The good, the bad and the ugly

[SaibotLiu]

I played SWG from Day-2 until the day the lights went out. I specifically pointed out that this was not meant as a direct A=B situation. My concern, as I clearly stated was with the decision making process (to radically alter a game post-launch and turn it into something that is was not).

 

You're still comparing the NGE to SWTOR lol. Just stop. The game has not been "radically altered" since launch, when you compare it to something that was as radical as the NGE. By continuing to draw that comparison, you may actually lose support for what you're saying from people who are aware of the massive difference between the two circumstances.

 

SWTOR is still relatively the same as it was day one with the vanilla experience. EXP got boosted, some thing were made easier, some mechanics were altered, but the game is still there, the content is still there.

 

Most MMO's have lost a lot more of their original design then KOTR has, you guys have it pretty easy on that front.

[Eltohan]

SWTOR is still relatively the same as it was day one with the vanilla experience. EXP got boosted, some thing were made easier, some mechanics were altered, but the game is still there, the content is still there.

 

What content?

[Xo-Lara]

WhileI agree with the OP on some points, I disagree with the "REGULATE THE ECONOMY NAOW SO I CAN HAZ STUFZEZ I WANTZEZ CHEAPZEZ!!!!1111!!!!" posts from Xo-Lara (sorry, but that how they come off to me, no matter how you try to ponificate...)

 

Disagree if you like. It's fine since I have no particular need to convince you one way or another. But I'm not responsible for the hyperbole you come up with on your own. I took the time to actually work out a response and use grammar, so I know I said nothing like the above. However, what you call pontificating is me showing enough respect to someone reading my post to actually answer why I say something. I take the fact that someone may read my reasons serious enough to give an actual explanation. Skip them if they bother you.

 

Video game economies aren't the same as real life economies. In real life, we don't print currency endlessly like we do in video games. Also what do you mean by "When inflation runs rampant?" Inflation never runs rampant and "too much money being dumped on the system" is certainly not the cause of inflation (in real life). Inflation is a reflection of economic trends, and banks attempt to manage it by keeping it down to about 1-2%, though I'm not really sure if it's any of their business to do that. They just interfere because they can. Money systems maintain themselves. The only reason people interfere is so that those systems are maintained the way they want them.

 

Also, economics can be learned in a weekend. This is why I'm so surprised by the sheer number of people in the world who know absolutely nothing about such a simple subject, which is so easy to grasp and understand.

 

I could waste time arguing over whether points in the above post are wrong or not but never mind. I doubt you care to read that any more than I feel like continuing to debate. You can look up pictures of German children playing with useless stacks of legal tender money after the world war or counterfeit money whenever you have some time to waste.

 

Here's the point I'm trying to make, manipulation is exactly the issue. This is why money systems don't regulate themselves because there is always someone manipulating them and yes they can be manipulated in virtual systems as well thus ruining the economy for other players. It really doesn't matter what tips the scales once they are tipped which, for instance, is why the credit sellers are a problem.

 

Nevertheless, regardless of why it is, the invisible hand model of the economic situation balancing itself out is rarely allowed to work the way it should thus meaning devs have to try to counterbalance the manipulation. There is already precedent for regulating. Credit sinks are a form of economy regulation case you are imagining in game tax men or something. So, what they could go to a university for is new ideas.

 

However, agree or disagree the last thing I need is a endless forum debate on a matter of opinion. Whether I convince you or not the quality of everyone's day will remain the same. So I'll agree to disagree.

[Shfinky]

Op as an epic read. Nothing there to disagree with. I fear your post was a entire waste of time though.

 

Swtor has just got itself half a million new players off the back of the new SW movie. Whenever i think of the team at Bioware in charge of Swtor i picture them sat around a meeting table, tweeking their pointy moustaches, and cackling like a mob of evil villains.

All those new subs and FTPs make KOTFE look like the biggest success in gaming history!

[Ghisallo]

Half a million? Where did that number come from? The last I checked was they saw a 30% increase in subscribers. When you look at the fact that they admitted that they "stabilized at under 500k" subs after the f2p transition in 2013, best case scenario is around 100k. Since they have slowly lost subscriptions over the last 2 years (as evidenced by declining subscription revenue as noted in EA financial reports), it is probably less than even that number.

 

It's pretty telling when EA, at an earnings call says that the game increased subscriptions by 30% BUT when they are talking about the games contribuing to the profits of the segment this game contributes to, the game is not among those mentioned as a profit driver.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Princess_Chibi]

Disagree if you like. It's fine since I have no particular need to convince you one way or another. But I'm not responsible for the hyperbole you come up with on your own. I took the time to actually work out a response and use grammar, so I know I said nothing like the above. However, what you call pontificating is me showing enough respect to someone reading my post to actually answer why I say something. I take the fact that someone may read my reasons serious enough to give an actual explanation. Skip them if they bother you.

 

 

 

I could waste time arguing over whether points in the above post are wrong or not but never mind. I doubt you care to read that any more than I feel like continuing to debate. You can look up pictures of German children playing with useless stacks of legal tender money after the world war or counterfeit money whenever you have some time to waste.

 

Here's the point I'm trying to make, manipulation is exactly the issue. This is why money systems don't regulate themselves because there is always someone manipulating them and yes they can be manipulated in virtual systems as well thus ruining the economy for other players. It really doesn't matter what tips the scales once they are tipped which, for instance, is why the credit sellers are a problem.

