Alacrity, and you!

[TitusOfTides]

I've been experimenting with Alacrity and I have a few things I would like to share. I was going to keep this a secret, as most are afraid to try this, but I would like to see other Marauders and Sentinels prosper.

 

If you put all entry level Alacrity PvP enhancements (Quick Savant) and Alacrity augments you will reach 18.61% Alacrity. Since upgrading to top tier PvP gear will only add 35pts of Alacrity I expect to not quite break 19% once you upgrade. Let's look at that combined with Berserk and Zen in Ataru form. You gain 30% Alacrity for 6 attacks, combined with your 3% Alacrity gained from Ataru form you have reached over 51.61% Alacrity. You now do everything literally over twice as fast as everyone else, but we don't go that far.

 

Drop a couple Quick Savant Enhancements for Adept to gain approx 5% Critical Chance and Damage. This isn't as bad as it looks, because when your Critical Relic procs you will still be in the mid 30s for Crit Chance and 60s for Damage. This will also bring your Alacrity right down to around 17% and will make it a nice even(ish) 20% Alacrity with Ataru before the 30% buff.

 

Now that you are here, let's look at what this accomplishes. Your Gore and Precision windows now last twice as long to you, while your Ravage and Master Strike takes 1.5s to fully channel. This also allows you to activate Gore and Precision with the potential to attack before your opponent can even react, since (if you activate the 30% buff prior to Gore or Precision) you are able to activate two abilities before your opponent can activate one. There are other gained benefits, such as your Ravage and Master Strike DoT will tick twice as fast as well - but I will not touch on every one.

 

A couple notes I'd like to throw in are:

 

- if you get the utility to decrease your Force Choke or Force Stasis, the Alacrity is applied prior to the 15s cooldown reduction (which gives you an unbelievable cooldown on your stun).

 

- Even in Juyo form, this type of build is effective. However, take note that the more Alacrity you have causes the placement of Annihilate and Merciless Slash in your rotation to change drastically. This is due to Alacrity being factored into the total cooldown before you gain your 1.5s reduction stacks.

 

- Also, I've been messing around with defense mods in place of the power mods. I get them at the same Mastery level, which also gives the most Defense rating. My defense chance is at around 15% before any of the many buffs we gain to defense chance are applied. I also use a Defense relic in my second slot to gain around 10%. I have only lost about 150 bonus damage, with the benefit of having a much higher chance to dodge the highest damaging attacks in the game (Gunslinger/Sniper and Powertech/Vanguard burst).

 

Thank you for reading and I hope you found this helpful! If you are on Jung Ma let me know!

Edited November 22, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[RodneyMcNeely]

Very interesting!

 

Not to be too reductionist, but let me see if I have this straight: for PvP, have you noticed that this amount of Alacrity allows you to get your Gore/Precision windows in before the inevitable incoming CC?

 

If so, that's fantastic.

 

And would you suggest Alacrity at all for a Concentration/Fury build?

 

Great info, and thanks!

 

[TitusOfTides]

Very interesting!

 

Not to be too reductionist, but let me see if I have this straight: for PvP, have you noticed that this amount of Alacrity allows you to get your Gore/Precision windows in before the inevitable incoming CC?

 

If so, that's fantastic.

 

And would you suggest Alacrity at all for a Concentration/Fury build?

 

Great info, and thanks!

 

 

Most of the time yes, but I think part of that may be due to the utility that gives saber ward a 6s immunity. In objective warzones, I often try and attack from flanking positions or attack from force camo which usually gives me enough time to get a move or two in uninterrupted (because of how much "extra" time we get, I sometimes use the instant abilities first and use the channel last in the window).

 

I haven't tried it with Fury/Concentration yet, but I will get back to you on that.

[Ryuku-sama]

I've been experimenting with Alacrity and I have a few things I would like to share. I was going to keep this a secret, as most are afraid to try this, but I would like to see other Marauders and Sentinels prosper.

 

If you put all entry level Alacrity PvP enhancements (Quick Savant) and Alacrity augments you will reach 18.61% Alacrity. Since upgrading to top tier PvP gear will only add 35pts of Alacrity I expect to not quite break 19% once you upgrade. Let's look at that combined with Berserk and Zen in Ataru form. You gain 30% Alacrity for 6 attacks, combined with your 3% Alacrity gained from Ataru form you have reached over 51.61% Alacrity. You now do everything literally over twice as fast as everyone else, but we don't go that far.

