Tactical flashpoints, please put back

[E-Zekiel]

I don't think you or a lot of veterans here remember how long it took you to get as good as you are now. You had your hands held because back in the day the game got progressively more difficult, gradually easing you into Heroic 2+s, Heroic 4s, FPs, then FPs.

 

We don't have that now and the game is suffering because of it.

 

Well, not necessarily. I have always (and I don't mean this in an egotistical way) been relatively talented when it comes to video games, strategy, etc. This is probably because I started on them at a young age and my wits became quick...well, quickly.

 

I think people can noticeably improve, and quickly, provided others (like myself) are patient with them. I think the problem with these groups is mostly impatience and laziness on the part of veterans, more so than the new players. Because older players should really be trying to help, not just saying "u suck, ****".

 

I mean, if people are in a hurry, that's one thing. But I feel like if an individual is in a big damn hurry, they shouldn't be attempting to do content that involves more than just them, unless it's with people they know.

Edited January 4, 2016 by E-Zekiel

[SuperNovice]

Well, not necessarily. I have always (and I don't mean this in an egotistical way) been relatively talented when it comes to video games, strategy, etc. This is probably because I started on them at a young age and my wits became quick...well, quickly.

 

I think people can noticeably improve, and quickly, provided others (like myself) are patient with them. I think the problem with these groups is mostly impatience and laziness on the part of veterans, more so than the new players. Because older players should really be trying to help, not just saying "u suck, ****".

 

I mean, if people are in a hurry, that's one thing. But I feel like if an individual is in a big damn hurry, they shouldn't be attempting to do content that involves more than just them, unless it's with people they know.

 

Yeah this game isn't even that hard, even back then, just impatient "vets" unwilling to help scrubs and getting mad and whining instead.

[Halinalle]

You know that first pull in tactical that's like, one champion, three strongs and two standards

 

That's nothing compared to famous pull in Hammer Station.

 

As you can see from my video I didn't have issues clearing that pull in Hammer Station on Sentinel. You know, the advanced class with "worst defensive cooldowns".

Edited January 4, 2016 by Halinalle

[Unperson]

"Tacticals are too hard. Requires tank and healer."

 

If level 65 character can solo them then it shouldn't be difficult for multiple lower level characters in group. In fact, I've even seen video where 4 low level characters go through False Emperor.

 

[TACTICAL] Flashpoints vary greatly in difficulty. False Emperor and Hammer Station are on the easier side of the spectrum. The original Revan arc ones are on the harder side. I haven't tried Red Reaper, but from what I remember it should be fun with all the heavy-hitting strongs around.

 

Problem isn't whether you or me can solo them. You've proven that you can solo HS (whoop-de-***********-do). I know I can solo some others and often I do for fun. That is irrelevant. Problem is that by queuing, a player can get any FP from the list. A level 15 mara fresh off Korriban can get thrown into Red Reaper, with players of similar skill, and usually all DPS. Does that make sense to you?

 

This sort of thing is off-putting for two reasons: first, new and returning players get zero story context, which is supposed to be one of the strong suits of the game, and second, the difficulty spike this represents since the game went into full brain-dead mode in 4.0 means people will be less excited to try group content if they remember it being stressful at best, or impossible at worst.

 

Please stop comparing apples and oranges. Maybe consider what your odds of beating Foundry on a level 15-20 character would have been, before you were the uber leet macho solo wonder of gaming you are now. WITHOUT A HEALER.

[Halinalle]

First boss is a bit annoying for melee but only difficult boss fight in Foundry is HK and that's because of buttons.

 

You don't need healer for trash.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Halinalle

[knowmyname]

I don't think you or a lot of veterans here remember how long it took you to get as good as you are now. You had your hands held because back in the day the game got progressively more difficult, gradually easing you into Heroic 2+s, Heroic 4s, then FPs.

 

We don't have that now and the game is suffering because of it.

 

I can agree with that statement.

 

The game is dumbed down to a simple minded casual player.

 

 

Btw the latest stream is my level 17 scoundrel. Level 20 now due to the XP from the flashpoint. Though I quit when the driver crashed you can see I'm able to progress through the flashpoint. It is slower going and I'm having to "thin out" the groups. But you can solo Hammer Station at level 17 if you have the credits for repairs and the patients for respawns. Most don't and will say it's impossible. When it's actually not.

 

After going through that and if I add just 1 more player, the added DPS alone will make this a lot easier. May not even wipe, if pulled properly. So these guys complaining about a 4 man tactical with whatever class and any level is over exaggerated. The real issue is the players you're grouped with. If they attack CC and focus/tunnel golds instead of the trash first, then you have issues. It's not the flashpoint.

