Switch Advanced Classes

[TX_Angel]

The fact that we have had to oppose it for three years in the other thread and no amount of "negatives" are ever taken seriously? Forget the fact that in three years not one single, solitary member of the staff has even weighed in on that thread - which is never more than a page or two off the front page. No answer, in three years, is THE answer.

 

For those three years, there were reasonable arguments for not having AC change. The launch of 4.0 removed them.

 

Just as many people fought against the idea of "instant 60s", and yet here they are.

 

No answer, in three years, was the answer pre-4.0, but the game is headed in a new direction.

 

I will not be shocked to see 5.0 bring about the loss of importance of ACs when all classes end up with a tank option, a healing option, and a dps option. They did it to companions and I suspect that was a very popular change.

 

I think there is a decent chance we'll see that happen to our toons as well.

[Ratajack]

For those three years, there were reasonable arguments for not having AC change. The launch of 4.0 removed them.

 

The original design intent that NO character be able to fill all three roles AT ANY TIME, not just at the same time is still intact. Allowing class changes negates that design intent.

 

You may not like that design decision, but I'm guessing, and only guessing, that the devs DO like that separation between classes.

 

Just as many people fought against the idea of "instant 60s", and yet here they are.

 

There is a big defference between creating another character and changing your existing character's class.

 

No answer, in three years, was the answer pre-4.0, but the game is headed in a new direction.

 

Yet, there still has been NOTHING from the devs, not so much as a peep or even a hint of a whisper.

 

I will not be shocked to see 5.0 bring about the loss of importance of ACs when all classes end up with a tank option, a healing option, and a dps option. They did it to companions and I suspect that was a very popular change.

 

I think there is a decent chance we'll see that happen to our toons as well.

 

There is a difference between allowing everyone to use whichever companion they prefer and still have a pocket healer or a pocket tank, and allowing every class to fill all three roles.

 

That would also entail redoing the discipline trees for every class. That would mean that we would have 16 classes (8 per faction) that could heal, tank and DPS.

 

I'm going by the devs' definition of class and not that of the individual player who's definition is created to fit in with his desire to change his class.

 

But you go on believing what you want, if that makes you feel any better.

[ekwalizer]

That would also entail redoing the discipline trees for every class. That would mean that we would have 16 classes (8 per faction) that could heal, tank and DPS.

 

I think, and I could be wrong, that what TX is getting at is the elimination altogether of the AC system.

 

It would be Bounty Hunter with a Tank Tree, a DPS Tree and a Heal Tree.

 

This is a radical, fundamental change for the game. How do they decide which disciplines get the axe? Now they have to create tank abilities for Agent/Smuggler. They'd have to create heal abilities for Warrior/Knight.

 

I don't see it happening. Because most disciplines on the DPS side of the house lend themselves to either PvP or PvE. And again who makes the call between AP and Pyro? That is a trick question because the BH DPS spec would be either Arsenal or IO. Carnage, Annihilation and Fury?

Edited January 26, 2016 by ekwalizer

[GalacticKegger]

I think, and I could be wrong, that what TX is getting at is the elimination altogether of the AC system.

 

It would be Bounty Hunter with a Tank Tree, a DPS Tree and a Heal Tree.

 

This is a radical, fundamental change for the game. How do they decide which disciplines get the axe? Now they have to create tank abilities for Agent/Smuggler. They'd have to create heal abilities for Warrior/Knight.

 

I don't see it happening. Because most disciplines on the DPS side of the house lend themselves to either PvP or PvE. And again who makes the call between AP and Pyro? That is a trick question because the BH DPS spec would be either Arsenal or IO. Carnage, Annihilation and Fury?

If they can re-engineer the entire game's mechanics in one patch, then removing talent / discipline trees and replacing them with prepackaged ability sets accessible via a trinity pull down menu like our companions should be a breeze. Maybe even add a trio of premade PvP trinity builds too, and repurpose the Tactical FP filters to auto-scale expertise. Edited January 26, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[PorsaLindahl]

Ok. Say they did do this.

 

It would devalue all those alts that many people, myself included, have leveled up. I have 31 characters. All but a handful are 65. I have multiples of each class. I have invested a lot of time into those alts and geared their stats accordingly. What's the point of having so many character slots if you don't use them, after all?

