Suggestion for Operations - A New Paradigm

[JMCA]

So I have gained a pretty infamous reputation for what is largely misconstrued as my opposition to Raiding and Operations in SWTOR.

 

Although I will admit that I really don't like elite raiding and have personal experience in that area of MMOs, I am not ignorant enough to suggest that Group PvE has no place in SWTOR.

 

As such I want to suggest a new paradigm for Operations in SWTOR that is inspired directly by FFXIV's methods of handling Story driven group content in a way that is not only spectacular to witness, but, most importantly, a hell of a lot easier to make.

 

Intro to FFXIV Primals

The inspiration for this idea comes from Final Fantasy 14, a competitor who have 8 man content called Primals. These are single boss fights with mechanics that take a group effort to take down and can take anywhere from an entire night or a couple of hours to clear. Maybe a week if the group isn't very good at the game.

 

If you look at that by itself it sounds incredibly unimpressive. One boss? Really? How the hell is that worth my time?

 

Well here's the part that makes these encounters a genius idea by FFXIV and anyone else who adopts this approach - it's not about the size of the content, but the QUALITY.

 

When you do a Primal fight, it starts with a cutscene introducing the Primal with spectacular music going on, your group gathering up, getting ready, and then you fight the thing. As the fight progresses you'll reach a certain phase where the music goes into overdrive, along with the mechanics.

 

The combination of musical and gameplay transition is one of the main draws for Final Fantasy 14. When you fight a Primal, it's pretty much unforgettable in MMOs. Anyone who's played FFXIV knows exactly what I"m talking about. Titan, for example, has a metal musical piece in the last phase with chanting that makes you feel like you're at a Metallica concert, while this big giant rock dude is thisclose to knock your teammates off a stone pillar hundreds of feet high into lava. A link showing what this fight is like:

 

 

The point is despite the lack of QUANTITY of the content, the atmosphere and presentation of the fight makes it well worth anyone's time.

 

On top of it, Primals are a very big part of the ongoing story in FFXIV. They are the adversaries that the protagonists of the game are trying to stop from being summoned to such an extent that they destroy the planet the game takes place on. There's also a lot of mystery to their origins, the process of creating them, etc.

 

As you can see they are valuable not only in the story, but give a group of people something fun to do. Since it's only one boss, I'd imagine it's a HELL of a lot easier to make than something like Dread Fortress or Dread Palace too.

 

This is the inspiration for the idea I"m about to unveil.

 

SWTOR Version of Primals

 

So how does this work into KotFE and the new Story Driven Direction SWTOR is Taking?

 

Like a glove. Seamlessly.

 

The story now with the struggle against the Eternal Empire pits our Alliance against them and whoever and whatever else oppose us along the way.

 

Story wise as the Outlander we have a military industrial complex at our command and elite operatives to bring with us, so 8 man content has a premise in KotFE.

 

What I'm suggesting is that whenever a big moment happens in the storyline moving forward that requires the use of our Alliance as well as our own talents, that instead of a sprawling giant Operation like those in the past, those be replaced by SWTOR specific "Primal Fights" that can be handled just like Revan.

 

Now that the Alliance under our command, we have the perfect choice for anyone to make - take this adversary down with our Companions, or with some "elite operatives in our faction."

 

The model for making the content is simple - single area, like a combat arena, battlefield with debris around us, the Eternal Throne room, etc. Somewhere big enough to fight in, but small enough to not be a big explorable zone.

 

The fights should test both melee and ranged DPS so that they have to move at times. No cheese strats. This should encourage groups to be composed in a balanced way, with the ideal group being 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 2 Melee, 2 Ranged DPS, but not make it impossible to run full melee or full ranged.

 

The key, however, is making the fight relevant to the story, which the talented writers at BW will have no problem doing, and the final piece that is of critical importance.

 

The atmosphere.

