(Revalation)Heals are not the problem tanks are

[Selout]

... ROFL you still haven't read. Your question doesn't even make sense if you have even skimmed the responses. You cherry-picked part of a response, out of context, to a very specific assertion made by someone. There is no discussion to be had. You don't even understand the conversation and I don't have the stamina to explain it to you in terms you may understand without flat out repeating what I have already said. Edited December 31, 2015 by Selout

[madtycoon]

Infact PvP, and even the past success of its pvp, has had very little to do with how WoW's pvp is. WoW's pvp is thriving because it's WoW, it has zero to do with anything else.

 

If they took SWTOR's pvp system and copied it exactly into their game, WoW's pvp scene will still thrive.

 

It would definately not be thriving as much. Healers are usually the hardest thing to find when people try and make a 3v3 team. Just think if the wow system required you to find another teammate who has to be a tank? Queue a tank for PvE. You get an insta pop in WoW. That's how much of a demand they are in even with cross server and a massive playerbase. The 5v5 bracket is not very active, because you have to find more people. Arenas in general would be a lot less active if 4v4 was their only game mode especially if you were required to have a tank on your team. No 2v2 for people to learn how to play and get introduced to WoW Arena either. No conquest points forcing people into ranked content to get the best pvp gear. People would never have an incentive to leave battlegrounds.

 

Arenas would probably have never even taken off if they made tanks essential to arena comps like they are in SWTOR. Pretty sure that's why they purposely left tanks out of pvp. It's too many roles to balance things around. Too many roles required to make a team.

 

Solo ranked (this game's most active ranked mode) will never be balanced and will never be fun for the majority of the playerbase. You can't balance things around tank/healer/2 dps, 1 healer/3 dps and 4 dps, even if they wanted to. Not with guard in the game in its current form. 50% damage transfer with no cooldown, no duration is too polarizing. It's the best and easiest to use defensive in the game. 4 DPS is never going to be fun for new players. People die too fast to learn anything. It turns people off from ranked PvP. They die too fast, because the game's damage is intended to be soaked by a tank.

 

When a tank who guard swaps isn't in the game mode like most solo ranked matches and most warzones they get replaced by more DPS. You see damage inflation. There is no way to balance this or make it fun when you have to have high amounts of damage to counter guard.

[Evonaut]

sorry i find this solution insufficient to any form of pvp whether it be regs or ranked. One its the sole purpose of a tank to take damage for targets to increase survivability if you'd like to ruin an entire role by taking away their guard in pvp to just not even fix a problem be my guest. You're saying everything would be solved? Well you literally said that without guard you easily 4 shot healers (though i think thats an exaggeration im gonna use your words) do you think making healer vulnerable and dead within seconds solves any sorts of problem for 8v8s or 4v4s? no, it doesnt it just creates the opposite problem your solution is too extreme. sorc heals need a small nerf yto their hps nothing huge honestly because they arent as overpowered as salty unskilled players make them out to be. operative is fine as long as sorc gets a rework to be brought down to their level of hps they both have deserved defensive cool downs though barrier shouldn't be allowed use in acid because well thats suppose to be a time where dps just kill each other off and healing/saving abilities shouldn't be able to work and barrier allows you to resist all outside damage besides the acid itself making you a must have for 4's ranked teams. thats my personal opinion but id be satisfied with just a slight hps rework literally like 200-300 hps lower. After that both the classes do have their deserved defensives and can last pretty long under pressure. Then merc needs a lot of reworking (not to be confused with idiotic buffing to everything) yes to all you pver's (considering i have pve'd before) i know merc both dps and heals is fine in that enviorment so buffing mercs is a scary thing and no to all you reg players who do it casually which is respectful but means you really shouldn't have an opinion on competitive content because you dont no how bad merc is in pvp 4's against an intelligent group of people who can shut them down (yes even with that darn overpowered guard ). Sorry if that comes off as offensive i just find it ignorant if you ahvent experienced teh higher ends of pvp to act like you know what the issues is. now i dontwant to go off on a rant about mercs thats on a forum about guards being overpowered not sorc heals. So i'll leave it at this merc needs a change to koltobomb and their defensive rocket out so they have a getaway any changes in hps that improve should differ from pvp to pve like they did for smash because in one environment the class is fine in the other its just god awful (literally been the worst healing class in pvp since 1.2 and that isn't even an exaggeration though im not looking for some retribution to make us #1 overpowered healer im looking to be viable for 4's) so yada yada i disagree guard isnt the issue its slight reworkings to the healer and maybe some working to tanks damage considering how tanks in dps gear is very popular recently or a reworking on dps (which i think a few classes need a buff if sorcs dont get brought down a notch cuz far too many matches make it to acid where barrier wins the game). thats my preach on how i think you're wrong but i also realize i just wasted 10 minutes because neither my suggestions nor your suggestions will actually be read by a bioware dev that will do anything with this information.

