compare them with a Jugg

 

Tank's greater durability and survival ability. While they might

 

be able to fill in in a pinch, that would be only viable for a

 

rather short span of time. Marauders dcds and their medium armor

 

simply cannot withstand the overwhelming might of most bosses

 

for any substantial amount of time.

 

<Ughh... what ?

Force Camo is awesome. Dps should use their threat drop 1 time,

 

2 times max. After that tanks should have 0 problems holding

 

aggro and you can use FC as a defensive. Its extremely useful as

 

closing out the distance if your leap is on CD and as a

 

defensive when you will be hit for a big spike. Poping it and

 

standing in **** and doing nothing is wrong. Self Cleanse is

 

also nice bonus on it. >

 

Perhaps you might like to reread my statements made on force

 

camo because you seem to be in agreement with me on many

 

aspects. Where we do disagree however is in the statement that

 

it is an awesome dcd, which it is not. Because it has many uses,

 

some of which are not dcd related, there are times when it must

 

or may need to be used for one of its other aspects. Predation

 

is superior for use for speed. Your statement that poping it

 

while standing in stupid and doing nothing being wrong is

 

precisely what I said originally. Furthermore, it is a terrible

 

threat drop. It does not in truth drop threat at all. In most

 

instances, using it to lose agro from a boss will fail outright

 

and the boss will continue to focus you until someone else

 

provides greater threat. It has not actually been a threat drop

 

for quite some time now. Even the tool tip states, it drops half

 

the current threat, which becomes null and void if you plan on

 

still attacking him which, as a mara is your point of being

 

there for the most part. Simply stated, Force Camo is NOT a

 

threat drop. This was discussed on the forums in the following

 

thread - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=852595

 

It is useless as a dcd unless it is your intention not to attack

 

at all during its duration. It does afford protection from

 

environment damage however. el la stupid, lava, etc. It will not

 

function as a dcd if you are fighting [attacking].

 

<Better then Force Barrier on Blaster since you can dps while

 

taking the beam. Need +2 sec utility tho. >

 

This statement seems to allude to your agreement with me

 

regarding Force Camos viability as as a dcd while fighting.

 

While the +2 sec utility tho is perhaps worthwhile to take for

 

pvp, it would be a wasteful use of a utility point for PVE

 

Operations.

 

<Best defensive, free damage, free rage generation, free

 

mitigation and low cool down. Better then every jugg defensive

 

except Saber Reflect. But you cant use Saber reflect on every

 

fight and you can use CoP.>

 

Here it is obvious we are in total agreement.

 

<Not to mention passive 30% AoE Damage reduction they have over

 

Juggs. That + Cloak of Pain make a lot of difference on figths

 

where bosses have unclensable DoT on you. Jugg can just take all

 

that damage.>

 

Once again we are clearly in agreement.

 

<<Juggs only decent Defensive is Saber Reflect and thats situational. Saber Ward is alright but maras have it as well.

Endure Pain is almost useless so is Enraged Defense.

>>

 

I did state that Saber ward is shared by both ACs. I'm not sure, however I would agree with the uselessness of Endure Pain and Enraged Defence, but I am willing to defer to you on that because my expertise is with Marauders, and you in all likelihood have more experience than myself with Juggernauts. That said, I would venture to say that Endure Pain is almost useless so is Enraged Defense find great usage in pvp, i can tell you that my experience in fighting Juggs in WZ's and more specifically in fighting flagged Guardians/ Dueling Juggs [i'm always flagged]those abilities are extremely advantageous, if effect you have to kill them twice and they only have to kill you once. [Timing aside]. Even pve, the added time that those abilities can grant could make a very real difference. Whether granting you some extra time for used abilities to come off CD, or to give the healers a bit more time to bring you back from the brink of death with that extra time, I'd hardly call that useless. If you disagree with those points nonetheless, I would defer to your greater experience as a Jugg. To say that I have not mastered the Marauder class would be unfair, my points are based on my considerable time spent on mastering the class to the best of my abilities. Once again, let us agree to disagree on those points which we actual do disagree.

 

Thanks for your response. Takes all kinds.

 

Endure Pain is used as a speedboost, not as a DCD. It's required to maintain good uptime.

 

Focused Defense is only useful as a raidwide DCD, most attacks in raids are burst type attacks, espcially if they contact DPS, and generally outdamage individual focused defense stacks. GBTF scales evenly across damage levels, which is why it's so good, Focused Defense does not scale whatsoever, and seems powerful in low damage situations, but is pathetic against any form of quick, hard hitting damage. Also, using PvP survivability for a PvE comparison is asinine, Guardians are built for PvP in terms of soloque, Mara's are built to be supported. Maras are infinitely superior to a jugg in survivability IF you have a competent pocket healer, as mitigation is the best form of cooldown from a healing perspective, whereas reactive healing cooldowns don't scale well at all, due to their nature, much like how Shadow Tanks in early 2.0 compared to other tank classes.