 

Nevertheless, regardless of why it is, the invisible hand model of the economic situation balancing itself out is rarely allowed to work the way it should thus meaning devs have to try to counterbalance the manipulation. There is already precedent for regulating. Credit sinks are a form of economy regulation case you are imagining in game tax men or something. So, what they could go to a university for is new ideas.

 

However, agree or disagree the last thing I need is a endless forum debate on a matter of opinion. Whether I convince you or not the quality of everyone's day will remain the same. So I'll agree to disagree.

 

Xo-Lara makes some excellent points. And for the record, Economics CANNOT be learned in a weekend. Anyone who would make such a baseless hyperbolic statement so far outside the realm of common sense is trolling. To Xo's point, economics are problematic because the system is constantly manipulated by self-interested groups for personal gain (i.e. politicians, judges and executives).

 

SWTOR economics are little different in that the developers largely don't seem to care about the health and well-being of the economy beyond buying/duping credits, there are no pricing or common sense financial controls to prevent abuse or predatory practices and even basic support such as mobile apps for GTN seems to be beyond this company's capabilities.

 

In real-world economics, we absolutely do print new money whenever we don't feel like paying our dues; it's called national debt. The US owes China how many billions now? I believe the CBO's last report was the world is $14 Trillion in debt. Basic kindergarten math; if Susie has 2 apples, and Jake takes 3 of Susie's apples, how many apples does Susie have? The smart children answer it's not possible as you can't take what Susie doesn't have, politicians and opportunists answer -1, and Susie should charge interest. You can't fail to have an amount of money exceeding the amount ever printed into existence, yet we do, real-world economics; and it's because the amount "printed into existence" is imaginary, arbitrary and can be increased whenever one particular nation magically wishes.

 

Credits in SWTOR work surprisingly close to that method of generation. Missions print credits all day long; the sinks never deduct enough. And there's NEVER a finite amount in circulation at any given point. Those are EVE MMORPG type economics; and do you honestly think BW is capable of such highly technical, detailed and adaptive applied economics when not screwing up a crafting profession by removing its ability to generate revenue seems too far beyond them?

Edited December 27, 2015 by Princess_Chibi

[adormitul]

I think he means not subscribed players.

[Ghisallo]

I think he means not subscribed players.

 

Then it's a complete guess because, to my knowledge, they have not noted anything simply about "new accounts", only subscriptions. That said why would half a million new players come to a game where they can't play the latest content, since KotFE requires a subscription? Even with the Star Wars IP behind this game, it is illogical. Even if it wasn't illogical accounts mean nothing to EA, what matters is revenue and even with the 30% increase in subscriptions they could not actually speak about this game contributing to financial growth in the segment it occupies.

 

If anything, between that, the lack of communication over all, and the Barneyesque " I love you, you love me" of the last Live Stream... I would say the SWTOR staff is actually nervous.

[Munithe]

if Susie has 2 apples, and Jake takes 3 of Susie's apples, how many apples does Susie have?

That's not how it works. Susie lends Jake 2 apples on the basis that Jake is going to use those apples to grow an apple tree, and when he does, Susie will have 3 apples, because Susie is charging interest in the form of an apple. This means Susie can afford to spend the 3 apples she expects to recieve from Jake in future, because Jake, like most people, wants to pay his debts.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Munithe

[Princess_Chibi]

That's not how it works. Susie lends Jake 2 apples on the basis that Jake is going to use those apples to grow an apple tree, and when he does, Susie will have 3 apples, because Susie is charging interest in the form of an apple. This means Susie can afford to spend the 3 apples she expects to recieve from Jake in future, because Jake, like most people, wants to pay his debts.

 

Again, that's financial speculation, not sound mathematics. Susie isn't going to give Jake all she has "and more" hoping for a better return, nor can Jake promise his "future" apple tree that you're stuck on won't get struck by lightning and die.

 

You can't take from Susie what Susie doesn't have. Trying to do so is unethical and riddled with assumptions (hence why speculating in financial markets beyond minimum returns leads to jail time; unless you're a big bank or a mortgage broker selling inflated loans ~2008).

 

As I said in my original statement, a smart kindergartener says you can't take what Susie doesn't have, politicians and self-serving opportunists try to take Susie's 2 apples, the dress she's wearing, her parents house and anything else they can get, just because they can. Ethics matter, common sense as well. Interest is inherently unethical; that's why someone's always getting sued, investigated or put on the news for financial malfeasance. People are also inherently corrupt, which is why very rarely does anyone actually go to jail or get penalized for such poor behavior. See AIG, Bank of America, etc.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Princess_Chibi

[Shwarzchild]

The good: the story aspect in terms of quality has improved. Priority transport to heroic areas. Heroics replacing daily zones. Crafting is in a better place. Companions are in a better place. The interfece is in a better place, and the ability to save your key binds is great. There finally is a rewards program in place. There is a pvp map in the works finally.

 

The bad: the games difficulty is far too low. The reverse side of companions being able to still play the game for the player, and the lack of real substance to companions makes them cardboard cut outs instead of impactful pieces of your characters puzzle. The flashpoint system is not working as intended in that the level included is far too large. The rewards program yields rewards that seem too far spaced out and I hope that they aren't passed off as anything but free extras instead of actual content.