 

Making it so each class could play any role, I feel, would be an act of desperation on BW's part to bring in more players. And it would probably just foretell the end of the game.

[Wallner]

It would devalue all those alts that many people, myself included, have leveled up. I have 31 characters. All but a handful are 65. I have multiples of each class. I have invested a lot of time into those alts and geared their stats accordingly.

 

I think this is where a lot of shoes are hurting.

 

I'm sorry if it would make you feel as if you've wasted your time levelling your alts (which it shouldn't, because you play the game because it's fun right?).

 

But even so, that fact does not make me not want to have the option to switch AC.

[ekwalizer]

12XP actually harmed the game. KotFE didn't save it. What makes you guys think that anything dumbing this game down further is the right answer?

[GalacticKegger]

I think this is where a lot of shoes are hurting.

 

I'm sorry if it would make you feel as if you've wasted your time levelling your alts (which it shouldn't, because you play the game because it's fun right?).

Depends on which game provided his/her fun leveling alts: SWTOR or KotFE. Because they're not the same game. Edited January 26, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[Fevee]

The original design intent that NO character be able to fill all three roles AT ANY TIME, not just at the same time is still intact. Allowing class changes negates that design intent.

allowing every class to fill all three roles.

 

Where exactly is that rhetoric coming from? Any one character can only fill any one role at any one time. An Operative, for example, can DPS or heal, depending on the discipline spec. Now, when they major in one, they kinda minor in the other. If they wanted to reverse proficiencies and major in the other, they have to respec to do so. And doing so requires out-of-battle calm time to set it up; meaning they're never a DPS-Healer or a Healer-DPS.

 

But, if said Operative switches over to Sniper, their option is then DPS, DPS, or DPS. No minor in healing at all, and never any tanking from either AC. So, sometimes we have Spec-with-a-hint-of-other-spec, but that doesn't mean they can actually fulfill that hint-of-other's role. No Imperial Agent can tank, so no amount of AC swapping means they can suddenly fulfill all three combat roles at once.

 

A Knight: AC 1 can DPS, DPS, or DPS. Whereas AC 2 can Tank, DPS, or DPS. With the exception of an extremely minor self-heal, there's no healing spec available for the benefit of others. Now, AC 2 can Tank-with-a-hint-of-DPS or DPS-with-a-hint-of-tank, but is never a DPS-Tank or Tank-DPS.

 

When we get down to Consulars, sure AC 1 has a healer spec and two other DPS specs, whereas AC 2 has a tank spec while having two DPS specs. But that never means they can hold all three battle roles in one battle (Unless you have an awesome healer who can "Sorcenaut" their way through enemy fire). We're already restricted from mere discipline re-speccing during warzones, so, AC swapping would definitely be disallowed during warzones. Now, I know there is field respec for disciplines, and I don't really care if they have a field respec for ACs, or make you go all the way back up to the Rodian/Duros up on the fleet to swap ACs.

 

Either way, I don't see where your argument is coming from. It's like complaining that field respec suddenly allows an Operative healer to become an Operative DPS on a whim. Of course it does, but that doesn't mean they can be both simultaneously. Plus, it cannot happen in the heat of battle, either. So where are you coming from, Ratajack?

[PorsaLindahl]

Depends on which game provided his/her fun leveling alts: SWTOR or KotFE. Because they're not the same game.

 

Let's see. My newest character, not counting the freebie 60 (which is a copy of an existing character on a different server), is well over a year old. And of those, only 1 is a product of 12x XP.

 

 

And yeah. Trimming down the AC's would be practically the same thing SOE did with SWG with the CU and NGE's. The more classes are cookie cuttered, the less inherent fun there will be.

Edited January 26, 2016 by PorsaLindahl

[GalacticKegger]

Let's see. My newest character, not counting the freebie 60 (which is a copy of an existing character on a different server), is well over a year old. And of those, only 1 is a product of 12x XP.

 

 

And yeah. Trimming down the AC's would be practically the same thing SOE did with SWG with the CU and NGE's. The more classes are cookie cuttered, the less inherent fun there will be.

