Tacticals should be 2 PCs + 2 comps

[Shirvington]

I normally only PvP and dailies, but I decided to run a tactical for s&g. It popped immediately, False Emperor. Upon zoning, though, I found one person afk at the instance entrance and another still on a planet. After several attempts to herd cats into the instance, we vote kicked one, and before the 5 min timer was up on kick, the other left.

 

So it was me, 65 operative, and a 18 sorc. Normally this would be a recipe for disaster, but I suggested we each get our companions out and set them to heal. I have a 50 Pierce, but his Khem was clearly low influence.

 

It didn't matter. We blew through the tactical, and it was so much fun! Bosses still did damage, the lowbie sorc almost died on HK-47 a couple times from standing in red, and of course the Protocal Droids near the end are still bugged and doing way too much damage (we had to stealth past them)...

 

But all in all, it was a really fun experience! We blew things up, yet still had to play mechanics and avoid danger: I manned the control panels on the mando boss, and intentionally took aggro on the trandosian and HK for simplicity as an experienced player.

 

Tacs would pop twice as fast if they only required two people, and you'd see a lot fewer complaints about tacs as a failed experiment if people were guaranteed a healer.

 

At the very least, give players the option to choose how many people they are comfortable starting with. (I'll do 2,3,4 people tacs. or I'll only do 2 tac, or I'll only do 4 tacs, whatever.)

 

I was pleasantly surprised how quickly and enjoyably the tactical went even though my teammate was a total newb. He learned a bit about the mechanics of the flashpoint and got some great exp and gear, and I, even as a pvper, had a great time doing some pve.

 

I'll copy pasta this into suggestions, but what do you guys think? Give us the option to run tacs as 2 PCs + 2 comps?

[CrazyCT]

I see your point, and I kinda agree, it's always nice to have options, but I fear you're about to get swept away in a flood of "making this a solo RPG instead of an MMO" rants.

[AsarAnchti]

I don't see a problem, you can run Tactics as 2PC+2 comps even now. I've been in Czerka FP on Monday with a 28lvl healer, 43lvl dps. I am 65 lvl dps. The PC healer and my healer comp were able to heal us easily through whole FP.

[TarkaBear]

I've completed an Athiss with my 65 Jedi Knight with healing 50 Kira (35 at the time), and the lower level (20's) player with their T7, and it was hilariously fun. (other 2 ppl left because it was Athiss, at start of instance)

[Katahn]

I've made this suggestion myself and obviously I agree with it. Adding kolto stations to previously regular flashpoints does not make them good for unbalanced groups. Furthermore the bolster doesn't make up enough of a difference for missing abilities and passives lower level players have. Companions always have all of their abilities and, ironically, can be *more* effective bolstered to 65 than a player is. Something really should be done there.

 

By changing the previously regular flashpoints from "any 4 players" to "2 players + 2 companions" you achieve role neutrality. No matter what happens a group can have at least 1 tank and 1 healer regardless, and if they want to run 4x DPS instead they're welcome to try. If nothing else it is a lot less immersion breaking than bosses who conveniently stand near things that help other people kill them.

[Shirvington]

I don't see a problem, you can run Tactics as 2PC+2 comps even now. I've been in Czerka FP on Monday with a 28lvl healer, 43lvl dps. I am 65 lvl dps. The PC healer and my healer comp were able to heal us easily through whole FP.

 

Right, but you can't QUEUE for 2 pcs + 2 comps. You can only queue for 4 pcs then socially engineer your way down to 2 people.

[ZanyaCross]

You can already solo story-centric FPs. What is even the point in what you are asking?

[CrazyCT]

Just a couple of points (it's all hypothetical anyway )

 

You'd need to change the rewards for using Group Finder as well, and give less crystals for only doing a 2 man. It's a tool that's meant to help you find a group. If there are only 2 of you, you can just enter normally.

 

And the engine is barely wheezing along as it is, adding more and more stuff to it is just asking for more trouble.

[Thoronmir]

Right, but you can't QUEUE for 2 pcs + 2 comps. You can only queue for 4 pcs then socially engineer your way down to 2 people.

Yeah, this is the issue. What's needed is not a change to the Tacticals, but a change to the Group Finder to run the Tacticals. I'm generally in favor of more options, so I support this idea. Let players queue for 2-, 3-, or 4-man Tacticals.

 

As for any rants about SWTOR being a "MMORPG," that MMO prefix works both ways. If I'm expected to play with other people, then I'm entitled to expect that they are competent, reliable, polite players. When they're not, the contract is broken.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Thoronmir

[Shirvington]

You can already solo story-centric FPs. What is even the point in what you are asking?

