Where most jedi during the end of the old Jedi order weak?

[adormitul]

I got this question in my mind after I remember Grevious killed over 20 jedi. Yeah I know he was a master duelist but what does that matter when you can force push him or force crush him or both. Even mind trick him but yeah doubt that works. Or force choke him.

Yet all over 20 of them did not do any of that they fought him with lightsaber combat which is dumb by the way so it makes me wonder where they unable to use anything more the force precognition and that is why they lost.

Where most Jedi of the prequel movies actually weaker then most Jedi in the SWTOR era?

Yea there where powerhouses like Windu and Obi won and Yoda but many others where meh at best. So where they?

[StarMagus]

Was there any reason why he was immune to being force lifted or pushed around? I mean every Jedi in the movie can force push robots left and right, and even pick up super heavy objects. Yet every time the killer robot with the light sabers shows up they all rush in like bad Kung-Fu extras to fight him in combat.

 

Sure you can't force lift a sith, because they can counter you. He's a droid..... with a coughing problem.

 

Add on: Not a droid, he's a cyborg. Not a force user.

Edited December 4, 2015 by StarMagus

[adormitul]

Yeah that is what I mean. Yes jedi has to focus on their target and to be at a certain distance unless its force chock and even then you have to see the target to do that or be very close to you if not. But I doubt that Grevious was that fast that they could not focus on him.

[Newyankalt]

Was there any reason why he was immune to being force lifted or pushed around? I mean every Jedi in the movie can force push robots left and right, and even pick up super heavy objects. Yet every time the killer robot with the light sabers shows up they all rush in like bad Kung-Fu extras to fight him in combat.

 

Sure you can't force lift a sith, because they can counter you. He's a droid..... with a coughing problem.

 

Add on: Not a droid, he's a cyborg. Not a force user.

 

Can't Grievous like lock his feet so he can't be thrown around... I assume he can since you see him actually out in space sometimes

[adormitul]

Okay the what about force choke? Yeah I know its a dark side skill but it seem it does not take a lot to learn it and lets be honest do they even learn or they know for instinct on how to use it. For example who thought Ventress how to use it or Anakin.

[PadsterPwns]

To be fair Grievous is a monster, he keeps up with the likes of Mace, Fisto and Kenobi regularly and was the physical top dog of the era. A large factor of his kill count is due to the conditions he killed them in, Dooku explains that for Grievous to stand a chance against any powerful Jedi that he needs to have them tired, scared and unfocused otherwise there's a large chance Grievous will lose. Honestly that's selling Grievous short though, he stalemated Windu while his mobility was reduced and even then Windu decided to BFR him rather than try and beat him. Addressing Force techniques, there's two problems, the first being the morality of a standard Jedi. A standard Jedi isn't likely to be like Windu who was fine with crushing him, most Jedi try to end conflict without killing their foe (unless against something like a droid) so they usually won't try to slam him around and some Jedi will try to disarm him. The second problem is Grievous' weight, while we see Kenobi, Fisto and Windu Force push/crush him, most Jedi aren't as strong as them meaning that if they try to telekinetically push him it will only stagger him or leave him unaffected and that's if the blow hits him as we've seen him dodge Force attacks from Jedi Masters.

 

TL;DR, They aren't weaker (in fact the PT era is canonically the golden age of the Jedi) but the Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap, with most casualties being caused by Jedi being overwhelmed by armies of droids or being attacked by people like Ventress, Savage and Grievous.

[PadsterPwns]

Okay the what about force choke? Yeah I know its a dark side skill but it seem it does not take a lot to learn it and lets be honest do they even learn or they know for instinct on how to use it. For example who thought Ventress how to use it or Anakin.

 

Dooku taught Ventress IIRC.

[adormitul]

Did she not knew force choke before if I remember correctly from the cartoons? And Anakin who taught him when he used in his moments of rage?

Or Luke who taught him?

Either way Windu or Kenobi where powerhouses in the force more Windu then Kenobi but still they where above average yet do not forget that Grevious killed Jedi masters and lets be honest the first time he appeared he killed several knights and a master. Really now did the master had to hold back when he saw the knights dead?

[Archanubis]

TL;DR, They aren't weaker (in fact the PT era is canonically the golden age of the Jedi) but the Clone Wars were the perfect Jedi trap, with most casualties being caused by Jedi being overwhelmed by armies of droids or being attacked by people like Ventress, Savage and Grievous.