Agreed. I just figured that since Bioware's taking the game in a one-size-fits-all direction anyway, why waste the time and expense of dragging it out and simply get it over with? Edited January 26, 2016 by GalacticKegger

[Ratajack]

Where exactly is that rhetoric coming from? Any one character can only fill any one role at any one time. An Operative, for example, can DPS or heal, depending on the discipline spec. Now, when they major in one, they kinda minor in the other. If they wanted to reverse proficiencies and major in the other, they have to respec to do so. And doing so requires out-of-battle calm time to set it up; meaning they're never a DPS-Healer or a Healer-DPS.

 

But, if said Operative switches over to Sniper, their option is then DPS, DPS, or DPS. No minor in healing at all, and never any tanking from either AC. So, sometimes we have Spec-with-a-hint-of-other-spec, but that doesn't mean they can actually fulfill that hint-of-other's role. No Imperial Agent can tank, so no amount of AC swapping means they can suddenly fulfill all three combat roles at once.

 

A Knight: AC 1 can DPS, DPS, or DPS. Whereas AC 2 can Tank, DPS, or DPS. With the exception of an extremely minor self-heal, there's no healing spec available for the benefit of others. Now, AC 2 can Tank-with-a-hint-of-DPS or DPS-with-a-hint-of-tank, but is never a DPS-Tank or Tank-DPS.

 

When we get down to Consulars, sure AC 1 has a healer spec and two other DPS specs, whereas AC 2 has a tank spec while having two DPS specs. But that never means they can hold all three battle roles in one battle (Unless you have an awesome healer who can "Sorcenaut" their way through enemy fire). We're already restricted from mere discipline re-speccing during warzones, so, AC swapping would definitely be disallowed during warzones. Now, I know there is field respec for disciplines, and I don't really care if they have a field respec for ACs, or make you go all the way back up to the Rodian/Duros up on the fleet to swap ACs.

 

Either way, I don't see where your argument is coming from. It's like complaining that field respec suddenly allows an Operative healer to become an Operative DPS on a whim. Of course it does, but that doesn't mean they can be both simultaneously. Plus, it cannot happen in the heat of battle, either. So where are you coming from, Ratajack?

 

The devs have stated that the classes were designed intentionally so that no single character should fill all three toles AT ANY TIME, not just "at the same time". The operative term is AT ANY TIME.

 

You can google the statements if you want to read them. I will not do your research for you.

 

The devs intended that no single character would be able to be a tank for this fight, then DPS for the next fight and heal for the third fight.

 

Notice that no single class (AC-treated as full classes per the devs) has a tanking spec, a healing spec and a DPS spec. Do some classes have a heal spec and two DPS specs? Yes. Do some classes have a tank spec and 2 DPS specs? Yes.

 

Can a character heal one fight as a sorcerer then change to DPS for the next fight? That sorcerer, however, cannot tank for the third fight. Allowing class changes would negate this design intent, allowing that sorcerer to change their class to assassin and then tank for the third fight.

 

It's not just a matter of a character being able to tank while having access to healing skills.

 

Prior to 4.0, I suggested a compromise in other threads regarding this topic. With the changes implemented ion 4.0, I do not think that compromise is a viable option any longer. This is why I said earlier that IF BW were to implement class changes they do it something like:

 

-class change would require a CM item, such as a token

-the class change token cost is the same as the cost to create an instant level 60 character

-the class change token is a single use consumable and not an unlock allowing unlimited class changes

-the class change token can ONLY be purchased with CC's

-the class change token is bound to legacy, so that it CANNOT be sold on the GTN

-the class change token has a 30 day cooldown

 

Making the class change token bound to legacy and unable to sold on the GTN means that no one would be able to use their overabundance of easily obtained credits to fund their FOTM flip-flopping class changes.

[TX_Angel]

The original design intent

 

I don't care, a whole lot of other people don't care, and that argument falls flat on its face in the volume of changes that have happened since launch.

 

If your whole defense is that, then you have nothing to stand on.

[TX_Angel]

I think, and I could be wrong, that what TX is getting at is the elimination altogether of the AC system.

 

That is one possibly way to go... Or you could keep it if people are attached to the names of the AC.

 

It would be Bounty Hunter with a Tank Tree, a DPS Tree and a Heal Tree.

