Gear Rewards from Eternal Championship

[casirabit]

I still haven't had anyone answer the simple question ...

 

WHY do these players need this gear? You get gear more than good enough to achieve the 3rd most difficult content in the game and that is storymode operations ( plus it's bolstered for people even way back on level 50

 

Why? Because too many people doing operations demand people to have gear better than what it requires. I was doing operations (healer) and was helping a friend who was a healer and I suggested to the group I was healing for that we bring her along. I had already taken the time to explain stuff to her and she had the basic gear that was necessary but not the gear the rest have.

 

Their response: No we don't to take her. She doesn't have xxx gear. Even when I told them the gear required is what she has and she also had all her stuff augmented. She the type to make sure she has that and the correct gear and they refused to give her a chance.

 

I refused to that operation with them I told them why. When people in operations start acting like this and forget that we each had to get our gear and refuse to help someone new then there is a problem so maybe that is a reason some people want the gear so maybe they will at least have the gear some people demand.

[Master-Nala]

I still haven't had anyone answer the simple question ...

 

WHY do these players need this gear? You get gear more than good enough to achieve the 3rd most difficult content in the game and that is storymode operations ( plus it's bolstered for people even way back on level 50 ).

 

Let me turn that around on you: why do raiders need the best gear?

 

The answer to both questions is: THEY DON'T.

 

The only reason raiders need gear is to create a progression treadmill. Beat this, get gear to beat the next guy, etc. There's no NEED for it to work like that. That is just the progression model that Everquest brought into being in the early 00s' The problem that themepark MMOs that cater to soloists have is that it leaves a lot of people out.

 

Many people want to progress their characters. It's that simple. They may or may not want to raid. Personally, I have no problem creating incentives to raid, even giving raiders the best gear. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that anyone 'needs' any particular gear.

 

Raiders get the best gear because it feeds an achiever mindset. That's not a bad thing. Or good. It just is. But that does not foreclose other models that don't include or revolve around raiding.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Master-Nala

[MeNaCe-NZ]

This is actually pretty easy if you've played Final Fantasy XIV for any length of time - Fallen Empire is VERY similar to the content progression for that game's "A Realm Reborn" second release. Progression in that game works pretty much like this:

 

1) New raids are released. These raids get top content first so they can do the story content coming up more easily, along with being able to function in later stages of the raid.

 

2) Dungeons (Flashpoints) are released a bit later that progress the story a little, along with some story content. Raiders do it easily, people who are more casual can still complete and have a not-terrible time.

 

3) Solo/casual content is released that allows players to get equivalent gear to the original Raid gear, albeit visually different and usually not too attractive.

 

4) Once a large portion of the population has the raid-equivalent gear, a new raid is opened and the cycle continues.

 

Applying that to TOR's philosophy with Fallen Empire content, it's quite likely that Chapters 11-14 will NEED 220 gear for most players to stand a chance. By that point, Raid players will probably have access to 224 regularly and 228 occasionally, from the new Ops that are scheduled to be released with 2.4 or 2.5. Move the targets again with chapters 15-18, then again with the expansion following Fallen Empire, and so on.

 

OK if chapters 11-14 need that gear then yes I see your point HOWEVER I REALLY doubt they are going to do that because that forces people either to do EC or raids to be able to do their regular story content and that's just not the direction BW are heading as proven by the companion debacle and just how easy KoTFE was.

 

I think EC is a fun concept and adds something extra to do and adds some solo challenge to those that want it ... nothing more. I don't think it should serve as a means of gearing because there is just nothing to gear for with it.

 

Thus imo rewards should be something that people actually want and would appreciate ... even tokens etc. like with the kingpin slot machine, get enough to buy X vanity item from the vanity store for EC *shrug* I still think a bronze/silver/gold CM pack drop each week based on how far you got would be a pretty neat prize myself with the gold level 10 being really difficult to beat and mechanics changing each week or so to prevent cheesing it.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Why? Because too many people doing operations demand people to have gear better than what it requires. I was doing operations (healer) and was helping a friend who was a healer and I suggested to the group I was healing for that we bring her along. I had already taken the time to explain stuff to her and she had the basic gear that was necessary but not the gear the rest have.

 

Their response: No we don't to take her. She doesn't have xxx gear. Even when I told them the gear required is what she has and she also had all her stuff augmented. She the type to make sure she has that and the correct gear and they refused to give her a chance.