 

If you mean soloing the group tactical, unless you queue for a flashpoint via the groupfinder, you won't get credit for the weekly or for some conquest objectives.

 

Also, if you meant solo mode, group tacticals give better gear than solo mode if I'm not mistaken.

[Frenesi]

If you mean soloing the group tactical, unless you queue for a flashpoint via the groupfinder, you won't get credit for the weekly or for some conquest objectives.

 

Also, if you meant solo mode, group tacticals give better gear than solo mode if I'm not mistaken.

 

It's too bad you have to work for it, right? What a shame.

 

With that said, tacticals are a mess. But that means they require proper balancing, not this BS.

[Shirvington]

Just a couple of points (it's all hypothetical anyway )

 

You'd need to change the rewards for using Group Finder as well, and give less crystals for only doing a 2 man. It's a tool that's meant to help you find a group. If there are only 2 of you, you can just enter normally.

 

And the engine is barely wheezing along as it is, adding more and more stuff to it is just asking for more trouble.

 

The point about the engine is a non sequitur, there is no way to know how difficult it would be to make a change unless you have your hands in it.

 

But to address your other point, I was solo when I queued for the flashpoint, not in a group of 2. I still found a group in the group finder, only it was a group of 2 people and our companions. I don't see a reason to reduce the rewards from a full 4 person group, it's the same flashpoint and same difficulty, just completed with a different composition of PCs. Hard modes are definitely more difficult, and should reward better, in contrast.

[Shirvington]

It's too bad you have to work for it, right? What a shame.

 

With that said, tacticals are a mess. But that means they require proper balancing, not this BS.

 

Where you are drawing your first conclusion, I don't know. You quoted my response about why it's beneficial to queue for a flashpoint. I don't know what you are talking about when you say "too bad you have to work for it." I never complained about the difficulty, and in fact, if you read the thread opener, you would see that I made the flashpoint more difficult for myself so that my 18 sorc teammate's time would be easier.

 

This is a really simple method of addressing the tacticals. Why bother going through each one and rebalancing it when you can simply let people queue and bring their companions in?

[Frenesi]

Where you are drawing your first conclusion, I don't know. You quoted my response about why it's beneficial to queue for a flashpoint. I don't know what you are talking about when you say "too bad you have to work for it." I never complained about the difficulty, and in fact, if you read the thread opener, you would see that I made the flashpoint more difficult for myself so that my 18 sorc teammate's time would be easier.

 

This is a really simple method of addressing the tacticals. Why bother going through each one and rebalancing it when you can simply let people queue and bring their companions in?

 

Becouse in my book the idea to make FPs for 2 people is part of further dumbification of group content. Sorry, but after the Ops disaster I'm still bitter about the topic.

 

Also, do you say that 2 comps are that much better than 2 other people, even if they are low level? Becouse I doubt it will change anything. Fact is, tacticals are too hard for what they are. They need balancing. I doubt 2 man-2 comps scheme will fix it.

 

Edit: yea, healers. Forgot about them. Still, it will be badly placed band-aid.

Edited December 16, 2015 by Frenesi

[Katahn]

My first and best preference would be to return the previously non-tactical flashpoints back to being non-tactical. They were built and designed for balanced groups and adding a few kolto stations is not only woefully insufficient but actually is fairly immersion breaking besides. It draws attention to the fact this is a game by the use of such a blatantly meta system.

 

Could they be balanced and retuned to make them genuinely role-neutral? That would work too. Cut the trash in half, get rid of kolto stations and give us all a self-clickie "GSI Medkit" or suchnot we can use on a 1 minute cooldown. Turn elites into strongs and strongs into normal. Nerf the boss aoe mechanics.

 

They could also change them so they run level X-65 where X is the former minimum level for the FP. Instead of getting into FE at level 15 (spoilers plus you lack a bunch of key abilities and passives) you become eligible for Hammer at 15, Athiss at 19, Mandalorian Raiders at 23, etc. Once eligible you stay eligible of course.

 

Another mechanism would be to reduce group size in tacticals to 2 and allow both players to bring companions. Black Talon/Esseles was (pre-GF) in this mold of flashpoints. It has precedent.

[ZanyaCross]

My first and best preference would be to return the previously non-tactical flashpoints back to being non-tactical. They were built and designed for balanced groups and adding a few kolto stations is not only woefully insufficient but actually is fairly immersion breaking besides. It draws attention to the fact this is a game by the use of such a blatantly meta system.

 

Unfortunately the problem is that healing and tanking do not come naturally to most people, so far fewer people roll them and the DPSs end up waiting a ridiculously long time. The best solution would be to balance the classes more, so DPSs could take more damage at the expense of doing a bit less, but then you'd have people screaming about nerfs and dumbing down and saminess.