 

The music has to make you feel like you did watching the Darth Maul vs. Qui Gonn and Obi Wan fight, Anakin vs. Obi Wan on Mustafar, and the Dark Council Chamber with Baras and Thanaton. The players need to FEEL the significance of the moment, and music does that incredibly well.

 

The adversary has to be spectacular in their fighting and delivery too. If we're fighting SCORPIO, for example, she needs to taunt us and make us feel inferior. If we're fighting Vaylin, she needs to be terrifying with the Force and maniacal as she throws us or debris around.

 

The animations need to be clear enough to avoid damage, but spectacular enough to distract us on that first couple runs going "Whoa that was SICK!"

 

Basically, all that work in building a huge zone should be redirected into making these "SWTOR Primal Fights" something people can't wait to play and will want to repeat over and over because of how intense they are, despite it only being one boss.

 

Why This is Better Than the Old Paradigm of Operations

 

The problem that the old way of Operations content had was making them too big. That makes the content take too long to make, increases the QA work substantially, and sets expectations from the community much higher because they are waiting for it of course.

 

The longer the wait, the more upset they'll be with any mistakes.

 

With this concept of one spectacular boss, the ability to make these encounters at quality can happen at a faster pace and because it shouldn't take multiple nights or even weeks to clear the damn thing if it's brand new unless it's a Hard Mode, more accessible to more players.

 

The point is you can give Operations players a new itch to scratch at a faster pace, while also attracting Story players who enjoyed that fight alone and might be interested in trying it out with other people.

 

Make the encounter as story meaningful and intense enough, and this would dramatically increase participation in 8 man content overall without having to work like slaves to get the content out far too late for many raiders' tastes.

 

As for how traditional raiders would receive it - it doesn't really matter. There aren't enough of them to matter. Hardcore raiding with several bosses and this big zone to plow through trash on the way to the next boss... that's what World of Warcraft does.

 

On top of this, when you have one boss fight, you can make multiple tiers of difficulty more efficiently than a large sprawling boondoggle. Who's to say that there can't be a Solo Mode, Story Mode, Hard Mode, and Nightmare mode for a single boss?

 

If it's signficantly easier to make one boss why couldn't there be something for elite raiders to shoot for?

 

After all, in FFXIV, A3 and A4 savage took hundreds of wipes for the world firsts to take down, due to a gear wall, and a frankly insane amount of coordination it takes. I'm talking about tank swaps with positionial moving requirements amid a cluster**** of pixels and random pairs needing to move toward or away from each other in the process.

 

The point being that one boss can be so hard to take down that it takes a month at least for 8 of the best players in your entire playerbase if you really want it to be.

 

That's more variety, more replayability, and it pleases nearly every part of your playerbase from solo only to casual raiders, to hardcore E-Peen chest thumpers.

 

SWTOR needs something that fits SWTOR, and I contend that "SWTOR Primals" would do that much better than the old paradigm of Operations.

 

Challenges to Meet

 

The biggest challenge, from what I can tell, is the music on SWTOR's end.

 

There is a lot of original music in SWTOR, but for these "SWTOR Primals" to work, the ideal is that each fight would have their own theme, and be uniquely memorable because of it.

 

As such it would require either contracting out someone who could make those every couple of months, or hire a musician full time at BW Austin specifically to make music for the game.

 

FFXIV's music guy - Masayoshi Soken - has made a pretty impressive name for himself after some pretty mind blowing tracks he's put together. A link to his latest Primal Fight music that should give you an idea of the potential of this kind of approach:

 

 

I think it's very much in BW"s interests to find someone with similar talent to create some awesome SWTOR music here.

 

Of course, there's probably limitations on that, given Disney and how much you'd have to make music according to the style John Williams has made immortal over almost 40 years. I don't know the legal or corporate limitations to that, but if it's possible to have a SWTOR Music Guy I would consider that a really good investment.

 

I trust the gameplay designers at BW, as well as their artists, and the writers to make the fight feel and play like an epic duel that matters to the storyline.