[MotorCityMan]

Sorc heals + guard is OP.

[aristrokratie]

Ap pt, mara, arsenal merc damage is op. Only counter is guard or lolwalk+ bubble

[Selout]

sorry i find this solution insufficient to any form of pvp whether it be regs or ranked. One its the sole purpose of a tank to take damage for targets to increase survivability if you'd like to ruin an entire role by taking away their guard in pvp to just not even fix a problem be my guest. You're saying everything would be solved? Well you literally said that without guard you easily 4 shot healers (though i think thats an exaggeration im gonna use your words) do you think making healer vulnerable and dead within seconds solves any sorts of problem for 8v8s or 4v4s? no, it doesnt it just creates the opposite problem your solution is too extreme. sorc heals need a small nerf yto their hps nothing huge honestly because they arent as overpowered as salty unskilled players make them out to be. operative is fine as long as sorc gets a rework to be brought down to their level of hps they both have deserved defensive cool downs though barrier shouldn't be allowed use in acid because well thats suppose to be a time where dps just kill each other off and healing/saving abilities shouldn't be able to work and barrier allows you to resist all outside damage besides the acid itself making you a must have for 4's ranked teams. thats my personal opinion but id be satisfied with just a slight hps rework literally like 200-300 hps lower. After that both the classes do have their deserved defensives and can last pretty long under pressure. Then merc needs a lot of reworking (not to be confused with idiotic buffing to everything) yes to all you pver's (considering i have pve'd before) i know merc both dps and heals is fine in that enviorment so buffing mercs is a scary thing and no to all you reg players who do it casually which is respectful but means you really shouldn't have an opinion on competitive content because you dont no how bad merc is in pvp 4's against an intelligent group of people who can shut them down (yes even with that darn overpowered guard ). Sorry if that comes off as offensive i just find it ignorant if you ahvent experienced teh higher ends of pvp to act like you know what the issues is. now i dontwant to go off on a rant about mercs thats on a forum about guards being overpowered not sorc heals. So i'll leave it at this merc needs a change to koltobomb and their defensive rocket out so they have a getaway any changes in hps that improve should differ from pvp to pve like they did for smash because in one environment the class is fine in the other its just god awful (literally been the worst healing class in pvp since 1.2 and that isn't even an exaggeration though im not looking for some retribution to make us #1 overpowered healer im looking to be viable for 4's) so yada yada i disagree guard isnt the issue its slight reworkings to the healer and maybe some working to tanks damage considering how tanks in dps gear is very popular recently or a reworking on dps (which i think a few classes need a buff if sorcs dont get brought down a notch cuz far too many matches make it to acid where barrier wins the game). thats my preach on how i think you're wrong but i also realize i just wasted 10 minutes because neither my suggestions nor your suggestions will actually be read by a bioware dev that will do anything with this information.

 

I just read this wall of text. I get the feeling that English isn't your first language so I will move on to, what I hope, is your main point. I think you feel that a change to guard would be too drastic. Only a small change to the healing throughput on sorc heals is warranted. Also, you are making an incorrect assumption that everyone that thinks guard needs to be changed is having an issue with it and must be "noobs". I am here to say, that is not the case. I have zero issue with circumventing the best buff in the game. While I might not be at the tippy top of the ratings, I am certainly in the "high end" part of the specturm while barely even playing. My contention is that it is boring and guards existence in it's current form contributes to the almost non-existent competition in SWTOR PvP.

