Johnmernstm Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I have a friend who loves science fiction, but has no interest in Star Wars because he believes that it's strictly good-and-evil and there's no room for moral ambiguity. What are some of your guys' arguments against this? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDymond Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 In the movies? He's right. The books get a little murkier, but even then they often backtrack if things get too ambiguous and stray from the 'good-vs-evil' core of the story (such as with Vergere in New Jedi Order, which they backtracked in Legacy of the Force). Best I could say is have him read one of the Villain-POV novels, such as The Old Republic: Deceived or Tarkin. Some of the Dark Horse comics might be good too, such as the Knights of the Old Republic series with Zayne Carrick, since the villains in that one are actually Jedi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swissbob Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) Obsidian's Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords is great. Sure, it has its narrative flaws and its share of black and white, good and bad. But it also has more moral ambiguities and grey areas then you'll find in most other Star Wars stories, and overall is one of my favorites. Good luck in your noble quest. Edited December 28, 2015 by Swissbob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Some characters that your friend may be interested in: Qui-Gon Jinn Revan Asajj Ventress Savage Oppress Pre-Vizla (sp? Death Watch in general) Cad Bane Boba Fett Aura Sing Quinlan Vos Mace Windu Mara Jade Wedge Antilles IG-88 G0-T0 Galen Marak (sp?) Kyle Katarn I could go on, but the point is, there are many Star Wars stories out there that have many 'grey' stories. I mean, the easiest route would be (if you have already seen the TCW) showing him a few arcs from there. Some that they may really like are where Obi-wan fakes his death, the Mortis trilogy, Asajj Ventress and her betrayal, 5's and the chips (lost missions), Yoda's journey (lost missions), Torgruta Slavery arc (forgot the specifics), and etc, etc. Once he is hooked, perhaps dig a bit deeper for what may suit him to keep him hooked. After that, he should be fine with finding his own path. I mean, there are even some episodes of Rebels that may fit. If nothing else, perhaps see if you can track down the game 'Bountyhunter'. Anyone who wouldn't like that game... BLASPHEMY! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setta Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) I have a friend who loves science fiction, but has no interest in Star Wars because he believes that it's strictly good-and-evil and there's no room for moral ambiguity. What are some of your guys' arguments against this? Thanks! The thing is what maybe morally ambiguous for one person, may not be for another so it's hard to say exactly where your friend is, and what he would find as morally ambiguous. For instance some people will always say that 1 life < many lives all day every day. To others it may not be so clear cut. Saving the life of a brilliant Doctor for instance maybe worth more to them, than saving the life of a dozen Joe Shmoes. Some people believe that torture is bad, no and if or buts about it. Others believe in the better safe than sorry policy, regardless if torture works or not (which is another matter altogether.) The government has no problems spying on it's people, and some are ok with it. "If you have nothing to hide then there's no need to worry" or some such bs line like that, which I've heard, others feel it as a violation of their rights and is completely immoral. But really some people have already made up their mind on a lot of these matters already, and the game isn't going to provide your friend with any ground breaking story event that hasn't been done elsewhere before in the real world at some point and time. Though if your friend wants to play a game, where situations like that are constantly thrown at him / her, I would tell your friend to play a Trooper which probably has the most morally ambiguous quests that I've experienced in this game. Since the Trooper is constantly put into a situation where being "good" isn't always in the best interests of the citizens he swore to protect. Even normal planet side stories aren't so clear cut as they would be if you were playing a Sith or a Jedi. Where for those people, they're trained at a young age to act a certain way, and if you're not sure you can just say, well most likely a Sith would kill someone so lulz dark side. Or with a Jedi where you go well even though this guy is a scum bag, who deserves death he did surrender, and revenge is not the Jedi way, so lulz light side. With the none force using classes, especially Trooper and Imperial Agent choices actually are a lot more ambiguous. But sorry to tell you OP, there's no magic bullet to make your friend play the game. At best i would tell them to use the Free to play to complete the first 2 or 3 planets (at least 2 where you get the ship). If they're still not into it at all, then sorry they probably won't be. If they're on the fence then tell them that the story / game gets significantly better as they go along. And if they're hooked already, then whala my job is done. If your friend is set on Empire, then Imperial Agent for sure. Although I feel with that class it takes an extra world or two before the story really starts to pay off, but it pays off in a big way so there's that. Bounty Hunter and Smuggler have more ambiguous choices than Sith or Jedi, but I feel that with money being a big driving factor for a lot of their actions it just doesn't hold a candle to trooper or agent. Then again, maybe your friend like the idea of money vs doing the right thing. Edit : Just realized you weren't talking about the game, but Star Wars in general. It would be a shame to delete all of that, so get him to play the game, and maybe he'll change his mind =P Edited December 28, 2015 by Setta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Some characters that your friend may be interested in: Qui-Gon Jinn Revan Asajj Ventress Savage Oppress Pre-Vizla (sp? Death Watch in