 

For years I have been assistingothers with Flashpoints. I know them very well. I've soloed Hard Mode Flashpoints Pre-4.0. I solo Tactical Flashpoints Post-4.0. I've had tanks talk smack when they outright don't do their job and I tank it for them. I've explained mechanics, fights, situations, strategy, mentored a ton of layers that aren't even in the game anymore. Anyone can join, it's open to all. I stream all gameplay so others can watch how I go through the Flashpoints, Operations, or War zones.

 

The biggest thing I have issues with is the 4.0 nerf to companions. Especially the Absorb, Defense, Shield ratings and Tech/Force Power ratings.

 

The companions are not the same.

Force user companions Dots and Heals tick one more time than Tech companions.

Original tank companions hold agro better and tank better,

Original pure DPS companions do more damage,

Original Healing companions heal more.

The new companions are not interesting to me, they don't jump out as good or bad, just kinda meh.

 

Original tank companions as healers will pull agro more often.

 

Original healer companions tanking won't hold agro.

 

Since I've do a ton of Flashpoints when I'm not in a War Zone or when I'm Deployed, this is important to me. I rely on my companions to make up for my characters build and lack of tanking/DPS.

 

When 4.0 was released the first thing I noticed was

the rancid tanking companions. Healer was strong but pulled agro so often I couldn't get it back. They would melt, even their own heals and mine wouldn't surpass the DPS on large pulls and my CC was on CD. It was very noticeable in Star Fortress Heroics. I never used the buff. I didn't even know it was there until a week ago.

 

Companions need gear. They had the proper stat profiles when geared. Now tanks don't have shields, generators, or focus. They can not tank. The attacks are not unique, HK and treek are just the same as every other boring companion. I just use Pierce. Original tank, ranged. Works best for my playstyle. Senya is a healer and can't hold agro, Scourpio is OK but can't hold agro and heals and kinda meh. Lana never impressed me.

 

It's so bad right now, these simpleton casuals don't even get mad when I lay it out. The game is dumbed down to a simple minded casual player.

 

I know I went off on a rant about companions but to solo Flashpoints you need the companions to function properly. Pre-4.0 they were fine, properly geared you could call them over powered. But to call any version of the Post-4.0 companions over powered only highlights what's broken. The player.

Edited January 5, 2016 by knowmyname

[Knockerz]

Yeah, The Black Talon doesn't count, although I bet your mom was so proud of you when you did.

 

WoW ZanyaCross never though I would read a mom comment from you.

[Warlocc]

There is a valid complaint here. Teaming with 3 other players should make it easier than running with just a companion. Instead, the opposite happens.

[tanerb]

There is a valid complaint here. Teaming with 3 other players should make it easier than running with just a companion. Instead, the opposite happens.

 

lol. why? of course it is easier if 3 other players are people who knows how to play. if not it is not easier.

[Warlocc]

lol. why? of course it is easier if 3 other players are people who knows how to play. if not it is not easier.

 

What?

 

Almost every group finder group I've been in has been more frustrating than if they'd all dropped and I'd ran it with just my companion. DPS players are generally useless. Having 3 of them instead of just 2 almost always makes the situation worse.

[PorsaLindahl]

[TACTICAL]

Please stop comparing apples and oranges. Maybe consider what your odds of beating Foundry on a level 15-20 character would have been, before you were the uber leet macho solo wonder of gaming you are now. WITHOUT A HEALER.

 

That's, pretty much, my point in this whole debate. Doing something on a geared 65, even scaled down, is a whole lot easier than doing it on a level 15. Most classes don't even get their interrupt until 18. And how many times do you think most players will use it, other than FP's, while leveling? Probably not at all. I grouped with a level 45 once that didn't have it pulled out.

 

My challenge to Knowmyname was to make a newbie, with a newbie companion and solo some of those same TFP's he's so fond of bragging about soloing. Make a F2P account, that way you don't have all the crons, maxed out presence. No heroic moment to call on. Show those newbies that THEY can solo TFP's.

[tanerb]

What?

 

Almost every group finder group I've been in has been more frustrating than if they'd all dropped and I'd ran it with just my companion. DPS players are generally useless. Having 3 of them instead of just 2 almost always makes the situation worse.

 

I don't disagree. What I am saying is this is normal. it has a different purpose of cooperation and achievement. those people are expected to try a bit harder and learn what to do. After that it will be easier.

[Mirandel]

Knowmyname, you are great! No sarcasm here - not only you truly can solo anything, you are ready to teach others to do so. Skilled and helpful, not a common combination.

 

However, the problem here (as I see it) not with a total inability for anyone to finish some FP (you are a living prove it's not the case) but the bad adaptation of the old content.

 

Skilled payers could always do anything. I remember someone soloing raid (Operations in our terms) content in WoW - a special challenge for the most skilled. However, a regular players would need a good group to do same thing. And here come modern TOR tactical FPs. They were not designed as one. Quite the opposite, it was meant to be played by a holy trinity of an appropriate level. Bosses were scripted for special strategies, trash-mobs place in a way you had to use many different abilities to bring them down and so on. The only tactical we had was very different in that way.