[bbare]

Marauders are supposed to do the most dummy dps. They are a melee dps-only class. To compensate for not being able to tank or heal, they are awarded 5% or so more dps over the average. If every class had the same dps, it would be trivial to play a dps-only class. You would be more suited taking a tank or heal class because you could cover both if needed So the whole concept of dps-only would be pointless.

 

Juggs are fine. They don't need a buff. Just because they are average, doesn't mean they aren't viable. The dps requirements aren't too tough to eliminate them from endgame raiding. It's just more preferred to use a marauder because they are supposed to specialize in damage. Juggs are ideally tanks that can viably, but not ideally dps

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Endure Pain is used as a speedboost, not as a DCD. It's required to maintain good uptime.

 

Focused Defense is only useful as a raidwide DCD, most attacks in raids are burst type attacks, espcially if they contact DPS, and generally outdamage individual focused defense stacks. GBTF scales evenly across damage levels, which is why it's so good, Focused Defense does not scale whatsoever, and seems powerful in low damage situations, but is pathetic against any form of quick, hard hitting damage. Also, using PvP survivability for a PvE comparison is asinine, Guardians are built for PvP in terms of soloque, Mara's are built to be supported. Maras are infinitely superior to a jugg in survivability IF you have a competent pocket healer, as mitigation is the best form of cooldown from a healing perspective, whereas reactive healing cooldowns don't scale well at all, due to their nature, much like how Shadow Tanks in early 2.0 compared to other tank classes.

 

 

Perhaps you took me out of context [in this medium that can easily happen], I did not mean to imply that because it may work well in pvp that it would work well in pve. I meant it as it is good in pvp stand alone. Fighting another player is a far cry from the kind of damage a boss could out and I'm sure a boss eats right through that without missing a step.

 

In my limited forays into warzones, I quickly learned the necessity of a pocket healer, when present a marauder can do very well and it very fun when that dynamic is present, when it is not, seems like ya spend more time respawning and making your way back to the action than the amount of time you once you reach the action again. I would imagine in many instances it would be a greater boon to have a jugg on your team than a Mara. The slight damage increase they may possess I doubt would outweight the jugs abiltity to persist in the fight. Skank Tanks are feared for a reason. They're a good combination of the best of both worlds it seems.

[GrandLordMenace]

Marauders are supposed to do the most dummy dps. They are a melee dps-only class. To compensate for not being able to tank or heal, they are awarded 5% or so more dps over the average. If every class had the same dps, it would be trivial to play a dps-only class. You would be more suited taking a tank or heal class because you could cover both if needed So the whole concept of dps-only would be pointless.

 

Juggs are fine. They don't need a buff. Just because they are average, doesn't mean they aren't viable. The dps requirements aren't too tough to eliminate them from endgame raiding. It's just more preferred to use a marauder because they are supposed to specialize in damage. Juggs are ideally tanks that can viably, but not ideally dps

 

Ahh, the new people challenge the old farts. Let's see if I can refute these statements.

 

FIRST of all, Marauders are NOT supposed to outdps other classes because they are pure dps. Bioware refuted this during 2.0 with the Top 3 Questions for Juggernauts, though it seems that post was deleted/moved when they merged the AC forums. The statement of Mara's deserving to do more damage was a relic of the 1.0 era balancing and still persists due to Marauders being the whiny entitled *****es of SWTOR.

 

Anyways, I don't think we need a buff, but Watchman is definitely overparsing by about 200-300 dps.

 

Also, the majority of players that are actually competent on multiple roles on the same class is highly limited. Remember that many players play only one or two specializations per class. the 1.0 era was characterized by tank classes that did no dps, and consequentially, vanguards, guardians, and shadows were all shoehorned into tanking.

Edited February 10, 2016 by GrandLordMenace

[wadecounty]

Ahh, the new people challenge the old farts. Let's see if I can refute these statements.

 

FIRST of all, Marauders are NOT supposed to outdps other classes because they are pure dps. Bioware refuted this during 2.0 with the Top 3 Questions for Juggernauts, though it seems that post was deleted/moved when they merged the AC forums. The statement of Mara's deserving to do more damage was a relic of the 1.0 era balancing and still persists due to Marauders being the whiny entitled *****es of SWTOR.

 

Anyways, I don't think we need a buff, but Watchman is definitely overparsing by about 200-300 dps.

 

Also, the majority of players that are actually competent on multiple roles on the same class is highly limited. Remember that many players play only one or two specializations per class. the 1.0 era was characterized by tank classes that did no dps, and consequentially, vanguards, guardians, and shadows were all shoehorned into tanking.