 

^This. The war's attrition thinned the Jedi's ranks, and then Order 66 took the rest by surprise. What survivors there were were hunted down by the Empire until there were only two (known) fully trained Jedi by the time of the ANH (what Rebels decides to do not withstanding).

[StarMagus]

Did she not knew force choke before if I remember correctly from the cartoons? And Anakin who taught him when he used in his moments of rage?

Or Luke who taught him?

Either way Windu or Kenobi where powerhouses in the force more Windu then Kenobi but still they where above average yet do not forget that Grevious killed Jedi masters and lets be honest the first time he appeared he killed several knights and a master. Really now did the master had to hold back when he saw the knights dead?

 

Yeah but if that's the golden age, how come they are so much weaker than the Old Repubic Jedi Masters who every single one of them are massively impressive. I mean in the first mission as a new Jedi knight you see a master bring down an entire cave system of stone to plug it up. Bad guys who aren't even masters do similar tricks.

[Aurbere]

Yeah but if that's the golden age, how come they are so much weaker than the Old Repubic Jedi Masters who every single one of them are massively impressive. I mean in the first mission as a new Jedi knight you see a master bring down an entire cave system of stone to plug it up. Bad guys who aren't even masters do similar tricks.

 

Plo Koon did that as a Padawan.

[adormitul]

Plo Koon did that as a Padawan.

 

Well he was not a average Jedi and also a padawan turned dark jedi did the same thing in SWTOR. That is the thing he was part of the jedi council and was praised for his awesome skills but the majority where awful.

[PadsterPwns]

Did she not knew force choke before if I remember correctly from the cartoons? And Anakin who taught him when he used in his moments of rage?

Or Luke who taught him?

Either way Windu or Kenobi where powerhouses in the force more Windu then Kenobi but still they where above average yet do not forget that Grevious killed Jedi masters and lets be honest the first time he appeared he killed several knights and a master. Really now did the master had to hold back when he saw the knights dead?

 

If you're referencing the 2003 Clone Wars series, with the Grievous vs Mundi, Ti and crew that's actually the perfect example of Grievous' tactics. Note that a massive army is walking towards them when Grievous halts them. We then see the Jedi (who look and sound exhausted) running around and regrouping. They then start to hear Grievous walking above them, with a few of them beginning to sweat from fear and then the walking noise stops. At this point a Padawan rushes out and Grievous kills him by literally jumping on him. After this he disappears again and the remaining Jedi start stepping back in a circle, all of them on guard. Grievous then jumps down and all of them begin fighting against him, with only Ti and Mundi holding up a defense, the rest of them being flung across the room and knocked unconscious. He then knocks Ti out and Mundi manages to keep his defense up long enough for he, Ti and Secura to be extracted by a Clone LAAT/i, with the suppressing fire of the Clones and the gunship not managing to kill Grievous.

 

This basically shows how effective Grievous' strategy was, as he waited until they were worn out, scared and unfocused before he attacked them. Result? He effortlessly stomps 4 Jedi and would have killed 2 Council Masters if the Clones hadn't have shown up.

[Archanubis]

This basically shows how effective Grievous' strategy was, as he waited until they were worn out, scared and unfocused before he attacked them. Result? He effortlessly stomps 4 Jedi and would have killed 2 Council Masters if the Clones hadn't have shown up.

 

That's basically how he operated in the CGI series, too - let his army or Magna Guards wear the Jedi out, then deliver the killing blow. He wasn't afraid to use blasters, either -"fighting fair" was definitely not in his vocabulary.

[adormitul]

That is actually a very good point he does not take them on their best well usually he does do it sometimes like with Tano who well lets say put more then a fight. And she was only a padawan but its true that she way stronger then a average Jedi knight like how the former apprentice made knight of Kit Fisto was.

Really she who could fight Ventress and Grevious on sorta equal grounds was padawan and that dude a knight?

This is what I mean that the majority of the jedi in that era where weak. I mean really weak.

[PadsterPwns]

That is actually a very good point he does not take them on their best well usually he does do it sometimes like with Tano who well lets say put more then a fight. And she was only a padawan but its true that she way stronger then a average Jedi knight like how the former apprentice made knight of Kit Fisto was.

Really she who could fight Ventress and Grevious on sorta equal grounds was padawan and that dude a knight?

This is what I mean that the majority of the jedi in that era where weak. I mean really weak.