 

I am not sure about how the music would be for that, and no, I don't think recycling music is a good idea here.

 

These would need to feel unique to grab people's attention and keep it. It shouldn't feel like anything else you've done in the game. It needs to feel like The Vaylin Fight or The Arcann Fight, or whatever the encounters would end up being.

 

Conclusion

 

I think that Operations as a gameplay area of SWTOR need a big overhaul and spectacular One Boss Fights that matter to the story, have unique music that pumps you up, and gives you and your Alliance, or you and your friends a way to advance through this awesome new storyline in STYLE is the right way to go about it.

 

Operations need style, not this dated idea of a larger number of bosses in a cool area to explore.

 

This is Star Wars.

 

The perfect IP for epic duels and spectacular smaller scale action sequences with emotional significance.

 

Let's make Operations feel like those iconic scenes in the movies, not a broke version of World of Warcraft.

 

Love this game, and would definitely be down for "SWTOR Primals."

Edited January 29, 2016 by JMCA

[Holocron]

I feel dirty not, but ....

 

/signed

[BrianDavion]

so your grand solution to raiding is to replace raids with multiple toborro's courtyards?

[JMCA]

Just spitballing here, but here's some imagination at work:

 

SCORPIO Fight.

 

Let's say that at some point, as people are expecting, SCORPIO betrays us to get what she wants. The Eternal Fleet was always her endgame and her "heuristic designation of self-improvement" was to make her capable of ensuring that nothing can stop the Eternal Fleet under her control. She tells you, Arcann, and whoever else is at the Eternal Throne room that organics will know what it means to serve. She says for millennia, organics have demanded service from their betters. Now it's their turn.

 

That's a raid boss right there. That's a story moment and outcome that would geniunely scare the **** out of a lot of people.

 

The fight itself could take place in the Eternal Throne room, and the possibility of a galaxy ruled by SCORPIO is at stake. Yeah we've been to the Eternal Throne before.

 

Not like this though.

 

The music could be this robotic, sinister, urgent piece that makes you feel like a desperate meatbag trying to stop a future where all boys and girls will ever be are slaves to machines that use them as fuel whenever they're not useful enough to keep alive anymore.

 

Maybe some really grindy, scratching parts that sound like a horror movie.

 

Make the mechanics she fights with push you and the group back at intervals and if people aren't positioned right they fall off that catwalk between the throne and elevator. Summons adds that you have to fight through in sequence as DPS checks. If you try to skip any, they explode and do AoE damage that will wipe the group.

 

Make it feel like SCORPIO is a step ahead the whole time.

 

That would be EPIC.

 

Just sayin

[Ghisallo]

You greatly exaggerate the difficulty of the Primals with the possible exception of Bahamut pre-3.0 but that said...

 

Issues with the idea... being practical not saying in theory bad.

 

1. The engine they have here has issues with the particle effects they already have. One of the things FFXIV ARR changed was they reduced the detail of the graphics BUT made them more stylized so it was still pretty because 1.0 was so crazy that a flower pot (not an exaggeration) had as many polygons and as much shader code as a player character.

 

2. Their combat/PvE team as part of their plan has been laid off and/or transferred to ME:A. There is no one left to make it.

 

So we have an issue where they would need a complete graphics and/or engine overhaul and steal back the devs who could make the content. As this expac was made on the cheap it is a wonderful dream, but a dream none the less.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Ghisallo

[JMCA]

so your grand solution to raiding is to replace raids with multiple toborro's courtyards?

 

Imagine them as fights with the same emotional significance as Darth Thanaton / Darth Baras / JK Emperor Fight, but with TC mechanics and with the music transitioning in intensity as the fight progresses.

 

They have to be more intense than TC and the story and atmosphere would fuel that.

[Ghisallo]

so your grand solution to raiding is to replace raids with multiple toborro's courtyards?