 

More or less. You could call one a Merc and one a PowerTech, but have them effectively the same trees.

 

Or perhaps Merc gets one DPS tree and PowerTech gets another. Or perhaps the trees could be different between them.

 

Either way, the idea is to allow all classes (or ACs) to have a heal tree, a tank tree, and a dps tree.

 

This is a radical, fundamental change for the game. How do they decide which disciplines get the axe? Now they have to create tank abilities for Agent/Smuggler. They'd have to create heal abilities for Warrior/Knight.

 

It is any more than the companions losing most of their unique abilities and being able to be any role, and also removing all stats from their gear at the same time?

 

That was a pretty darn big change. How about the removal of the skill tree system?

 

I don't see it happening. Because most disciplines on the DPS side of the house lend themselves to either PvP or PvE. And again who makes the call between AP and Pyro? That is a trick question because the BH DPS spec would be either Arsenal or IO. Carnage, Annihilation and Fury?

 

Perhaps a compromise would be 1 tank tree, 1 heal tree, and 2 dps trees, to give some variety?

 

As for not seeing it happen, keep in mind that a LOT of things that are true post-4.0 would have been unthinkable at launch. No CD quick travel, speeders at level 1, species and appearance change, no gear on comps, instant level 60 toons, and a hundred other changes.

[TX_Angel]

Ok. Say they did do this.

 

It would devalue all those alts that many people, myself included, have leveled up. I have 31 characters. All but a handful are 65. I have multiples of each class. I have invested a lot of time into those alts and geared their stats accordingly. What's the point of having so many character slots if you don't use them, after all?

 

Making it so each class could play any role, I feel, would be an act of desperation on BW's part to bring in more players. And it would probably just foretell the end of the game.

 

First of all, the number of alts is insane. I'm guilty of this, with over 30 alts myself. Having played Final Fantasy XIV over Christmas, the idea that I can have one toon and she can be any class by just changing weapons is so brilliant I'm shocked more games don't do this.

 

Of course you have to level each class separately, but that's fine and reasonable, given the lack of instant level 50+ toons for sale there.

 

As for the various classes, keep in mind the trees don't have to all be the same. A Commando will tank differently to a Guardian... but perhaps tank the same as a Vanguard.

 

The lack of new ops and other end game content clearly indicates that Bioware is more focused on newer players than the old hands. Those who have been around awhile and have 30 alts are simply not of much further value to Bioware, clearly given the choices in the past 6 months.

[TX_Angel]

12XP actually harmed the game. KotFE didn't save it. What makes you guys think that anything dumbing this game down further is the right answer?

 

What makes you think allowing each class to play all three roles is "dumbing this game down" at all?

 

In fact, if anything, it may be lifting it back up. Many people won't level a healer or a tank, but might play them at end game. Not everyone has 30 alts, some people have just a few.

[TX_Angel]

And yeah. Trimming down the AC's would be practically the same thing SOE did with SWG with the CU and NGE's. The more classes are cookie cuttered, the less inherent fun there will be.

 

To you, perhaps... and to the launch customers...

 

But how many of those are still around? What efforts is Bioware making today, in 2016, to keep them? What efforts is Bioware making to attract new customers?

 

SWG was a long time ago, in game and MMO terms, the customer base was different, the competition was different.

 

SWTOR was designed with far more complexity and far slower leveling in mind, its "design intent" if you like. Much of that has been washed away in the past year, first by 12x XP and then by 4.0 which brought about insanely fast leveling.

 

SWTOR as it existed 4 years ago is gone, KotFE replaced it with something modified for a different player. I think some of the butt hurt is the old hands not wanting change.

 

Might I suggest a read of a very fine book: "Who moved my Cheese?"

[ekwalizer]

I think this is where a lot of shoes are hurting.

 

I'm sorry if it would make you feel as if you've wasted your time levelling your alts (which it shouldn't, because you play the game because it's fun right?).

 

But even so, that fact does not make me not want to have the option to switch AC.

 

So, what you are saying is that it's "OK" for others to feel diminished as long as you get what you want?

