Rhyltran Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) You know that without the helmet he would have died right? You know that it only hit his helmet because of his carelessness due to being 99% blaster resistant to begin with, correct? Vader has blocked omnidirectional blaster fire from over 60 sources, from all angles, and all sides. Including has feats that have turned the very air in front of him red (from how quickly he was moving his lightsaber) preventing all blaster fire from being able to reach him. To assume he couldn't block Fett's shot would be absurd. Vader has been hit before from attacks he's considered "Harmless" and through his own carelessness. It's what happens when dealing with a guy who admits the thing he hates most is himself. He had the advantage of Vader thinking he was dead and letting his guard down completely. (Using his jetpack to avoid falling into the lava and firing when Vader peered over.) Edited December 14, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 And this is how non force users kill force users they take advantage of their weakness. Vader was arrogant here, in some cases like Atton Rand they use the compassion of some force users against them. But mostly is arrogance like thinking blasters can not kill you like on Geonosis. Force users are not invincible they just should not lose in a fair duel with non force sensitive but who says it must be fair. Also emotions like arrogance and compassion, rage, pride intervene and you die. For example Darth Caedus should have won against his sister but compassion and love where his weakness there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) And this is how non force users kill force users they take advantage of their weakness. Vader was arrogant here, in some cases like Atton Rand they use the compassion of some force users against them. But mostly is arrogance like thinking blasters can not kill you like on Geonosis. Force users are not invincible they just should not lose in a fair duel with non force sensitive but who says it must be fair. Also emotions like arrogance and compassion, rage, pride intervene and you die. For example Darth Caedus should have won against his sister but compassion and love where his weakness there. Except Vader has that level of confidence only because he's practically invincible to non-force users. That's entirely my point. Vader is that overconfident because if you noticed even when Boba got that shot off it didn't do anything. Vader has nothing to fear from a blaster. Someone who isn't immune to blaster fire aren't going to make the same risks. Ever played a game with cheat codes? Who cares if you get shot when it doesn't matter? Vader has shown he's cautious, patient, and cunning when fighting multiple opponents or a dangerous opponent. Edited December 14, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) Except Vader has that level of confidence only because he's practically invincible to non-force users. That's entirely my point. Vader is that overconfident because if you noticed even when Boba got that shot off it didn't do anything. Vader has nothing to fear from a blaster. Someone who isn't immune to blaster fire aren't going to make the same risks. Ever played a game with cheat codes? Who cares if you get shot when it doesn't matter? Vader has shown he's cautious, patient, and cunning when fighting multiple opponents or a dangerous opponent. Well there was a notable exception well 2 actually Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker if the novel well shows his inner thoughts. Galen Marek pushed him to the edge with taunting making him rage so no more being cautious and patient and he lost. With Luke he was really in pain in inside and could not give his all. With Bobba Fett he was tricked and yeah distracted. Also Bobba could have pushed him if not shoot him. Vader fought Bobba Fett once more in a lightsaber duel and the mandalorian managed to keep up with him. And people say non force users can not use lightsabers. Edited December 14, 2015 by adormitul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Well there was a notable exception well 2 actually Galen Marek and Luke Skywalker if the novel well shows his inner thoughts. Galen Marek pushed him to the edge with taunting making him rage so no more being cautious and patient and he lost. With Luke he was really in pain in inside and could not give his all. With Bobba Fett he was tricked and yeah distracted. Also Bobba could have pushed him if not shoot him. Vader fought Bobba Fett once more in a lightsaber duel and the mandalorian managed to keep up with him. And people say non force users can not use lightsabers. Several things. Galen Marek is a whole different ball of wax. During that time he was very close to Vader in terms of ability, skill, and power. The same can't be said about a non-force sensitive. Luke is the one exception of this happening. Vader was considered cold and ruthless up until he realized his son was alive. Boba Fett would not have been able to push him. Between his cybernetics, weight of his body/machine parts, force augmentation, it wouldn't have worked. He also knew force levitation so it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Plus to push him he'd have to get close to him or run up on him. Vader is much much faster than Boba. He has speed feats where he's disappeared from