 

They would be a good addition (not the whole show) and they are actually fun, unlike the courtyard...which I think was a symptom of BW still trying to understand MMORPG dynamics tbh. However, as I said, BW is simply incapable of replicating what SE did. SE could only do it because they rebuilt the game from the ground up...literally.

 

EA will not do that because they are not personally invested in the IP. Final Fantasy is the life's blood of SE (and they are a Japanese Company so saving face is all), Star Wars is "just" a licensed IP and from looking at the Q3 notes they were far more hyped about Battlefront and their mobile games than they were SWTOR. I would say over the next year or so we will see gimmicks for SWTOR. Maybe a financial model change, then a "this time we are all about playable content" etc. They will, in essence, swing for the bleachers each dev cycle and pray it works, because right now from all of BW's actions and statements I don't see a firm direction.

 

It's almost like they are trying to take a SP DLC model and meld it to a persistent MMORPG model. /shrug

Edited January 29, 2016 by Ghisallo

[BrianDavion]

Imagine them as fights with the same emotional significance as Darth Thanaton / Darth Baras / JK Emperor Fight, but with TC mechanics and with the music transitioning in intensity as the fight progresses.

 

They have to be more intense than TC and the story and atmosphere would fuel that.

 

it might the first time, but by the 50th time it'd be old hat. add to that people who just want to complete their story, would be frustrated. (how many people do you figure choose the "raid" option for shadow of revan BTW?) so end of the day you'd get another raid against a boss you're supposed to care about. I think it;d be better to remove raids from the story directly and instead have them be... side stories. so, it's a case of "meanwhile, while the outlander does this awesome stuff, a strike team of 8 elite individuals staged a daring attack on a priority target" LOTRO did something similer back in mirkwood.

[gabigool]

I think it;d be better to remove raids from the story directly and instead have them be... side stories. so, it's a case of "meanwhile, while the outlander does this awesome stuff, a strike team of 8 elite individuals staged a daring attack on a priority target" LOTRO did something similer back in mirkwood.

 

This.

 

Obviously the whole "We want operations to be part of the story" is them rationalizing why they have had one set of Ops releases in the last two years.

[Excise]

I think it;d be better to remove raids from the story directly and instead have them be... side stories. so, it's a case of "meanwhile, while the outlander does this awesome stuff, a strike team of 8 elite individuals staged a daring attack on a priority target" LOTRO did something similer back in mirkwood.

 

I think this is the right idea.

 

Shadow of Revan did it well. In Ravagers you learn about another pirate group, but aren't really missing out on anything important if you avoid it. ToS gives you an alternate method of destroying Revan's defenses. Non-raiders have the other option.

 

The Dread War did it terribly. The whole story was in Operations. If you weren't a raider, the story was limited to... what, Section X and 3/4th of Oricon?

[DomiSotto]

The one boss fights, Toborro and Colossal Monolith were never popular, because it takes a full group for 1 drop of gear.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

So I have gained a pretty infamous reputation for what is largely misconstrued as my opposition to Raiding and Operations in SWTOR.

 

Although I will admit that I really don't like elite raiding and have personal experience in that area of MMOs, I am not ignorant enough to suggest that Group PvE has no place in SWTOR.

 

As such I want to suggest a new paradigm for Operations in SWTOR that is inspired directly by FFXIV's methods of handling Story driven group content in a way that is not only spectacular to witness, but, most importantly, a hell of a lot easier to make.

 

Intro to FFXIV Primals

The inspiration for this idea comes from Final Fantasy 14, a competitor who have 8 man content called Primals. These are single boss fights with mechanics that take a group effort to take down and can take anywhere from an entire night or a couple of hours to clear. Maybe a week if the group isn't very good at the game.

 

If you look at that by itself it sounds incredibly unimpressive. One boss? Really? How the hell is that worth my time?

 

Well here's the part that makes these encounters a genius idea by FFXIV and anyone else who adopts this approach - it's not about the size of the content, but the QUALITY.