general) Cad Bane Boba Fett Aura Sing Quinlan Vos Mace Windu Mara Jade Wedge Antilles IG-88 G0-T0 Galen Marak (sp?) Kyle Katarn I could go on, but the point is, there are many Star Wars stories out there that have many 'grey' stories. I mean, the easiest route would be (if you have already seen the TCW) showing him a few arcs from there. Some that they may really like are where Obi-wan fakes his death, the Mortis trilogy, Asajj Ventress and her betrayal, 5's and the chips (lost missions), Yoda's journey (lost missions), Torgruta Slavery arc (forgot the specifics), and etc, etc. Once he is hooked, perhaps dig a bit deeper for what may suit him to keep him hooked. After that, he should be fine with finding his own path. I mean, there are even some episodes of Rebels that may fit. If nothing else, perhaps see if you can track down the game 'Bountyhunter'. Anyone who wouldn't like that game... BLASPHEMY! :D Why Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jin where they evil at any point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukewarcriminal Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) make him play kotor and kotor2, then read darth bane trilogy. maybe he will change his mind anyway in swtor there are plenty situations where republic is even worse than empire, making really messed up stuff its all shades of grey here Edited December 28, 2015 by lukewarcriminal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Yes the Republic does really ****** things but in the end it was not the one who destroyed planets and killed billions with superweapons. On the grand scheme the Republic is the saint compared to the empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlogg Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 I have a friend who loves science fiction, but has no interest in Star Wars because he believes that it's strictly good-and-evil and there's no room for moral ambiguity. Interestingly that you ask, because I am planning to compile a little book (as a background for my char — supposedly some dissertation he wrote) essentially composed of some key concepts from Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil and On the Genealogy of Morality to the SW universe. I'm glad many people here provided you with some constructive tips! I still think your friend might be disappointed, not primarily because the moralist simplicity, but because StarWars is only science fiction by a very long stretch. It is more Tolkienesque fantasy fiction set in a sci fi decorum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Yes the Republic does really ****** things but in the end it was not the one who destroyed planets and killed billions with superweapons. On the grand scheme the Republic is the saint compared to the empire. Actually, the Old Republic (in swtor) is just as, if not more, morally bankrupt than the Empire. Ones face, is not always a good indicator of what lays within. I mean, for a brief example merely take a look at the Jedi Knights Chapter 1. The Republic developed multiple dooms day devices, during a time of peace. Did the Empire do so as well? Well yes, but all of these are far more brutal than the Empire's super weapons. The Republic invented ways to shake planets apart, to destroy atmospheres, and in general wipe life out on planets multiple times over with different methods. Yes, the Imperials stole them, but they were not responsible for their creation. Imperial super weapons, on the other hand, were not designed to be so clumsy or destructive. They were more precise and economic. For example, the Silencer weapon (SI) could destroy a fleet if used at the right time. Yet even that started to decline in usefulness in SOR. The methods of the Republic however, were not simply up scaled weapons or etc... The Republic created MULTIPLE weapons to destroy entire worlds, while the Empire developed weapons to combat military assets. Just on Earth, how much is actually military, even if it was engulfed in war? Many, many civilian casualties it would be... Nor are they blemish free in the other categories. Corruption, injustice, and brutality both sides have. It is merely the face they put out that differs, once you get down to it. The Sith Empire does not hides its face, what it stands for, and its goals. The Republic hides behind political talk, schemes, and espionage. At the very BEST they are equal in morality. At worse, the Republic is in the wrong. Yes, at first glance the SE is by far more evil. Except, the SE doesn't hide its acts, while the Republic conceals a great deal of things. With all of it out in the open, the Republic has done things that make Dark Council members blush! In regards to Mace Windu and Qui-gin Jinn. Mace Windu is an example of a defender of the light who constantly has to battle his inner turmoil and balance both of his dark, and light sides. Shatterpoint I believe goes into him rather well. Qui-gon Jinn on the other hand, is a great example of a 'grey jedi', much like Jolee Bindo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Okay let me put it this way because you say that you have no problem with killing billions and you do it with stolen super weapons or not does that makes you better then the ones who do not admit that they are capable of genocide and well do not kill billions of people? In the end the empire killed billions not the Republic. The fact that they had the intention is one thing but what is worse having the intention of killing someone or actually going for and killing someone. I can say I am a jerk or a troll but it does not make me less worse then someone that hides the fact that he is a jerk or a troll we both do harm either way. Admitting that you are evil does not make you better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenceo Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Okay let me put it this way because you say that you have no problem with killing billions and you do it with stolen super weapons or not does that makes you better then the ones who do not admit that they are capable of genocide and well do not kill billions of people? In the end the empire killed billions not the Republic. The fact that they had the intention is one thing but what is worse having the