Now, BW changed every precisely designed and balanced for specific set of skills FPs into tacticals just by placing some healing-nods around bosses and boosting players HP, totally ignoring abilities requirements that are still in the core design of every FP.

 

Super-skilled player (like you) obviously did not noticed any difference - you played solo before, you can still do it now. But the regular players are totally lost now - they can not get the group they used to have. In order to do any FP now they have to either learn to solo it (not everyone can or want to learn to do it) OR they have to check the old level of the FP they want to run, form the group of an appropriate level (in chat, the old way) - and only then they can run it. It's very inconvenient, to say the least and has nothing to do with L2P. The system is broken. Yes, you CAN learn how to solo everything if this is your goal, and then you will be able to play with any group by still soloing it just in presence of other players in the instance. But it's not a group work people used to have.

[Zerole]

Tactical flashpoint is not just a clever name. In the absence of a tank and healer, teams must work up some tactics that will work for the group in the flashpoint.

 

I run these daily, and I immediately know when my group is in trouble.

 

1) group does not talk to each other at all

2) someone in the group starts EVERY fight by jumping in and fighting the toughest thing they can find

3) ranged dps sit next to kolto tanks and watch their melee teammates slowly drain down to 0 HPS, never hitting the kolto because the ranged didn't need it

 

 

These are not level based problems. These are bad players, and it's a learn to play issue. Every player in the game can read each and every ability they get understand how they work. Hell, some guy in this thread claims he has a stun on a 3 minute cooldown and it lasts a few seconds, and another stun that heals the target so it's bad on bosses. The first abilities I have no idea. maybe force stasis, but the cooldown is much shorter; and the second is a CC that he clearly has no idea how it works. A level 10 healer has enough abilities to heal a tactical flashpoint. Whether a tank does or not is irrelevant, a tank isn't required.

 

Every player can learn their abilities, regardless of level.

Every player can LOS mobs, regardless of level.

Every player can chat and coordinate, regardless of level.

Every player can assist groupmates by clicking kolto, regardless of level.

[Halinalle]

3) ranged dps sit next to kolto tanks and watch their melee teammates slowly drain down to 0 HPS, never hitting the kolto because the ranged didn't need it

 

Even if they click them it doesn't really help much when you don't have defensive cooldowns available. I've died multiple times because the healing from even two kolto stations isn't enough. Why? Because I didn't click. Only the person who clicks it get most healing. Everyone else only gets HoT.

 

Could also be the fact that many players wait until someone is below 20% hp and then click them. If player at low hp is the one tanking the boss it can get difficult especially if all kolto stations were just used.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Halinalle

[Nippon]

Correct. Tacticals are designed to be completed with any combination of the three roles.

 

Wrong, Specific Tactical's were created to be completed by level 55s while grouping with 60s as well. Instances like Lost island, Kaon, and any instance prior to Introduction of tacticals were not.

 

They have basically made the game a complete mess in an effort to get players playing, Get an instant level 60, Do what you like, subscribe for better stuff.....Blah blah blah...

 

This MMO was not designed to have level 15 players doing level 65 Tacs, they do not have the skills or abilities to effectively play the mode correctly. It was designed to be a progression, gaining the abilities you need to compete at the level, Lost island is a level 50 instance, any player / players without level 50 abilities are going to struggle.

 

Plus the Instances that were released specifically to be Tacs are designed to not require tanks or healers. Every instance prior to the update requires these roles as that is how they were designed, Bolster is a waste of time and quite frankly im tired of players gaming companies wanting everyone and everything in an instant. Its a level based MMO, get back to basics and sort this **** out.

 

Funny thing is, this was all done to encourage Subscribers, because "What a shock" F2P isnt working, Personally GF was fine before KOTFE, and the state it is in now will be the reason I stop subscribing. For the record, GF was not designed to get the perfect group before you enter, it is there so anyone can play with anyone....

 

Of course that only works if players are at similar skill and ability ranges, even gear. But no lets allow player to 1 click 60, then allow players to think that level 190 gear is sufficient for a HM FP at 65......

 

They have broken the game completely by going away from the setup prior to KOTFE, its a simple fix..

 

Make Tacs level 60, with a 0/3 weekly.

Add gear check to 65 HM.

 

Problem solved.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Nippon

[Halinalle]

Wrong, Specific Tactical's were created to be completed by level 55s while grouping with 60s as well. Instances like Lost island, Kaon, and any instance prior to Introduction of tacticals were not.

 

They have basically made the game a complete mess in an effort to get players playing, Get an instant level 60, Do what you like, subscribe for better stuff.....Blah blah blah...