 

The ugly: the philosophical change to gearing I.e 224 gear and nightmare modes. The bugs that aren't being addressed until months down the road. Broken events. The directionless feeling for end game. the lack of development on new end game operations and flashpoints. The lack of a road map for the coming year. Negative articles like the game informed review regarding the expansion.

[SaibotLiu]

That's not how it works. Susie lends Jake 2 apples on the basis that Jake is going to use those apples to grow an apple tree, and when he does, Susie will have 3 apples, because Susie is charging interest in the form of an apple. This means Susie can afford to spend the 3 apples she expects to recieve from Jake in future, because Jake, like most people, wants to pay his debts.

 

lol Another great example of why you don't master "economics" in a weekend.

 

Also, EVE has economists working directly for them to manage their in game economy, and it hasn't seemed to be detrimental to the game, seeing as how they have 500,000+ active subscribers on a premium game.

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eve-online-meet-man-controlling-18-million-space-economy-1447437

 

There is very much a place for this in MMO's, as it can only add to the end game (playing the economy is a large part of the end game in many MMO's, the more dynamic the better). I would assume from your comments that SWTOR's very limited imitation of one matches your understanding of economics. Which may appear safe but it is by no means an exhaustive study of economics nor is it very interesting.

 

Knowing how the pieces move in chess is not the same as being a chess Grandmaster. Even Grandmasters in chess would admit there is much they don't know about the game, and likely never will, otherwise they'd never lose. It is the same, this is why we continue to study "economics".

[TikkyLightmaker]

Casual players are by definition transient. Understand that with your current business model these "casual" players will unsubscribe, wait a year and then come back and binge-watch; only to unsubscribe again. They will not stick around for the long haul.

 

Your definition of casual is wrong. A casual by definition is not a transient - a casual is by definition, someone that does not min/max their gear and squeeze every ounce of potential from everything to get the absolute best performance. Someone who doesn't put a huge effort in doing group content. If they're guilded, it's most likely for enjoying the online company of other players. Most of those players are here for a good long haul.

 

A transient can be, by definition, casual, but a casual in definitely not, by definition, transient. A transient player is a transient player. A casual player is a casual player. There's a difference between them, regardless of whether or not you want to see it.

 

EDIT: I really really need to add: that's the only issue i have with the post - and it's semantics. I did enjoy the read, and agree with much (most, really) of what you wrote.

Edited December 27, 2015 by TikkyLightmaker

[ekwalizer]

Disagree if you like. It's fine since I have no particular need to convince you one way or another. But I'm not responsible for the hyperbole you come up with on your own. I took the time to actually work out a response and use grammar, so I know I said nothing like the above. However, what you call pontificating is me showing enough respect to someone reading my post to actually answer why I say something. I take the fact that someone may read my reasons serious enough to give an actual explanation. Skip them if they bother you.

 

I could waste time arguing over whether points in the above post are wrong or not but never mind. I doubt you care to read that any more than I feel like continuing to debate. You can look up pictures of German children playing with useless stacks of legal tender money after the world war or counterfeit money whenever you have some time to waste.

 

Here's the point I'm trying to make, manipulation is exactly the issue. This is why money systems don't regulate themselves because there is always someone manipulating them and yes they can be manipulated in virtual systems as well thus ruining the economy for other players. It really doesn't matter what tips the scales once they are tipped which, for instance, is why the credit sellers are a problem.

 

Nevertheless, regardless of why it is, the invisible hand model of the economic situation balancing itself out is rarely allowed to work the way it should thus meaning devs have to try to counterbalance the manipulation. There is already precedent for regulating. Credit sinks are a form of economy regulation case you are imagining in game tax men or something. So, what they could go to a university for is new ideas.

 

However, agree or disagree the last thing I need is a endless forum debate on a matter of opinion. Whether I convince you or not the quality of everyone's day will remain the same. So I'll agree to disagree.

 

I understand your points, but the GTN is not the issue. Players will always seek to make the best profit on their items. The issue is that there are a finite amount of credit sinks in this game. The game "prints" unlimited credits; with nearly every kill, credits are generated.

 

Over time, the amount of credits in circulation devalues every credit compared to the value each credit had on day-1 of early access.

 

Rakata level barrels/hilts sold on the GTN for about 1M cr back in 1,x. Now 216 barrels and hilts sell for about 2M cr on the GTN. 216 would actually be Columi level - so I will edit this later after I log in and check 220 level stuff on the GTN. The point is, after 4 years we aren't really doing too badly in the inflation department.

[ekwalizer]

Your definition of casual is wrong. A casual by definition is not a transient - a casual is by definition, someone that does not min/max their gear and squeeze every ounce of potential from everything to get the absolute best performance. Someone who doesn't put a huge effort in doing group content. If they're guilded, it's most likely for enjoying the online company of other players. Most of those players are here for a good long haul.

 

A transient can be, by definition, casual, but a casual in definitely not, by definition, transient. A transient player is a transient player. A casual player is a casual player. There's a difference between them, regardless of whether or not you want to see it.

 

EDIT: I really really need to add: that's the only issue i have with the post - and it's semantics. I did enjoy the read, and agree with much (most, really) of what you wrote.

 

That's fair. My definition of casual is someone that subs for a while, and moves on to another game. Although I concede that the definition you provided is more accurate.