intention of killing someone or actually going for and killing someone. I can say I am a jerk or a troll but it does not make me less worse then someone that hides the fact that he is a jerk or a troll we both do harm either way. Admitting that you are evil does not make you better. Except what do you think they would of done with such weapons? One does not spend billions of credits to make paper weights... Merely because they were stolen and then destroyed, does not excuse the Republic. To some, they may even hold the Republic responsible for all of the deaths since they are the creators of such. That is, of course, a bit silly. Intention vs Action is merely a matter of timing. I could swing an axe at someone intent on killing them, but miss by an inch. If I was then charged for attempted murder, would they care that I missed, instead of only taking off, say, an arm? The victim may, yes, but the mere fact that the swing was meant to kill, much like these super weapons were, means that it would be one and the same, to a degree. (Not going to get into legal jargon here... its a simple example people!) As for the visible vs invisible, to a degree it doesn't effect it, but to a degree, it actually does. Here is a decent example: One day a frog was walking down the river bank and wanted to get to the other side to visit his girlfriend frog. He normally hopped a ride on a floating lily pad or floating leaf strong enough for his weight, but today there were none in sight. Suddenly a snake appears and says to him, “Hey frog buddy I’ll take you across the river. I know you want to go visit your girl plus I’m going that way anyway.” The frog knew the snakes reputation so he said, “Heck no!, I’ll wait on a lily pad.” Time went by, the snake continued to persist and persuade and finally convinced the frog to ride on his back across the river. “Okay remember you said you wouldn’t bite me.” He says as he gets on the snakes back and off they go across the river. They were about half way across and they you heard the frog scream out, “Arrrrrgggggh you bit me! You said, you said you woudn’t bite me!”Then the snake said, “I’m a snake that’s what I do.” This is essentially the SE. You know what they are, and they do not hide what they are. Yet, people may fall for a trick. The Republic on the other hand, would be akin to if the frog had betrayed the snake. They act all innocent, they act as if they are the good guys, but the fact is, neither faction is morally better than the other. The Sith hold sway, as do the Jedi, yes. But they are by far out weighed by the amount of regular citizens. Heck, the Sith hold more sway over the Empire than the Jedi the Republic. Yet, the Republic has committed acts just as bad as the Sith Empire. Considering the fact that they put up a front of being in the 'right' all the time, that does in fact make it at least slightly worse. What is worse?: "I am going to kill you." *kills you* "Everything is going to be alright." *Kills you when you lower your guard* Both equate to the same result, you being dead. But which is more sinister? The snake that says they are a snake... Or the snake disguised as a frog? The mere fact that the Republic attempts to put up a facade, much more than the SE, does damage them more, at least in the public eye, than if they openly stated, "Yeah, were going to do this." which still would be terrible for PR. By the mere acts, they are equal or about with what they have done. However, if one was to study their actions and look at it from a citizens point of view, the Republic is a bit more on the sinister side. Ofc, opinions will vary. I mean, war is war, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukewarcriminal Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 Yes the Republic does really ****** things but in the end it was not the one who destroyed planets and killed billions with superweapons. On the grand scheme the Republic is the saint compared to the empire. like who? Malak? he wasnt part of the empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 (edited) like who? Malak? he wasnt part of the empire. Yeah he was did you forgot how he became Darth Malak and who sent him against the Republic? But not him only but also Darth Angral. Also the sith emperor. Also the siege of Coruscant. Did the Republic ever destroyed whole planets because they just wanted to? Did they ever done a genocide because they hated those people or because I just wanted to? Did they ever killed billions of innocents? Edited December 29, 2015 by adormitul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raandomname Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Ofc Star Wars will never be as morally ambiguous as some other franchises, but there are actually pretty many works in SW that cover various moral grey-zones. Ill go through some common themes below. Heroes on both sides: - Generally Zahn's novels such as the Thrawn Trilogy and Choices of One do a great job of showing good people on the Empire's side Duty vs morality/friendship/love: - Allegience and other works from the perspective of Imperials who are ordered to go against their morals - the Legacy of the Force series also has quite a bit of this, although it is pretty bad overall Good guys *********** up: - the backstories of Jango Fett and General Grievous, as well as the Sith Holocaust are good examples of the Republic and Jedi commiting large atrocities - The Battle of Jabiim Clone Wars Comic Then there is the Star Wars Legacy comic series that covers most of these themes in one way or another and aside from that is an amazing read imho. Id assume that many of the books and comics about Boba Fett are pretty grey to, but I havent read any of them yet, so I cant really comment on them. Finally, this list wouldnt be complete without mentioning the Republic Commando novels that are almost provocative in their discussion of the morally ambiguous, although they are generally hated by most of the SW-community. Of course, it would help if you could give some examples of Sci Fi that your friend does like, but personaly Id recommend starting with one of Zahn's novels or Star Wars Legacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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