his opponent's vision and even in Disney Canon was able to run fast enough that onlookers barely had time to register what was going on. Plus Vader may have even seen him out the corner of his eye. The lightsaber fight from tales? Wasn't even Canon even if it was? Boba didn't hold his own there either. (It really isn't and never was.) Boba draws lightsaber, blocks Vader's strike, boasts then all you see is Vader swinging a few times in the panel causing Boba to end up outside the cantina and then he gets disarmed. He doesn't hold his own. He's completely outmatched and beaten. In fact, the panel makes it clear Vader is moving his lightsaber around so quickly Boba can't follow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 Several things. Galen Marek is a whole different ball of wax. During that time he was very close to Vader in terms of ability, skill, and power. The same can't be said about a non-force sensitive. Luke is the one exception of this happening. Vader was considered cold and ruthless up until he realized his son was alive. Boba Fett would not have been able to push him. Between his cybernetics, weight of his body/machine parts, force augmentation, it wouldn't have worked. He also knew force levitation so it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Plus to push him he'd have to get close to him or run up on him. Vader is much much faster than Boba. He has speed feats where he's disappeared from his opponent's vision and even in Disney Canon was able to run fast enough that onlookers barely had time to register what was going on. Plus Vader may have even seen him out the corner of his eye. The lightsaber fight from tales? Wasn't even Canon even if it was? Boba didn't hold his own there either. (It really isn't and never was.) Boba draws lightsaber, blocks Vader's strike, boasts then all you see is Vader swinging a few times in the panel causing Boba to end up outside the cantina and then he gets disarmed. He doesn't hold his own. He's completely outmatched and beaten. In fact, the panel makes it clear Vader is moving his lightsaber around so quickly Boba can't follow it. Vader was strong but either way he did not managed well in that battle. Granted no force sensitive managed to put him in such a position and with the exception of the race Durge was I do not think there is any race. There where other examples where he got surprised like in the fight with the 5 jedi. Or when he was captured and killed wiling himself to return to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) Vader was strong but either way he did not managed well in that battle. Granted no force sensitive managed to put him in such a position and with the exception of the race Durge was I do not think there is any race. There where other examples where he got surprised like in the fight with the 5 jedi. Or when he was captured and killed wiling himself to return to life. It was 8 Jedi actually. Surprised by 8 Jedi. 5 of which were masters. He managed fine in the battle with Boba. Boba attacks and tries throwing everything he has at him. Vader deflects everything and corners him. Boba is beaten. Boba throws himself off the side. Vader, concerned for the chest, quickly runs over. Gets shot. Boba thinks he's won. Vader stands up and chokes him. Boba to save himself knocks box off the ledge so he could run away. Other than that one hit. Boba did nothing to Vader. Truth is the reason people knock non-force sensitives is.. we have a list of some of the most powerful force sensitives. There's many other extremely powerful force users that aren't on that list. Truth is all the greatest force users? Have never been killed by a non-force user. It just doesn't happen. It hasn't happened. A non-force sensitive can't beat the greatest force users in a duel. It's unprecedented. Edited December 14, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adormitul Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 It was 8 Jedi actually. Surprised by 8 Jedi. 5 of which were masters. He managed fine in the battle with Boba. Boba attacks and tries throwing everything he has at him. Vader deflects everything and corners him. Boba is beaten. Boba throws himself off the side. Vader, concerned for the chest, quickly runs over. Gets shot. Boba thinks he's won. Vader stands up and chokes him. Boba to save himself knocks box off the ledge so he could run away. Other than that one hit. Boba did nothing to Vader. Truth is the reason people knock non-force sensitives is.. we have a list of some of the most powerful force sensitives. There's many other extremely powerful force users that aren't on that list. Truth is all the greatest force users? Have never been killed by a non-force user. It just doesn't happen. It hasn't happened. A non-force sensitive can't beat the greatest force users in a duel. It's unprecedented. Hmmm well yeah might be right I do not know of a great one killed by non force user well by 1 non force user. There where some sorta good ones that got killed like that and others that well managed to keep up with one for a trap. And of course there is Grevious but to his credit none of the force users he killed where not the greatest force users or if they where they where about 40 or 50 in the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_plankskull Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Truth is the reason people knock