[Xo-Lara]

I understand your points, but the GTN is not the issue. Players will always seek to make the best profit on their items. The issue is that there are a finite amount of credit sinks in this game. The game "prints" unlimited credits; with nearly every kill, credits are generated.

 

Over time, the amount of credits in circulation devalues every credit compared to the value each credit had on day-1 of early access.

 

Rakata level barrels/hilts sold on the GTN for about 1M cr back in 1,x. Now 216 barrels and hilts sell for about 2M cr on the GTN. 216 would actually be Columi level - so I will edit this later after I log in and check 220 level stuff on the GTN. The point is, after 4 years we aren't really doing too badly in the inflation department.

 

True, the GTN is not the issue itself but it's really the only place where credits matter. However, I'm not used to watching the price trends for items that start in the 2 mil range. The ones I watch tend to only be several hundreds of thousands or less. Those have begun to rise despite some items still being as easily available as in the past, but I'll concede that a variety of factors can contribute to that.

 

One of the reasons I suggest working with a university is because people who work with real economies probably have better tools at their disposal for tracking and analyzing the data for such things.

[ekwalizer]

True, the GTN is not the issue itself but it's really the only place where credits matter. However, I'm not used to watching the price trends for items that start in the 2 mil range. The ones I watch tend to only be several hundreds of thousands or less. Those have begun to rise despite some items still being as easily available as in the past, but I'll concede that a variety of factors can contribute to that.

 

One of the reasons I suggest working with a university is because people who work with real economies probably have better tools at their disposal for tracking and analyzing the data for such things.

 

The game doesn't need a lesson in Ecomonics, the players do. The price someone lists an item for isn't necessarily the price it sells for. This game has a free market economy. There is NO item on the GTN that anyone "needs". The GTN is a flea market for things people "want".

 

Someone might think they *need* that cool new mount, but they don't need it; they want it. The same holds true for any other item on the GTN. Further, every item on the GTN is obtainable through other means. The GTN is a convenience, and people pay for convenience.

 

I would however advocate removing the decimal places in the Credits Per Unit field of the GTN. We cannot spend a fraction of a credit. The decimal places combined with sheer player laziness has contributed to people spending much more than they wanted to spend for certain items.

[ekwalizer]

You're still comparing the NGE to SWTOR lol. Just stop. The game has not been "radically altered" since launch, when you compare it to something that was as radical as the NGE. By continuing to draw that comparison, you may actually lose support for what you're saying from people who are aware of the massive difference between the two circumstances.

 

SWTOR is still relatively the same as it was day one with the vanilla experience. EXP got boosted, some thing were made easier, some mechanics were altered, but the game is still there, the content is still there.

 

Most MMO's have lost a lot more of their original design then KOTR has, you guys have it pretty easy on that front.

 

Is that so? Since you insist that I make this an A=B comparison:

 

NGE changes:

Reduction of 32 professions to 9 (actually 12 because there were 4 trader professions). So we go from 32 down to 12. 32:12 = 16:6 = 8:3 = ~2.66:1. And let's be real dayum honest about those professions. Most often you would find cookie cutter builds. So consolidating 32 down to 12 made a lot of sense. Yeah, some folks had the *** with it, because their profession went away entirely but in all honesty how many Master Weaponsmith/MSmugs were someone's main toon? No the reality was, for most Smugglers, MSmug, MPist, TKM. How many Ranger/Squadleaders did you run into? None. Yes, there was a lot of flavor and diversity in professions, but the reality was that the overwhelming majority of players had one of a handful of "specs". Most Bounty Hunters were MBH/M<insert ranged profession>. Most commandos were either MCDO/MSmug or MCDO/TKM. There wasn't nearly as much diversity as we wanted to believe.

 

Combat mechanics overhaul. Which actually improved the game. My MBH no longer had to change toolbars every time he changed weapons, all abilities worked regardless of weapon. This was actually a major improvement.

Not having to train for most abilities.

 

We still had all content (if by "content" you mean spinning lairs), other than the village. That is it, the village was the only content removed. Period, Dot, End of discussion.

 

"But but but the Jedi grind ..... " In the CU was nothing compared to pre-Cu ... and even with that experiences varied.

 

And it actually gave a story to follow.

 

That's it, those were the NGE changes.

 

4.0 Changes:

Continuation from the decline from 8 stories to 1. 8:1 = 8:1. So we have gone from 8 unique stories, basically down to the Jedi Knight story. 8:1 is bigger than 2.66:1.

 

Combat mechanics did change in many ways, ranging from raid boss fight simplification to not having to train for most abilities to level sync (Hey! I'm going to go to Kashyyyk at CL 10!), to dumbing down all Fps to Solo mode (and I don't mean Han). Or how about being practically unkillable with a healing companion?

 

There are plenty of similarities there. You can choose to ignore them to your heart's content. Truth be told people's biggest heartburn with the NGE was that it came 2 weeks after a paid expansion.

Edited December 28, 2015 by ekwalizer

[SaibotLiu]

Is that so?

 

Errr what? All the original 8 classes stories are still there, you can still play them. What they've added on in an expansion afterwards is irrelevant to the matter, were talking about changing the core game here, ie, what the NGE did. Try playing a Master Ranger in the NGE and tell me how much success you had. Not possible. Try playing the agent story here in KOTR and let's see if you have any success at all, oh wait...the class quests are still there? I'll be damned...it really isn't the same thing is it?