 

I refused to that operation with them I told them why. When people in operations start acting like this and forget that we each had to get our gear and refuse to help someone new then there is a problem so maybe that is a reason some people want the gear so maybe they will at least have the gear some people demand.

 

Isolated examples surely? I wouldn't run with people like that either ... the whole "must run this as fast as possible, taking these shortcuts and bypassing this and that and you must have this gear" crowd is what truly ruins raiding and would be a major contributor to no new raids so I certainly wouldn't want to cater to their elitist demands by actually helping people get gear to raid with them and get turned off completely when they get abused for not knowing the raid.

No I would rather those people quit from having no one to run with and thus nothing to do so like they always threaten to do so storymode can be for the more casual player as it's so clearly designed now.

 

Bolster works fine for the SM ops I've personally done, done it with some pretty mixed groups and as long as new players are open to saying their new and having a quick run down of each boss fight it's usually a breeze.

 

Now if you were talking about HM above ... well that's fair enough to the rest of the group ... it's HM for a reason.

 

Now I'm not against gear coming from EC because "it hsould only come from raiding" - I'm against it's just not needed for any logical reason as per my post to the dev.

I would like to see EC become something awesome and useful that everyone can't wait to do each week and we've got an opportunity to try provide rewards that will achieve that, gear that people don't want/need ISN'T going to get them doing it - it will become yet an over glossed over rarely used feature.

 

Hopefully this dev is reading and realises his job ideally relies on the uptake of the content ( remember George who was the operation designer, he's no longer around you might note ) and thus should be thinking seriously about what carrot he can put on the stick to ensure the content gets and maintains a large uptake.

Gear is not the answer, it's been done before and fails every time to attract a major audience ( i.e. raiding ) - the major audience comes from casuals and casuals are more likely to do something for a shot of a rancor from a gold mount pack than they ever will for to them some worthless piece of 999 stat gear that helps them do content they have no interest in doing.

Solo players are solo players and often don't want to group, throwing gear at them won't change this - the companion/level sync debates proved this from so many of their opinions being put forward that stated just this.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Let me turn that around on you: why do raiders need the best gear?

 

The answer to both questions is: THEY DON'T.

 

The only reason raiders need gear is to create a progression treadmill. Beat this, get gear to beat the next guy, etc. There's no NEED for it to work like that. That is just the progression model that Everquest brought into being in the early 00s' The problem that themepark MMOs that cater to soloists have is that it leaves a lot of people out.

 

Many people want to progress their characters. It's that simple. They may or may not want to raid. Personally, I have no problem creating incentives to raid, even giving raiders the best gear. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that anyone 'needs' any particular gear.

 

Raiders get the best gear because it feeds an achiever mindset. That's not a bad thing. Or good. It just is. But that does not foreclose other models that don't include or revolve around raiding.

 

They need the gear to actually complete the content ... it's progression raiding ... sort of obvious really.

 

I personally have no interest in doing NIM or all HM myself and thus don't care if I have the top gear but I don't want to see EC become another wasted feature for the reasons outlined in my last post.

[Gelious]

the cartel coins can provide an incentive to practice on a regular basis, with a group, getting them the feel for group content.

Lord Artemis, there is no way in hell they will make anything in game to drop Cartel Coins. It will never happen, ever. I can't believe you are actually suggesting that,

[MeNaCe-NZ]

Lord Artemis, there is no way in hell they will make anything in game to drop Cartel Coins. It will never happen, ever. I can't believe you are actually suggesting that,

 

Why? I can refer people already playing and paying for a ton of CC's ( and I do ) as well as giving me some freebies for subbing. Not that much of a stretch of a small give away from a feature that keeps people subbing.

[Soul_of_Flames]

I don't remember if I made this suggestion already... so meh, gonna post anyway.

 

This mode should NOT drop gear. It should drop currency.

 

Then you spend that currency on a vendor that gives you things from decorations and mounts, to armor sets and mid-tier gear.

 

As far as ACTUAL gear this vendor should give you: I'd keep it simple. It should give two things:

1. Poorly itemized 216 Main Hand weapons.

2. 216 Proc relics that you can't get from the glowing crystal vendor (Serendipitous Assault, etc)

 

This is a better idea because you can change the things the vendor gives or even add to it. Whereas specific drops will make this mode become obsolete with the next patch. - Players will conquer the arena and be done with it. But if you introduce new prizes, then interest in it will continue... all without having to actually add/change fights.