non-force sensitives is.. we have a list of some of the most powerful force sensitives. There's many other extremely powerful force users that aren't on that list. Truth is all the greatest force users? Have never been killed by a non-force user. It just doesn't happen. It hasn't happened. A non-force sensitive can't beat the greatest force users in a duel. It's unprecedented. And this is why I don't like the EU. No force sensitive should be invincible, even someone like Palpatine should be at least be killable from non force sensitives, although that's going to be A LOT of effort. What's the fun in writing about a Gary Stu anyway, knowing nothing in the universe can touch him, and then he continues to have a simple mindset with no character progression once so ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) And this is why I don't like the EU. No force sensitive should be invincible, even someone like Palpatine should be at least be killable from non force sensitives, although that's going to be A LOT of effort. What's the fun in writing about a Gary Stu anyway, knowing nothing in the universe can touch him, and then he continues to have a simple mindset with no character progression once so ever. Disney Star Wars isn't any different. Vader survived an AT-AT blasting him. Was able to also lift one off the ground crushing it. His feat moving his lightsaber so fast the very air turned red creating an "impenetrable barrier"? Disney Canon. Him blocking firepower from all sides? Disney Canon and in Disney Canon he deflected Freighter turbo lasers that were capable of disintegrating trees and had the strength to maintain control of his lightsaber while deflecting them. It hasn't changed. In Disney Canon in a new comic? Luke Skywalker, prior to Empire Strikes back, got in a fight with Boba Fett who ambushed him, blinded him, and by using the force to guide him still won. So yeah.. not much has changed. Edited December 14, 2015 by Rhyltran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_plankskull Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Disney Star Wars isn't any different. Vader survived an AT-AT blasting him. Was able to also lift one off the ground crushing it. His feat moving his lightsaber so fast the very air turned red creating an "impenetrable barrier"? Disney Canon. Him blocking firepower from all sides? Disney Canon and in Disney Canon he deflected Freighter turbo lasers that were capable of disintegrating trees and had the strength to maintain control of his lightsaber while deflecting them. It hasn't changed. In Disney Canon in a new comic? Luke Skywalker, prior to Empire Strikes back, got in a fight with Boba Fett who ambushed him, blinded him, and by using the force to guide him still won. So yeah.. not much has changed. Disney Canon is like this BECAUSE of EU. All the fanboys would complain if the new canon isn't like the old EU, as Disney is trying to do whatever they can to gain trust in others for there star wars market. If they weren't trying to impress the EU fanboys, then they would lose out on a market there trying to hit which would lead to a decrease in revenue and you know Disney loves money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melaphont Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 (edited) It can be explained, actually. To push anything small like detonator button, you need to concentrate and be very precise, which is often very hard in the middle of combat, especially when the target is constantly moving. And, of course, you need to be a master of telekinesis to even try that tactic. (An example from another universe: in Marvel universe there are many characters, capable of magnetic manipulations. But only Magneto regularly does feats like taking out pins of grenades or controlling enemy's guns - and even he most often prefers just wiping such enemies away with waves of power) I have been surprised many times about the fact that Force-users do not attempt to switch off of or snort out opponent's lightsaber. After some discussions I assumed that one of the basic skills to learn while studying lightsaber combat is shielding your weapon with the Force against unwelcome influence. So, most often it is easier for a Force-user to crush the opponent, or to disarm him, then actually influence his weapon. Mandalorian iron and vonduun-crab armour do not protect against the Force. They are lightsaber-resistant, which is a different thing. My point was, they can, if they wanted to create a story where a non force user was on equal footing. They did it with Obi Wan and Cad Bane. Force powers are incredibly inconsistent in TV, books, or movies and moves more in the rule of cool, then having any consistency to it. So I have no problem with non force users defeating the best force users and so on. There is always someone/something the plot can create or ignore. Disney Star Wars isn't any different. Vader survived an AT-AT blasting him. Was able to also lift one off the ground crushing it. His feat moving his lightsaber so fast the very air turned red creating an "impenetrable barrier"? Disney Canon. Him blocking firepower from all sides? Disney Canon and in Disney Canon he deflected Freighter turbo lasers that were capable of disintegrating trees and had the strength to maintain control of his lightsaber while deflecting them. This help me, more then it helps people who