 

When you do a Primal fight, it starts with a cutscene introducing the Primal with spectacular music going on, your group gathering up, getting ready, and then you fight the thing. As the fight progresses you'll reach a certain phase where the music goes into overdrive, along with the mechanics.

 

The combination of musical and gameplay transition is one of the main draws for Final Fantasy 14. When you fight a Primal, it's pretty much unforgettable in MMOs. Anyone who's played FFXIV knows exactly what I"m talking about. Titan, for example, has a metal musical piece in the last phase with chanting that makes you feel like you're at a Metallica concert, while this big giant rock dude is thisclose to knock your teammates off a stone pillar hundreds of feet high into lava. A link showing what this fight is like:

 

 

The point is despite the lack of QUANTITY of the content, the atmosphere and presentation of the fight makes it well worth anyone's time.

 

On top of it, Primals are a very big part of the ongoing story in FFXIV. They are the adversaries that the protagonists of the game are trying to stop from being summoned to such an extent that they destroy the planet the game takes place on. There's also a lot of mystery to their origins, the process of creating them, etc.

 

As you can see they are valuable not only in the story, but give a group of people something fun to do. Since it's only one boss, I'd imagine it's a HELL of a lot easier to make than something like Dread Fortress or Dread Palace too.

 

This is the inspiration for the idea I"m about to unveil.

 

SWTOR Version of Primals

 

So how does this work into KotFE and the new Story Driven Direction SWTOR is Taking?

 

Like a glove. Seamlessly.

 

The story now with the struggle against the Eternal Empire pits our Alliance against them and whoever and whatever else oppose us along the way.

 

Story wise as the Outlander we have a military industrial complex at our command and elite operatives to bring with us, so 8 man content has a premise in KotFE.

 

What I'm suggesting is that whenever a big moment happens in the storyline moving forward that requires the use of our Alliance as well as our own talents, that instead of a sprawling giant Operation like those in the past, those be replaced by SWTOR specific "Primal Fights" that can be handled just like Revan.

 

Now that the Alliance under our command, we have the perfect choice for anyone to make - take this adversary down with our Companions, or with some "elite operatives in our faction."

 

The model for making the content is simple - single area, like a combat arena, battlefield with debris around us, the Eternal Throne room, etc. Somewhere big enough to fight in, but small enough to not be a big explorable zone.

 

The fights should test both melee and ranged DPS so that they have to move at times. No cheese strats. This should encourage groups to be composed in a balanced way, with the ideal group being 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 2 Melee, 2 Ranged DPS, but not make it impossible to run full melee or full ranged.

 

The key, however, is making the fight relevant to the story, which the talented writers at BW will have no problem doing, and the final piece that is of critical importance.

 

The atmosphere.

 

The music has to make you feel like you did watching the Darth Maul vs. Qui Gonn and Obi Wan fight, Anakin vs. Obi Wan on Mustafar, and the Dark Council Chamber with Baras and Thanaton. The players need to FEEL the significance of the moment, and music does that incredibly well.

 

The adversary has to be spectacular in their fighting and delivery too. If we're fighting SCORPIO, for example, she needs to taunt us and make us feel inferior. If we're fighting Vaylin, she needs to be terrifying with the Force and maniacal as she throws us or debris around.

 

The animations need to be clear enough to avoid damage, but spectacular enough to distract us on that first couple runs going "Whoa that was SICK!"

 

Basically, all that work in building a huge zone should be redirected into making these "SWTOR Primal Fights" something people can't wait to play and will want to repeat over and over because of how intense they are, despite it only being one boss.

 

Why This is Better Than the Old Paradigm of Operations

 

The problem that the old way of Operations content had was making them too big. That makes the content take too long to make, increases the QA work substantially, and sets expectations from the community much higher because they are waiting for it of course.

 

The longer the wait, the more upset they'll be with any mistakes.

 

With this concept of one spectacular boss, the ability to make these encounters at quality can happen at a faster pace and because it shouldn't take multiple nights or even weeks to clear the damn thing if it's brand new unless it's a Hard Mode, more accessible to more players.