 

For example, you can make a really nice looking item on the vendor require a price that asks you to participate in the Eternal Championship a number of times before you can afford it.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Soul_of_Flames

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

Lord Artemis, there is no way in hell they will make anything in game to drop Cartel Coins. It will never happen, ever. I can't believe you are actually suggesting that,

 

Some ingame achievements give out Cartel Coins. Just running through the class stories grants a total of 640 Cartel Coins (20 per chapter/prologue per class) and there are a whole host of other achievements that give out CCs beyond that.

Edited January 20, 2016 by The-Kaitou-Kid

[BrianDavion]

They need the gear to actually complete the content ... it's progression raiding ... sort of obvious really.

 

if that was the case why would they be complaining that the gear drops in Nightmare mode where the same as in hard mode though and the Nightmore mode special drops are mounts pets etc? with the way raiding is now, isn't nightmare mode the end of the line and thus why do they need better gear? I'm not saying NiM shouldn't award better gear here, I'm just pointing out the split here. the answer is people like to be powerful, they like to progress to be powerful etc. just because someone runes solo that doesn't change.

[Damask_Rose]

They need the gear to actually complete the content ... it's progression raiding ... sort of obvious really.

 

I personally have no interest in doing NIM or all HM myself and thus don't care if I have the top gear but I don't want to see EC become another wasted feature for the reasons outlined in my last post.

 

I was rather hoping EC would be treated as solo progression; that wave 10 will be genuinely hard for most players. There is no reason solo play can't have progression as well. Give us solo players a reason to wear the gear we want! (And yes, many of us who solo do want better gear too. Need and want are two different things.)

[MeNaCe-NZ]

if that was the case why would they be complaining that the gear drops in Nightmare mode where the same as in hard mode though and the Nightmore mode special drops are mounts pets etc? with the way raiding is now, isn't nightmare mode the end of the line and thus why do they need better gear? I'm not saying NiM shouldn't award better gear here, I'm just pointing out the split here. the answer is people like to be powerful, they like to progress to be powerful etc. just because someone runes solo that doesn't change.

 

NIM is a carry over from 4.0 and they've basically outlined there will be no future NIM ( even removing some older NIM modes ).

 

If that weren't the case though the general design concept of progression is to progress and to achieve said progression you would need the drops from each boss to hopefully get a bit further in future attempts.

 

This is why you can strip out the mods and enhancements and put them in other areas to boost your build to make you and your raid team that much better and have that much more chance of beating a boss before enrage or whatever may be failing.

 

NIM was as I see it never designed for you to get your complete HM set and run through it no worries, you would slowly but surely progress which is why it had so little uptake and thus a main reason why no future support for it I assume.

 

Now the gear concept for EC though if there was a concept of progression to be had then sweet it would make sense but I don't see it. You don't need gear to progress in SM you have boslter, you get better gear than boslter from doing KoTfe, better gear still from FPs/HM FPs/SF ( be it drops or earning crystals ) and anywhere else you can earn your crystals.

 

Why go to the trouble of inventing a new, cool game mode just to throw more of the same at people?

Try something different, mix it up - give people something to strive for and thus something to pay for in their elder game content.

 

The alliance grind won't keep people occupied forever and if they keep just stretching it out chapter to chapter they will see the subs get bored and see it for the money grab it is and slowly but surely drop off knowing damn well they can come back in 7 months for all chapters for the price of 1.

[MeNaCe-NZ]

I was rather hoping EC would be treated as solo progression; that wave 10 will be genuinely hard for most players. There is no reason solo play can't have progression as well. Give us solo players a reason to wear the gear we want! (And yes, many of us who solo do want better gear too. Need and want are two different things.)

 

Yup now that would be a valid reason to get better gear but if it's that hard to you really see many people going for it after the uproar around companion nerf? So many people want casual easy and if this becomes so hard they have to work through a gearing regime just to progress I just don't see those people bothering and it will become a wasted feature.

 

Throw vanity items at it though and voila everyone is happy. PLUS you can still have your gearing grind/progression by throwing decent quantities of crystals to help with gearing.

Ignoring min/max elitists crystal gearing is more than an adequate form of progression gearing for this sort of content right through to HM operations ( though you should have gotten better gear doing SM versions anyway since no one should be jumping straight into HM ).

[Nireesh]

I'm really hoping for a good challenge for solo players for wave 10. Something that I can't complete in 5min. Maybe some mechanics in the encounter that I have to figure out and if I don't get just right I can actually die! The harder the better. If it takes a while for a player to get it right then that'd be great.