 

For them to even approach doing what the NGE did to this game, they'd have to make it an FPS, rename it to Smugglers of the Old Republic, and just give you the smuggler class mission and maybe one Boba Fett raid and tell you to shut up.

 

Not...the...same...thing.

 

Did you seriously just use some kinda math equation to rationalize your thoughts? That's hilarious. I could sit here and talk about SWG all day, you're wrong about BH's by the way, most BH's were 3XXX + Melee profession because that was the most effective way to take out player Jedi, which is what most player BH were actually doing.

 

If you're talking about the CU, nobody even remembers the CU.

 

But I'm not really here to talk about SWG, which why it'd be nice if you could stop making this ridiculous comparison. Thanks.

Edited December 28, 2015 by SaibotLiu

[Isnogut]

There has been a great volume of discussions since the release of Knights of the Fallen Empire (KotFE) regarding the state of the game. I would like to capture many aspects of the game, not exclusive to FE, in terms of both the positive and the negative. I will attempt to structure this in to blocks containing both good and bad along with recommendations for improvement. If you choose to participate in this thread, please keep it civil. Rather than simply complaining, lets provide them with feedback that is structured in terms of positive, negative and recommendations for improvement.

 

What you (Bioware) have done is taken a AAA MMORPG that was in the top 10 earning MMORPGs in 2014 with a revenue over $100,000,000 and dramatically altered it away from what it is supposed to be at its core. This is an MMORPG, it did not make over $100M in 2014 as a SPRPG with multiplayer options.

 

The first at-large recommendation I can make pertains to staffing. Hire interns. Battle.net .... Blizzard ... ya know World of Warcraft, they use interns to this day. Star Wars Galaxies (SWG) used interns for years to augment their paid development staff. As free labor it is good for you and it is good for them to gain experience in game design. With only a skeleton crew of paid staff, SWG was able to produce content every six weeks from 2007 until well into 2011; thanks to the use of interns. Specifically, I mean for bug bashing and to assist with developmental coding. Not to tinker with the economy. Also, a poster below believes that there could be a large cost associated with hiring interns, but I contend that there are many vacant seats in this game's studio so no new machines or office expansion would be required. OJT is much more cost effective than a formalized training pipeline.

 

The second at-large recommendation I will make is that you learn from the mistakes of others and try to not duplicate said mistakes - because you are currently doing exactly that. Understand, Bioware, that you are in fact fallible. Not every “good idea” is actually a good idea. The "good idea fairy" should be swatted with a hammer 99% of the time. It is not my desire to demonize anyone, I firmly believe that the entire SWTOR team wants what is best for the game. However, wanting what is best and doing what is best are often not the same thing.

 

 

 

While that example has nothing to do with the gaming industry, it is arguably the most famous "big business" blunder in recorded history.

 

The next example, however, is from the gaming industry. The Star Wars Galaxies "New Game Enhancements" (NGE). Quite frankly, the parallels between the NGE and all the changes made with KotFE are disturbing. I'm not referring to direct A=B comparison, but rather the similarities in the decision making process and utter lack of communication. Allow me to go one step further and clarify that this is NOT SWTOR'S NGE. I am using the NGE as an example of a major studio blunder.

 

I was under the impression that this event in the game development world was not forgotten; in fact this should be taught to all game programmers under the "things never to do category". In fact, SOE executives were even involved in a game developers "rant" session at the first annual MMOG rant panel in Austin Texas, in 2005 just two months prior to the NGE's release where exactly what they did was foreshadowed as a major "no no". MMO consultant Jessica Mulligan unleashed a torrent of common sense directed at everyone in participation:

 

 

Linda Carlson, director of global community relations at Sony Online Entertainment, had this to say about the NGE in 2013:

 

The three quotes above basically boil down to one theme, do not make a lot of major changes all at once, or a brand altering change ever. Much of the current hate, probably wouldn't exist if all of the changes with 4.0 had been phased in over time. Look at all the changes made between 1.0 and 3.x.

 

The third recommendation I will make is to ensure you are asking the right questions when relying on your "metrics" to provide the answers. To this I mean:

 

• Of course your metrics will indicate that players spend most of their time doing class missions when you run a six month 12x experience point boost for class missions.
  
• Of course your metrics will indicate a smaller PvP population when you have all but ignored PvP for years on end. Three new full team PvP arenas since the game went live in December 2011. That is on average one new arena every 16 months.
  
• Of course your metrics will indicate that most players do not engage in Nightmade Mode Operations. NiMs were never intended for "general consumption".
  

 

Final (general) recommendation: Never push a major update/expansion without significant beta testing by actual players. A lot of the issues presented by KotFE would have been identified through comprehensive testing.

 

A few simple requests up front:

Please stop pandering to "new and returning" players. New and returning players have not been paying your bills for the last four years. Casual players are by definition transient. Understand that with your current business model these "casual" players will unsubscribe, wait a year and then come back and binge-watch; only to unsubscribe again. They will not stick around for the long haul. If they were going to stick around, they would have already done that. KotFE pales in comparison to the original eight stories - and those weren't enough to keep them here. Returning players prove this theory by their very status of "returning".