 

This MMO was not designed to have level 15 players doing level 65 Tacs, they do not have the skills or abilities to effectively play the mode correctly. It was designed to be a progression, gaining the abilities you need to compete at the level, Lost island is a level 50 instance, any player / players without level 50 abilities are going to struggle

 

Lost Island and Kaon Under Siege aren't in Group Finder. Reason is that there's no tactical version for those.

 

Yes, some of the bosses even in ones that were designed as tacticals (Ortuno, Jos & Valk) need some tweaking but everything else can be completed by 4 players of any role. Yes, even Taral V and Maelstrom Prison. I weird how long you can play around in Maelstrom Prison second boss fight. I can easily keep fight going while waiting everyone else to run back. I've seen some players following my strategy if I died.

 

- Use stuns and CC

- Know all the abilities your group has and use them

- Don't break CC

- Don't treat for example Kilran like he's just a boss in KDY

- Interrupt, interrupt, interrupt, interrupt (if you have ever completed JK story you should know what it does)

- Don't pull everything. Yes, I know it sometimes works in KDY depending on group.

- Don't use all your defensive cooldowns 3 seconds before pull.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Halinalle

[Unperson]

Every player can learn their abilities, regardless of level.

Every player can LOS mobs, regardless of level.

Every player can chat and coordinate, regardless of level.

Every player can assist groupmates by clicking kolto, regardless of level.

 

Hee hee. I'm reminded of Mandalorian Raiders HM, where you cannot LOS the turrets in the end boss. If tank/dps suck -and if you got there via GF odds are they *will* suck- healer will get mowed down by turret fire that cannot be avoided because they fire thorugh walls, much like Malgus with his Force Lightning and some other "special" encounters I can't remember off the top of my head right now.

 

Ah, good times.

 

FWIW, I generally agree with what you posted. Which is why I bail when people I meet through GF prove they cannot or are unwilling to follow simple instructions. Whether people can learn their abilities, basic tactics and common mechanics isn't in question -- whether they are encouraged and motivated to do so outside of random group instances after 4.0 launched is another matter.

[LordArtemis]

The experience is not consistent IMO.

 

Some tacticals are far too difficult regardless of group makeup, others are far too easy and can be frankly soloed. This is not the kind of experience, IMO, tacticals should provide.

 

It should be reasonably difficult across the board IMO, impossible to solo but a meager challenge regardless of group makeup. They need to make a pass over all of the tacticals to make the experience more consistent.

[Halinalle]

Some tacticals are far too difficult regardless of group makeup, others are far too easy and can be frankly soloed. This is not the kind of experience, IMO, tacticals should provide.

 

I've done all of them in tactical mode. Only Manaan and Blood Hunt can't be completed with group of new players who aren't willing to learn. Core Meltdown can be difficult with new players who won't listen or aren't willing to learn.

 

Some of harder bits Cademimu's trash, bosses in Taral V and Maelstrom Prison etc.

These can be solved by knowing the instance, mechanics and abilities your group has.

 

Some of them are too easy if everyone in group know how to do them: Foundry, Hammer Station, False Emperor, D7, Boarding Party, Battle of Ilum, Battle of Rishi.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Halinalle

[E-Zekiel]

I've done all of them in tactical mode. Only Manaan and Blood Hunt can't be completed with group of new players who aren't willing to learn. Core Meltdown can be difficult with new players who won't listen or aren't willing to learn.

 

Some of harder bits Cademimu's trash, bosses in Taral V and Maelstrom Prison etc.

These can be solved by knowing the instance, mechanics and abilities your group has.

 

Some of them are too easy if everyone in group know how to do them: Foundry, Hammer Station, False Emperor, D7, Boarding Party, Battle of Ilum, Battle of Rishi.

 

 

I wanted to chime in and add that this is what I experience too. only Blood Hunt and Manaan, as far as memory serves (and I have done every tactical on there with randoms and lowbies) are not completable if you have a group of dolts that has zero interest in learning or adapting. Aside from those two, 1-2 people can carry the group to completion, pretty much without exception.

 

With that said, however, both Blood Hunt and Manaan are completable with any variation of levels and roles, provided EVERYBODY APPROACHES THE TACTICAL...TACTICALLY. I finished Blood Hunt while pseudo-tanking on my 40 something sentinel, in a group of mostly 20's and 30's, by taking the time to explain each of the fights, and remind people that if YOUR health gets low, it needs to be YOU to click the kolto, because the person clicking it gets a much larger heal.

 

Only had to pull the second boss twice. I ended up soloing the final boss out of stubbornness, though I am quite certain had I killed myself, we could have gone again with zero deaths.

 

 

*shrugs* It really just comes down to patience. Have patience with your group, give them pointers and strategies where needed. If they are still dumb, then it's their fault. If you don't take the time, then it's your fault.