[Fevee]

IF BW were to implement class changes

 

I don't care how much you all-caps it, I don't care how much you DeepSkyBlue it, I don't care how much you try to emphasize it, you keep treating AC swapping like class changing. No. We're not asking to switch from Shadow to Scoundrel, we're not asking to switch from Gunslinger to Guardian, we're not asking to switch from Mercenary to Marauder. Even if you supply proof that the devs said what you say they said, you are the only one in these forums that believe them. Advanced Classes are actually just Sub Classes; cousins. They're already 95% of the way to being eachother, stop trying to blow it out of proportion by treating it like something else. (I think that's called making a mountain out of a molehill.)

 

-class change would require a CM item, such as a token

-the class change token cost is the same as the cost to create an instant level 60 character

-the class change token is a single use consumable and not an unlock allowing unlimited class changes

-the class change token can ONLY be purchased with CC's

-the class change token is bound to legacy, so that it CANNOT be sold on the GTN

-the class change token has a 30 day cooldown

 

Making the class change token bound to legacy and unable to sold on the GTN means that no one would be able to use their overabundance of easily obtained credits to fund their FOTM flip-flopping class changes.

 

You know what, I actually agree with all that. Subclass swapping is enough of a change that they should stick with it long enough to actually try it out. I never tried to imply that it's a change to be taken lightly. A cooldown for the Subclass swap token would ensure that they can't just switch it up on a whim. It's a choice to be taken after careful consideration, but at least players would have the freedom to choose, one way or the other.

[Fevee]

That is one possibly way to go... Or you could keep it if people are attached to the names of the AC.

 

"If you like your plan, you can keep your plan! If you like your AC, you can keep your AC!"

 

(Sorry ... had to be done)

 

In a more serious manner, Subclass abolishment would be a bad idea. That's where Ratajack's argument that people can respec for healing, tanking, and DPS on a whim comes true. Plus, all the Subclasses have their own set of disciplines. Did you want to get rid of those as well? There is still a difference between the Subclasses, and abolishing Subclasses to merge the two together? No, let's not kill the diversity.

 

I think the OP was asking to be able to hop the line between Subclasses (not entire classes, mind you, Ratajack); not for the line to be blurred into oblivion.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Fevee

[ekwalizer]

(1) What makes you think allowing each class to play all three roles is "dumbing this game down" at all?

 

(1) In fact, if anything, it may be lifting it back up. (2) Many people won't level a healer or a tank, but might play them at end game. Not everyone has 30 alts, some people have just a few.

 

(1)How is it not dumbing the game down further? Under your trinity system, that eliminates 2/3rds of the DPS disciplines. That isn't maintaining variety or complexity it is removing it.

 

Under the old shared tree system that might have worked if they kept all five trees per arch-type. Although in cases like PT/Merc Pyro someone would have to decide whether that is a 1-gun or two spec. The same for the Rage for Warriors (one saber or two?). The same for Madness (single or double blade) and the same for Lethality (Blaster Rifle or Sniper Rifle).

 

(2) And they have that exact option under the current system. No one is forced to level as a healer. Leveling as a solo healer doesn't teach you to group heal. Leveling as a solo tank doesn't really teach you anything about group tanking. I level all of my toons as DPS then assign them at max level into the role I want them.

 

Every subscriber has at least 12 slots. I don't pander to F2P/Preferred so I really don't care what their restriction is.

[ekwalizer]

I don't care how much you all-caps it, I don't care how much you DeepSkyBlue it, I don't care how much you try to emphasize it, you keep treating AC swapping like class changing. No. We're not asking to switch from Shadow to Scoundrel, we're not asking to switch from Gunslinger to Guardian, we're not asking to switch from Mercenary to Marauder. Even if you supply proof that the devs said what you say they said, you are the only one in these forums that believe them. Advanced Classes are actually just Sub Classes; cousins. They're already 95% of the way to being eachother, stop trying to blow it out of proportion by treating it like something else. (I think that's called making a mountain out of a molehill.)

 

You know what, I actually agree with all that. Subclass swapping is enough of a change that they should stick with it long enough to actually try it out. I never tried to imply that it's a change to be taken lightly. A cooldown for the Subclass swap token would ensure that they can't just switch it up on a whim. It's a choice to be taken after careful consideration, but at least players would have the freedom to choose, one way or the other.