 

Please stop making companions that do not speak Basic. If you will not do this, give us the option to mute that companion.

 

Please stop overwriting our key bindings with your key bindings. If I have a key already bound, leave it alone. There should be no possibility for multiple actions to be bound to a single key-stroke. When we (players) do that you call it macroing and we are subject to punishment. When you do it, it magically becomes acceptable. Finding out that you assigned a "default key" to an interface tab while I am in combat is the wrong answer. I do not care if you put it in the patch notes, your assignment of key mapping post-release is poor form.

 

Things that I feel are positive features that have been added recently:

Legacy Datacrons: This is a major QoL improvement. That said there is still room to make it better. As it stands there are often a republic and imperial datacron of the same type on many planets; an example of this is the old Cunning (Orange) datacrons on Tatooine or the Strength (Red) datacrons on Nar Shaddaa. Acquiring either of the two will currently complete the "slot" on the progression tab. The progression tab should be laid out as follows: Universal (meaning either faction can get these), Republic Only and Imperial Only. All available datacrons should be tracked on the progression tab.

 

Companion and Contact Quick Travel: This, also is a great feature. It does, however, lose a lot of it's value once your companion/contacts arrive at Odessen. I only need one contact at Odessen to quick travel to Odessen, everything on Odessen is less than a 30 second trip.

 

H2 Quick Travel: Thank you! This is wonderful.

 

Strongholds: This is a good QoL feature.

 

Some negative feedback regarding companions:

 

Post-vanilla companions have no conversations and no explorable back-story. This leads to a lack of attachment to these companions. Further, granting all roles to each companion ensures that most will never be used beyond "mandatory fun".

 

Quite frankly, there are way too many companions and contacts available. If a player is 100% complete with pre-Chapter X they have 23 available companions to choose from - assuming they have not recalled their old crew. This becomes an issue in the crew skills window, trying to locate suitable companions (read: highest influence) to run crew skills.

 

Recommendation: Implement a "sort-by" feature in the crew skills window. Options could be: Influence, Alphabetic, etc etc; I'll let you figure out the details. But, sort-by Influence is an absolute must-have.

 

You introduced us to many new companions through the Star Fortress Resistance Fighters quest arc. None of these provide us with any attachment. A far better way would have been to draw from a pool of previous companions in a way that makes sense to the planet we find them on. For example, it would have made far more sense to find Vector as our contact on Alderaan, rather than some random Ithorian Jedi ....

 

Some previous companions make no sense as members of the resistance, such as Kaylio, Skadge and the like. But Lord Scourge, Corso Riggs, Aric Jorgan, Zenith and Doc would have worked well as resistance members. Ideally, you should have chosen one companion from each story and assigned them as a contact alert for the SF prequests.

 

That brings me to another point. Agents get two story companions back almost immediately, Troopers get two companions back almost immediately, Inquisitors get two companions back almost immediately, Warriors get one companion back almost immediately, Consulars get one companion back almost immediately. Knights get a companion back almost immediately. Bounty Hunters and Smugglers get zero companions back up to this point. You have given back nine story companions and there are eight stories, yet there is a disparity on which stories get a companion back.

 

This is off-putting. Torian or Akavii would very likely be members of the resistance and could be easily added via a SF mission.

 

EDIT: Another companion related issue that I personally have, and opinions vary. I dislike that we must have an AC but our companions do not have such a requirement. I'm all for getting to choose which role every companion fills; but I think it should lock in. I do not think a companion should serve as both tank and healer with a simple button click as the only "gate".

 

An honestly how immersion breaking is that anyway? Lana Beniko can go from Immortal Juggernaut to Corruption Sorcerer in the click of a button?

 

 

 

 

"Group" Content:

H2s:

While I certainly appreciate your effort to bring relevance back to optional "leveling content", quite frankly they are too easy. To prove my point I took a Mercenary to The Lanar Question and completed the H2 solo (this was originally an H4) using Mako as a healer and only using Rapid Shots to kill everything to include the Bonus Boss. I did this on a European server where I do not have hardly any Legacy perks and have low Presence and sub-par gear.

 

Recommendation: Retune H2s to actually be challenging (but doable) as a solo player. While you are at it, restore H4s (and their difficulty) and double the reward of the H2 scale for them.

 

 

The new Group Finder Tactical Flashpoints are frustrating to say the least.

The vast majority of these were designed with the "trinity" in mind. Placing kolto clickies in boss fights does not make up for player ignorance.

 

There is also the entire matter of "story" when it comes to these Flashpoints. Are there no "spoiler police" on the staff? How does it make sense to allow any imperial character under level 47 to access Battle of Ilum or False Emperor? Almost every Flashpoint below Ilum is issued by Darth Malgus. So, you have created a system whereby a "new" player can manually grab Athiss from Darth Malgus, do that FP, then jump into GF and kill Malgus in False Emporer, then go back and grab hammer Station, Mandalorian Raiders or any assortment of Malgus issued Flashpoints at fleet. You are spoiling your own stories. The betrayal of Malgus was a huge story event.

 

Recommendation: Level gate GF Flashpoints again. Allow for level 65s to participate in all of them, but if you are level 20 you would be limited to Flashpoints appropriate for your stage in the story.