 

Drop a couple Quick Savant Enhancements for Adept to gain approx 5% Critical Chance and Damage. This isn't as bad as it looks, because when your Critical Relic procs you will still be in the mid 30s for Crit Chance and 60s for Damage. This will also bring your Alacrity right down to around 17% and will make it a nice even(ish) 20% Alacrity with Ataru before the 30% buff.

 

Now that you are here, let's look at what this accomplishes. Your Gore and Precision windows now last twice as long to you, while your Ravage and Master Strike takes 1.5s to fully channel. This also allows you to activate Gore and Precision with the potential to attack before your opponent can even react, since (if you activate the 30% buff prior to Gore or Precision) you are able to activate two abilities before your opponent can activate one. There are other gained benefits, such as your Ravage and Master Strike DoT will tick twice as fast as well - but I will not touch on every one.

 

Your whole premise is false. The formula to calculate alacrity effect on times is t = t0/(1 + alac). This means with 50% alacrity, your GCD is just short of 1s. Considering Gore lasts 3s, you gain 3 GCD inside it instead of 2... This is not twice as fast, it's only 1.5 times faster.

The alacrity DR, if you stack so much you get 15%+, is so harsh you wasted about half of it. You could have gotten better crits and better chance to get said crits... In Carnage, with a rotationnal autocrit and the 6p... supercrit is also a big thing.

 

 

- if you get the utility to decrease your Force Choke or Force Stasis, the Alacrity is applied prior to the 15s cooldown reduction (which gives you an unbelievable cooldown on your stun).

 

I doubt this. Every CD reductions in the game are applied before alacrity. How do we know that? In PvE, having alacrity applied before CD reduction would have changed a lot for a few ressource starved specs. But I'll test this on a smaller scale just to see if you're right. Anyway regardless of which is true.. The CD reduction isn't that awesome.

Lets assume 20% alacrity for ease.

t = 60/(1 + 0.2) - 15 = 35s

t = (60 - 15)/(1 + 0.2) = 37.5s

And now lets assume you're willing to spend one Berzerk charge on a stun.

t = 60/(1 + 0.5) - 15 = 25s

t = (60 - 15)/(1 +0.5) = 30s

And now lets assume 37%... Berzerk and a mild alacrity build would get you there.

t = 60/(1 + 0.37) - 15 = 28.8s

t = (60 - 15)/(1 +0.37) = 32.8s

So, best case you get an extra 20s shaved of your stun... At the price of a Berzerk charge (not so bad) and a lot potential damage (rather bad). A milder alacrity gearing can net you 7% baseline.... Which means you'd end up with a stuns CD of 3.8s higher with your formula and just w.8s higher with mine.

For information, the shortest CD on a stun is 30s before alacrity.

 

- Even in Juyo form, this type of build is effective. However, take note that the more Alacrity you have causes the placement of Annihilate and Merciless Slash in your rotation to change drastically. This is due to Alacrity being factored into the total cooldown before you gain your 1.5s reduction stacks.

 

Again. No. And on this I'm sure. It has been tested with up to 15% alacrity. Alacrity affects CD's AFTER the CD reduction stacks are applied. Else the rotation would be definately ****ed.

 

- Also, I've been messing around with defense mods in place of the power mods. I get them at the same Mastery level, which also gives the most Defense rating. My defense chance is at around 15% before any of the many buffs we gain to defense chance are applied. I also use a Defense relic in my second slot to gain around 10%. I have only lost about 150 bonus damage, with the benefit of having a much higher chance to dodge the highest damaging attacks in the game (Gunslinger/Sniper and Powertech/Vanguard burst).

 

And you'd be wrong. The only spec with pure ranged burst is Marksman. Every other spec have tech/force damage in their burst... And defense does nothing on these. The only use defense have is to counter Assassinate, Takedown, Vicious Throw, Energy Burst and Ambush. Countering five ability isn't worth losing over 3k on your autocrit Vicious Throw or Blast.

[TitusOfTides]

Your whole premise is false. The formula to calculate alacrity effect on times is t = t0/(1 + alac). This means with 50% alacrity, your GCD is just short of 1s. Considering Gore lasts 3s, you gain 3 GCD inside it instead of 2... This is not twice as fast, it's only 1.5 times faster.