 

Having said that I'd like to see something like:

Waves 1-5 could be maybe 208 gear

 

Waves 6-9 I think it'd be nice to get 4 set-bonus pieces for 216 gear (but not the full set).

 

With that level of challenge I'd hope to see some fairly decent rewards too.. for completing the final wave maybe a hardmode level weapon and/or offhand.

[RiVaN_]

 

The Eternal Championship provides an alternative way for solo players to get higher tiers of gear, albeit at a slower rate compared to Flashpoints/Operations. The highest rating gear will still be reserved for the more difficult group content as those require more coordination and effort from more players.

 

Looking through the posts in the thread so far, I’ve seen suggestions that match some of what we’re trying to do, some beyond the scope of this feature, and some additional ideas that are “that’s cool, we should consider that”. I’ll be keeping an eye on this thread so please keep those suggestions coming. I won’t be able to reply to each person individually, but will post an update when we have something substantial to share.

 

Again, thanks for taking the time. See you in game (from the shadows, you never know when a developer is stealthily following you around).

 

Anything higher than 216 gear and you negate the need to run Ops at all and you will lose subscribers/raiders and most will never return to this game. There are too many good games on the rise right now. ESO won 2015 GOTY and Blade and Soul just launched today.

I have been # 7465 in que for B&S for the last 20 min...

Good luck BW, you're gonna need to start doing more to attract more subscribers and keep the ones you have.

[Mornok]

Hello everyone,

 

This is Steven Chew and I’ll be coordinating as well as working on the Eternal Championship. Firstly, I’d like to thank everyone for providing their input. It’s very encouraging as a developer to hear from players who are engaged in the content that we create. I’ve been going through the posts on this feature for Game Update 4.2, and wanted to give some insight on what we’re trying to achieve with this.

 

As mentioned in the stream, this is meant to give the solo player (with companion) a series of challenges that gets progressively harder. The goal is to have the first 5 rounds be achievable by players who have just completed the first 9 chapters of KotFE, but with some additional elements. By successfully completing Round 5, they will get gear that is better than what they’ve been able to get from the story content. Beginning in Round 6, the challenges will start increasing in difficulty and building up to the final encounter in Round 10. We are still in the process of fine-tuning what the difficulty increase feels like.

 

The Eternal Championship provides an alternative way for solo players to get higher tiers of gear, albeit at a slower rate compared to Flashpoints/Operations. The highest rating gear will still be reserved for the more difficult group content as those require more coordination and effort from more players.

 

Looking through the posts in the thread so far, I’ve seen suggestions that match some of what we’re trying to do, some beyond the scope of this feature, and some additional ideas that are “that’s cool, we should consider that”. I’ll be keeping an eye on this thread so please keep those suggestions coming. I won’t be able to reply to each person individually, but will post an update when we have something substantial to share.

 

Again, thanks for taking the time. See you in game (from the shadows, you never know when a developer is stealthily following you around).

 

I'm very excited about this! Think it's awesome you are making it possible for solo players to gear up. I love group content, but ti's great for solo players to have a solo system for gear tiering too!

[Loki_]

The highest rating gear will still be reserved for the more difficult group content as those require more coordination and effort from more players.

 

Wow that almost seems like you are confirming that Nightmare content should be dropping the highest tear of gear.

 

And yet we are only going to have a "chance" to get 224 drops from NIM ops when somebody can be bothered to get round to fixing it :s

Edited January 20, 2016 by Loki_

[RiVaN_]

I'm very excited about this! Think it's awesome you are making it possible for solo players to gear up. I love group content, but ti's great for solo players to have a solo system for gear tiering too!

 

Good luck to you.

Most people will find group content pointless if they can get their gear in a solo mode challenge. Group Finder will be even more dead...

I have to hand it to Bioware, they are doing a good job of helping ESO, Wildstar, Blade and Soul and NWO be successful.

[Halinalle]

Good luck to you.

Most people will find group content pointless if they can get their gear in a solo mode challenge. Group Finder will be even more dead...

I have to hand it to Bioware, they are doing a good job of helping ESO, Wildstar, Blade and Soul and NWO be successful.

 

I did Eyeless 8-man SM yesterday. Unassembled Defiant MK-X Implant dropped. Ops leader took it and ran.

I didn't even notice it until others started talking about it in ops chat.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Halinalle

[Tarbuch]

I did Eyeless 8-man SM yesterday. Unassembled Defiant MK-X Implant dropped. Ops leader took it and ran.