 

 

Guild System:

 

Why don't we have guild mail? Why can't guild officers manage the bank? Guild officers can move flagships and invade planets. If officers could manage more of the guild's functions there would be no need for the 30 day guild leader log-in rule. As it stands right now, through the guild management window I can apply all rights to officers that I have available as the GL. But there are too many "behind the scenes" rights that I cannot delegate.

 

 

GSF:

 

Flight stick support. Seriously. SWG JTL had flight stick support in 2004. Here it is basically 2016 and SWTOR doesn't offer flightstick support for their twitch based flight simulator? I'm sure someone will say that not all players have a flightstick. Ok, but not all players have a Razer Naga, Nostromo, G-13, G-15, Steel Series Merc, or any assortment of user friendly gaming mice, keyboards and game pads - yet this game supports them all.

Recommendation: Implement flightstick support for GSF.

 

 

NiM Loot:

 

Look, if you do not want to continue supporting NiMs, then just say that and then remove them.

The original NiM Ops dropped Rakata gear guaranteed, when Rakata was BiS. Not only did it drop, twice as much dropped. Yes, Rakata was also a guaranteed drop in HM Ops. But with NiM you got twice as much. The idea that NiM Ops would only have a "chance" of dropping BiS gear is downright moronic. 224 gear should rain from the heavens in NiM Operations.

 

It is not our (the players) fault that there are no new Operations. It is not our fault that we know the mechanics for all current Operations.

 

These things are YOUR fault for once again breaking a promise that you made. YOU promised that we would never again see a 14 month period with no new Operations (the space between DF/DP and Rav/ToS). Yet here we are again quickly approaching 14 months between Rav/ToS and new operations.

 

We completely understand that you don't want people to "gear up and be done" but this is a time where "alt-farming" comes into play.

 

Right now, a lot of loyal customers are on the verge of being "just done" because of a litany of poor decisions in Austin. For me personally, the announcement surrounding NiM loot was the proverbial camel straw that forced me to break my recurring subscription which has been in place since December 2011.

 

 

Bugs:

I rarely experience any bugs to be honest. But one that really sticks out to me is that for a YEAR now, my Agents hold invisible guns for no reason. Their gun is clearly rendered on their backs and they are not in combat.

 

Back-to-back broken events is a major issue.

 

So for additional long-standing bugs I will rely on the input of other players and add them to this post as they detail them below.

I totally agree on all terms the OP wrote down.

[ekwalizer]

Errr what?

But I'm not really here to talk about SWG, which why it'd be nice if you could stop making this ridiculous comparison. Thanks.

 

1. Then stop talking about it. For the 3rd time, I said "similarities" not A=B. But you want to get stuck on stupid and parrot that it isn't the same. I NEVER said it was the same. I cited it as an example of something not to do, which they had partially done. I don't see you making the argument that this is a video game not a carbonated beverage, after all I cited New Coke as well.

 

2. I'm sure all 17 players that were actually playing Ranger per server were upset until they realized that now any profession could skin critters and throw camps rendering their profession obsolete to begin with. Heck, even Bioengineer and Creature handling made their way back into the game around 2007.

 

3. Most Bounty Hunters were not engaged in the Jedi hunting aspect of the profession. Those that were 3xxx/Melee were the minority.

 

4. I'm entirely certain that I used language that stipulated the "going forward" nature of the truncation of stories.

 

5. You are clearly just trying to derail the thread because the only point you have made is about the NGE. You have offered no constructive feedback with regard to this game.

Edited December 28, 2015 by ekwalizer

[SaibotLiu]

1. Then stop talking about it. For the 3rd time, I said "similarities" not A=B. But you want to get stuck on stupid and parrot that it isn't the same. I NEVER said it was the same. I cited it as an example of something not to do, which they had partially done.

 

You're missing the part where they haven't done anything that is even partially relatively the same. What they've done is par for the course. You don't have lectures in the game design community about how SWTOR ruined their game through reitemization, or streamlining because all MMO's do that. You don't have any examples of them removing classes, content or features on a massive scale, because they haven't done that.

 

NGE is used as an example by developers about what not to do to their game. It is an infamous example because it is the only one we have. By even bringing it into the discussion at all you're greatly over dramatizing the issues you have and making it impossible to take your post seriously. You're relating a car crash with genocide. Maybe if it wasn't for your sensationalized crap I could be bothered being constructive.

 

You've already tried to argue that it is in fact an A=B example afterwards, just a couple of posts ago, by using some derpy math equation. lol So yeah it's pretty safe to assume you do think this is NGE 2.0. I'm here to not allow you to make that assumption by giving you facts. I'm not seeing the problem. But I can see why you'd have a problem with it, but that's not my problem.

 

My problem is that you're resorting to using the gaming equivalent of the Hitler comparison in an attempt to prove a point about your game. It automatically invalidates every other thing you've had to say in your post.

Edited December 28, 2015 by SaibotLiu

[ekwalizer]

You're missing the part where they haven't done anything that is even partially relatively the same. What they've done is par for the course. You don't have lectures in the game design community about how SWTOR ruined their game through reitemization, or streamlining because all MMO's do that. You don't have any examples of them removing classes, content or features on a massive scale, because they haven't done that.

 

NGE is used as an example by developers about what not to do to their game. It is an infamous example because it is the only one we have. By even bringing it into the discussion at all you're greatly over dramatizing the issues you have and making it impossible to take your post seriously. You're relating a car crash with genocide. Maybe if it wasn't for your sensationalized crap I could be bothered being constructive.