like the idea of force users being absurdly powerful. If Vader was this consistently powerful throughout the whole setting, it would make sense, but since he gets nerfed quite regularly, there is no reason to care one way or another, because the consistency with force powers is absolute nonsense. Edited December 14, 2015 by Melaphont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Disney Canon is like this BECAUSE of EU. All the fanboys would complain if the new canon isn't like the old EU, as Disney is trying to do whatever they can to gain trust in others for there star wars market. If they weren't trying to impress the EU fanboys, then they would lose out on a market there trying to hit which would lead to a decrease in revenue and you know Disney loves money... See. It gets proven and then people go "Well that's just because..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_plankskull Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 See. It gets proven and then people go "Well that's just because..." Because its a valid point for Disney to reach out to there market? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 Because its a valid point for Disney to reach out to there market? Whatever the reason, they went and did it. Hunter (Boba) doesn't beat the Warrior (Vader) or the Knight (Luke) Yes, the force can do a lot, and much like telekinesis in comics it gets played down or forgotten, which is good, suspense, but still the suspense can be there while in the back of your mind...you know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melaphont Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) Whatever the reason, they went and did it. Hunter (Boba) doesn't beat the Warrior (Vader) or the Knight (Luke) Yes, the force can do a lot, and much like telekinesis in comics it gets played down or forgotten, which is good, suspense, but still the suspense can be there while in the back of your mind...you know! Cad Bane is proof that force powers and non force users and their ability to fight against force users is incredibly inconsistent. Obi Wan is the same guy who defeated Anakin, yet, with 2 Jedi fighting Cad Bane, he was able to go toe to toe with them. Only thing that matters is what the plot demands and what the writers want. Edited December 15, 2015 by Melaphont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Cad Bane is proof that force powers and non force users and their ability to fight against force users is incredibly inconsistent. Obi Wan is the same guy who defeated Anakin, yet, with 2 Jedi fighting Cad Bane, he was able to go toe to toe with them. Only thing that matters is what the plot demands and what the writers want. That scene (while a nice fight scene) shows they weren't seriously trying to stop the Hunter, and that the Hunter didn't win the fight, he managed to run away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melaphont Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 That scene (while a nice fight scene) shows they weren't seriously trying to stop the Hunter, and that the Hunter didn't win the fight, he managed to run away. "That's because" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 "That's because" Exactly. The "that's because" is the strong force users will generally win in the one on one, unless "that's because" effect takes place, in which the normal gets to get away Now, even though TESB seems to say there is no weak force users, I think the movies, shows and game show there are in fact, less than stellar force users. No matter how hard one may try, they won't life that rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 Cad Bane is proof that force powers and non force users and their ability to fight against force users is incredibly inconsistent. Obi Wan is the same guy who defeated Anakin, yet, with 2 Jedi fighting Cad Bane, he was able to go toe to toe with them. Only thing that matters is what the plot demands and what the writers want. Other than what Koriandr stated it also doesn't disprove what I'm claiming either. Obi Wan and Quinlan Vos are not as powerful as people on the likes of Revan, Yoda, Vader, Talzin, Exar Kun, Caedus, Plagueis, etc. They are not the highest tier of Jedi/Sith. Obi Wan is powerful. Don't get me wrong but the best of the best of non-force sensitives can give him a good show/Run. That being said, both times, he wasn't fighting to kill and if he was that would change the game quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexusofdeath Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 He has his own book. Revan is very power. Not Luke Skywalker powerful but almost. Revans power comes from using both sides of the force and not being controlled by either side or losing power using DS\LS techniques because he is in full effect of both sides creating a pure balance. He was created for a video game but I would consider the books to be true cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedusz Posted December 18, 2015 Share Posted December 18, 2015 (edited) He was created for a video game but I would consider the books to be true cannon. Why would ''being created for a video game'' be a negative thing? In fact it's the opposite imo. Especially when Bioware is involved. Edited December 18, 2015 by Kaedusz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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