 

Vanguards were still pretty amazing DPS in the 1.0 era though maybe underrated due to everyone having a hard-on for armor debuff stacking (til it was nerfed) and Bloodthirst spam.

[GrandLordMenace]

Vanguards were still pretty amazing DPS in the 1.0 era though maybe underrated due to everyone having a hard-on for armor debuff stacking (til it was nerfed) and Bloodthirst spam.

 

Well also execute combat logging wasn't a thing.

[-Solace-]

Obvious troll post. You all fail.

[Anishor]

No. No no no no no.

 

Juggernauts are actually worse than Marauders at survivability (for PvE.)

 

Every single cooldown marauders have are active mitigation, and they have much better passive defenses (fun fact, with rebuke, DR wise, Marauders are ALMOST a tank class). Juggernaut cooldowns aren't all that great for a lot of scenarios, for example focused defense doesn't do nearly as well as camo, or GBTF. A passive 30% aoe dr alone puts Sentinels on top, coupled with Force Camo, Transcendance, INSPIRATION, all these things are infinitely superior to the group utility of a juggernaut, which is essentially, a 2000 damage mitigation bubble, and the dps does not warrant the additional damage they take, except in certain fights where saber reflect is highly effective, which are Torque, EC tanks, and Kephess.

 

Marauders were NOT the red headed stepchild of 3.0, anyone proclaiming this is an idiot. WATCHMAN was butchered, and concentration borderline useless, but Combat was very usable, and has not changed a tiny bit in 4.0 outside of being nerfed and still very viable.

 

Also, there are a multitude of deficiencies inherent to Vigilance Guardians. They rely PRIMARILY on a channel on a melee class to do their single target damage, the only other class that shares this deficiency is Pyro PT. This is huge, as it means that they are essentially the sawed off shotgun of melee dps, and therefore should be doing more damage. (though I am personally of the opinion that nerfs > buffs). It will inherently be neutered on bosses relative to stationary dummy targets, an issue that a lot of specs, including watchman, where blade dance is only a filler move, and not something procced by the rotation, or required for the execution of said rotation.

 

Also, don't take the OP's comment at face value, because I wholeheartedly disagree. The hierarchy should go, roughly:

 

Sustained Low Mobility Melee: Watchman, Vigilance, Pyro

 

Sustained Mid range Melee: Lethality

 

Burst Melee/Ranged Sustained: Combat, Concentration, IO, (Rage/Fury should go here)

 

Mid Ranged Burst: AP (if they toned down the cheese)

 

Ranged Burst: Gunnery, etc.

 

Then adjust via AOE, and keep the tanks and healers where they are.

 

 

What about us poor rage Juggs? /batseyelashes

[Noyjitat]

So apparently a Guardian/Jugg can only pull 6.7k highest on a dummy but a mara can pull 7.4k? How come there is a 700 dps difference? How do we do Nightmare if we can't pull the numbers on lower dps classes like sorcs and guardians?

 

Can't we just balance out every single class and make each one do the same damage? 7k each?

 

I like my jugg and while I do agree we don't do enough damage, I still think a marauder doesn't do nearly enough damage considering they are built to do full assault and have little damage mitigation or controls.

 

Then there's the univeral mmo balance where melee damage classes do almost the same as a ranged damage class which never has made sense to me... Why should a class that is never prone to close aoe and close melee attacks (sorc/bh) do as much damage if not more than a melee class?

 

I'd like to see future mmos make hybrid melee/ranged for all classes instead of one or the other for tanks/dps.

[cool-dude]

I like my jugg and while I do agree we don't do enough damage, I still think a marauder doesn't do nearly enough damage considering they are built to do full assault and have little damage mitigation or controls.

 

Then there's the univeral mmo balance where melee damage classes do almost the same as a ranged damage class which never has made sense to me... Why should a class that is never prone to close aoe and close melee attacks (sorc/bh) do as much damage if not more than a melee class?

 

I'd like to see future mmos make hybrid melee/ranged for all classes instead of one or the other for tanks/dps.

 

They are also shutdown a hell of alot easier in pvp compared to juggs.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

They are also shutdown a hell of alot easier in pvp compared to juggs.

 

Carnage can be easily shut down in many instances by those who know what to look for at certain times.

 

Whereas Fury spec [ and to a lesser degree Annihilation] are not as easily shut down. Fury, in fact, is quite difficult to shut down as it has innate anti-cc capabilities when using certain attacks. While it doesn't have quite the burst of carnage, and is a far cry away from Anni's sustained capabilities, it has some excellent abilities that seem almost hand tailored for PVP.

Edited February 17, 2016 by WayOfTheWarriorx