The alacrity DR, if you stack so much you get 15%+, is so harsh you wasted about half of it. You could have gotten better crits and better chance to get said crits... In Carnage, with a rotationnal autocrit and the 6p... supercrit is also a big thing.

 

 

 

 

I doubt this. Every CD reductions in the game are applied before alacrity. How do we know that? In PvE, having alacrity applied before CD reduction would have changed a lot for a few ressource starved specs. But I'll test this on a smaller scale just to see if you're right. Anyway regardless of which is true.. The CD reduction isn't that awesome.

Lets assume 20% alacrity for ease.

t = 60/(1 + 0.2) - 15 = 35s

t = (60 - 15)/(1 + 0.2) = 37.5s

And now lets assume you're willing to spend one Berzerk charge on a stun.

t = 60/(1 + 0.5) - 15 = 25s

t = (60 - 15)/(1 +0.5) = 30s

And now lets assume 37%... Berzerk and a mild alacrity build would get you there.

t = 60/(1 + 0.37) - 15 = 28.8s

t = (60 - 15)/(1 +0.37) = 32.8s

So, best case you get an extra 20s shaved of your stun... At the price of a Berzerk charge (not so bad) and a lot potential damage (rather bad). A milder alacrity gearing can net you 7% baseline.... Which means you'd end up with a stuns CD of 3.8s higher with your formula and just w.8s higher with mine.

For information, the shortest CD on a stun is 30s before alacrity.

 

 

 

Again. No. And on this I'm sure. It has been tested with up to 15% alacrity. Alacrity affects CD's AFTER the CD reduction stacks are applied. Else the rotation would be definately ****ed.

 

 

 

And you'd be wrong. The only spec with pure ranged burst is Marksman. Every other spec have tech/force damage in their burst... And defense does nothing on these. The only use defense have is to counter Assassinate, Takedown, Vicious Throw, Energy Burst and Ambush. Countering five ability isn't worth losing over 3k on your autocrit Vicious Throw or Blast.

 

I see your point, and thank you for correcting me. I still feel like getting one more GCD in during the window is a benefit worth considering. With approximately 10% less damage on a supercrit, I think there is a good case to be made on squeezing that extra GCD inside of the window. You may do more than you lose.

 

On the CD reduction, I'll try and get a screenshot or two tonight (as I may have been mistaken).

 

I appreciate your stance on defense chance, but I feel the overall 20% gain has allowed me to survive the extra GCD or two needed to secure the kill in many cases.

 

I'm sorry this reply is brief, I'll be happy to discuss this some more later this evening.

Edited November 23, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[Ld-Siris]

I see your point, and thank you for correcting me. I still feel like getting one more GCD in during the window is a benefit worth considering. With approximately 10% less damage on a supercrit, I think there is a good case to be made on squeezing that extra GCD inside of the window. You may do more than you lose.

 

On the CD reduction, I'll try and get a screenshot or two tonight (as I may have been mistaken).

 

I appreciate your stance on defense chance, but I feel the overall 20% gain has allowed me to survive the extra GCD or two needed to secure the kill in many cases.

 

I'm sorry this reply is brief, I'll be happy to discuss this some more later this evening.

 

You are a Marauder. Its not your job to absorb damage. Its your job to deal it. Of all classes are you more likely to die? Yes. All the matters is how many you bring down with you. And tbh all that alacrity doesn't really mean anything if you hit like a wet noodle. What the previous poster said was correct.

[TitusOfTides]

You are a Marauder. Its not your job to absorb damage. Its your job to deal it. Of all classes are you more likely to die? Yes. All the matters is how many you bring down with you. And tbh all that alacrity doesn't really mean anything if you hit like a wet noodle. What the previous poster said was correct.

 

I get what you're saying and normally I'd agree with you, but I'm losing such little damage; 10% crit and surge dropped for 20% alacrity , and ~150 bonus damage dropped for ~20% defense chance. This is such a small DPS "loss" for a larger DPS gain, and a big boost in survivability. It's safe to say approx. half the attacks in PvP are weapon damage. We're given a lot of Alacrity and Defense, it seems rather obvious to build on that.