 

To be fair the fights Grievous had with Ahsoka highlight a bad trait of his, he toys with those he thinks below him. In two of the fights with Ahsoka there are moments where he could flat out kill her but instead he simply brutalizes her which allows her to escape/counter. The thing is that the Jedi aren't weak, they're simply not what we see the most of so they appear weak.

[PadsterPwns]

That's basically how he operated in the CGI series, too - let his army or Magna Guards wear the Jedi out, then deliver the killing blow. He wasn't afraid to use blasters, either -"fighting fair" was definitely not in his vocabulary.

 

Exactly.

[Newyankalt]

I think if we're excluding Legends then Grievous hasn't actually killed any notable Jedi Masters. Most of the trophies we see in TCW "Lair of Grievous" are mainly from Padawans and Knights. Also some of those trophies where not likely his kills but instead lightsabers for example he may have picked up after a battle.

 

Grievous however could have easily killed Ahsoka or Eeth Koth (who was a Master). He should have just killed Koth the moment the Jedi arrived in that episode and then continue the battle.

[Archanubis]

I think if we're excluding Legends then Grievous hasn't actually killed any notable Jedi Masters. Most of the trophies we see in TCW "Lair of Grievous" are mainly from Padawans and Knights. Also some of those trophies where not likely his kills but instead lightsabers for example he may have picked up after a battle.

 

Grievous however could have easily killed Ahsoka or Eeth Koth (who was a Master). He should have just killed Koth the moment the Jedi arrived in that episode and then continue the battle.

 

Eeth Koth was supposed to die that episode (partly to push the threat Grievous was supposed to represent to the Jedi), but the show runners fell in love with him (and had gotten sick of introducing "interesting" characters just to kill them off) that they spared him.

 

And then never featured him in another episode again...

[PadsterPwns]

Eeth Koth was supposed to die that episode (partly to push the threat Grievous was supposed to represent to the Jedi), but the show runners fell in love with him (and had gotten sick of introducing "interesting" characters just to kill them off) that they spared him.

 

And then never featured him in another episode again...

 

Kind of a shame, I like Eeth Koth but it would have been a cool way to give Grievous a good kill and explain why Agen Kolar replaces him.

[adormitul]

To be fair the fights Grievous had with Ahsoka highlight a bad trait of his, he toys with those he thinks below him. In two of the fights with Ahsoka there are moments where he could flat out kill her but instead he simply brutalizes her which allows her to escape/counter. The thing is that the Jedi aren't weak, they're simply not what we see the most of so they appear weak.

 

I think in one of the encounters Ahsoka used the force to enhace her strength actually taking Grevious hand where he kept her light saber and cut the hand that gripped her neck. It was what jedi should do. The second time well this how you should fight Grevious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vYhavnfLR4

You use the force to make up for the lack of lightsaber skills.

Look at this idiot

you think to use force push now when you are surrounded what about using that before they entered the whole in the wall and finish Grevious. But this is my point he practically disarmed Grevious with force push I am surprised none of the 20 something Jedi did not think of that.

Or do what the gungan did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW8ku_RW6xs

Edited December 4, 2015 by adormitul

[Archanubis]

I think in one of the encounters Ahsoka used the force to enhace her strength actually taking Grevious hand where he kept her light saber and cut the hand that gripped her neck. It was what jedi should do. The second time well this how you should fight Grevious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vYhavnfLR4

You use the force to make up for the lack of lightsaber skills.

Look at this idiot

you think to use force push now when you are surrounded what about using that before they entered the whole in the wall and finish Grevious. But this is my point he practically disarmed Grevious with force push I am surprised none of the 20 something Jedi did not think of that.

Or do what the gungan did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW8ku_RW6xs

 

Well, he had to live to the end of RotS somehow, right?

[Kaedusz]

Where most jedi during the end of the old Jedi order weak?

at worst, yes

at best, pretty much the same as any other Jedi in any era

 

There are a few or less names that stand out which are maybe more powerful than the names that stand out in other eras.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Kaedusz

[adormitul]

at worst, yes

at best, pretty much the same as any other Jedi in any era

 

There are a few or less names that stand out which are maybe more powerful than the names that stand out in other eras.

 

Well yeah maybe Yoda or Windu could be said to exceed the best in other periods well probably since the best jedi again I said Jedi not other kind of force user was well Revan in older periods and maybe the Jedi Exile and she was not playing fair.

[Newyankalt]

Yeah Koth not dying was a thing that didn't end up getting resolved even though he had to die...