 

While I agree with your assessment if I were still operating in the paradigm where SWTOR PvP was fun, and compelling; sadly, I don't think that is the case considering the downward trajectory of the competitive scene. As a matter of fact, most people I know don't find it that engaging. I am moving past trying to put a band-aide on a broken philosophy.

 

It seems, most people don't really read on the forums and would prefer to be intellectually lazy in their responses. I know it's a forum, and the bar is pretty low but come on people. You get the game you deserve. If you aren't willing to help progress the scene, then a dying PvP scene is exactly what you deserve. I am not saying you have to accept all of the suggestions here. I am saying, the first step to progress is admitting that there are some fundamentally boring aspects unique to SWTOR arena which drive people away and hinder growth. Move past your emotional responses of trying to protect the status quo for the sake of nostalgia.

 

I think SWTOR PvP has HUGE potential, if it can shed some of these antiquated mechanics. I agree, guard is not hard to circumvent with skillful game play but it isn't reasonable to expect new players to want to stick with the game when confronted with this mindless and unfulfilling mechanic. It's my and others assessment that guard contributes to making the game boring and doesn't really add any meaningful skill in it's current form. Why is there so much resistance to adding skill to a mindless mechanic? Unlike the OP, I don't think guard should be removed. I think it needs to be reworked so all skill levels can enjoy PvP and thus would stick around to populate the competitive PvP scene.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Selout

[Selout]

 

Arenas would probably have never even taken off if they made tanks essential to arena comps like they are in SWTOR. Pretty sure that's why they purposely left tanks out of pvp. It's too many roles to balance things around. Too many roles required to make a team..

 

You have hit on something very important here. With guard, in it's current form, it's essentially impossible to get close to balance (I know a "balanced MMO" is a myth but we should always aspire toward that goal IMO). How can you balance suvivabilty with and without guard? You can't. You either have to assume at all times there will be a competent guard or there won't be. The game gets stuck in this endless cycle of buffing healing, then buffing dmg, to nerfing dmg, then to nerfing healing, and so-on (not specifically in that order, but you get the idea here). I will concede that is the same cycle every other game is in that offers arena (purposefully or not is a debate for another thread). I feel the pendulum swings too far in this game during it's cycle compared to other games.

 

In the case that you assume that there will be a competent guard available at all times, the gameplay really needs something. Tanking is so utterly and completely mindless right now that they would have to make it more appealing to play so there are more tanks available for teams. I have a tank & dps and the tank is played much less but has higher rating, historically, than my mara. There are only a handful of competent tanks that I know of on Harb that stick with tank spec for more than a season.

 

In the case you assume you balance around no guard, then it is pretty evident that having guard, in it's current form, takes the gameplay to a place that is stagnant and boring. It makes it so the majority of people need to run pt/pt/pt/sorc or mara/pt/sintank/sorc (excluding outliers like Foxtrot, Devul, and other top-tier players) lol. That is a whole other level of boring that we aren't even getting in to with this discussion.

 

Again, I am not suggesting we take out guard. I am suggesting more skill be infused in to the best buff in the game or adjusted to reflect the ease by which one can use guard effectively. A static buff, as strong as guard is in it's current form is boring and detracts from the overall gameplay experience. If changes to dmg output and surv need to be tweaked after any change to guard, which they inevitably would need, then so be it. At least the right "knobs" are being turned in the pursuit of balance.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Selout

[Jaggannath]

Your question doesn't even make sense if you have even skimmed the responses.

What response? You haven't responded to any of my questions really. You just keep dodging my questions and telling me what ratings you have seen in World of Warcraft.

 

I don't get why people think a World of Warcraft pvp rating is an educational qualification. It really is not.

 

There is no discussion to be had. You don't even understand the conversation

 

What conversation is that? You're basically just sitting here dodging questions and trying to tell us your very different vision of this game is right based on the fact that it works in World of Warcraft - a very different game with very different variables.

[Selout]

Sigh, since it seems you need special attention to even participate in the conversation without even reading ANY of the thread, I will respond to you point by point since I am feeling charitable this evening.