[Frenesi]

Edit: Nvm. Gonna get more coffee Edited December 16, 2015 by Frenesi

[Master-Nala]

Right, but you can't QUEUE for 2 pcs + 2 comps. You can only queue for 4 pcs then socially engineer your way down to 2 people.

 

You ignore part of the reason the group finder is there. It's not just there for your sole entertainment. It's intended to provide as many people as possible with group experiences. You can 'socially engineer' (i.e. be a jerk and boot people for no reason) down to what you want, but that doesn't mean the devs should make that the default.

 

The goal of group content is to get people together to play. If you want to do tacticals with companions, nothing is stopping you. You just have to walk into the instance on your own and find your own group.

[Katahn]

Unfortunately the problem is that healing and tanking do not come naturally to most people, so far fewer people roll them and the DPSs end up waiting a ridiculously long time. The best solution would be to balance the classes more, so DPSs could take more damage at the expense of doing a bit less, but then you'd have people screaming about nerfs and dumbing down and saminess.

 

I'm not opposed to more role-neutral content at all. I'm just saying it takes more than a few kolto stations to get you from "trinity balanced" to "anyone is fine". The current system also doesn't sufficiently account for the fact that lower level players accessing higher level flashpoints lack the array of passives and actives higher level players have. Not to mention the massive spoilers that ensue if you get the Rakata TFP before even starting the pre-SoR story content for example.

 

I'd love to see tanking and healing made a bit less vulnerable to poor team behavior. If DPS going off ahead of the tank were more often instantly fatal you'd have a lot less of people "helping" the tank pull. If CC could be easily and quickly re-applied in all cases it might actually get used. If people couldn't queue as a tank or healer if they weren't at least geared for it (at least have a shield as a tank ok?) that would be a start and better if they couldn't if not geared and specced it would be tremendous.

 

Lacking that you're always going to have shortages. Very few people want to be aggravated after all. At least not beyond what enjoyment they derive from it.

 

So either fix the tanking and healing mechanics and set the flashpoints back to balanced groups or address their current borked state somehow.

[TarkaBear]

 

Also, if you meant solo mode, group tacticals give better gear than solo mode if I'm not mistaken.

 

Solo mode gives you 1 common data crystal per boss, a random boe green if you're lucky.

 

 

As such you are most definitely not mistaken.

[TX_Angel]

I don't see a problem, you can run Tactics as 2PC+2 comps even now. I've been in Czerka FP on Monday with a 28lvl healer, 43lvl dps. I am 65 lvl dps. The PC healer and my healer comp were able to heal us easily through whole FP.

 

Not via GF you can't, and without GF you miss half the point of doing them.

 

Conquest points

Daily GF reward

Tag the weekly 5x mission

 

If you group up and manually enter, you get none of the above, thus missing a lot of the reason to do them.

[TX_Angel]

Becouse in my book the idea to make FPs for 2 people is part of further dumbification of group content. Sorry, but after the Ops disaster I'm still bitter about the topic.

 

^ That ship has already sailed... you're late to the party

 

I will say that if you don't like this idea, then going back to story mode FP requiring the trinity would be my vote. Lacking a healer and a tank makes too many of them suck, so I no longer run them at all...

[Katahn]

^ That ship has already sailed... you're late to the party

 

I will say that if you don't like this idea, then going back to story mode FP requiring the trinity would be my vote. Lacking a healer and a tank makes too many of them suck, so I no longer run them at all...

 

Agreed. I'd also love to see the minimum levels restored to run them. Leave them capped at 65, sure, but putting level 15 people into BoI or FE is spoilerriffic at best. Bolster doesn't provide for active and passive abilities that don't exist yet and were factored into how the FP was designed.

 

I've had a tank character at level 20 get *DESTROYED* in Red Reaper (specced and wearing what tank gear as was available at the time) and then go on to do just fine tanking Hammer Station.

[Khevar]

If you want to do tacticals with companions, nothing is stopping you. You just have to walk into the instance on your own and find your own group.

Exactly this ^^

 

Fast travel will take you close to most every flashpoint entrance. Running with 2+comps is already available -- doesn't require changing the group finder interface.

[Shirvington]

Exactly this ^^

 

Fast travel will take you close to most every flashpoint entrance. Running with 2+comps is already available -- doesn't require changing the group finder interface.

 

As has already been stated, you lose out on the daily, the weekly, and possibly conquest points by not using group finder. Also, people may not have others to queue with and would still want to "queue up" to be grouped with others.