 

The point is you can give Operations players a new itch to scratch at a faster pace, while also attracting Story players who enjoyed that fight alone and might be interested in trying it out with other people.

 

Make the encounter as story meaningful and intense enough, and this would dramatically increase participation in 8 man content overall without having to work like slaves to get the content out far too late for many raiders' tastes.

 

As for how traditional raiders would receive it - it doesn't really matter. There aren't enough of them to matter. Hardcore raiding with several bosses and this big zone to plow through trash on the way to the next boss... that's what World of Warcraft does.

 

On top of this, when you have one boss fight, you can make multiple tiers of difficulty more efficiently than a large sprawling boondoggle. Who's to say that there can't be a Solo Mode, Story Mode, Hard Mode, and Nightmare mode for a single boss?

 

If it's signficantly easier to make one boss why couldn't there be something for elite raiders to shoot for?

 

After all, in FFXIV, A3 and A4 savage took hundreds of wipes for the world firsts to take down, due to a gear wall, and a frankly insane amount of coordination it takes. I'm talking about tank swaps with positionial moving requirements amid a cluster**** of pixels and random pairs needing to move toward or away from each other in the process.

 

The point being that one boss can be so hard to take down that it takes a month at least for 8 of the best players in your entire playerbase if you really want it to be.

 

That's more variety, more replayability, and it pleases nearly every part of your playerbase from solo only to casual raiders, to hardcore E-Peen chest thumpers.

 

SWTOR needs something that fits SWTOR, and I contend that "SWTOR Primals" would do that much better than the old paradigm of Operations.

 

Challenges to Meet

 

The biggest challenge, from what I can tell, is the music on SWTOR's end.

 

There is a lot of original music in SWTOR, but for these "SWTOR Primals" to work, the ideal is that each fight would have their own theme, and be uniquely memorable because of it.

 

As such it would require either contracting out someone who could make those every couple of months, or hire a musician full time at BW Austin specifically to make music for the game.

 

FFXIV's music guy - Masayoshi Soken - has made a pretty impressive name for himself after some pretty mind blowing tracks he's put together. A link to his latest Primal Fight music that should give you an idea of the potential of this kind of approach:

 

 

I think it's very much in BW"s interests to find someone with similar talent to create some awesome SWTOR music here.

 

Of course, there's probably limitations on that, given Disney and how much you'd have to make music according to the style John Williams has made immortal over almost 40 years. I don't know the legal or corporate limitations to that, but if it's possible to have a SWTOR Music Guy I would consider that a really good investment.

 

I trust the gameplay designers at BW, as well as their artists, and the writers to make the fight feel and play like an epic duel that matters to the storyline.

 

I am not sure about how the music would be for that, and no, I don't think recycling music is a good idea here.

 

These would need to feel unique to grab people's attention and keep it. It shouldn't feel like anything else you've done in the game. It needs to feel like The Vaylin Fight or The Arcann Fight, or whatever the encounters would end up being.

 

Conclusion

 

I think that Operations as a gameplay area of SWTOR need a big overhaul and spectacular One Boss Fights that matter to the story, have unique music that pumps you up, and gives you and your Alliance, or you and your friends a way to advance through this awesome new storyline in STYLE is the right way to go about it.

 

Operations need style, not this dated idea of a larger number of bosses in a cool area to explore.

 

This is Star Wars.

 

The perfect IP for epic duels and spectacular smaller scale action sequences with emotional significance.

 

Let's make Operations feel like those iconic scenes in the movies, not a broke version of World of Warcraft.

 

Love this game, and would definitely be down for "SWTOR Primals."

 

If I understood you correctly, and it is your suggestion that all Operations be only one boss fight [simplifying here], if this was instituted, I'd literally quit the game over it.

 

This would kill the feeling of a raid in this game. Even if for no other reason than this is what people are used to. Additionaly, the prospect of a raid taking an entire night or worse yet, a week sounds absolutely horrifying.