 

You've already tried to argue that it is in fact an A=B example afterwards, just a couple of posts ago, by using some derpy math equation. lol So yeah it's pretty safe to assume you do think this is NGE 2.0. I'm here to not allow you to make that assumption by giving you facts. I'm not seeing the problem. But I can see why you'd have a problem with it, but that's not my problem.

 

My problem is that you're resorting to using the gaming equivalent of the Hitler comparison in an attempt to prove a point about your game. It automatically invalidates every other thing you've had to say in your post.

 

Did they fundamentally alter companions? Yes they did.

Did they fundamentally alter the "standard" leveling process? Yes I know we could always level via PvP and FPs - but this is a themepark. So the standard is questing along a predetermined path. Is the path not much shorter now? Again, yes they did.

Did they fundamentally alter Operations? Yes they did, they pulled mechanics out of each boss fight and entire phases from many.

 

Content is being removed on a massive scale when you look at the whole. H4s no longer exist. Entire segments of quests simply no longer exist. Hell, for that matter entire quests no longer exist; go try to pick up the Lew Brell quest on Hutta. House Rist now has an elevator that takes you to the final area, so you don't have to slog through that anymore. The BH chapter 1 finale no longer has the build a jetpack phase. Quests = content. Spinning Lairs a la SWG pre-NGE does not equal content. So don't sit there and say content hasn't been removed. More content was removed in 4.0 than was removed in the NGE.

 

As I already pointed out the only "content" removal in the NGE was Aurillia. Removing Ranger as a class did not remove content, everything a Ranger could do on November 14th, they could do on November 15th; just as a different class. Swordmen/Pikemen and Fencers ... were not content. Bioengineering and Creature Handling were not content, they were mechanics of a chosen class. And as I already pointed out BE/CH came back in 2007 but was available to everyone. The only things really removed never to return were the melee classes; although one could make an argument about Combat Entertainers.

 

The big hippity-hooplah about the NGE wasn't the removal of classes it was the cookie-cuttering of the classes that remained and Jedi being a starter profession. But as I said before even the cookie cutter aspect was false outrage since most players didn't have unique builds in the first place. If you saw a Doctor, he was either MDoc/M<Melee> or MDoc/MCM. If you saw a Ranger he was either Ranger/rifles or Ranger/TKM. Don't even get me started about Jedi; MLS/MH/E4004 or MSL/ME/H4004 were really the only viable options for much of the Pre-CU. Ever see a MBM that wasn't either also MRgr, MBH or MBE? I didn't.

 

Yes, I did three-four posts up go ahead and make the A kind of equals B, but only because you keep insisting that YOU know what I meant in my OP. Newsflash, I know what I meant, I was there when I wrote it and I do not need you to tell me what I meant. But like I said, you feel free to get stuck on stupid because I had the audacity to reference the NGE.

 

Look, I get it, the NGE must have ruined your life - but as I have said for many years now I enjoyed SWG in 2011 far more than I enjoyed it in 2003. So your Hitler assertion is axiomatically wrong.

Edited December 28, 2015 by ekwalizer

[SaibotLiu]

I loved the NGE, yet I compare it to changes I apparently don't like in SWTOR, because smart

 

So in all your examples you've managed to establish that the changes to SWTOR are more in line with changes to EQ2 or WoW, that is a more logical comparison that falls in line with reality.

 

Look I get it, you like the vapid mind number gameplay that was the NGE, but the 200k other people that left including myself were not happy with the change.

 

NGE=turning an adult game into a childrens game.

 

Changes to SWTOR=changing a 5 year olds game into a 4 year olds game.

 

You actually liked the NGE, yet you're here using it as a negative example to changes to SWTOR. So you're admitting that the comparison is not valid since you liked one change and not the other, and are in fact just using it for dramatic effect rather than an actual comparison between the two games.

 

And that's exactly what I said you were doing. Hitler analogy still in play.

 

And it begs the question, if you're comparing what you consider a "blunder", even though you enjoyed it, to the changes in SWTOR, which you apparently do not like, do you even know what you want? My guess would be no, absolutely no idea.

Edited December 29, 2015 by SaibotLiu

[ekwalizer]

So in all your examples you've managed to establish that the changes to SWTOR are more in line with changes to EQ2 or WoW, that is a more logical comparison that falls in line with reality.

 

Look I get it, you like the vapid mind number gameplay that was the NGE, but the 200k other people that left including myself were not happy with the change.

 

NGE=turning an adult game into a childrens game.

 

Changes to SWTOR=changing a 5 year olds game into a 4 year olds game.

 

You actually liked the NGE, yet you're here using it as a negative example to changes to SWTOR. So you're admitting that the comparison is not valid since you liked one change and not the other, and are in fact just using it for dramatic effect rather than an actual comparison between the two games.

 

And that's exactly what I said you were doing. Hitler analogy still in play.

 

And it begs the question, if you're comparing what you consider a "blunder", even though you enjoyed it, to the changes in SWTOR, which you apparently do not like, do you even know what you want? My guess would be no, absolutely no idea.

 

The fact that *I* happened to enjoy it after the initial shock wore off doesn't negate those 200k lost subscriptions you mentioned, does it?