 

Getting one extra move in that gore window makes a big difference. I'd rather get a third move in, compared to an extra 10% on the two that did get in.

 

Also worth noting, I get more return on the crit relic since my rating is lowish when it procs. This eliminates the DR most encounter on the relic, as mine hasn't reached that point of the curve. Once the relic procs, I'm right up there with the greats in crit and surge.

Edited November 24, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[AcaciaDragon]

I get what you're saying and normally I'd agree with you, but I'm losing such little damage; 10% crit and surge dropped for 20% alacrity , and ~150 bonus damage dropped for ~20% defense chance. This is such a small DPS "loss" for a larger DPS gain, and a big boost in survivability. It's safe to say approx. half the attacks in PvP are weapon damage. We're given a lot of Alacrity and Defense, it seems rather obvious to build on that.

 

Getting one extra move in that gore window makes a big difference. I'd rather get a third move in, compared to an extra 10% on the two that did get in.

 

Also worth noting, I get more return on the crit relic since my rating is lowish when it procs. This eliminates the DR most encounter on the relic, as mine hasn't reached that point of the curve. Once the relic procs, I'm right up there with the greats in crit and surge.

 

With the current Meta, you cant afford to lose damage for the sake of surviviability or getting an extra hit inside every 3rd GCD. Gore is much more efficient on targets with large quantites of armor. Its less about getting more abilities in a Gore window and more about being efficient with what you have. Taking and giving no more than what is absoluletly neccesary to make what you need to happen, happen.

 

First off Alacrity. 20% alacrity is wasted. Having the Standard 6-8% is much better for SUSTAINED damage in Carnage. If all your hits are hitting for less and less, it doesnt matter if you can hit more, a Healer will still be able to hit through it. Our advantage comes from the sudden spike in damage we do during the sustain to make the healer have an OH **** moment.

 

Why are you trying out Defense? Why are you trying to survive more? Death and PvP go hand in hand. Stop trying to solo everything. You want to live more? Make a healer friend. There are chat boxes and ways to communicate in game. You can keep your damage and get survability without grinding out defense mods or augs. Again, you arent thinking about the most efficient way you can perform. You are attempting to fit a square peg into a circle hole and you keep jamming it in and convincing yourself it fits.

 

10% crit isnt much? Go do a Parse. And switch them out. You are going to see a big difference with it. Its going to effect multiple abilities very differently, namely DB.

 

You use the Crit relic? You are adding even more unpredictability. What if it procs after you use a DB? You wont be able to use it again within the procs window to take effect, you would be reliant on a relic that cant be directly controlled, on RNG on a crit chance that is now suffering from Diminishing returns on ablities that will only get an extra limited crit chance....for 6 seconds.

[TitusOfTides]

With the current Meta, you cant afford to lose damage for the sake of surviviability or getting an extra hit inside every 3rd GCD. Gore is much more efficient on targets with large quantites of armor. Its less about getting more abilities in a Gore window and more about being efficient with what you have. Taking and giving no more than what is absoluletly neccesary to make what you need to happen, happen.

 

First off Alacrity. 20% alacrity is wasted. Having the Standard 6-8% is much better for SUSTAINED damage in Carnage. If all your hits are hitting for less and less, it doesnt matter if you can hit more, a Healer will still be able to hit through it. Our advantage comes from the sudden spike in damage we do during the sustain to make the healer have an OH **** moment.

 

Why are you trying out Defense? Why are you trying to survive more? Death and PvP go hand in hand. Stop trying to solo everything. You want to live more? Make a healer friend. There are chat boxes and ways to communicate in game. You can keep your damage and get survability without grinding out defense mods or augs. Again, you arent thinking about the most efficient way you can perform. You are attempting to fit a square peg into a circle hole and you keep jamming it in and convincing yourself it fits.

 

10% crit isnt much? Go do a Parse. And switch them out. You are going to see a big difference with it. Its going to effect multiple abilities very differently, namely DB.

 

You use the Crit relic? You are adding even more unpredictability. What if it procs after you use a DB? You wont be able to use it again within the procs window to take effect, you would be reliant on a relic that cant be directly controlled, on RNG on a crit chance that is now suffering from Diminishing returns on ablities that will only get an extra limited crit chance....for 6 seconds.