 

To be honest it seems like you want a game where the dps role is easier and twitch based high burst pvp style is the order of the day. Healers are weak, tanks do less damage than dps and take 25% more damage in PVP along with having no strong CC/guard/survivability/pvp taunt - essentially rendering them useless in pvp. WoW does this style of pvp perfectly.

 

You clearly haven't even read anything I have been saying. I don't want healers to be weak, I do think tanks are doing too much damage in contrast to the insane group survivability they bring. Tanks in PvP in WoW only take 25% more dmg while HOLDING A FLAG IN capture the flag. I never said "no strong CC/guard/surv/pvp taunt." Taunt is fine, cc is fine, guard needs to be reworked and their surv is fine.

 

But that is not why WoW is a lot more financially successful.

 

Infact PvP, and even the past success of its pvp, has had very little to do with how WoW's pvp is. WoW's pvp is thriving because it's WoW, it has zero to do with anything else.

 

If they took SWTOR's pvp system and copied it exactly into their game, WoW's pvp scene will still thrive.

 

It has zero to do with how pvp is in WOW and everything to do with WoW being...well WoW.

 

You couldn't be more incorrect. MANY people quit arena for years due to it's poor implementation who have since returned. How do you account for the resurgence that is currently being enjoyed by all? By your rationale, the participation should have always been stable but it has not. That fact directly refutes your assertion. While the overall subscription numbers have halved themselves with WoD, the PvP participation in arena has doubled according to Holinka from pre-WoD.

 

But back to our point here, it seems to me like you simply do not like the style of PvP in SWTOR and want what WoW has. I think what you want, is WoW's pvp in a Star Wars setting. I think you should go back to WoW because that is exactly what you really like playing.

 

And if WoW's pvp system is so very perfect....what the hell are you doing here?

 

You are partially right here. I do like the style of SWTOR PvP minus one mechanic, guard. This is where you are wrong. I don't want WoW PvP in a Star Wars setting. I like playing both. WoW's PvP system is far from perfect, but it is light years ahead of SWTOR's. I see nothing wrong in emulating success. I am fine with SWTOR having tanks. It's a neat little niche and something I think should remain. That's all it should be though, a niche. Not a mandatory gameplay mechanic for any competitive PvP to take place when the gameplay of a tank is so utterly boring and so few actually enjoy doing it, playing with or against it.

 

Next time, do us both a favor and actually read the thread before interjecting. Most of this you could have inferred if you had only read the thread in it's entirety. Quit being intellectually lazy. If you want to add informed opinions supported by facts, I welcome you. If you are just trolling, well, then I have been successfully trolled.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Selout

[Jaggannath]

Also, you are making an incorrect assumption that everyone that thinks guard needs to be changed is having an issue with it and must be "noobs". I am here to say, that is not the case.

 

If you have difficulty switching targets to one that doesn't have guard on it, what do you expect them to think?

 

 

I have zero issue with circumventing the best buff in the game.

 

Then why are you on the forums ************ so much about tanks and how this game needs to be more like Warcraft?

 

If you dislike SWTOR so much and think WoW is the best, then go play WoW?

 

 

While I might not be at the tippy top of the ratings, I am certainly in the "high end" part of the specturm while barely even playing.

 

I am not sure your performance in pvp, good or bad, qualifies you to make outrageous and drastic suggestions about the game's design that involve copying World Of Warcraft's pvp system.

 

 

My contention is that it is boring and guards existence in it's current form contributes to the almost non-existent competition in SWTOR PvP.

 

If its boring and makes things so easy for you, with such little competition to boot...then why are you not sitting at high ratings and instead complaining about how the game isn't more like WoW on the forums?

 

 

It seems, most people don't really read on the forums and would prefer to be intellectually lazy in their responses.

 

People being in disagreement with you shouldn't be classified as intellectual laziness if you want to do something other than hear yourself voice an opinion.

 

 

I know it's a forum, and the bar is pretty low but come on people. You get the game you deserve. If you aren't willing to help progress the scene,

 

You seem to be under the impression here that there is this major problem here that needs to be fixed. Everyone does not.

 

You like WoW's pvp system and want SWTOR to resemble it. Everyone does not.

 

You want the role of tanks in PvP to be minimized like WoW has done it so that you will have more fun playing your dps toon (not surprised). Everyone does not.