 

Please don't mistake this as a personal attack or an insult, that is not the intent at all. This is something you have experienced in another mmo and so perhaps because of that familiarity you can see it in actual terms. It is simply my opinion that while that may work in another mmo, it wouldn't work here for hardcore raiders. And while some might consider that smaller percentage of the player base and thus "don't really matter", to the hardcore traditional raiders it would matter a great deal. Raiding is what hardcore raiders do, you take away the "raid" experience, its not even a raid anymore [TC and CM are exceptions, not the rule].

 

Would it make "new raids" come out with less time in between, yes, but what's the point if they aren't raids at all? [To a hardcore raiders perception]. This would not make things better for raiders, it would literally obliterate raiding in this game.

 

Yes the multi-boss raids that are intrinsic to SWTOR take longer to design and thus leave larger gaps in time inbetween raids being released between each other, but personally I'd rather have to wait longer to get a raid, than have more frequently released "raids" of the type you suggest. In the simplest of terms, it would not feel like a raid at all. Something like this would be fine if it was introduced in addition to normal raids, but in lue of, I tend to think would cause a mass exodus of hardcore raiders from the game.

 

I applaud your efforts and consideration for improving the state of end-game raiding, god knows it could use some love, but I do not think this would have that result in this game. Generally speaking, we live the raid design model as is, we simply want more frequently released new raids [and some fixes for the existing ones], high risk/high reward is the bread and butter of hardcore raiding and thus we crave new arenas and foes to test our metal against. One boss raids would get incredibly dull incredibly fast.

 

Than again, what the hell do I know? =p

[gabigool]

The one boss fights, Toborro and Colossal Monolith were never popular, because it takes a full group for 1 drop of gear.

 

actually they were never popular because they were.... one boss, in places that were a pain in the butt to get to, and pointless.

 

Any decent group could do HM TC. What was the point of doing it?

 

Extremely capable groups farmed HM CM for mainhands. But putting 204 MHs on that boss didnt make a lot of sense. Also having to wait for the WB was just.... stupid?

 

Ops are nice because there is a sense of progression, and with things like NM and timed runs they can sustain much, much longer periods of content droughts than story.

 

It's not about the gear. It's about having meaningful stuff to do.

[Pagy]

may i suggest that the op go back to final fantasy and stop trying to make swtor...final fantasy?

[rantboi]

The one boss fights, Toborro and Colossal Monolith were never popular, because it takes a full group for 1 drop of gear.

 

Monolith was very popular in the red eclipse before 4.0. there were several pug groups every day for both sm and hm

[DomiSotto]

From what I have seen, once it stop dropping MH Everyone Wanted, the CM went to the same shelf of unused content as the TC. Run them as an add-on to another raid maybe if folks are on the roll, but it's getting late. I understand that at a certain point trinkets give way to the glory, but the OP is talking about the overhaul of the design for everyone. Including the ones that need gear.

 

On the other hand, the Event 1 boss deals with extra perks are pretty popular. I think there is a place for one-boss raids, but I would like them to be super-special like the Gree and Rak bosses. I'd really love for example if the Bounty Hunting event got an Op with an interesting Underworld Boss fight.

 

I also think that while the OP says that the 1-boss runs will make it easier to run them logistically, well, I don't believe so, because I think that to put together a raiding group for the sake of a 5 minute fight makes for a very poor return on the time investment. I don't know about other people's experiences, but it takes a minimum of 15-20 minutes for the guild run to form up, alts switch, make sure everyone is ready and on, recruit extras if there is no multiple of 8....

 

I have a feeling that a group will go chain-pull 1 bosses stuff to make it worthwhile, and it will result in far less atmospheric experience and will be super disjointed to string them like that.

Edited January 29, 2016 by DomiSotto

[Excise]

TC (both HM and SM) has been popular with my guild. It's great to have that "well we have 30 minutes left tonight what do you guys wanna do?" option.