 

I have to disagree with you. What you're saying makes sense, but I think you overestimate the damage I'm giving up and undervaluing the other two stats. Obviously it's not as much damage as if I went full crit and power, but there is so much more to PvP than just doing damage (even as DPS). I can take down just about any target in a few seconds, and am happy with the amount of damage I do. I enjoy having this much Alacrity, and it gives me an edge over the opponent if I can use more abilities than they can in the same time.

 

On defense, I'm still experimenting with it but it works really well. I am alive long enough to kill or escape most of the time, and this gives many of my DCDs the extra edge to become nigh unbeatable during many of our several second defense boosts. Predation becomes even better (~45% chance on relic proc), Obfuscate becomes better on the targets it affects (ud need to stack accuracy to even have a chance to hit me with white attacks), and I'm losing less than a couple hundred pts of dmg per attack.

[AcaciaDragon]

I have to disagree with you. What you're saying makes sense, but I think you overestimate the damage I'm giving up and undervaluing the other two stats. Obviously it's not as much damage as if I went full crit and power, but there is so much more to PvP than just doing damage (even as DPS). I can take down just about any target in a few seconds, and am happy with the amount of damage I do. I enjoy having this much Alacrity, and it gives me an edge over the opponent if I can use more abilities than they can in the same time.

 

Then Parse it.

[TitusOfTides]

Then Parse it.

 

I don't have the time or resources available to parse this at this point in time (realistically the soonest I could would be in the middle of 4day weekend maybe). I was just hoping to give some insight on what's working for me, but you have the right to be sceptical (understandably, too). I'll start saving up for a dummy to parse on, but it will take me some time (I've got a few other things I've been saving credits for). If someone else with the means to parse this sooner feels obliged, I would be very excited to see their results - and I'm sure they'd be pleased with how this gearing works, too. Obviously the defense mods lower the DPS a little bit, but in a warzone more time alive is more time to deal damage. Please don't mistake me though, we are Marauders and we are here to deal lots of damage fast. I just feel like the alacrity decreases the time required while the defense chance provides me more time to do it - resulting in a lot of time netted.

 

Edit: Are you able to recommend what parsing program to use? I've never tried to parse here before and would appreciate any help you could provide.

Edited November 24, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[Ld-Siris]

I don't have the time or resources available to parse this at this point in time (realistically the soonest I could would be in the middle of 4day weekend maybe). I was just hoping to give some insight on what's working for me, but you have the right to be sceptical (understandably, too). I'll start saving up for a dummy to parse on, but it will take me some time (I've got a few other things I've been saving credits for). If someone else with the means to parse this sooner feels obliged, I would be very excited to see their results - and I'm sure they'd be pleased with how this gearing works, too. Obviously the defense mods lower the DPS a little bit, but in a warzone more time alive is more time to deal damage. Please don't mistake me though, we are Marauders and we are here to deal lots of damage fast. I just feel like the alacrity decreases the time required while the defense chance provides me more time to do it - resulting in a lot of time netted.

 

Edit: Are you able to recommend what parsing program to use? I've never tried to parse here before and would appreciate any help you could provide.

 

Starparse or parsec both are good.

[TitusOfTides]

Starparse or parsec both are good.

 

Thank you, I'll try them out tonight so by the time I've got the credits I can get the data out asap.

[Troelsen]

OP, this is the exact experiment I have been messing with and it does feel effective, at least in unranked with 190 gear. I tried enhancements with the most alac/endurance and mods with the most def/endurance. I ended up with around 15% defense and 15% alacrity baseline.

 

I recently upgraded all my gear to the baseline 204 PvP pieces and I actually do much worse now. My crit and power are much higher and I do indeed hit much harder, but I find that I get dropped very quickly by the same ACs that I'd felt competitive with before.

 

Parses won't show us anything new. They have already been done, and generally, Crit yields the best DPS while Power gives the best burst, and any deviation from that means less damage. Still, I think a great case can be made for alacrity and defense in the dynamic environment that is PvP. All that raw damage may look great on paper, but a dead Marauder deals none of it.

 

I love my Marauder but I hate glass cannons. I'm hoping to find a viable balance between damage and survivability that keeps me effective in both damage and application. If that's not possible, I'll just have to embrace the glass.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Troelsen

[TitusOfTides]

OP, this is the exact experiment I have been messing with and it does feel effective, at least in unranked with 190 gear. I tried enhancements with the most alac/endurance and mods with the most def/endurance. I ended up with around 15% defense and 15% alacrity baseline.