 

All games have minor/major balance issues related to classes/specs under/over-performing. It does not mean you throw out the entire philosophy and copy another completely different game like WoW.

 

Tanks are not the problem, they simply amplify balance issues existing in other classes. Those issues, if they exist, can and should be discussed. But throwing out the trinity concept and the entire philosophy behind the game's pvp that many people across many roles (including tanks) enjoy is a fool's decision.

 

 

Move past your emotional responses of trying to protect the status quo for the sake of nostalgia.

 

How do you know everyone who disagrees with you does so based on "nostalgia"?

 

How do you even know that everyone in disagreement with you thinks the game is 100% fine and agrees with the status quo 100%?

 

People might just disagree with what you have to say only.

 

 

I think SWTOR PvP has HUGE potential, if it can shed some of these antiquated mechanics. I agree, guard is not hard to circumvent with skillful game play but it isn't reasonable to expect new players to want to stick with the game

 

The game has many mechanics that encourage skillful play. Guard is only one of them, you notice it more since you play a dps spec. To remove mechanics simply because it makes skillful play harder is a bad idea and oversimplifies an already simple game to a point where good gameplay isn't rewarded.

 

 

Why is there so much resistance to adding skill to a mindless mechanic?

 

I think you have it the other way around. Removing/nerfing guard would be the path to removing skill from the game rather than maintaining it in its current form to encourage good gameplay in order to score kills and gain advantage.

[Selout]

K, I am officially done with you. Lol. I simply don't have the stamina you require to keep you on the same page. If you can't keep up, I'm sorry. Your analysis of my comments is absolutely insane. You make illogical leaps in almost every one of your counter-points. I wouldn't even know where to begin. It would turn in to an English lesson on reading comprehension.

 

smh

Edited January 1, 2016 by Selout

[Jaggannath]

Tanks in PvP in WoW only take 25% more dmg while HOLDING A FLAG IN capture the flag.

 

This is actually false. That was a very old change which has had several amendments made to it before finally being scrapped in PvP season 1 of WoD. I think you should probably do a little bit of research before you get on these forums to talk about how amazing WoW is.

 

Here let me do your research for you:

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/15682579/#gamesys_intro

 

"Tanks in PvP

 

Tanks now take 25% additional damage while engaged in PvP combat."

 

This change is still active. You can get on your WoW account and try dueling with and without a tank spec and see for yourself.

 

 

I never said "no strong CC/guard/surv/pvp taunt." Taunt is fine, cc is fine, guard needs to be reworked and their surv is fine.

 

You got into a discussion about Tank PvP on these forums while praising the PvP in WoW. You did this without acknowledging the very obvious issues with WoW's take on tank pvp. I am not sure what kind of response you were expecting besides ridicule. Especially since you didn't even do your research about the game you seem to be praising so much.

 

 

 

You couldn't be more incorrect. MANY people quit arena for years due to it's poor implementation who have since returned. How do you account for the resurgence that is currently being enjoyed by all? By your rationale, the participation should have always been stable but it has not. That fact directly refutes your assertion. While the overall subscription numbers have halved themselves with WoD, the PvP participation in arena has doubled according to Holinka from pre-WoD.

 

I really would like to see some official numbers on that one. Without those, this is all just anecdotal observation and conjecture. And you really didn't address how I am incorrect here. Are you really naive enough to assume WoW"s pvp sees so much action is because of the way its designed? WoW enjoys a lot of popularity outside of its pvp scene. Its a well-known title and most people's very first introduction to MMO gaming. Its going to do well regardless of how its pvp is setup.

 

You are kind of just ignoring the very obvious here just to make a point that simply cannot be made.

 

 

I see nothing wrong in emulating success.

 

WoW's success, in and outside of its PvP, cannot be emulated by emulating its pvp system.

 

You need only swing by any of their pvp forums to see the massive range of issues they have compared to the handful of issues with SWTOR pvp. Emulating WoW's pvp system might be the biggest mistake this game ever makes. They don't have the manpower or will to dedicate to the amount of overhaul and the fixes that will follow would involve. Contrary to popular belief, WoW's pvp system does not work well. A conversation with most players who actually play the game (unlike you - as I just proved at the beginning of this post) would demonstrate that.