[Ghisallo]

This.

 

Obviously the whole "We want operations to be part of the story" is them rationalizing why they have had one set of Ops releases in the last two years.

 

It's actually the way most MMORPGs do it though. SE, SOE (now daybreak games) all made/make the raids integral to the story. SE does it with 8 man content that is actually required to advance the story. EQ2 does it by putting it at the tail end of the story so its not forced, but you don't actually see the "end" of the bad guy you've been chasing. I think they want (or at least wanted to) make a "real" MMO but made a game where they simply can't economically keep up with the speed of dev cycles and expected content.

 

I think the problem here starts with the engine. The more I look at the last 2 years we have only 1 of two possibility based on the amount of content we have seen.

 

1. EA crushed their budget to that of an indie game launched on Steam.

2. They have a Corporate sized budget BUT the engine has so many issues development is more expensive

 

I am leaning towards 2 not only because of all the performance issues but because they rebreak stuff they have fixed over and over again. I haven't seen servers crash as much as BW here either. Either they are incompetent (which I doubt) or they simply have more complications when it comes to coding. It makes sense, I mean they were basically making the engine while they were coding the game. Imagine trying to pour a foundation of a house, put up the framing, lay the dry wall, run pipes and wiring all at the same time to build a house.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Ghisallo

[dracmor]

So right in the beginning of your post:

These are single boss fights with mechanics that take a group effort to take down and can take anywhere from an entire night or a couple of hours to clear

A semi-good group of raiders can clear an op in sm in 45 minutes, a really good group can clear a HM op in an hour. So how is this different? I have also played FF and you get the same kind of issues facing a primal as you do in an op. Only in FF it is actually worse because FF is not afraid to one shot you if you miss a mechanic and the cross server queue makes it more likely for someone to rage quit or leave or get frustrated at someone new who may not know the mechanics. So based on your quote I am not entirely sure why this would be better than actually having a new op other than maybe dev cost.

 

However, I am not against the idea itself. I would certainly take this or maybe even an option - perhaps after you clear it in SM - to have zero adds in the ops so you can just go from boss fight to boss fight. After any number of runs adds are annoying, time consuming, serve no real purpose/challenge and are probably the part that players like the least. The real reason why people would favor fighting Primals is simply getting to boss fight after boss fight with no annoying adds in-between.

 

At this point, though, any op-like group content would be welcome. As always, just my two cents...

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I think this is the right idea.

 

Shadow of Revan did it well. In Ravagers you learn about another pirate group, but aren't really missing out on anything important if you avoid it. ToS gives you an alternate method of destroying Revan's defenses. Non-raiders have the other option.

 

The Dread War did it terribly. The whole story was in Operations. If you weren't a raider, the story was limited to... what, Section X and 3/4th of Oricon?

 

I liked it personally and respect the idea of gating people into operations as leading them into the world of more to do and thus have them paying longer.

 

They just needed a means of making easier operations still for casual players like star fortress type thing perhaps designed for 2 players + 2 companions with healing stations but in an operation form with multiple bosses etc.

Having a super easy form of operation and then a regular sm form and then hm would be a good method to do it as it ideally caters to everyone except those that don't even want to group with another person what so ever but then you can't please everyone.

[JMCA]

The problems you guys mention are easily dealt with if the atmosphere and story significance is strong enough.

 

Also, the reality operations people are going to have to accept is that you are not going to be the top priority in SWTOR ever again. BW should strongly consider shrinking the scope of operations in the future so that they continue to attract new players with the story and the other content in the game.

 

Expecting giant sprawling Operations from them is nonsensical at this point.

[branmakmuffin]

What's the tl;dr, "I am impressive because I used the word 'paradigm'?"

[MeNaCe-NZ]

What's the tl;dr, "I am impressive because I used the word 'paradigm'?"

 

^ /thread.

[JMCA]

What's the tl;dr, "I am impressive because I used the word 'paradigm'?"

 

Reading is hard.