 

I recently upgraded all my gear to the baseline 204 PvP pieces and I actually do much worse now. My crit and power are much higher and I do indeed hit much harder, but I find that I get dropped very quickly by the same ACs that I'd felt competitive with before.

 

Parses won't show us anything new. They have already been done, and generally, Crit yields the best DPS while Power gives the best burst, and any deviation from that means less damage. Still, I think a great case can be made for alacrity and defense in the dynamic environment that is PvP. All that raw damage may look great on paper, but a dead Marauder deals none of it.

 

I love my Marauder but I hate glass cannons. I'm hoping to find a viable balance between damage and survivability that keeps me effective in both damage and application. If that's not possible, I'll just have to embrace the glass.

 

I'm glad to hear that you've tried it, and I couldn't agree more! We get so many boosts to those stats from other abilities, so it really makes the extra defense chance pay off. I'd say trust your instincts on this one.

[Subtleflame]

I did the def mods and relic in 3.0, it was a lot of fun. I did the alacrity enhancements on my TK sage and that was fun too! I could get the GCD around 1.05s with a stim, but couldn't quite make it less than a second. Do you break the 1 second mark with your marauder?

[PrincessNuri]

So I am playing around with carnage and I have to ask, do 14 alacrity augs really hit stronger than 14 critical augs in PvP? What would a fast ravage do compared to a crit ravage? I guess, what I am saying is, if I want the best damage to kill healers in PvP, should I go full crit augs or full alac augs?

[AcaciaDragon]

So I am playing around with carnage and I have to ask, do 14 alacrity augs really hit stronger than 14 critical augs in PvP? What would a fast ravage do compared to a crit ravage? I guess, what I am saying is, if I want the best damage to kill healers in PvP, should I go full crit augs or full alac augs?

 

No it doesnt. Get Alacrity to 5-7%, throw the rest into crit or power. Adjust the amount as needed to where you see the best output.

[Vodrin]

So I am playing around with carnage and I have to ask, do 14 alacrity augs really hit stronger than 14 critical augs in PvP? What would a fast ravage do compared to a crit ravage? I guess, what I am saying is, if I want the best damage to kill healers in PvP, should I go full crit augs or full alac augs?

 

Also note that pushing crit past 40% does not give great dividends. You might actually see better benefit with one or two crit augments, and the rest in power.

[PrincessNuri]

Also note that pushing crit past 40% does not give great dividends. You might actually see better benefit with one or two crit augments, and the rest in power.

 

I thought crit didn't have a diminishing return and no cap? Is 40% the limit now?

 

[TitusOfTides]

I did the def mods and relic in 3.0, it was a lot of fun. I did the alacrity enhancements on my TK sage and that was fun too! I could get the GCD around 1.05s with a stim, but couldn't quite make it less than a second. Do you break the 1 second mark with your marauder?

 

I'm not 100% sure, as I've never really timed it myself - but I do know that you will receive higher alacrity in general since 4.0 hit compared to 3.0. It might be enough to give you the extra edge you're looking for.

 

So I am playing around with carnage and I have to ask, do 14 alacrity augs really hit stronger than 14 critical augs in PvP? What would a fast ravage do compared to a crit ravage? I guess, what I am saying is, if I want the best damage to kill healers in PvP, should I go full crit augs or full alac augs?

 

I'm not sure about the exact math, but I'm at 31% crit chance and 61% crit damage currently and still over 15% alacrity. I'm using this setup on all of my characters, (we've battled on Jung Ma a few times) and I'm really happy with how its working. I think I'm only a little under what the crit purists are at (less than 10%) and I'm passing them by a mile in alacrity. I know this probably isn't exactly what you were looking for, but I'd be happy to help in any way I can. Since we're on the same server I'm always happy to duel or something.

Edited December 9, 2015 by TitusOfTides

[teclado]

You can use the training dummy on teh ziost shadow (Gav Daragon pub side), Bridge deck, combat training area. There's a bolsterizer terminal there as well (although it is currently broken and does nothing). But if you've got your pvp gear on, you can still perform a valid test on the warzone dummy there.