 

WOW's success cannot be emulated by SWTOR right now. They could have by handling the launch differently and delivering a more finished product and delaying launch, but that time has passed and willing to engage in such a debate only proves naivete on your part.

 

What I am trying to say here "SellOut", is that you don't know what you are talking about.

 

 

I am fine with SWTOR having tanks. It's a neat little niche and something I think should remain. That's all it should be though, a niche. Not a mandatory gameplay mechanic for any competitive PvP to take place

 

Then you basically want tanks out of PvP. When they aren't required anymore they will have no place in PvP of any kind.

 

This goes against what SWTOR pvp is all about. Making every role viable and important. What you want is WoW PvP. I am just confused about why you are here having this argument when what you want is handled well by another title out there that is doing well.

 

Why are you here with SWTOR pvp trying to convince us that it needs to become WOW when the game you want is right there waiting for you?

 

 

when the gameplay of a tank is so utterly boring and so few actually enjoy doing it, playing with or against it.

 

That is your opinion. I don't think you speak for everyone here. That part is blatantly apparent given the strong responses against your line of thinking here.

 

 

Quit being intellectually lazy.

 

Labeling everyone who disagrees with you "intellectually lazy" while finding many more choice words to insult them when engaged in a disagreement/debate is a sign of not only weak debating skills but a weak argument.

 

Not to mention this doesn't speak volumes about your maturity. But then again that ship had already sailed when you got on here saying your argument is more intelligent and holds more merit because you have seen 2500 rating in World of Warcraft.

 

Sometimes, an actual accomplishment in real life should make you realize how utterly useless a past pvp rating in World of Warcraft means in the grand scheme of things much less when you're trying to argue on the internet.

[Selout]

Thank you for adding to my previous point.

 

I was not aware of the tanks taking more dmg though. Thank you for letting me know as tanks in arena are not common.

 

I never claimed to speak for everyone. I claimed to speak for many who don't have the initiative to come and comment on a game they have already given up on.

 

I am really done now. If you want to fiercely defend this sinking ship, be my guest. I for one would rather error on the side of action rather than apathy. /shrug. Oh well. Perhaps the lack of success and declining appeal of SWTOR PvP is exactly why some of you like it. Easier to make a name for yourself with little to no competition. What a wasted opportunity. Perhaps the decrepit state of PvP is exactly what some of you deserve. To those who want things to change, be more vocal so crackpots can't attempt to discredit a rational argument with logical fallacies. Adios.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Selout

[Jaggannath]

I didn't add to your post. I corrected you.

 

You were wrong.

 

If you weren't aware of how tanks worked in WoW pvp you shouldn't have gotten into a thread about SWTOR tank pvp to praise how they're handled in a game you don't know anything about right now.

 

And please don't claim to speak for people not currently engaged in this thread. This is a video game forum, not a Presidential debate.

 

I didn't get on here claiming to speak for the Prince of Wales or the Kingdom of UAE. Anyone can claim to be speaking for anyone here, that holds no importance whatsoever. If your argument cannot stand on its own two legs without tall tales like that then it doesn't deserve to stand.

 

And every game without 5 million subs like WoW isn't a sinking ship. WoW itself, after dropping to 5 mil subs from 10 million in a year has decided to stop publishing sub numbers. Is WoW a sinking ship too now? Please.

 

All action is not good. And everyone doesn't agree with you on this "action". Please don't mistake people's disagreement with your radical ideas as apathy. People disagree with you because they care about the game and don't want to see it ruined because you want to play WoW in a Star Wars setting.

 

People play this game because they want to, if they wanted to play WoW then they would. Its just that everyone does not. Stop trying to turn this into WOW based on your personal preferences about how PvP should be. I am not claiming to speak for anyone but the responses in this thread should make it clear to you that people do not agree with the radical suggestions you have.

 

Everyone does not play SWTOR pvp to "make a name". Some people might just rely on real life achievements for their self-esteem and get on MMOs to basically enjoy themselves. It might just be that your suggestions about how the game should be are seemingly counter-productive to that enjoyment.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Jaggannath