 

It's more like 25% similarity between ACs; certainly not 95. Is there bleed over between ACs of the same story? Yes. Was there talk of AC changing way back in beta? Yes. Has there been any legitimate talk of it since? No.

 

Consular and Smuggler are stories, not classes. Shadow and Scoundrel are Classes not Sub-classes, we just call them Advanced Classes here. This isn't PnP D&D where you can be a Warrior 10/Ranger 2/Rogue 8. You can only be one thing. If you choose to be a mercenary that is how the game displays your class. Your character sheet doesn't say Bounty Hunter 10, Mercenary 55.

 

Where people get confused is that unlike any other AAA MMO this game let's you "test drive" a story before committing to a class within that story.

 

There is no fundamental difference between going from a PT to a Merc and going from an Operative to a Merc. You are still going from a melee class to a ranged class. There is no ranged spec for an Assassin and there is no Melee spec for a Sorcerer. Call it the slippery slope logical fallacy all you like, but the 60-token has made AC Respec all but a certainty in many people's mind; where once it was but a pipe dream.

 

Mechanically there is no difference between a Juggernaut and a Guardian. Those are the same class. Just not the same story.

[TX_Angel]

"If you like your plan, you can keep your plan! If you like your AC, you can keep your AC!"

 

(Sorry ... had to be done)

 

I thought it was quite funny... I get the joke, and since this is just a game and not real life, it doesn't bother me at all.

 

Actually, thinking about what you said... I can see a situation where a lot of people might complain if various trees were removed.

 

What about simply having each class able to pick from every skill tree from both ACs? That would give a Commando, what... 1 tank, 1 heal, and 4 dps trees? Likewise, a Vanguard would get the same 6 trees.

 

What do you think of that compromise?

Edited January 27, 2016 by TX_Angel

[TX_Angel]

(1)How is it not dumbing the game down further? Under your trinity system, that eliminates 2/3rds of the DPS disciplines. That isn't maintaining variety or complexity it is removing it.

 

I see your point, and addressed it in my post just above.

 

What about that solution? 1 tank tree, 1 heal tree, and 4 dps trees for each AC? This way, no one has to lose anything.

 

Every subscriber has at least 12 slots. I don't pander to F2P/Preferred so I really don't care what their restriction is.

 

Yea, but how many actually use all 12? I suspect that a vocal minority screamed for more than 22 slots, while the vast majority of players have fewer than 6 toons. I don't know of course, Bioware has never released that info, but if I had to place my money down, that is what I'd place it on.

 

After playing FF XIV, the idea of having to roll a dozen alts looks REALLY stupid. Ok, I get Empire/Republic, and I get Force user/non-Force user.

 

So that would be 4 alts.

 

1 Jedi

1 Smuggler/Trooper

1 Sith

1 Agent/BH

 

You could actually keep all the roles that currently exist in the game with just those 4 toons, and still keep a sense of separation between force/non-force, and factions.

[TX_Angel]

Consular and Smuggler are stories, not classes. Shadow and Scoundrel are Classes not Sub-classes, we just call them Advanced Classes here.

 

No, actually the game calls them exactly that... Consular is the class, Shadow is the Advanced Class, it is quite clear in the game.

 

It is also true that the differences in story between a Sage and a Shadow are more or less zero. The actual advanced class plays differently, but nothing in the actual game world cares or notes which AC you are.

 

There is no fundamental difference between going from a PT to a Merc and going from an Operative to a Merc. You are still going from a melee class to a ranged class.

 

Some day, someone is going to have to explain how a Vanguard has a blaster rifle yet can only shoot 10 meters. That is one of the most contrived things I've seen in a long time.

 

It is even more contrived to suggest that a Vanguard couldn't easily learn how to shoot 30m. The ONLY reason the limit is there is to attempt to class balance, no more or less. It makes zero sense in the story. But then it is just a game, not real life. In real life, you wouldn't send 8 people to fight on the ground with a super ops boss, you'd nuke the site from orbit.

 

Mechanically there is no difference between a Juggernaut and a Guardian. Those are the same class. Just not the same story.

 

As noted above, you are mistaken.

 

A Juggernaut's class is "Sith Warrior". A Guardian's class is "Jedi Knight".

 

The game couldn't be more clear that is the case.