I didn't even notice it until others started talking about it in ops chat.

 

And what do we learn from this? > People are bastards.

If you don't want to be in that situation again; don't PUG and only group with friends or guild.

[schuichi]

Sorry my Englsich ist not Very God, i Speak German :

 

 

So noch einmal entschuldigung dafür, ich kann leider nur Wortfetzen Englisch .

 

 

In der Itemprogression des Ewigen Wetkampfes könnte man ja eigen Level einbringen. Das heißt wenn da 20iger drauf steht hat das durchaus noch mehr Ausdauer als das Markengear .

[Jerba]

if that was the case why would they be complaining that the gear drops in Nightmare mode where the same as in hard mode though and the Nightmore mode special drops are mounts pets etc? with the way raiding is now, isn't nightmare mode the end of the line and thus why do they need better gear? I'm not saying NiM shouldn't award better gear here, I'm just pointing out the split here. the answer is people like to be powerful, they like to progress to be powerful etc. just because someone runes solo that doesn't change.

Gear encourages players to keep killing a boss after the first kill. Some exclusive NiM mounts do the same thing but the problem is that a) most players already got them before 4.0 and b) once some player got that mount, it is difficult to motivate him to kill the boss 7 more times so that everyone from the group gets the mount. With mounts that don't drop 100% (like the one from EC/TFB/S&V), it is even more difficult to motivate players for a chance at a mount.

I like the idea MeNaCe-NZ suggested of dropping tokens. That way, everyone from the group gets something and can work toward getting an item.

Me personally, I can live with a progression that's not focused around gear (though I know some players from my guild don't care about vanity items) but if they do it, they need to ensure there is no exploit and all the loot tables are correct. If they add exclusive NiM loot, it has to only drop from difficult NiM bosses.

 

Anyway, we are getting a little bit off-topic. The dev has stated that the highest tier is reserved for group content so there's not much point in arguing whether or not raiding should be based on gear progression.

[LordArtemis]

Lord Artemis, there is no way in hell they will make anything in game to drop Cartel Coins. It will never happen, ever. I can't believe you are actually suggesting that,

 

I can suggest it. If they choose not to implement it, so be it.

 

There are other methods right now to get CC in game...if I am not mistaken you can get north of 600 coins just leveling a character, or something to that effect.

 

The idea is to create a carrot FOR CASUALS. CC is a good carrot for casuals.

Edited January 20, 2016 by LordArtemis

[BrianDavion]

Gear encourages players to keep killing a boss after the first kill. Some exclusive NiM mounts do the same thing but the problem is that a) most players already got them before 4.0 and b) once some player got that mount, it is difficult to motivate him to kill the boss 7 more times so that everyone from the group gets the mount. With mounts that don't drop 100% (like the one from EC/TFB/S&V), it is even more difficult to motivate players for a chance at a mount.

I like the idea MeNaCe-NZ suggested of dropping tokens. That way, everyone from the group gets something and can work toward getting an item.

Me personally, I can live with a progression that's not focused around gear (though I know some players from my guild don't care about vanity items) but if they do it, they need to ensure there is no exploit and all the loot tables are correct. If they add exclusive NiM loot, it has to only drop from difficult NiM bosses.

 

Anyway, we are getting a little bit off-topic. The dev has stated that the highest tier is reserved for group content so there's not much point in arguing whether or not raiding should be based on gear progression.

 

ohh I agree, when I asked about that, it was more to counter the arguement that since solo players don't raid they don't need good gear. now I think the important thing to note is EC is supposed to be a alternative to flashpoints and operations, given these facts the question is "what type of gear should this grant?" looking at the listing I think honestly 216 set peice bonus gear would be fair. it'd restrict the b etter gear ((220 and 224s) to raiding, and story mode raids would simply be "a quicker way to gear"

[FlyinSpaghetti]

See, this is part of the problem I think, but I'm only one guy with an opinion. I don't think ANY RAID gear should drop from solo content at all, because what's the point in doing ops then?

 

What's the point in doing anything other than ops at endgame?

 

That's a question I've been asking since 2.0, when they removed the ability to obtain set bonus or even optimal pieces from flashpoints and the comms vendors. We already got content in this game some like HM blood hunt which are significantly tougher on group co-ordination than a lot of the sm ops yet the rewards don't match the challenge. Yet you can go into EV & KP HM and faceroll them for not only 220's but 224 also.

 

Again I'm only one guy with an opinion too...